Advice wanted re SO's kids

[oak_tree]

I'll try to summarize: SO's STBXW is uNPD  of the covert/vulnerable persuasion (and that's a key distinction, as I'm sure y'all know! ). They separated sometime between 2.25 and 3.5 years ago. SO moved out about a year ago (they had been trying to co-parent in the same house, him living in the basement), and he now has a place of his own, and I'm often there too, especially when the kids are, we get along well There are two kids, D now 18 (16 when we met), and S teen. The kids and I got along right from the start. D and I have a lot in common, and S delights in teaching me things  The temporary agreement between the parents is that he has them one weekday evening, and every other weekend. 
Key points:

• uNPD mother gets angry seemingly without provocation. If the kids don't walk properly, don't hold their pencils correctly, whatever, and it can turn into a full-blown panic attack. I'm trying to reserve judgement here, but I believe "tantrum" may be a more appropriate word.
• During these panic attacks, she cycles between belittling her target, complete apologetic/subservient/submissiveness, and threatening to kill herself.
• For about 6 months, uNPD mother threatened to take the kids to their home country for good if SO let the kids meet me again.
• Once SO moved out, she eroded their informal but written coparenting agreement in literally almost every way (pickup/dropoff times, blackmailing, encouraging the relationship with the other parent, not allowing the kids to come over when they want, etc.)
• For a while, she kept making excuses to keep D from going to my SO's, and would sometimes call them both back because she was not feeling well. My SO would never stop them from going, of course, he just expressed his sadness and would say he will miss them.
• SO is still very much recovering from the abuse he suffered for about 18 years, and has a hard time saying anything at all about nMom around the kids. I feel like it's important not to avoid the topic, so if something comes up, I try to focus on the behavior that is acceptable and that which is unacceptable.
• nMom lies to them about SO and me. The lies range widely from details of why she never worked outside the home and how she and SO ended their marriage, to me wanting SO for his money and us trying to manipulate the kids by introducing them to my family.
• SO provides the kids with a very calm, stable, and safe environment in which they know they are always welcome. 
• D sees through SOME of her nMom's lies, but also believes a surprising amount. D told me she is not ready to hear her father's truths, but will after the divorce. She hears her Nmom's truths all the time, of course. 
• nMom worked briefly 20 years ago, and once the kids started school, kept putting off going back to work, making excuses (wait till September, in the spring when I'm feeling better, once I have a nicer car, etc.)

Here's where I struggle and would love help/advice: How do I help these kids? (I know, 18 isn't a kid...but she's still a victim)
And...How do I deal with being demonized without being able to defend myself? Sometimes I just want to yell at D (but never would, of course) "Why the heck do you believe all this bs?! Can't you see through it?!" Child protection services was called at one point (when the suicide threats became known to SO), and D said it wasn't fair we were ganging up on nMom (falling for her nMom's vulnerable npd act).  D has even said that everyone's allowed to be a little crazy. Is there any way I can help her see the light?  

Tia

[sevenyears]

Oak_tree - that sounds really difficult for you, SO and the children. Someone in another post reminded that children (and teens) are vulernable to all the manipulation. It's hard for us as adults to come Out of the FOG and it must/can be even harder for young people. You don't want to damage your relation with the kids, and you want to stay a safe place for them. It sounds like you're already doing a great job. I think if I were in your shoes, I would start by asking the kids what they think is happening and why. And, ask them if there is anything they or others can do to help their mom. I don't know how you could do that, or what you could say since you don't want them to feel their mother is their responsibility, or that they are responsible for her behavior/problems. Maybe you could watch some movies together where teens are dealing with hard problems and/or setting boundaries. That way, you're not judging their mother, but helping them discover ways of coping (hopefully in a healthy manner) with the situation.

[oak_tree]

Thanks sevenyears.
They certainly are vulnerable to it. In some ways, I get sad my SO didn't leave the his nex earlier, but trying to see the bright side (maybe?), at least he was able to spend a lot of quality time with the kids as they grew up. I can imagine this would be harder to watch if they were much younger. Then again, maybe nMom wouldn't be struggling as much if he'd left earlier? Who knows.
Questions/discussions relating to their nMom that aren't favorable are typically met with silence or avoidance.  When D does respond, there's sometimes a hint of indignation/resentment/judgement. I think they may partly believe we're trying to "steal them" from nMom, and that we're ganging up on nMom. But, when some topic is mentioned in the future, like a tantrum or some unacceptable behavior, we might try the "what do you think is happening here?" I like that open-ended question that hopefully gets them thinking, even if it's the next day, the next week, the next year.
I'd really like to get away from the idea that they're responsible in any way for their mother (so the same concern you had ). The movie idea is interesting.  I'll see if I can find something that would work for D and S.

[Penny Lane]

Hi and welcome! I'm sorry you had to be here but glad you found us. Fellow stepmom here and it sounds like DH's ex is much like your SO's - tantrums, threats, disregarding the agreement, etc.

I suggest taking a very light touch with them, and in fact try as hard as you can to avoid anything about their mom that seems critical. If you bring her up, you should be speaking about her in a positive or at the very least neutral way. If they bring her up, you should be supportive and speak kindly about her (not that you have to agree with her actions or pretend to, just that you can't be mean about her when you do it).

Divorce is really hard on kids and it's so much harder when they feel like they're being torn between both parents. You know the ex is trying to make the kids choose her. And where did they get the idea that you're trying to steal them? From her, almost certainly. At your house (or your SO's house) you want the message to be that they do not have to choose, that they are free to love both their mom and their dad. You don't want them to feel like they have to take your side because that just puts them right back in the middle. Even though you are right!

This will lay the foundation for healthy emotional growth. If the kids are spending their energy trying to choose between their mom and their dad, they're not going to use their critical thinking skills and make decisions for themselves. And that's the ultimate goal - you want them to have the tools to make good decisions around their mom and in all areas of their lives. As adults they might end up deciding they need to go NC or to limit their interactions - but that should not be your goal. In fact, my hope is that eventually my stepkids grow up to be so healthy with such good boundaries that they can have a relationship with their mother, and enjoy the good things about their relationship with her! But I would support them no matter what relationship they want to have with her.

That doesn't mean that you can't do anything to help, though! There are lots of things you can do. Basically you want to support their journey towards growing up to be independent, critical thinkers who have the confidence in themselves to go out in the world and set boundaries with other people. Basically in the areas where you think she is stunting their growth (like, PDs really don't like kids to have critical thinking, because it means the kids will assess their lies), you work on bolstering that. You don't ever have to mention their mom, you just help them grow.

Sevenyears' suggestion to watch tv together is a really good one. We spend a lot of time talking about manipulation and lying on shows. My stepkids are younger, maybe teenagers wouldn't like this so much. But we ask questions. Like, do you think that character is telling the truth? Do you think she should believe him? What do you think he wants her to do? And sometimes make observations, like, I've noticed that when people angrily say "don't you trust me?" like that character did, they're usually trying to distract you from their lying. So that's nothing about their mom, I'm not talking about her, it was prompted by something else. But ... maybe that's something their mom does sometimes. And maybe they'll think, hm, this is what PL was describing. I wonder if mom is lying? And when they catch her, which they often do, it will stick in their minds. They'll start to connect the pattern of manipulation and lies.

There are lots of ways you can help them build their critical thinking skills. Those open ended questions you mentioned - golden. Encourage them to make decisions for themselves - with older teenagers they should be making their own decisions anyway. Foster independence by teaching them to do chores that they will need when they move out. And help them learn emotional skills by encouraging them to say no, to peers, even to you and SO (when it's appropriate). This will serve them well in all areas of life, not just with their mom.

If the kids bring up really egregious things that she does, or areas where your values and hers obviously differ, I don't think there's harm in acknowledging "I handle that kind of situation differently" or whatever. But again, REALLY light touch. And the attitude is "different house, different rules" or "mom and dad will have to discuss that." Similarly, if she lies, you should correct it. But don't focus on the lie. Focus on what you have direct knowledge of. "Hm, I don't know why your mom said that I'm the reason your parents split up. What I do know is that I met your dad long after they split up and that I would never date someone who's already in a relationship." (this is a real example and I really had to bite my tongue to avoid saying AND SHE LEFT YOUR DAD FOR ANOTHER MAN LONG BEFORE HE MET ME).

This attitude especially works for really hard things. You don't shy away from telling the kids the truth (in an age appropriate way) but only if it will help their understanding of the situation. We've faced similar things to the CPS call, where the kids were hearing a VERY skewed version of the situation from their mom about something that they really shouldn't have to worry about at all. You can explain it without sounding like you're blaming their mom: "CPS is there to make sure that kids are safe and that parents have everything they need to make sure they're good parents. Your parents should ultimately be on the same side - your side. Calling CPS isn't a punishment, and we really hope that they can give your mom the resources she needs to be the best parent she can be. It's obviously a stressful time but we're all going to get through it."

It's a hard slog and it's not as satisfying as saying "what your mom did there was inappropriate." But I think in the long run the light touch is more effective. It teaches them how to assess other people's actions and it sort of inoculates them against other PD behavior. And it sets them up to make good (if hard) decisions about their mom in the long run.

It sounds like you are a wonderful presence in these kids' lives and I hope it is as rewarding for you as it is for me! Don't forget to focus on your own relationship with them, BM-free, and just enjoy the relationship. That, too, will be really good for them in the long run.

[Boat Babe]

 

[oak_tree]

Thank you so much, Penny Lane! So much great advice. For the most part, we do step lightly (SO barely touches the ground). Even when I might say that something was unacceptable (I'll avoid that now), it was very much focused on the behaviour, not the person, and I'd try to follow it up with something positive as well. And for clarity, the topic of their mother's bad behaviour rarely (!) comes up, and SO and I are not the ones to mention it. Also, based on our behaviour and theirs (for the most part), it's very clear to them that they are always welcome at SO's, and that he has no desire to make them chose, and I will make sure we keep reinforcing that   Tbh, our time together sometimes feels a bit like all four of us are in blissful denial of the other side of their lives.

"As adults they might end up deciding they need to go NC or to limit their interactions - but that should not be your goal."
Totally agreed. I wish their nMom could find her calling and not sit at home with little to do but stew   All I want for them is two healthy parents.

I really liked your CPS example. While that particular episode is over for now, if the court gets involved, some of the same reasoning could apply. (as in, the court is involved to make sure your parents have the tools necessary and are both in a position to be the best possible parents for you, etc)

I loved the inoculation metaphor, that brought the point home to me very well.

I have a couple of specific questions (for you or anyone, of course):
1) When SD specifically tells me about some lie she herself told BM in order to prevent a meltdown, how should I react? On the one hand, I don't want to encourage dishonesty, but on the other, I understand that she's just trying to make her own life and her brother's as peaceful as possible, and I see that tightrope.  But she's also enabling her mother. And the lie itself may be harmful/disrespectful to a 3rd party - I don't want to encourage that either.
Something just occurred to me: What about me saying something like "I believe your father used to try to avoid contentious topics to avoid the panic attacks", and just leave it at that. I see pros and cons. Any thoughts?
 
2) I would have a really hard time if SD (SS is unlikely to mention anything) implied her mother was a victim of anything from my SO, when the reality (as I see it) is that my SO will be recovering from her abuse for years.  I suppose I can just gently remind her that when she's ready to hear her father's truths, she can approach him?

Thanks, all!  Have I mentioned how glad I am I was directed to this website?!?!

[Penny Lane]

Good questions!

1. With my stepkids' mom, my instinct is to just tell them how to handle stuff. But what I've realized is, even though I've seen it from afar I really have no idea what it's like to grow up in her house. The calculation of what's acceptable/what's the right thing to do really changes based on factors that I'm not even aware of. Like, how bad really is the meltdown they're trying to prevent?

Instead, what I've arrived at is that they should have all the tools they need to come to a good decision. So that means working with them on how other people's feelings aren't your responsibility and where to find the line between setting boundaries vs being mean. We talk about lying and our philosophy about lying, even down to the nitty gritty like I am very anti-lying basically in any circumstance but other people think it's OK to tell white lies, and what is a white lie and what isn't. Why exactly lying can be harmful, in your case to the third parties. Maybe start with some of those open ended questions, how did you feel about that? Do you see any downsides? And then go into what you see as the upsides or downsides.

That helps them think through what they want to do and how they would handle it. The reality is that they will be having to handle their mom for the rest of her life, unless they go NC. So they need to have a framework for how to decide how to handle her tantrums and what are and aren't appropriate responses.

Depending on how receptive they are (and maybe this comes later in the relationship, when they've grown more open about their mom's actions) you could even explicitly say "I generally don't think lying is a good thing to do, and I hope you don't get in the habit of lying to people. But I understand you're in a really tough spot with no good options here. I do want you to consider that if your mom believes you, and acts on that information, it could have negative consequences for (third party)." TBH I probably wouldn't say this to my stepkids except when DSS13 is in one of his phases where he's really questioning everything and trying to figure out what to do about his mom (these come and go). But it's an option if it feels right.

2. Open ended questions again! What do you think about that? Does that sound like your dad? Does your dad do that to other people? And once you hear what SHE thinks, I think you add additional context that you know: I've never seen your dad act that way toward me or anyone else. I have seen your mom yell at your dad (whatever other specific behaviors). It's important to me that your dad treat everyone with respect, including your mom, and that's what I've seen him do.

In our case, the kids don't repeat "he abused me" type allegations. It's more like, "he's not giving me enough money" and "your dad will never work things out with me, it just has to be his way" and stuff like that. These are a lot easier than abuse allegations, I think. Because you can explain the context of the specific interaction she's complaining about. And when the kids have heard the full story, their dad's side becomes a lot more obvious. Your suggestion about leaving it to her when she wants to hear her dad's truth - that's very good too.

The other thing is that if you know what mom is alleging, you can sort of counteract it even if they don't repeat it verbatim. We do this in general ways, like I will compliment their dad in front of them for being so (active in their lives, helpful around the house, hardworking) - all the ways that she likes to tear him down. And we do it in specific ways, like, we explain how we set boundaries around everyone (not just her) and if someone yells at us or is unpleasant towards us, we're less likely to want to interact with them in the same way again.

A couple other points:
Court was exactly where I was drawing from in my own experience when talking about CPS. Every so often BM does stuff that is so egregious that DH feels like he has to take her to court. No one likes this, obviously. But the kids hear her side of it which is ... grossly misrepresentative of what happens and what court is, and that basically forces us to explain the reality (you could say DH's side but I don't even get into what he thinks or wants - I try to just stick to the facts of what court is and isn't and the possible outcomes, not why he chose to take her to court).

I do think that saying her behavior is unacceptable is going a bit too far. But I do think it's important to acknowledge that there are serious differences that the kids are seeing between households. My point is you're on the right track. A lot of stuff she does that's more minor, we do let slide altogether. But if the kids repeat that she's done something really egregious (lying, stealing, treating service workers badly are things that come up), I feel like sometimes they're  looking for some guidance on how to perceive it. I try to acknowledge the difference in as gentle of a way possible. "We handle things differently than she does" or "that's not what we would have done" or "I've found that yelling at people makes them less likely to help me." Or more open ended questions about, what do they think about that? Your point still comes across but it is less likely to make them feel like they have to defend their mom. AND it often gets their critical thinking going. You're presenting them two viewpoints, then THEY have to think about the merits of each?

We do correct them if they repeat inaccurate information or understandings from BM. Like, "why didn't you do X?" "Well I did." Or "mom can't afford (activity) but dad can because he makes more money." "Well actually your dad makes less money than your mom, but he spends it differently." Etc.

And finally, one more thing that I meant to mention in my first post is that one really great way that you can counteract BM's actions is through your own actions. I've always read that kids will learn more through what you do than through what you tell them to do. So just the fact that you're in their lives, not throwing tantrums, letting them explore who they really are - that alone is huge! Bonus points if you can talk them through WHY you behave the way you do. Another really helpful thing for them to see is you setting boundaries with other people. Presumably these teens act like teens sometimes - well, PDs act like teens too. So if they are throwing a tantrum or being manipulative or whatever, the way you respond to them gives them a blueprint for how they could respond to their mom who's acting the same way. Stay calm, call out the behavior without calling them out, ask for a break so everyone can calm down and use your words about what you'd like to see in the future. They probably will not like it BUT they will see that they can respond to their mom without matching her emotional intensity.

I'm glad you found us and the kids are very lucky to have you. Spending time in blissful denial of their mom sounds great, actually, and that reprieve from her might be exactly what they need a lot of the time. Having that space to grow and just be themselves is so important for their development, and it's so great that you can provide that.

[oak_tree]

Thanks, Penny, lots of gold in there.  Be a healthy place for them to be. Open questions when the situation arises.

We had a great weekend. Just one hiccup, and that's that SD wanted to do a specific 2-hr activity with BM one afternoon (no problem), and didn't end up coming back because she was tired (we'd been having a great time, afaik). It's the kind of thing where on its own, it's nothing, but when you know the history and context, you just wonder if the manipulation was happening.

Side note: BM has a shock collar for their dog. SD is not a fan, and neither am I. I'm interested in people's experience with pet punishment with people with PDs, especially NPD.