No feelings for my mother

[Boat Babe]

I'm low ish contact with my waify, damaged mother. I'm ok with it just as it is and she is too (Well she'd ideally like me to move next door to her, but doesn't labour the point anymore). Just got off the phone to arrange meeting for a coffee and we did the "I love you" thing at the end. I put the phone down and thought, I don't think I do you know. She was so bloody difficult, for so many years. You wouldn't think that love could wear out, but it does. I feel deep compassion for her and we are forever entangled but I don't feel any love. I can't stand more than an afternoon on in her company even though she's nowhere near as toxic as before. Just unbelievably draining. My mum can drain for England.

Oh, thank goodness for Out of the FOG where I can have a little vent and you'll get it. 

[Seven]

Growing up none us children were given hugs or told we were loved.  Ever. In actuality I've never in my life ever heard my parents tell even each other they loved the other.

It was only since 2013 did she start saying it after my dad passed.  And I feel the only reason she says it is so she can hear it back. And if she does say it, it's only because we've done something for her, not for who we are as people.

When I was pregnant at 18 I vowed that my kids would know I loved them and meant it.  Every phone call is ended with "I love you" and lately it's been coming from their mouths first, which is absolutely heartening.

Love wears out.  It certainly does, hence divorces (and low/no contact)

[Free2Bme]

BoatBabe,

It is good that you have this clarity about this relationship.  I imagine it is not what you would want with your M.  Maybe at some point in the past, you had to transition to this place to preserve yourself. 

Although not ideal, maybe this indifference to M will make things easier as she approaches the end of her life and may not be as difficult when that time comes.

I'm always thinking about what I would regret after my M passes.  I don't want to end up with internal conflict, this can be a form of self care.  So, it is good that you have retained compassion for your M. 

Take care, and try to keep calls/visits short for your sake!

[Happypants]

I understand where you're coming from, BoatBabe.  I personally go between thinking that MC is so conditioned that my feelings have followed suit, or that having feelings usually ends in pain so my protective self says "nope, not going there".  I'm just allowing the clarity that i now have to allow me to be an observer and see what that leads to without forcing anything.  That's not to say i don't feel sadness or compassion, but when there's no trust there's no channel for reciprocity. 

[Hepatica]

Boat Babe, the idea that love can wear out must be a truth. What a great way to put it.

I just can't find the action part of love anymore inside of me toward my mother and father. I have this mixture of disillusionment and compassion and sorrow. I do have compassion for them because they are "of an age" where people did not self-reflect or have self-help communities. I get that this is truly a loss for them.

But for me to be actively involved with them with the actual feeling of love there would have to be something that heals those wounds that act as warnings to me. Reminders that I will be hurt again. I do think people can be terrible flawed and their children can forgive and love them, but it has to come with some sort of epiphany on the part of the parent. A true, I'm so so sorry, I didn't know. An acceptance of what they did as wrong and damaging to us. There is none of that with my parents and they continue to behave in ways that drain and disturb my soul.

I have an easier time feeling compassion toward my mother for some reason bc she did show me caring at moments in my early childhood. And she rarely attacked me. But she attacked my father and sister whenever the mood came over her and it was ugly. She never had remorse about it either. Never.

I can't stand the lack of remorse and the holding it all inside and never speaking of it. I can't stand that refusal to be humble and say the words that need to be said.

The natural act of loving has grown exhausted in me. I feel quite starved that way, when it comes to my parents. And yet they want to take from me still.

I have very little feelings left now, except this yearning to heal myself and find some sort of passion for living and, peace and joy, as an act of service to my own child, as an example that healing is possible. My focus is on him and myself and my husband, because there seems to be nothing left with my parents and sister.

I do feel great sadness about it all. But I hope one day I'll begin to feel the peace and joy build and take on a greater place in my well-being.

[SunnyMeadow]

Boat Babe, add me to this list. I have no feelings for my mother either. She's an unpleasant woman I have the misfortune to be around from time to time. I go over to see them occasionally out of obligation. I've said 'ily' to get off the phone, out of habit and probably obligation too. I don't love her. She says it to me also and I know she doesn't feel love for me. I'm just the last one left.

It's comforting to know that other's feel the same. It seems to go against societal norms to feel nothing for your mother. You say, love can wear out....so true! It has in my case too.

[moglow]

I'm unfortunately another - my feelings towards mother these days are ambivalent at best. I'm not angry or in tears over her anymore, but neither do I have any drive to see or speak with her. So it's an improvement of sorts, where at least I'm not constantly broken up inside. I'm not sure I ever loved her or understood what love even is, there's certainly been no consistent expression of it over the years or reassurance that I'm loved and accepted simply for who I am. And I unfortunately learned that from her, so it's reciprocal.

Boat Babe, how did you learn to love and feel that deep compassion you speak of, in spite of all you'd known from her? Did you have others who stepped into that abyss for/with you?

[Sneezy]

Same here - my feelings for my mom are ambivalent.  I think mostly I feel sorry for her.  She has never felt content in her own skin, and is driven by anxiety and fear.  What an awful way to live.  But I have come to accept that I can't fix her.  I was very close to my grandmother (my mother's mother) and so sometimes when it is difficult to deal with my mom, I think about my grandmother and I do it for her.  I don't know why my mom ended up how she did, and I'm not sure what role my grandmother did or didn't play.  But I loved her and I will look out for her daughter (i.e. my mom) the best I can for her sake.  Sometimes that's the best I can do.

[IRedW77]

Boat Babe, I'd like to subscribe to your newsletter please! I have my own waify damaged mother and keep low contact as well. She too seems totally ok with the distance, but would move right into my garage if I invited her to. If I don't contact her she doesn't contact me unless she needs something specific. I can go months and it's like she just forgets I exist until I contact her. And like yours she has also mellowed A LOT with age.

She is still very hard to deal with, but I'm the only person who can manage her. My wife loses her sh** if she has to be alone with her for 5 minutes. I always just tell her that you just need to know how to deal with her. But in fairness, you need to know how to deal with her AND be the central figure in her life. *Golden/ all-good-children raise your hands* You're right about the drain though. It just occurred to me that I'm constantly yawning whenever I spend any time with my mother!

I don't know that I'd say I feel compassion for her. I feel entanglement, obligation, and responsibility. I just read Lawson's Understanding the Borderline Mother. Sometimes it felt like she was reading my dysfunction's secret diaries. One thing I highlighted is "As adults, the Waif's children may become either emotionally detached or consumed with worry." So I think this must be common.

I feel like when I started learning to "manage" her as a teen I just cut that emotional tether. But it could be that I just never formed normal emotions in the first place. I feel like I'm not qualified to know the difference. I don't feel much of anything towards her, good or bad, beyond frustration and exhaustion. Moglow said "ambivalent" and that's maybe close.

What bothers me about my own mother is just how unnecessary it all is. It's like a failure to differentiate good attention versus bad attention. If she'd just left well enough alone she could have had the unconditional love of a healthy child. It's like slapping someone every time you want to have a conversation. You would have gotten their attention just as easily if you'd just started talking. You didn't need to slap them. You got their attention, but now they're hurt and a bit resentful. Eventually they'll either break and start slapping everyone else or get themselves away from you.

I don't feel like I really know for sure what love or happiness feel like. Maybe I feel them, maybe I don't. Maybe I just have some decent approximation. I definitely know that I struggle with empathy. Some of that may be a defense mechanism and some of that may be a lack of proper modeling—like oh so many other social skills.

I struggle with this with my own kids. They're still little so they fall and get bumps and bruises. Usually I just say "oops" or "crash" and they laugh and brush it off, but if they're actually hurt I feel lost. My instinct (thanks mom) is to look for how they caused the injury and tell them not to do it again—gotta lay that blame! But I'm aware that's not what you do with a crying child. All I can do is try to comfort them, but part of me always feels like that's deficient or hollow and that somehow they'll feel emptiness or insecurity coming through.

"I love you" is also a very touchy topic for me. I think that my MIL taught my wife to overcompensate for things in her life by saying ILY all the damn time. My wife has always said it too much for my comfort. When she says ily I always distance myself in my reply. I say "I love 'pet-name'" instead. I do the same with my kids.

I actually had a recent talk with my wife about this with our kids. My daughter thinks that ILY is just the proper addendum to "bye" so she'll say it to anyone and everyone. I explained that what made me uncomfortable was that she was obligating others to respond. That hadn't occurred to my wife.

My mom is obviously a mess, but my dad was actually a great role model—for everything except emotions. It also probably didn't help that my mom had majority custody of me from the time I was little. I hear a little strain in my dad's voice every time he has to say it back to  my daughter—he feels it—but saying it isn't comfortable for him. He's good about acknowledging and demonstrating affection, but he's not ok with speaking the words.

What Sneezy said about taking care of his mother for his grandmother has some resonance for me as well. I deal with my mom for the sake of my kids. They can have a (mostly) normal relationship with her because they only get small doses. They get to experience all the good parts of what she was as a mother and they actually love her.

Unfortunately that gives my mom back some small bit of power. She babysits for us very occasionally, and we don't have anyone else to do it. If there's an emergency or an appointment where we need to be away from the kids I have to get my mom.

Very rarely, like once every other month or two (pre-pandemic) my wife and I would go out and do something for ourselves like go to a movie or out to dinner. When we do get away my wife is on edge because she doesn't fully trust my mom with the kids and I'm guilty and worried about getting home on time. 

She doesn't help out of a maternal or grandmaternal instinct. Every request has to be carefully planned and gamed out in advance. I can't ask for too many hours, or hours at the wrong time of day, or visits more than once a week. And sometimes she's just unavailable for a few weeks or a month because she's "not feeling well."

If we go out to eat I bring her back food. If we don't go out to eat I have to make a special trip to stock her weird food in the house. If we're coming back after dark I have to pick her up and drive her home so she doesn't have to drive in the dark. It doesn't seem that bad until I actually write half of it out.

She does care about her grandkids in her way, but it's very clear that she doesn't experience any sense of obligation towards them. She enjoys spending time with them, but if I don't set it up for her she never sees them. But she does entertain them and they're always excited to see her, so on we go.

[WinterStar]

I'm at the anger stage with my waify walking wound of a mother. I spent so many years trying to help her. And she continues to act like a helpless abandoned puppy. I've completely worn myself out trying to anticipate what she wants, interpret her smoke signals, hear all of her sob stories over and over again, and reassure her. She used to have me reassuring her that she was a good mother, and I felt obligated to do it because I didn't want to hurt her feelings. I was protecting her from her own failure.

I am still so burned out. I burnt myself out on my mom and then tried to start a life of my own while in burn out with the giant weight of caring for my mom still on my shoulders. I now have four kids and have spent their whole lives trying to figure out how to get whole enough that I don't snap at them and that I have the energy to meet their needs.

And it was still never quite good enough. I never did spend quite enough time with my mom. Or read her mind well enough. Or memorize her ever changing list of preferences perfectly. Did you know she's gluten free now? The gluten really bothers her. But she still eats cake. ???

And I'm angry. Angry that she has wasted so many hours of my life because she wouldn't deal with her own. Angry that she stole my energy from myself and my children. It's incredibly unfair. And now she's unhappy with me and complaining to my brother that I hurt her feelings because I don't do enough for her or spend enough time with her. I've tried explaining that I have kids, a husband, a job, a house, my own interests. She doesn't get it.

The anger has led to a deep well of detachment. The angrier I have become, the less I give a darn what she thinks. She's actually hurt that I'm not doing more for her during Covid when I have three kids who are remote learning, a new baby, a job. If it's not about me now, if she can't be a supportive presence now, she never will be. And I'm so gosh darn tired and she's so draining that I don't want to see her or talk with her. Honestly, it feels permanent. I think I'd be happy to never interact with her again.

[IRedW77]

Or read her mind well enough. Or memorize her ever changing list of preferences perfectly. Did you know she's gluten free now? The gluten really bothers her. But she still eats cake. ???

Hahaha OMG the gluten! Anything but the gluten! The horror!

I haven't been here long, but I have been consistently amazed how many particularly specific things we all end up having in common. 

I literally had a line in a post about my mom switching from gluten free to chocolate cake!

It's such a perfect thing for them to latch onto. It's impossible for anyone around them to disprove. They can assign any symptoms they feel like to the gluten intake. They can convince themselves that going gluten free is helping them with any minor improvement of literally any kind in their lives. It's been trendy for a few years and in the news so people know about it.

Celiac is a legit disease for the small minority that actually have it, so other people have to take you seriously.

You can bully waitstaff about getting all the gluten things out of your dinner. Then you can complain when they get one tiny thing wrong. You can even ask inane questions to supermarket employees that they can't possibly answer and then be able to complain about that. You can lecture strangers about how much better they'd feel if they just put down the toast.

The possibilities are endless! It's such a goldmine for them.

For my mother it started with being a pain in everyone's ass because she decided she had to be totally and completely gluten free for 6 months to see any benefits. If she had any gluten at all she'd have to start the clock all over again. Then she couldn't believe how much it changed her life. Then everyone was sensitive to gluten and humans weren't built to be able to digest it properly, so obviously I needed to join her (no f-in chance). Then she just went quiet about it.

Now she supposedly avoids gluten as much as she can, but it's just fine to eat cake and bread and pizza and whatever if it's in my house. We'll just let all the gluten free stuff I had to buy for when she babysat rot where it is.

You just have to laugh at all the ridiculous self-contradiction and logical inconsistency so you don't lose your own mind.

[WinterStar]

IRedW77,

Thank you do very much for articulating so perfectly exactly what happens with PDs and food allergies. My mom has been "allergic" to certain foods for over 30 years. Every so often she adds a new one to the list. One, I'm pretty sure is just a food she doesn't like. Another is a fruit that she got sick after eating. She'd eaten it for many years without incident but because it was one of the last things she ate before she got sick, it must have been that. And it must have been an allergy rather than just a bad piece of fruit.

The most bizarre one is mayo. I asked her what part of mayo she's allergic to: the oil, the eggs or the vinegar. She said she's allergic to those items mixed together. Um, okay... It's maddening. Thank you for getting it. It makes me feel less crazy.

[SunnyMeadow]

And I'm angry. Angry that she has wasted so many hours of my life because she wouldn't deal with her own. Angry that she stole my energy from myself and my children. It's incredibly unfair. And now she's unhappy with me and complaining to my brother that I hurt her feelings because I don't do enough for her or spend enough time with her. I've tried explaining that I have kids, a husband, a job, a house, my own interests. She doesn't get it.

The anger has led to a deep well of detachment. The angrier I have become, the less I give a darn what she thinks. She's actually hurt that I'm not doing more for her during Covid when I have three kids who are remote learning, a new baby, a job. If it's not about me now, if she can't be a supportive presence now, she never will be. And I'm so gosh darn tired and she's so draining that I don't want to see her or talk with her. Honestly, it feels permanent. I think I'd be happy to never interact with her again.

Another post I could've written! They ARE SO ALIKE!  I'm angry at this ridiculous personality disorder today! Why should they have the power to do this crap over and over?? I'm in the 'I don't give a darn' stage as well. After years and years of this stuff, it makes sense.

This is who I see when I think of my mother now    . It's always the whining how little people DO for them.

Recently I told a new friend that the only person who causes me any stress is my mother. No one else in my life causes me stress or anxiety. She was shocked but listened and replied "that must be so hard to deal with". I was happy she didn't do the but she's your motherrrr thing. Not surprisingly I developed an autoimmune disease made worse by stress and anxiety. Gee, wonder why I developed that after a horrendously stressful time with her? 

I really wish these people would have gotten a "sweet as pie, nicest people in the world" disorder instead!

**editing to add** I love your "waify walking wound of a mother" description. I'm going to be thinking this in my head the next time I see mine!

[IRedW77]

Um, okay... It's maddening. Thank you for getting it. It makes me feel less crazy.

Thank you too WS 

It's very validating to share experiences so similar that they're even identical.  You know up is not down—you know it! And yet you've been raised with someone that says that up is whatever direction they say it is.

This happens with treatments for all the ailments as well. Anything that actually relieves symptoms or helps problems my mom develops a "sensitivity" to.

If I say "gee mom, when I have a fever Tylenol works really well for me, maybe you should try that". The answer almost invariably is "oh yes, that used to work great for me, but I developed a sensitivity so I can't take it anymore".  They need to have control over the effects that things have on them so that they can be as ill as suits their mental needs.

They love things that no one else can see as well. Migraines, fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue syndrome. Those things are real for some people, and maybe they are for the PD, but maybe they're not. There's just no way for anyone else to know. It could even be that they are real BECAUSE they are real to them.

Whether or not they have the disease if they experience the symptoms it doesn't matter. And whether or not they actually have the symptoms doesn't matter if they can convince anyone (including themselves) that they do. We just can't know and it's absolutely maddening. 

I think I'm going to to start another thread about this later, because elements of it are probably universal.

[Pepin]

And I'm angry. Angry that she has wasted so many hours of my life because she wouldn't deal with her own. Angry that she stole my energy from myself and my children. It's incredibly unfair. And now she's unhappy with me and complaining to my brother that I hurt her feelings because I don't do enough for her or spend enough time with her. I've tried explaining that I have kids, a husband, a job, a house, my own interests. She doesn't get it.

The anger has led to a deep well of detachment. The angrier I have become, the less I give a darn what she thinks. She's actually hurt that I'm not doing more for her during Covid when I have three kids who are remote learning, a new baby, a job. If it's not about me now, if she can't be a supportive presence now, she never will be. And I'm so gosh darn tired and she's so draining that I don't want to see her or talk with her. Honestly, it feels permanent. I think I'd be happy to never interact with her again.

Another post I could've written! They ARE SO ALIKE!  I'm angry at this ridiculous personality disorder today! Why should they have the power to do this crap over and over?? I'm in the 'I don't give a darn' stage as well. After years and years of this stuff, it makes sense.

This is who I see when I think of my mother now    . It's always the whining how little people DO for them.

Recently I told a new friend that the only person who causes me any stress is my mother. No one else in my life causes me stress or anxiety. She was shocked but listened and replied "that must be so hard to deal with". I was happy she didn't do the but she's your motherrrr thing. Not surprisingly I developed an autoimmune disease made worse by stress and anxiety. Gee, wonder why I developed that after a horrendously stressful time with her? 

I really wish these people would have gotten a "sweet as pie, nicest people in the world" disorder instead!

**editing to add** I love your "waify walking wound of a mother" description. I'm going to be thinking this in my head the next time I see mine!

Yeah, I had to jump in on this as well....really hit a nerve....except that this would be about PDmil.  This is a woman who has kept DH from his wife and kids through her waifiness.  Make no mistake that she complains about anyone to others who doesn't do enough for her: they don't call me; I haven't heard from them; they don't visit; they are in touch with so and so but not me; I don't like their spouse; I don't like the other in-laws; blah, blah, blah......

But.  I see that DH is starting to become more aware of this, even though he is the designated golden child.  Some of the things she has started saying lately are ridiculous.  And her waifiness level has been moved up several notches as well.  DH isn't sure how much longer she will be able to live in her home.....and this is positive news.  The sooner she can move into AL, the sooner we can all exhale. 

DH says PDmil used to be smart as a whip and he doesn't understand what is happening.....I obviously wasn't around for that part of her life so I cannot comment on whether or not that is true.  What I really think it is though is that DH is running out of ideas on how to manage her.  He is getting tired.  And it is actually DH that was the smart one all along operating on her behalf.  But like any golden child (in my opinion) he is going to find himself up against a wall because he never was given the foundation to manage himself.  He gets angry a lot more when things don't go right; he behaves from a place of arrogance when he thinks he is being super hero.  He is yo-yo-ing around with his behavior....all because of his mother playing tougher games with him.  She constantly is changing the rules to meet her agenda.

It has been painful for me to watch this unfold over the years.  It isn't possible to have feelings for someone when the relationship is all about servicing....that is a business instead.  I never had feelings for my own father.  Cut him out of my life years ago when it became clear that he only saw me as a servant and a punching bag.

[IRedW77]

But like any golden child (in my opinion) he is going to find himself up against a wall because he never was given the foundation to manage himself.  He gets angry a lot more when things don't go right; he behaves from a place of arrogance when he thinks he is being super hero.

It has been painful for me to watch this unfold over the years.  It isn't possible to have feelings for someone when the relationship is all about servicing....that is a business instead.  I never had feelings for my own father.  Cut him out of my life years ago when it became clear that he only saw me as a servant and a punching bag.

Arrogance is a defense mechanism. The only way to feel better about yourself, or that you can even deserve to be in the same room as everyone else is sometimes to be arrogant.

You can feel that everyone else has some grip on normalcy (or some other thing you want to quantify), but you don't. If you feel like you don't fit in and everyone around you has or has access to something you don't a logical (the only?) defense is to feel like you have something that no one else has. You need to be better than anyone just to feel like you can keep up with them at everything else you know (or feel) you don't have.

It's also a natural move for the golden child to make. PD parent has plastered everything that they feel is good about themselves onto their child. They've also assigned all the keys to their own healing, safety, happiness (and whatever else) to the golden child. She's been telling him he's a special hero since he was born. So also of course he's arrogant. He's been told he should be. 

He has all this virtue assigned that isn't his, so he feels like any virtue that he does have of his own also isn't his. So he's told he deserves to be arrogant and he defends himself from his perceived failings with arrogance.

Even if he cuts off his feelings, it's still hard not to serve the PD parent. He's been conditioned not to get validation any other way. No matter how frustrating it is there's still an obligation that only you (you've been told) can meet.

I'm curious, does he know about his mother's PD? If he can't see it himself it's hard to fix.

[ShyTurtle]

I can't stand more than an afternoon on in her company even though she's nowhere near as toxic as before. Just unbelievably draining.

I feel this way about my mother. Some people ask me why I don't make peace with my mother. I have to explain that although after all of the horrible, damaging things she did to me as a child, sure, I have made peace within myself for that. She doesn't acknowledge any of it, but I have some level of peace within. The thing is that she drains the crap out of me. She just doesn't know how to not dump on me emotionally and be so incredibly pitiful and needy in my presence. That's mainly why I have now severely limited my exposure to her. I love myself more than to expose myself to that toxicity.

....And I'm pretty sure I don't love her either. In fact, I don't think I ever have. Any experiences of love I have had in my life, I have had to discover on my own because she was a really bad role model in that department.

[daughter]

For me, I accepted a great deal of malevolence and emotional abuse from my overtly Nmom, and a lot of cajoling "poor me" excuse-making and "but I've got it worse!" demands for my compliance with her unreasonable demands from my enabler covert "victim of your mom" Ndad. I think it's understandable, and actually healthy, to emotionally disconnect from a disordered parent - even if you remain otherwise in contact.

I survived my abusive parents by not feeling "love" towards them, as self-protection, even while I was dutiful and obedient.  I disguised my feelings for a long time, even while in therapy, and quite aware of dysfunctional family dynamic. It took several therapists' validation, and several years of "baby step" disengagement, usually resulting in enormous parental blow-back, before I finally chose to be NC. By then, I was still sharing all holidays, all birthdays, and many weekends with my parents, and yet disinherited, constantly belittled and smeared even while 95% compliant. Last therapist, who I still occasionally check-in, finally convinced me that NC was warranted.

I had already disconnected emotionally for many years, but still feared my parents' rage.  That's not "love".  It's necessary for us to "not love" those who cannot, will not, demonstrate love, much less empathy, kindness, and simple regard for our emotional well-being.

This is a bit of a trigger for me, because my parents still practice a milder form of this demand/disregard/disdain crazymaking upon my adult children, who remain in intermittent contact with their grandparents, and used as pawns to "get back at" NC me and DH.   What they've said and done to my kids, post-NC, precludes any future reconciliation. No, I won't be present at their funerals, or death-bed scenes.

Our emotional health is paramount. I wish I'd instituted NC when our kids were little, to protect them. FOO family dynamics and my dysfunctional SG role here was readily apparent to our little kids. But I still soldiered on, out of fear of my parents' absolute control and unfettered narcisstic rage, and my brainwashed sense of dutiful obedience. I hope others don't make same mistakes as I did, and DO put their FOC's well-being as 1st priority. I've many regrets.