Good news and now what?

[spha6092]

When my DH saw her with the kids some months ago now, when he was off to the bathroom or not paying attention, she was in my almost 4-year-old daughter's ear to exclude mummy from her drawing of the family.

You don't need that in your life. Your daughter doesn't need that in her life. Did your DH relate this incident to your T?

I agree- this is terrible 😞.

The 'ganging up ' perception - I feel that this is projection. PDs like to hunt in packs, it's what they do, so they will always try to outnumber the victim.
You two have no intention of 'ganging up' on her, but they believe that everyone else wants to behave as they do. So this is how she will see it. It's skewed.
Your husband can be reminded that it's perfectly normal for a married couple to take one of their parents out for lunch.
Why is MIL viewing it like something from Game of Thrones? 
I think also, she's proven that she's sneaky when left on her own with your daughter. I would be very careful.  If you see her on your own and she's mean and nasty, she'll deny that too.

Yes that's how she seeing it, like it's GOT. But it's pretty wild on her part since me and my DH really are the ones with all the power, not her. She lives totally beyond her means (always has to have French champagne and is very good at making people around her buy it!), has few close friends and I would say no authentic connections anyway, has a terrible inferiority complex (as she's very poorly educated) etc etc.

Now that my DH is breaking away from her, she only has my anxious SIL to control. I'm trying really hard to feel compassion for her. I don't think she wants to be mean but she can't help herself. So yes I do have to be careful, more for my daughter than for me since I can ultimately come out on top even if it's giving me grief now. I survived my own family stuff, this is surviveable too!

[spha6092]

Yes, at our appointment in December our T said that that was not acceptable. So it was a bit funny in the last session when she was urging me to find a way forward one-to-one.

I think she might have reacted like that because I basically said that my parents were pretty limited as well in terms of our interactions, and our T response was something like,' well your daughter can't just have no family on both sides. You have to work out a way, she's her grandmother."

But we have a lot of other people, we're hardly isolated. Our social calendar is crammed at the best of times. I have extended family I get on with fine, though they live in other states. My youngest brother ('the lost child' in so many ways) has become a bit more engaged recently. My parents are still there for us in acceptable, practical ways and they have a lot of redeeming qualities.

Whereas both my MIL and SIL aren't proving themselves to be very worthy I have to say. They absolutely piled on the cheap quality gifts for Christmas and New Years for the two kids ,which we have not passed on. I have been pushing back constantly for four years now anyway. We're going to have erect an extremely firm boundary about gifts - basically ask us first, or just give us money and we'll work out how to spend it. Or everything is going to end up being regifted so you're wasting your money. Reading the forums has really helped me understand the gift thing.

Well, again, our kids have no family on both sides. It's 100% best for them. Some kids have small families, their grandparents are deceased, whatever. It's truly not the end of the world. I think a lot of Ts are somewhat understandably invested in the idea of the family being absolutely worth preserving. And Ts, especially family counselors, sort of have to believe that families can be preserved in general. I happen to still agree with that, generally. But I still think her telling you what you have to do is problematic. When I look at my own situation I have no doubt whatsoever, but when I look around me at other people and their expectations of what a "nice" person prioritizes, I get anxious. It would be hard having that judgment of a sort of authority figure like a T to deal with.

The fact that you have lots of good people in your lives screams to me that keeping this relationship with your MIL is absolutely not crucial to anybody's well-being.

Thanks, yes she really is not crucial - and she knows it. She really adds so little value to our lives and it's become obvious the past two years where she has hardly lifted a finger to help us with two young kids, the toughest time in our lives. If she's not going to help us now, despite being retired and doing nothing else but look after my SIL's kids 1 day per week, when will she ever be there for us? It's not about money as we can afford care and about her not being able to since she is perfectly healthy, but she complains all the time about being bored and needing a project and then promised us she'd be there for us and help us with the kids - which she now denies.

You're right about the T, that's where she's coming from in terms of her therapeutic model. I didn't grow up with grandparents - death and also estrangement with my mother's mother (who lived 10 minutes walk away!). I never could understand why my DH just didn't seem to have much consciousness about his aunts, uncles, cousins even though quite a few of them live in the same city as us. Whereas in my case it was obvious why my FOO are so fractured.

I can handle the judgement of the T. I've been to a lot over the years and I have a double major in psychology  I don't think it's as clear as there's a right and a wrong way to do this. I definitely think part of the conflict is more between me and DH for not being on the same page. Dut anyway, I'm finding all the different opinions on this pretty helpful actually, and really grateful to everyone sharing on the forum as it's helping me work through things too.

My DH is struggling to come to terms with the idea that she really doesn't love him like she says she does - and that ultimately he doesn't love her that much either. She always says to him at the end of phone calls "love you" and I have never heard him say that once back to her. I told him there was all the proof he needed right there, he just doesn't feel it. But he does love me and our two kids.

[spha6092]

So if you accept that then what do you want for the upcoming relationship because you certainly don't need a one on one relationship with MIL.  DH can do all the communication.  Do you want to be present during any activities between MIL and your children?  If you do want to be present then how often would you be willing to do that, twice a year, once every 3 months, once a month?  I think the ball is in your court, work out what you are comfortable with and state your terms.  Would it be easier to see MIL once every 6 months to start with and plan something outside, an activity and go from there.  Or do you really want no contact?  Would your DH be comfortable with that?  Or would contact only on some holidays of the year be more workable or not on holidays because MIL will ruin them. 

As for the gifts I get how annoying it would be to receive trashy gifts but you know what, I would just accept them, let DH thank them, you don't have to ever utter the words thank you and I wouldn't, let DH do that or not do that, I wouldn't even remind him to thank them and then use what you can, throw the rest in the bin or donate them.  I wouldn't ask for money to be sent, or send a list, I wouldn't do this because it opens up one more avenue for confrontation and drama.  If your kids have heaps of other people in their life then let them enjoy that, really one more gift won't mean much.  Don't worry about MIL wasting her money, it is her choice what to buy, leave it up to her and if it isn't a good gift so be it, let it go, you probably know by now that she isn't going to do great but I would let it go.  If she doesn't want to waste her money she would ask you what to buy so this is her decision and as an adult she can do what she likes.  I wouldn't be drawn into this drama with her, I would let it go.

As for the lunch, I think your therapist is again pushing you.  Is this therapist use to working with PD families because not having your DH there means that your MIL will be open to saying and doing anything and being able to deny it later however that could be useful to you.  Lunch seems a little too much, would you be open to say meeting for a coffee and if it's going well you can stretch it out with a snack, if it goes badly you can leave much more easily without feeling bad that a meal is coming, it would be shorter as well. I would also go with some good comebacks just in case she insults you and I wouldn't hold back.  Stand up for yourself.  Also if your MIL is rude to you, then I would take that back to your DH and tell him that NC is definite.  However I don't know all of your history and perhaps you have reached that point already.  I would only go to lunch/coffee if you are looking for a way forward, if you aren't interested in that there is no point.  I guess think of it this way, you want DH there so what, he will see her insult you, or so that she won't insult you.  With DH there she will be on her best behaviour, I would be more interested in being alone with her and then seeing how she acts.  It doesn't matter if she denies anything later, if your MIL is rude or insults you alone, you have your answer, she is not trustworthy around your children.  You don't need to prove it to anyone, you know the truth, you say what happened and you say if others don't believe you too bad.  However that truth to me would be more important than anything else.  If she can't talk to you rationally then you have your answer.  It may be unpleasant but it could be worthwhile as well.  I personally wouldn't want DH there as a buffer, I would let MIL show her true colours, see what she says, if she is normal and civil then perhaps you will be able to move forward.

Say you went to lunch what is it that you need from MIL, an apology, what else?  MIL obviously only wants access to the grandchildren so are you able to move forward with a limited apology?  Are you looking at stating boundaries, what is MIL thinking she will get from this lunch?  Personally I would go to see what MIL has to say.  I would know your boundaries before you go, personally I don't think your MIL will be able to hide her snark however perhaps that's why I would go, can she have a civil conversation with you alone because if she can't I would drop the issue and say you are NC for another year or so and perhaps will try again later.  Really as you say you have a full life, even if MIL comes back around perhaps you won't be fitting her in as much as your MIL thinks.

Thanks so much for everything you've said Hilltop, it's really really helpful. I think maybe you're right that I should just suck it up and have a one-to-one lunch with her to get a clearer picture of what I am dealing with. However it goes, it will derail me for at least a day or two while I process, but maybe that's still better than delaying the inevitable.

I think I can cope with seeing her once or twice a year in the context of a family get together. My DH will see her with the kids every few months I suppose, because that's what he seems to want (at this stage). Unsupervised sleepovers is definitely over. No relationship from me doesn't necessarily mean no contact. In the middle of all this I went to her 70th birthday lunch and was perfectly civil so I know I can do it. But I don't know if my in-laws will be able to handle my presence now that I have revealed myself to be someone who is willing to stand up to them. They would really prefer to erase me as the scapegoat as per the picture incident - which I basically predicted would happen though I was shocked it happened so early on.

You're right that it's better to minimise drama around the issue of gifts. Money is unfortunately an issue that does come back to us though because she has often called my DH to bail her out over the years. She always tries to speak to him privately about money even when I am literally in the same room and I've always just let her in the past and roll my eyes. She has turned up at our doorstep many times with zilch through her own foolishness. So that's why the gift thing is a problem. My SIL is always in debt as well, she paid for a huge and unnecessary home renovation recently all on credit. We'll have to see how it goes with erecting boundaries around finances going forward.

I don't know if I need an apology exactly, as my parents never do either, but I need clear actions. Though in this case I'm still not sure what that is, really. She just doesn't have valuable skills aside from looking after kids, which she is great with - just not with ours! She looks after the kids of her super rich friends as well as my SIL's. We have just about never gotten a full day of babysitting from her. She would always turn up at 8.30 but then insist she had to head off by 3pm to go to the bank (had to be that particular day, not the other free days of the week!) or watch a Netflix series. And of course she would regularly cancel at the last minute too. Which is a long way of saying she has nothing to give me. Which is why it's so ridiculous that she has gotten away with treating us the way she has for so long...!

A bit of humility would be nice, and a lot more respect as well. I need to keep working out what is even possible with her.

[Hilltop]

spha6092 if meeting her is going to derail you for a couple of days is it worth it?  I guess what would you get out of having lunch with her, just because she has asked doesn't mean you have to go.  Could you simply email her back and say you accept her apology and you would just like to move on from this. Then leave it at that, move into MC with her.  If you are not keen on a relationship with her, perhaps lunch isn't needed.  Lunch to me is an indication you are looking for some sort of a relationship with her.  If you don't want a relationship with her or want to keep your distance I would move forward with that in mind. If you are able to be civil and see her a few times a year perhaps that's all you need to do.  The boundaries then only become important between you and your DH because really the two of you get to decide how often the children see your MIL.  It seems you already know yourself that you don't need a relationship with her.

I think it is a blessing in disguise that she is not interested in looking after your kids.  After what she did with the drawing do you really want her around your kids putting negative thoughts in their heads about you.  I think your boundaries of no overnight sleepovers and no babysitting are good ones.  If you are happy to see her a few times a year at family get togethers I would work on that and at least then there will be other people you can talk with etc. 

I would only have lunch if you feel the need to discuss any issues however it's completely ok if you don't want to go to simply email her back and decline the lunch but say you are happy to move forward.  If your DH wants you to go perhaps you can just tell him that you have accepted the apology and it's done.  Keep in mind your MIL asking you to lunch is most likely nothing to do with you, she is doing this to appear genuine to your DH, a show of her trying and then she can turn around and say see I tried.  If you don't get along you don't get along, so be it.

Good luck, do what's right for you, at least by giving yourself time, you are able to think things through clearly.

[Leonor]

Hey Spha,

I am here to tell you deserve more than just "being able to handle it".

Handle your h. Handle your mil. Handle your SIL. Handle your t.

That's the old way. That's the trauma talking. "Oh, I'll be fine, don't worry about me, I can handle it!"

Handle being disrespected. Handle being invalidated. Handle being unsupported.

Because you "have it better". Because you "know more". Because you "have more resources".

So they get to run their agenda all over you, and you are left to huddle in a corner by yourself, "handling it".

And then you even get to feel grateful, because of all of this resource and knowledge and inner strength you have.

And if you protest, they try to frighten you: what if we just forget you're there at all? Do you better stay right there, handling it.

Spha, you are not a bit player in your family. You are not a bit player in your marriage. You are not a bit player in YOUR life! NOBODY puts Spha in the corner!

You are the woman and wife and mother of your family. You are the center of the present and the foundation for the future. You are the heart of your family's emotional life and you are called upon to be its moral, visionary and practical leader.

You don't have to handle being abused. You can take this situation in hand, and handle how you will and will not go forward. And you owe an explanation to No. One.

Do you want to go to lunch with your mil because you think it would be an enjoyable visit that leaves you feeling happy and relaxed afterwards, like after a good outing with friends? No?

So then you don't go. Period.

Let them handle it for a change.

Rule, Queen!

[bloomie]

Hey Spha,

I am here to tell you deserve more than just "being able to handle it".

Handle your h. Handle your mil. Handle your SIL. Handle your t.

That's the old way. That's the trauma talking. "Oh, I'll be fine, don't worry about me, I can handle it!"

Handle being disrespected. Handle being invalidated. Handle being unsupported.

Because you "have it better". Because you "know more". Because you "have more resources".

So they get to run their agenda all over you, and you are left to huddle in a corner by yourself, "handling it".

And then you even get to feel grateful, because of all of this resource and knowledge and inner strength you have.

And if you protest, they try to frighten you: what if we just forget you're there at all? Do you better stay right there, handling it.

Spha, you are not a bit player in your family. You are not a bit player in your marriage. You are not a bit player in YOUR life! NOBODY puts Spha in the corner!

You are the woman and wife and mother of your family. You are the center of the present and the foundation for the future. You are the heart of your family's emotional life and you are called upon to be its moral, visionary and practical leader.

You don't have to handle being abused. You can take this situation in hand, and handle how you will and will not go forward. And you owe an explanation to No. One.

Do you want to go to lunch with your mil because you think it would be an enjoyable visit that leaves you feeling happy and relaxed afterwards, like after a good outing with friends? No?

So then you don't go. Period.

Let them handle it for a change.

Rule, Queen!

Best rallying cry to self empowerment and standing up tall and strong in the middle of OUR own lives and sphere of influence I may have ever read!!!!

[nanotech]

Hey Spha,

I am here to tell you deserve more than just "being able to handle it".

Handle your h. Handle your mil. Handle your SIL. Handle your t.

That's the old way. That's the trauma talking. "Oh, I'll be fine, don't worry about me, I can handle it!"

Handle being disrespected. Handle being invalidated. Handle being unsupported.

Because you "have it better". Because you "know more". Because you "have more resources".

So they get to run their agenda all over you, and you are left to huddle in a corner by yourself, "handling it".

And then you even get to feel grateful, because of all of this resource and knowledge and inner strength you have.

And if you protest, they try to frighten you: what if we just forget you're there at all? Do you better stay right there, handling it.

Spha, you are not a bit player in your family. You are not a bit player in your marriage. You are not a bit player in YOUR life! NOBODY puts Spha in the corner!

You are the woman and wife and mother of your family. You are the center of the present and the foundation for the future. You are the heart of your family's emotional life and you are called upon to be its moral, visionary and practical leader.

You don't have to handle being abused. You can take this situation in hand, and handle how you will and will not go forward. And you owe an explanation to No. One.

Do you want to go to lunch with your mil because you think it would be an enjoyable visit that leaves you feeling happy and relaxed afterwards, like after a good outing with friends? No?

So then you don't go. Period.

Let them handle it for a change.

Rule, Queen!

Best rallying cry to self empowerment and standing up tall and strong in the middle of OUR own lives and sphere of influence I may have ever read!!!!

I agree!
I used to dread family parties  until I learned ( from this website and from Kris Godinez) that I have no obligation to attend them. So I stopped.
Do what you want, not what's expected of you. That's my view.