Any suggestions?

[Associate of Daniel]

UNPD exH has recently been getting worse.

He has been emailing more frequently saying "Ds14 wants x..."  or "we have a family birthday on Sunday"..."so I will pick him from your place 3 hours early." or "therefore I'll keep him for an extra 2 days."

He doesn't ask if it's ok with me.  He doesn't offer to make up the time at a later date.

He just says."This is going to happen."

I only see ds14 on weekends and half the holidays.  UNPD exH is taking away more and more of ds's time with me, inch by inch.

Ds doesn't understand the ramifications of this incremental time stealing.

Normally I don't bother pulling uNPD up on his rude behaviour.  (Actually I can't recall an occasion when I have done so.)  I know it wouldn't go well if I did. He'd probably get worse.

But how do I stop this inch by inch theft?

I could put my foot down and say no. That we will stick to the court orders.

After all, since uNPD exH left 8 and a half years ago, I have arranged my activities around the court orders and/or sacrificed my family's time with ds in order to stick to them.

Why can't he do the same?

I wouldn't have a problem if it was ds asking me directly if he could have a few extra hours with his friends, and me pick him up at his friend's place.

But this is uNPD exH just expecting me to fit in with and accept his plans and decrees.

I'll speak to ds again about it, as I have touched on it before.  I might even show him the emails from his uNPD father and ask if he thinks that's the right way to communicate.

But do you have any suggestions as to how I should broach with uNPD exH the subject of the need to stick to orders, or to at least ask and discuss the situations instead of him just making decrees?

The frustrating thing is that often these "family" events are not even ds's biological family, since uNPD exH and his uNPD wife are no longer on speaking terms with them.

AOD

[HotCocoa]

I always backed up myself in case of court.  I would probably tell him:
Dear ex, you had him on (insert date) for (x amount of time).,
list all dates and times and request when you would like make-up time.
"I will take him for (insert day or hours) on (insert date) to make up some of the time that I have not been provided and have been generous to provide to you."

My ex used to try to run me over like a freight train with that stuff.  I was the one who always said no because, if you give an inch, they take a mile and keep taking.  He used to ask then one time asked and said, I know you will say no, at least you are consistent.  He knew I wasn't giving an inch.   It's too bad, he is their father, but the amount of abusive emails laced with threats to go to court was just too much.  I had to follow the rules to the letter. 

[pushit]

This pattern is very familiar to me, my exPDw follows what you describe very closely.

The best solution I've found is to stick to the schedule and not be afraid to say no when something doesn't work for me or the kids if we already had something planned during my time.  My exPDw has behaved better over time since I've told her no on a few occasions.

On the other hand, if we don't have something planned and a change in the schedule could work, I discuss it with the kids.  I lay out the options and if they want the change to happen, I allow it.  It's helped me to view it through the lens of doing something for the kids instead of accommodating my ex.  My kids appreciate it when I'm honest and upfront about things, and am willing to make something work out for them.  Keep in mind that your ex is likely making decrees to ds too, in order to get what he wants.  If you are the one that shows you're willing to hear ds, that goes a long ways in getting him to see which parent is really there to support him.

I wouldn't bother calling out your ex on his behavior.  My experience is that calling out my exPDw just makes her change tactics and become manipulative in a different way, it's not like she suddenly becomes honest and communicates better.  I've sort of had to operate in a vacuum and leave her out of decision making.  It's not the ideal way to co-parent, but it works for us.  The benefit is the kids and I have very little drama during my time, we discuss things without exPDw involved and arrive at decisions that benefit everyone.

Also, I wouldn't be afraid to show your ds an email or two, just don't make it a regular thing because it can put him in the middle.  I had a couple instances last summer where my daughter and I got crossways, she was accusing me of not following through on something (because I was told something else by exPDw).  I got fed up one day and showed her the email I had received, just to show her I wasn't lying to her.  She got quiet real quick and tears welled up in her eyes.  Then a month later another miscommunication happened and she asked me point blank to see the email from Mom, so I showed her.  She got quiet again, just looked out the window and this time she looked angry instead of hurt.  She hasn't asked since, and we get along a lot better now.  Nowadays, I approach things by saying "here's what I know" or "here's what I was told" and then we sort out our stories and make a decision together.  I never say anything bad about her Mom, I clarify the information I have and why I am making a certain decision.  Again not ideal, but it's the best response that I've found.  Our exes choose their behavior, all we can do is find the best way to mitigate the drama and damage it could cause.

[Associate of Daniel]

Thank-you, both for your replies.

I so want to just stick to the court orders.  Otherwise, what's the point in them?

I do from time to time say no to uNPD exH's demands.  The trouble is, if ds is with him and he (ex) wants him longer, he just keeps him.  Thankfully I think that's only happened a few times.

The local police have no jurisdiction and I wouldn't put ds through that anyway.

The 2nd difficulty is that ds won't stand up to his uNPD dad and uNPD smother.  They tell him what he wants and he believes it.  They tell him what to think.

So even if he and I come to an understanding of what he wants, that changes by the time I next see him.

Anyway, any more thoughts anyone?

AOD

[Penny Lane]

The way I see it you have two options, neither of them great.

The first is to let this happen. Not ideal for many reasons, and it seems like he escalates in response. But it does avoid some conflict.

The other is to put your foot down and refuse to let this happen. Say no, show up at the scheduled time or don't have DS ready when he arrives early to pick him up. The upsides are that eventually this stops the encroachment on your parenting time; the downside is the potential for extreme conflict, especially at first.

This option also requires that you be willing to call on authorities to back this up. Have police at exchanges, write to his lawyer, document his refusal to do exchanges and file in court. If you're not going to do these things, there's only so far you can go on #2 before you're back at #1 as your only choice.

The middle ground option is to say no and to refuse to participate in the encroachment of your parenting time, without escalating to other authorities. This looks like: Respond to his emails, say "no that won't work for me, we will do pickup per the plan" and follow through. You can even insist that you're going to show up to exercise your parenting time that he is threatening to withhold. Basically bluff and see if he will back down. (BM might; many others wouldn't). You could also try to work with him, for example, "You can have two extra days with DS as long as I can have two extra days on the back end. If not, I will see you at the normal pickup time." Although we've never had much success with that.

To me, the question of what if anything you say to DS is a side issue. You're not going to be short term more persuasive than his dad. Your options are to set boundaries around parenting time, or not. And what you say to DS depends on what you decide there. But you're not going to convince him that HE wants to follow the plan rather than do whatever allegedly fun thing they have scheduled for him during your parenting time. If it were us I would probably leave him out of it as much as possible rather than proactively showing him emails, especially if you pick option #1. But if we went with option #2, we would also be prepared to have a VERY angry kid needing us to explain why DH has set the boundaries he has. No matter what you do your ex will probably be trying to put him in the middle anyway.

FWIW, we've settled hard on the "no changes to the parenting plan," aka option #2, like HotCocoa. It was an extremely unpleasant journey to get here. She threw tantrums, planned birthday parties on DH's time, took the kids on trips that kept them away from DH during his parenting time, manipulated the kids to think that DH was the only thing standing between them and the most fun thing in the whole world. DH stood his ground. And ... she has not done this in a very long time. I think in the long term, taking route #2, as unpleasant as it is, leads to less conflict overall. BM has eventually learned that DH is not going to relent and let her take his time, and she has learned that if she tries to anyway there will be consequences, like having to pay her lawyer to explain to her that, yes, she has to follow the court order. DH has never called the police to get her to turn over the kids, but he has certainly been prepared to do so.

That is DH's/our choice. It might not be your choice or the best thing for you. But either way just know that your ex is not leaving you with any good options. So your job is to pick the least objectionable option/the one you can most live with. Just like so many other things, it's not fair and it's not reasonable, but it is. I'm sorry that you have to deal with this.

[mamato3]

Thank-you, both for your replies.

I so want to just stick to the court orders.  Otherwise, what's the point in them?

I do from time to time say no to uNPD exH's demands.  The trouble is, if ds is with him and he (ex) wants him longer, he just keeps him.  Thankfully I think that's only happened a few times.

The local police have no jurisdiction and I wouldn't put ds through that anyway.

The 2nd difficulty is that ds won't stand up to his uNPD dad and uNPD smother.  They tell him what he wants and he believes it.  They tell him what to think.

So even if he and I come to an understanding of what he wants, that changes by the time I next see him.

Anyway, any more thoughts anyone?

AOD

I would send them a letter (or have your lawyer do it) and say that you already have very limited time with your son, and that it is not negotiable for your ex to take more of your time. And then I would ignore any requests that come your way. He doesn't have a right to take your time. It's your time, and he is your son.

[hhaw]

AOD:

Are you apprehensive about the Ex PD and SM dragging your son into this adult discussion if you tell the PD NO?

[Associate of Daniel]

Trust me, Hhaw,  they already will have.

Things seem to have sorted themselves for this occasion.  Ds has informed me that the Sunday plan has changed to Saturday and that he is expecting his uNPD father to pick him up at the usual time.

I emailed his dad about 24 hours ago to confirm.

I've not heard a word.

I'm trying to think of something to do away from home at the time uNPD exH wanted to pick him up, so that we won't be here if he turns up at the earlier time.

AOD

[hhaw]

AOD:

Your son will grow into a man and start his own life. 

You'll be the steady, consistent mom living him through the turmoil.

The ex and wife will be the creators of that turmoil.

This too shall pass.

[athene1399]

We had difficulty with the swapping of time. My advice is to try to stick to the court order.

A third option that I don't think anyone suggested (that we tried and it honestly did not work) was saying something like "DS can go to your place two days early, but he will then have to come to my place two days early so it evens out to equal the time I spend with him per the court order". The problem we ran into with this option was that SD would text us to let us know she wasn't coming back per the switch agreement( like instead of her coming back the two days early to make it fair for us she would just stay at BM's). BM ended up getting the extra time in the end.
I hope things go well no matter what you decide.

[Associate of Daniel]

It's happened again.  Lately I feel as though the requests are coming nearly every week.

Only this time the request has come from ds14.

I've not heard from uNPD exH.

I've told ds that it's best his dad contact me and I haven't committed either way.

UNPexH and I are supposed to request such changes at least 48 hours in advance.

I'm worried that I'll get to pickup tomorrow night to find ds not there.  But I don't want to contact his dad about it.  He's supposed to do the asking, not ds.

I've really had enough of this.

AOD

[athene1399]

I am so sorry this is happening again. I found this very stressful when we went through it.

[Rose1]

He's messing with you because he can. If the police won't cone with you and have a chat about it then I only see a couple of options.  Put up with it. Ds will be voting with his feet soon.  Or go on a camping weekend, advise ex once ds is with you (48 hrs is nice otherwise just advise) that you are taking your make up time and you will drop him off when its made up. Then have some fun with ds. 

If this falls over into a screaming session you could say you are just keeping in line with what has become their practice and you intend to make up time, alternatively they can stick to the court order. In fact you can include that in the email advice.

If you think its not worth the drama then be prepared for them to escalate as ds gets older. My concern is that it appears to be an attempt to have ds brainwashed into not wanting to go with you at all.
You know your son. You could also start talking about when he's a bit older and able to decide things for himself and start making  some plans for that. Maybe something at your house that he wants friends to come over. A friend got a pool table for that. A car project is always awesome.

[Rose1]

meant to add, dont worry too much if he gets a hard time with his father. He chose that and its better if he figures it out sooner rather than later. If life becomes difficult at their house because you are keeping to the  court order I would consider not smoothing their path or trying too hard to make ds's life over there bearable. Court orders are the rules and they would be screaming if you were trying the same thing. Kids understand that.

If its calm at your place and mayhem at theirs because of their pd then that may help your son see whats really going on. At this stage he's also learning to placate and imo thats not a great lesson in future pd management