Court-ordered mental health evaluation

[eyesopen]

Does anyone have experience in having the uPD in their life get a court ordered mental health evaluation? Did it actually work or did they put on their "best-behavior-mask" and fool the evaluator?

My exW and co-parent to our 7yo daughter is undiagnosed but exhibits all the BPD traits. I was thinking I'd have to go through family court to stop her from harassing me and to end the badmouthing and alienation with DD, but she went ahead and made things worse for herself all on her own.

Short story, exW was charged with a felony where I'm the victim and there's video evidence of her actions. Since a trial wouldn't rule in her favor but she has a clean record prior, the prosecutor is allowing her to get the charges dropped if she's on good behavior for a year and meets some other requirements. One of those requirements, at my request, is that she have a mental health evaluation and follow through with whatever treatment is recommended. If she fails to meet the program requirements, she's waived her right to a trial, the charges will be reinstated, and a judge will rule against her. So you see, she has plenty of incentive to do everything she's told to do.

Since this evaluation is compulsory, what are the chances that she could evade detection of any mental health disorders? She has incentive to minimize or avoid any treatment being required, so I wouldn't put it past her to answer the questions dishonestly. Or do evaluators have reliable ways to see through the deception and get an accurate assessment?

I'll have to wait and see how it works in exW's case, but hearing anyone else's similar experience may help to calm my wandering mind.

[GettingOOTF]

BPD is very difficult to diagnose. My ex only got his diagnosis after he was hospitalized and they were able to observe him for some time.

Before that he was diagnosed with depression and ADHD. He had seen a number of therapists and psychiatrists over the years.

I’m not sure what’s involved in a court ordered assessment, what they look for or how hard they look.  My ex was VERY charming and very convincing. He got quite few people to believe that I was the issue. That I was making up stories about him etc. At one point it was recommended that I go in to therapy.

Your ex has nothing to gain by being honest. I can’t for sure say even I would be honest under similar circumstances. My advice based on my experience of someone with BPD and of trying to get them diagnosed is to tread very carefully in terms of what you accuse her of. You are lucky that you have the video. I’d document every interaction with her and stay out of the way. Unless she is very disordered it’s unlikely anything will come out of this assessment and if they say she’s “fine” then you’ll have a harder time proving anything going forward. I was accused of having my ex committed so I could “have a break”. He attacked me with a knife and put me through hell for years, but I was seen as the aggressor because I involved the authorities.

[Penny Lane]

I don't have any direct experience but I would say this is a hope for the best, plan for the worst situation.

The good news is that the very worst case scenario is that nothing changes. She games the system, either fools the psychiatrist or does the very bare minimum on the report and then goes back to normal after it's over. (My guess is on the second one - I bet in these situations the evaluator has seen a lot of people who lie.) Even this is slightly better than what's happening now - you'll have a bit of a reprieve, because she'll be on her best behavior for awhile, and you can use that time to heal and develop more healthy patterns with her. So potentially even a short reprieve leads to longer term quality of life gains.

Best case scenario, this situation really scares her - she realizes how close she came to serious consequences like jail - and she tones it down forever. I mean, if we're hoping, I hope that the mental health evaluation recommendations do work and she makes some serious inner changes! But I think that's unlikely, and even if there are no inner changes, you very well might see some outer changes because my guess is that she does not want to be charged with another felony, or face the actual repercussions of her actions.

We did have a scary situation with BM once, not rising to the level of a felony but police were involved and she could have easily been arrested. Taking the very long view, things have improved a lot since then. And I do think the specter of having consequences for her actions inspires her to make improvements. Basically, when she does something that later comes up in court/letter to her lawyer, or when the police are involved, or there are other consequences, she does seem to back down on doing that sort of thing in the future. It's a very stressful process to go through though and I wish she would just ... not be terrible in the meantime.

This won't be a silver bullet to fix all her bad behavior, and you very well might see an extinction burst that is very unpleasant, but I think overall things will likely improve for you. If you go in with low expectations (this is probably not going to solve her mental health issues or even lead to a substantial recovery) and firm boundaries, I think you will come out the better for it.

And, take care of yourself! The scary situation I referenced above was really awful. I was terrified for years of her doing the same thing again. This was a very long time ago, maybe five years, and I think I'm finally calming down - although I still get very tense when she comes to the house. I highly suggest a therapist to help you process, because at least for me I didn't realize how hard it was to deal with it until I started coming out of it.

[eyesopen]

Thank you for the replies. My expectations are currently pretty low for the outcome of the evaluation. I'm assuming she'll say what she needs to say and act the way she needs to act in order to satisfy the evaluator that she is well and not a danger to herself or society. She's told our daughter that I'm the reason she went to jail, so I don't think she'll ever take responsibility for her own choices.

I hope that the incident that resulted in her arrest was the extinction burst. It was preceded by about a week of increasingly hostile verbal/text harassment, enough for me to install security cameras because I was worried of what she might do. The timing of getting the cameras couldn't have been better because the incident happened less than 48 hours after they were installed.

One additional requirement that was implemented at my request is a no contact order. ExW isn't allowed within 500ft of my home nor can she contact me other than matters related to our child for a full year. I just signed up for Our Family Wizard in hopes that we can keep all child-related contact through the app and I'll never get any emails, calls or texts.

If anything good comes of this, I hope it's that a year of court mandated low contact will be enough to build some healthy communication habits. And even if no healthy habits are built, I'll have a year of relative peace... so at least there's that.

[GettingOOTF]

The no contact order is awesome. Hopefully it will give her time and space to find somewhere else to vent her frustrations. I think NC is the best we can all hope for to be honest.

[Free2Bme]

eyesopen,

I also have no direct experience but will share what I have been told. 

When I left updH (aspd/malignant type), I wanted psych eval required for H.  My attorney told me I would have to undergo the eval as well.  I had no problem with that and wanted to proceed, confident about H being severely disordered.   

She dissuaded me by saying that in her experience, the psych evaluation does a deep profile of a persons character, probing into their past, interviewing people that know you, etc.  Her words were, "even the healthiest people come out looking messed up". 

When I mentioned my belief that H was disordered, but very charismatic and polished, her response was that he could fool the test.

I was confused and discouraged by her response.  In retrospect, it doesn't really make sense.  Even with her skepticism, I regret I did not go  forward with it.  Since then, I have asked two therapists and neither of them believed that anyone could fool a psych test.

I would say to make sure your children are safe first and foremost.  Hopefully, she will modify her behavior enough to make things bearable.




 

[WesternLover]

Hello Eyesopen -

I am very interested to hear the conclusion you came to on the psych evaluation. I am currently facing the same decision. My son's father is uNPD and I very much suspect he could be a psychopath or uASPD. I had managed to fend him off for years with a RO/PFA but unfortunately it has expired.

I'm kind of thinking he is too sick to fool a psychiatrist, but you know how they can be manipulative and charming. I'm so afraid it will wind up bolstering his case.

What conclusion have you come to?

Thanks so much!

[eyesopen]

The evaluation is going forward, but I'm not sure I'll hear anything about it for quite a while. Well, I might, considering how much exW tells DD7 about the details of everything - more on that in a moment.

The court order says she needs to get a mental health evaluation from a state-certified agency within 90 days, follow through with all treatment recommendations in the evaluation, and provide proof to the court. The next court date is after 6 months and its purpose is to check in with her progress, so I probably won't get word of anything until then. And even then, it'll only be whatever is discussed or filed in court, which I doubt would be the full details of her evaluation or treatment. It would be nice to know what's going on in real time, but I'll have to wait until the end of July for the court date before I know for sure.

As to my earlier comment about details shared with DD7... Part of the court order is that exW has to pay me restitution for my property that she damaged. The other day, DD7 asked me why I told her mom that it cost $XXX (she said actual amount) to repair the _____. When I responded with a questioning look on my face and just saying, "because that's how much it cost," she said that it just seems like I'm lying to her mom so that I can get more of her money. She's obviously not coming up with that thought all on her own and I was put in the position of defending myself to DD7 about something she shouldn't even know about. Not that I wanted to at all, but to put the question of me lying out of her mind, I showed her the invoice. That ended the conversation as she acknowledged that, yes, it really is that expensive.

[athene1399]

Eyesopen, I am sorry you ex put DD in the middle of the situation. That is tricky at times. But I am glad you had the invoice to back it up. Did it seem like showing her the invoice helped?

I hope things go you way with the evaluation and I hope it helps your situation

[hhaw]

EO:

It seems the Ex should be required to stop involving your sugared 7yo child in every adult conflict, particularly if she's lying and manufacturing chaos to harm you.

I'd consider asking the court to amend the Order to include consequences and a heads up to the evaluator about the alienation behaviors.

That's really some nerve.  Your ex isn't so intimidated by consequences she pretends to act normal for a bit.

The court believes you at this point.  Don't ask, don't get.

In the meantime I'd reassure my child she doesn't have to worry about mom or dad.  Adults can handle their stuff...everyone will be ok.  Your 7yo has her own kid jobs...school, chores, finding her passions and honoring her instincts.  End with asking her what she thinks about whatever you guys are discussing. 

Listen.

She might know the truth if you ask.

If she knows her mom is a troublemaking liar.....how do you expect her to feel about it?

Kids are 50% each parent.  This can be a learning experience I'd dd7 doesn't get defensive about her mom.

You seem super grounded and compassionate.  I'm sure you can help your DD identify "sad" choices while seeing the entire field.....so DD doesn't get her nose stuck on that one "mom's a lying liar, I'm 50% troublemaking lying liar" Pebble.

I always spoke kind and loving truths about my children's ASPD N father, bc I wanted my girls to internalize the good, even if I couldn't protect them from the really sad stuff.

It's ok to ask DD what she thinks......instead of constantly defending yourself.  Trust her, and see.  She might surprise you both.

Then go back to reassuring her.....the adult stuff isn't her stuff to handle.

My ASPD N was dx'd quickly by 2 Ts, but I believe PD was quite proud of himself.  The Psychiatrist said the ASPD would likely fool a pitch test.  The ASPD said he'd studied how to fool one.

Another T said it's almost impossible to fool the tests.

Having gone through one myself, along with both children and their PD paternal grandparents I have to say.....
the tests seemed pretty accurate on all but my FIL.  He's retired Army Intelligence and managed to control himself, unlike my MIL.

If your ex is very smart and capable of controlling her emotions....she might fool the tests.  It feels like being asked the same questions 50 different ways.....it would be difficult to fool the test for most PDs, IME.

Good luck to you and your DD.

[Mintstripes]

When I was in court for divorce and custody, the judge ordered a psych eval for my UnPDx.

I had to undergo the evaluation as well, of course, and it was grueling. My gut told me that I couldn't trust the court appointed psychiatrist. She almost seemed to be goading me into getting angry or something, making statements that seemed to be extremely empathetic towards ex.

It worried me so much that when ex put a settlement offer on the table, I reviewed with my attorney and grabbed it so we could end the madness after nearly a year of court.

I'm sorry I don't have any better advice. I hope your exW reveals her true colors and that the evaluator is able to see through her.

[eyesopen]

In a couple weeks, it'll be the 90 day mark since the original court date. That was the deadline set for obtaining the eval and reporting proof to the court. There's no scheduled court date until 6 months (end of July), but I may get an early glimpse of things if it's added to her case file which is available online.

For the most part, the no-contact order has continued to be a blessing. I'm not getting any calls, texts, or emails harassing me anymore. We are using Talking Parents to handle all the co-parenting communication and that's been... it's been okay.

ExW requested some specific days in June for her parenting time. We hadn't planned out the calendar (which is shared on Talking Parents) that far yet, but I agreed to swap any days with her. I just asked her to enter the calendar for June and that was too much for her. She sent several nasty messages accusing me of always having to control everything and saying she didn't want to propose a calendar because I'd just say no and change it anyway. ??? I reiterated that my answer was yes but the schedule request was hers, so I couldn't do it myself. She eventually proposed a calendar that actually gave me 2 more days than I would have had otherwise, so it was good in the end.

The other co-parenting communication issue happened this last weekend. I was out running errands with the woman I've been seeing. We were at the mall and saw DD and exW coming toward us from the other direction. I stopped (gf kept walking after getting dagger eyes from exW), I said DD's name a couple times to get her attention, waved and said "Hi" as she passed by, and then we continued on in opposite directions. Later that day, I got a Talking Parents message threatening to call the police if I ever attempt to take DD during exW's parenting time ever again. She also accused me of chasing them and restated her warning that she'll call the police.

I could take a screenshot of the threat to the sheriff and it would be a violation of the no-contact order. That would result in her immediate arrest and a misdemeanor charge. It could also mess up her probation and have her felony charges brought back. I thought about it, but decided to let it go this time. Mainly because I talked to DD and she said "Mommy freaked out and said you were trying to take me, but all we did was wave and then keep going, so she's not making any sense." The potential of losing her job as a teacher, several months in jail, and $1000's in legal fees is clearly not a deterrent for her. But if I'm threatened again, it's getting reported.

[Penny Lane]

Hi eyesopen,
I don't know if you came here for advice, or just commiseration, but I think you should think again about submitting it. Your ex's bad behavior has the court's attention right now, but it might not forever. Pushit's latest thread, I think, really shows that we can't always get the court's attention when we most want/need it. The court wants to know what she's doing so that it can impose reasonable consequences. If you did share this with them, the consequences would NOT be because of you. They would be consequences 100% your ex's fault - it's not like she didn't know the court case was going on when she sent that message! If she, say, loses her job as a teacher because she's aggressively harassing the father of her children - well, she made that choice and the court might feel that she should not be a teacher if she's going to act that way. Again, that is on her. In short, we've found that BM will keep pushing the boundaries until she finds the limit. My guess is that your ex will do the same. But you might not be in such a good position to enforce the limits in the future.

Anyway, that's just my two cents. There are good reasons to not act, as you know, and you don't really have a lot of good options here. I'm glad that the no contact order is mostly working out for you. It sounds like you are, for the most part, getting some much-needed peace! And I'm glad that your daughter is seeing things clearly.

[eyesopen]

You know, Penny Lane, you're right. I keep coming back to this site for both commiseration and for advice. And this situation is entirely her own doing, any consequences have nothing to do with me, and I'm terribly worried about what things will be like after the NCO expires. If she's like this now, what will happen when she's not under the court's microscope?

I went back and forth in my mind many times about whether to report it. Right after it happened, I emailed a city police sergeant and he said I should report it to the county sheriff, since the mall is outside city limits. But I wasn't finding the sheriff's email address easily and then my daughter came back to my place. She was all good, so I thought I'd let it go as not being worth the hassle.

But it continued to nag at me, so I found the sheriff's email and sent them a note about what happened and attached a copy of the threatening messages I received. I should find out very soon whether they agree it's a violation of the NCO. Exw is only allowed to contact me about matters concerning our daughter. The threat was wrapped in the context of our daughter, but it was a threat nonetheless.

I know with 100% certainty that she will blame me if she sees any consequences and she'll make sure that DD is informed that it's all my fault. I'm scared of that. Not scared enough to let her manipulate the situation, but scared knowing that there will be rough times with DD ahead that will require me to be steady as a rock (a gray one  ) through whatever comes of this.

Besides all this, exW has found another way around the NCO to harass me. She signed up for a bunch of catalogs that have begun showing up at my house. Ones for hunting and fishing gear (I'm vegan), for plus sized women's clothes, and several others. I also got a call from a Redfin agent saying I'd signed up for a consultation about selling my house. I found the fake Redfin account (she used my actual email), then changed the password so I could log in and delete the account. Because all these catalogs are coming in my name, there's nothing to directly tie exW to them.

It all seems like such a petty waste of time. There are so many better things to do with one's life... like move on. She's living with her new boyfriend. She says she's happy. Yet she's clearly unhappy because hating and harassing me are still her priorities.

[Penny Lane]

Wow, is she a grown adult, teacher, and mom or is she a teenager?? If the deputies are interested in the message you might mention the magazine thing to them too - yeah, you can't prove it, but she is in trouble for harassing you and it's a pretty good bet that she's doing any further harassing.

You are for sure right that she will blame you for consequences of her actions. But she does that anyway, right?

Everything you're describing sounds like DH's ex's extinction burst of really awful behavior. Basically she started to see consequences for her actions and sort of went on a harassment rampage. It was very stressful! Taking the very long view, things have improved a lot - in part because of consequences and in part because DH didn't give her what she wanted. I hope things get better for you, even if it does take years.

[eyesopen]

Update: I saw a copy of the mental health evaluation that was filed with the court and there's a hearing this Friday.

Unsurprisingly, she was able to tell the evaluator all the right answers. The results show that she has normal cognitive and emotional functioning and no treatment is recommended. I've seen first hand the extreme abandonment fears, the black and white thinking about everything, the damaging impulsive behaviors, the threats of suicide, the self mutilating, the totally unstable and quickly changing moods, the complaints of emptiness/worthlessness, the extreme anger, the paranoid thinking... apparently she was able to disguise all of that for the hour or two while she was in front of the evaluator. Not a particularly difficult feat.

The court hearing this Friday, I think, is just a mid-year check-in on her probation. I'll watch anonymously on Zoom to see how things go. I reported her previous NCO violation and she's missed two prior court dates. I was watching on zoom those 2 times when they called her name and she wasn't there in person or on zoom and neither was her lawyer. The judge didn't make a big deal of it, they just moved on to the next case, so I'm curious if that will come back to bite her at this Friday's hearing.

The previous harassment seems to have stopped. No more new catalogs arriving and no new threats for me to report. I was 5 minutes late dropping off our daughter last week and I received a very angry scolding from across the yard for not being on time, but my daughter and I shrugged it off, hugged, and things are all good.

[Penny Lane]

How are you feeling about all this? You and DD doing well?

[eyesopen]

The last few months between me and DD have been excellent. We have the best and most loving relationship we've ever had. Life has been pretty much drama-free when it comes to her mother interfering in our lives, so I've been feeling very calm, relieved, and positive lately.

Early this year, when her mother was more actively negative toward me, DD would frequently ask me clarifying questions about my communications with her mother. There were lots of "mommy said ____" moments that I had to navigate carefully. For the first 12-24 hours after each drop off from her mother, DD would have a very defiant attitude and say rude or negative things. I was regularly having to tell her that when she's with me, we don't say mean things about friends/family/neighbors/classmates/anyone. We never say negative things about their looks, their weight, or anything else because it's bullying, whether the other person hears us or not.

All that seems to have gone away. There aren't any awkward questions or comments for me to respond to. DD is in a great, positive mood and is happy to see me from the moment I pick her up. She never says mean things about anyone. Though sometimes she'll have a thought and say, "This might sound mean, but... ...wait... nevermind" and then she's back to being positive and smiling again. What a great improvement. Her mom makes judgmental comments about everyone's appearance constantly, so I'm really happy that DD is teaching herself to think before she speaks (at least around me) rather than copy her mom's meanness.

The no-contact order goes through January 2022, so I have about 6 months left of this current peaceful situation. After it expires, I hope that exW keeps communication as minimal, only about our daughter. At the first sign of any more harassment, I won't hesitate to get another order in place because the current one has been such a gamechanger.

[Penny Lane]

That is so great! I'm so glad you're able to model kind behavior for her. We've had this same problem too. Our BM is just mean, everything she says is mean, even idle chit chat at sports games she can't help but be mean about parents, coaches and even other kids. It's her default. I really think it holds her back in life, probably similar to your ex, and it's such a gift to show your daughter another path.

I hope your ex finds that she's enjoying not talking to you as much as vice versa and this peace continues! Even if not much happens in court, that would be a great outcome to this.

I'll be interested to hear what the judge says. We found that BM didn't have a whole lot of consequences for things like missing hearings or harassing us, but our BM wasn't being charged with a crime. Fingers crossed for you.

[hhaw]

Does anyone have experience in having the uPD in their life get a court ordered mental health evaluation? Did it actually work or did they put on their "best-behavior-mask" and fool the evaluator?  It appears your ex couldn't put on her best behavior mask for the cameras, so assume she's unlikely to pull off perfect behavior for the forensic T, IME. 

Sometimes the PD is a very smart, master manipulator, but it doesn't sound like your ex is, considering court didn't go her way.  Her behavior, the video....... will make it more difficult for her to sway the T, IME.  IF the T went through something similiar or IF your ex convinces her YOU baited her and MADE her behave badly..... that could be a problem, IME.  It happens. People are humans and Ts, IMHO,  half of them do more harm than good, IME.

My exW and co-parent to our 7yo daughter is undiagnosed but exhibits all the BPD traits. I was thinking I'd have to go through family court to stop her from harassing me and to end the badmouthing and alienation with DD, but she went ahead and made things worse for herself all on her own.   What makes you think she can pull herself together at this point?

Short story, exW was charged with a felony where I'm the victim and there's video evidence of her actions. Since a trial wouldn't rule in her favor but she has a clean record prior, the prosecutor is allowing her to get the charges dropped if she's on good behavior for a year and meets some other requirements. One of those requirements, at my request, is that she have a mental health evaluation and follow through with whatever treatment is recommended. If she fails to meet the program requirements, she's waived her right to a trial, the charges will be reinstated, and a judge will rule against her. So you see, she has plenty of incentive to do everything she's told to do.  Don't get your hopes up.   She might be pathologically unable to comply with ANYTHING. It sounds like maybe that's the case here.  What happens if she goes back in front of the Judge on those charges?  What happens if she's correctly dx'd in the forensic psych eval?  Forcing her into Therapy won't likely help much. 

I'm thinking getting your dd into Therapy is the best thing you can get out of this.  Ensure ex can't fiddle or sabotage that for your dd.

Since this evaluation is compulsory, what are the chances that she could evade detection of any mental health disorders? She has incentive to minimize or avoid any treatment being required, so I wouldn't put it past her to answer the questions dishonestly. Or do evaluators have reliable ways to see through the deception and get an accurate assessment?  I've heard the tests ask questions in so many different ways....they're set up to OUT liars.  I've also heard a good liar can get away with acing the tests from other Ts, so...... what does your gut tell you?  Do you think your ex has the ability to outsmart the tests?  Is she very smart and socially intelligent?  CAN she control herself from this position of weakness... having lost in court to you? That's really going to be on her mind, bothering here....... has she managed to pull herself together 100% since the felony charge? 

Is she seeing your dd?
Has she managed to be completely appropriate around your child?

You have a better idea of what your ex can and can't do, IMO.  What does your gut tell you?



I'll have to wait and see how it works in exW's case, but hearing anyone else's similar experience may help to calm my wandering mind.

We had a shite show T do evals on my children and both Paternal grandparets.  The grandparent's attorney manipulated the T and that T ended up doing really biased reports on all 4 of them AND making her entire report about me, I wasn't even supposed to be involved, mind you.  THEN the T asked over an over and over again for me to be evaluated, which did happen, but by that time the entire case was off the rails, which is about where yours is now. 

Once the PDs SHOW everyone who they are.... it's very difficult for them to counter all that evidence, IME.  They usually manage to manipulate ONE person out of a handful of court officers...... and it takes more than ONE person to win, IME.

In your case, your ex likely won't get anything out of Therapy, so court ordering her INTO therapy doesn't get you much more than more evidence that she's unstable and PD. 

If the T testifies the ex is unsafe for your child to see alone..... then supervised visitation might be ordered.

Do you feel your child is safe with the ex?
Do you feel supervised visitation is warranted?
Do you trust your ex around your child, at al?

What is your goal? What is you idea of best case scenario?

I'd say finding ways to stay safe, mitigate harm to my child and support the ex to be the best parent to your shared child is the very best you can hope for. 

I wouldn't let her off the hook with regard to the felony. 

I would hold her feet to the fire EVERY change I had and hope she figures out she can't get away with the things she used to get away with.

Good for you.  I'm going to look for your court thread.  Did you post about that?