OCPD-When they suddenly change their own rules!

[11JB68]

Good morning Out of the FOG friends! Sorry but I have to rant about this as I was talking to myself in my car about it all the way to work. And, again, as with most things with my uOCPDh, it was a very 'minor' incident - and because I medium chilled, and didn't JADE it didn't turn into a fight....
He has RULES about everything. I thought of jsinjin this morning as this one has to do with trash. In our town we have a large blue container for trash and a matching large green one for recycling. As with most things it's become my job to put them on the street on trash day. Supposedly, according to town rules they need to be 6' apart. Hardly Anyone does this. I see them all over town right next to each other and there is no negative result to this at all! However,  early on when this started, uOCPDh lectured myself and DS that we were putting them too close together. So - I SWEAR this happened, otherwise I HAVE lost my mind - one day finally he brought us out to the street and said THIS is where to put them-one at the end of the driveway, here and the other here - use this telephone pole as a guide. It's more than 6' but that's better than too close. OK. SO - I TRY to follow the rules. So EVERY week I put them that way. This morning, for some UNKNOWN reason (and I KNOW - there is something going on with HIM, in HIS mind, that he felt the need to do this) I put out the trash, and as I'm getting ready to leave for work he says (and yes, he is SO COVERT) "I'm sorry, I hate to have to say something to you..." (and I'm thinking HUH? what did I do now??) H: The trash cans only have to be 6' apart, they don't have to do halfway up the street.  ("halfway up the street" - see if I exaggerate something like that he gets annoyed - it's NOT 'halfway up the street').  I just MC'd and didn't JADE and said "Ok".
But got in my car and cursed and ranted to MYSELF.  1) if he was doing a chore for me and I criticized how he did it - OMG he would be upset. 2) If I were to JADE and say, well I clearly remember you telling us to place them in those exact spots - he'd either say he never said that and/or would say to me: "Why do you have to argue with me? Why can't you just do what I say?"  ( Ahem...I AM doing what he said....and I'M not the one arguing - I DID A THING and HE chose to contradict the way I did it...how does that make me argumentative????)

I don't know if he truly doesn't remember.  Or if as I  suspect the 'rules' really are just arbitrary and used arbitrarily to control us.

[Starboard Song]

I think they are arbitrary all right, but I think they are to control the world and not us. I've seen it in a BPD person, not OCD: the nit-picking at everything, and always over-correcting. Too much tape, not enough. Slow response, hasty response. It is probably different for all, but it became clear that this increasingly rule-based life -- this regimented life -- was a way of controlling the world, of creating a sense of order. Again, I don't know beans about OCD, but we just saw that pointless regimentation took over the BPD's entire life, even in matters that affected or involved nobody else at all.

Be strong.

[losingmyself]

Yes! Absolutely, changing the 'rules', then claiming he never said that. He told DS that he might as well just wait until he was 18 to get his drivers license. Then when he did, H gave him a hard time for waiting, and when DS said "You told me I should wait until I was 18" H denied denied denied.
Then he keeps bringing it up, like "can you believe he said that??" I was there, I know he said it. I was stuck between defending my DS and starting a huge fight, or keeping my mouth shut. I chose to keep quiet. I should have told DS that I knew he was right, privately. But I didn't. I feel bad about that.
So, when they do this, do they really remember saying the opposite?? That question has always perplexed me.
I agree with you both, they're arbitrary and meant to control. i think also that there are just so many rules that they're hard to keep track of, so maybe he honestly doesn't remember making some of them. Then, if I decide that I'm a grown up and I can make my own decisions, I get "You NEVER do ANYTHING I tell you!"  Sigh

[SparkStillLit]

SAAAAME SAME SAME. Just random arbitrary crap. I'm sure you're not losing your mind 11JB68! And so funny ranting in the car....at least there's bluetooth these days so I don't look absolutely nuts raving to myself in the car!!!!
There are so many of these dingey rules that he's invented and then gone back and changed. There have even been objects that I'm REALLY SURE I've had forever (not really important ones, just purposeful ones that I have several of), that he suddenly says one has particular meaning and is his, and takes it out of use. What-everrrrrrr.
Same thing to DS. I will hear what DS said, then he will claim DS said another thing or didn't say whatever, but I back the kid. (Teen). I'm not going to let him gaslight the last nestling if I'm there to hear it.

[blew]

They live by rules that only exist in their heads.  They have no idea what the rest of the world is thinking of them.

Tonight my SO asked me to grab her purse and take out her credit card to pay for takeout.  I almost never do this.  Maybe once in the
last five years.  But in less than 10 seconds she was ranting at me because I didn't know where that particular card was.  "IN THE BACK POCKET!!!  I can't believe you NEVER remember!"

So I dropped his purse to the floor (just a foot or so) in frustration and she immediately jumped on me, blaming me for not being able to take criticism.  Of course, it had nothing to do with my ability to accept honest criticism, but it was a way to shift the blame back to me.  Because I was tired, I just apologized vociferously and that deescalated the moment.

And yes, I've spent many moments screaming in the car, too!

[SonofThunder]

Hello 11JB68,

I wish to add that although my uPDw is not OC, very similar things exist with certain things in our home life, all for the sake of 'control' and also to not be 'out of control'.  I mention both because 'control' brings my uPD self confidence and the rush of power and compliance in others provides satisfaction .  'Out of control' causes her anxiety, lack of power and therefore disgust at others and inwardly, at herself.  But there is a middle ground also, as not every aspect of living is scrutinized. 

When my now-adult children were living in the home in their grade school years, and my knowledge of PD's was non-existent, it was very difficult for all of us to figure out why some subjects mattered with my uPDw and why others did not.  After i became aware of PD's, it became very clear to me, that the subjects that mattered, had to do with societal assumed roles of my wife, and parts of our living that were visible to others outside our home (or at least my uPDw thought they were), as both of these were a reflection on her to others, which is the crux of the PD life as it is a self-focus that is disordered.  Everyone else better be sure they are making her look good in the eyes of others, so she can hide her negative self behind that facade 'got it all together'. 

So yes, in our home, items such as laundry, homework, home and personal cleanliness, landscaping care, fashion choices, sports and so on, were highly scrutinized, yet the areas of our home that anyone outside the home may ever see (or perceive regarding her area of management) were not.  Laundry was a purely control issue inside the home and there were rules regarding laundry that were strange, as some had no common sense, but were designed to look highly organized and keep everyone in line.   Childrens homework and grades and success at sports, a direct reflection of my uPDw at the childrens school and PTA.  Cleanliness a reflection of my uPD in all areas of her world; landscaping brings status and a sense of highly organized and well managed home (and husband haha) and so then fashion, as you can imagine SUCH a huge issue for her regarding the whole family. 

After my knowledge of PD's and a lot of study, it became critical to me, that i would be the voice and model of reason and common-sense as well as balance.  This pits me against my uPDw in MANY areas, but my children were able to see that it doesn't have to be the way she desired/required, which helped them make decisions for themselves where they could and now as adults with adult rights/freedoms, they are balanced (thank God) and realize that many things in our home were way out of whack for some time. 

In areas where the extreme and changing control occurred, such as laundry, I decided to do my own clothes, and she could wash hers and the kids.  She argued at first, but realized i would quietly wash them while she was away or sleeping.  I told her I appreciated her washing my clothes, but that the arguments over the laundry rules she desired were hurtful to our relationship, so i would wash my own.  Done. 

With landscape maintenance, i told her i would not participate at all and we would be hiring out. Done.  So, i recommend to you the possibility that you tell your husband that neither you nor your DS will be responsible for trash receptacles, because of the precision scrutiny and therefore damage to relationdhips, so them now HE can align them any way he wants.  If they are not put out and missed, let it pile up!   I also highly recommend you be the voice and example of reason and balance for your child(ren), as in hindsight, although VERY difficult on my stress level, it was my responsibility and requirement to break the chain of PD and teach my children that there are other ways.   

The Out of the FOG toolbox is your best friend in this process and your child(ren) will also watch you and learn to interact with difficult people, both inside and outside the home.  Its tough, but we non's have this responsibility to our children because of the 50% rule and they did not have a choice, nor do they have adult rights until they are out of the home. 

SoT

[ICantThinkOfAName]

SOT so very well said!  I did indeed stop buying produce for my uOCPDh.  I just flat out told him, I'll never be able to get exactly what he wants.  Done and done.

blew oh my gosh!  The why don't you know everything I know?  Just kills me.  And then blaming you for not being able to take criticism.  Mine plays the same game.  And it makes me feel like I've lost my mind because I don't remember everything like he says I should.  I've decided that he's not a reliable reference for what I should know or not.

11Jb68 the trash.  I agree with SOT if he wants it done to precision, well he'll have to do it.  I'd feel the urge to be passive aggressive about it and get out a measuring tape and then ask him to inspect.  Mine takes out the trash but has a hissy fit if one of our cars is anywhere near where he wants to put it and complains about how bad the parking job is and how disrespectful we are to the neighbors for parking all the way out in the street like that.

[1footouttadefog]

I think that with my spouse he gets a sense of posotive self esteem from being nit oicky over such things.

I think he could not do things right in his oarents eyes so any form of authority figure be it tye oost office, the bank teller, the garbage man ie city works deoartment, government etc he gets great satisfaction following every rule to the t.  Its as iff theybare his mommy figures and he needs their approval.

He will clean the counter andbmakensure his stamps are oerfectly affized erc.

[11JB68]

Thanks for all the feedback.
A few thoughts.
First, OCPD is quite different from OCD.
IF UPDH  were OCD (as he claims) he would insist on doing things like trash himself and just so and exactly the same way every time. Yet what he wants to do is enforce his will on everyone around him, and also change the arbitrary rules just enough so that we can never be good enough.

Also, if I were ever to say, then do it yourself, this would result in rage and lecturing and circular arguing ad nauseum. The few times I've tried it... That's what I get.

[1footouttadefog]

Yes a person can be OCD and not have a personality disorder.

Many OCD people are troubled by the impact their OCD can have on those around them and will work to minimize its impact, as well as show gratitude to those who compromize or accomodate them without judgement.

OCOD will often use it to control others.

[SonofThunder]

Thanks for all the feedback.
A few thoughts.
First, OCPD is quite different from OCD.
IF UPDH  were OCD (as he claims) he would insist on doing things like trash himself and just so and exactly the same way every time. Yet what he wants to do is enforce his will on everyone around him, and also change the arbitrary rules just enough so that we can never be good enough.

Also, if I were ever to say, then do it yourself, this would result in rage and lecturing and circular arguing ad nauseum. The few times I've tried it... That's what I get.

11JB68,

You wrote " this would result in rage and lecturing and circular arguing ad nauseum. The few times I've tried it... That's what I get.". 

My uPDw would attempt to do similar things.  Rage would be an immediate reaction  by my uPDw, but lecturing and circular arguing would only happen if I was around to hear it.  The Out of the FOG toolbox, especially boundaries, protects me from being around after rage begins, and my uPDw doesn't like to lecture/argue with herself. 

Those things can be diminished and then avoided by proper tools from the toolbox and especially boundaries on ourselves.  It's uncomfortable to engage the boundaries during those episodes, but my uPDw has learned through experience that she will quickly be standing alone in a rage event. 

SoT

[SparkStillLit]

I got gaslighted about a conversation that I apparently left in the middle of. (Weird. No talking was going on.) I got punished for that by leaving something for me to do that should have been done by others. Then there's the obnoxiousness about the booze. This is really another matter, but first it was don't like my kind of booze. Then wait, he's "developed a taste for it" resulting in he hits it hard so whenever I rarely want it, it's gone. Then, doesn't like my new booze at all, can't stand it. But wait, suddenly wants a mixer for it, because isn't it X kind? Has his own, but won't keep out of mine and when his is gone, will just disappear mine.
All the stupid Rules only ever apply to other people. As you will recall, if I am talking, he just leaves. He hovers about the kitchen seeing what I'm fixing, what I'm doing, and I SWEAR he hears me in it and comes to see and hover and remark. Otherwise he stays holed up, but let my footsteps start in the kitchen? Maybe I'm paranoid, but that's how it seems.

[1footouttadefog]

Totally get the kitchen drama.  Its their favorite arena in many households.

I can relate to the changing tastes to take your liquer as well. Ine does not drink but will do that with other foods.  My pd will poor straight vinegar or worchestershire on something to eat it just because.

Fortunately its not all the time just wjen he is being pissy.