Should I ask my sister?

[Hilltop]

I am now NC with my parents and at this stage I don't want to re-engage with them.  For the past 20 years my sister has frozen me out.  She was going to be bridesmaid at my wedding but when I had a destination wedding she refused to come, didn't call me to say congratulations, nothing. My parents would have paid for her and her husband to come, they didn't have kids.  I let it go that she didn't come and moved on. I still went and saw her after she had her first two babies but when she still refused to engage I dropped the rope.  She would come down to see my parents and not call or ever suggest we get together.

I to this day don't know if I did something wrong or what caused her to completely freeze me out, I think she just doesn't like me.  I am wondering if I send her a message to ask her one time before I completely disengage from my family.  I don't think I have ever asked her outright what the reason is for completely freezing me out, it's just not talked about, we don't talk, I haven't seen her.  Years earlier I did ask about my wedding and she said she couldn't be bothered coming.

I don't want to open the door with her but it hurt me greatly.  Should I ask her what happened or why she didn't want to engage?  What should I say?  I was thinking of something like:

Hi, hope all is well with you and the family.  I understand this is completely out of the blue.  We haven't spoken in so long, close to what 15 years maybe?  I am wondering if I did anything all those years ago that hurt you?  I was wondering what the reason is behind the lack of relationship?  I understand if you simply don't enjoy the relationship, I guess I would appreciate some closure.

Hilltop

Or is it best to leave it alone?

I just want to know if I did something or if it is just in general that she doesn't like me, we got along as kids and part of me doesn't understand.  I just don't know if this is me having a moment or if there is value in being open before fully closing the door.  Thoughts?

[DistanceNotDefense]

Hi Hilltop - I had my own older sister (uNPD/uASPD) freeze me out a little bit in the same way, for about 3 years.

Before that we had been close for about four years for the first time in our lives (adult or childhood). Our relationship meant a lot to me. Everyone's relationship is different, and I'm not saying this to say it will necessarily go this way (and I don't know if you have an idea if your sister is PD or not, sounds like she at least has tendencies) - but this is just how things went when I needed closure with her.

She wanted to pick things back up almost as if nothing happened, and to rug sweep. I couldn't do that, I needed some answers as to why she'd alienated herself, and insisted we talk about it, because going through all of that over again would just be too painful. (Especially since I was moving on and ready to just let our close relationship sink into the past.)

She first denied there was distance and then when I sort of "cornered" her over her gaslighting, she caved and proceeded to gaslight more, saying the distance was all my fault. I do think that she enforced the distance not because she actually wanted it - she wanted to put me in a position of "working" for it and proving to her what lengths I would go to fix it all, so she could feel good and important. That's why she got back in touch, I think; because I was actually going to skip away for good and that's not actually what she wanted.

I guess the one difference between you and I was that I was forced into needing answers because I was being wheedled back into a relationship with her again - I think you have the option of just dropping the rope and that would be perfectly acceptable, after all that's precisely what she's doing with you.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that you could try and get closure from her, and you might succeed in bridging something and finding peace, and closure; maybe she'll tell you what went wrong, you can both work to fix it, and that would be amazing. Or you might hear from her that you never really mattered all that much to her and you can finally move on, as painful as that outcome is in its own way, but at least you'll finally know - and you'll know if the reason might just be apathy.

Or, do you think she likes keeping you in that position knowing you clearly want and desire her in your life? (PDs get off on that feeling I do feel.) I would honestly be cautious about saying "what did I do wrong? How did I hurt you?" Because it could open up a whole can of worms. It's practically inviting them to say anything they want about you, whether true or untrue but ultimately designed to guilt and hurt you, and in fact make YOU the reason for everything. That's what happened to me.

Instead I would maybe just ask - "what changed?" Reason behind lack of relationship sounds good, too - removing the cause as far away from yourself and from her as possible, to avoid blame.

With some PDs,I learned the hard way that they don't let you leave their game so easily, not without punishment. (Again, I think if my sister just had uNPD, she would have just let maybe have justwt things fade; but I think she is malignant/sociopathic and your sister may be nowhere near this scale).

Ultimately, your gut has the right answers Hilltop  and sorry of this advice is off-base or inaccurate in any way.

[Hilltop]

Thanks Distance, the change of wording is good.  I don't know if my sister is PD, when I say she is not in my life, I mean we do not speak at holidays, birthdays, on Facebook, literally nothing.  I have not heard or seen from her in years. To me it's beyond weird, it's a massive step to go NC with someone and generally there is good reason hence my wondering.  However my sister hears about me through my parents so I don't know if that is enough for her.  She has four kids and a busy life, part of me just thinks she simply doesn't care.  I feel like she has simply moved on, like I am the only one stuck in the past wondering about family relationships. She hadn't even told her kids I exist, found out through my mother who was trying to set up a dinner because my nephew wanted to meet me, he is 10 years old, I said no. That's how I know my mother lets my sister know what I'm doing, they were on a family holiday a couple of years back, my mother was telling me how she and my sister were talking about me.  That's why I think my mother knows the real story but she doesn't talk with me about it.  Perhaps maybe the loss of this relationship is simply not a big deal to her though.

However my mother didn't talk to her sister, is estranged from her now, my dad was estranged from his brother their entire life, asked family not to tell dad when he died, he didn't want him at his funeral and his sister for the majority of their life and now my sister and I have continued the dynamic.  My mother is at the centre of it all or so it seems.

I don't want a relationship with my sister any more.  Perhaps maybe my healing will need to be done within.  Perhaps asking is only drama although that's not my intention.  My intention is closure.  The more I think on it, the more perhaps I just need to heal this for me.  I am on the outer with the whole family, I am the scapegoat, its always been this way.  This is probably one more area I need to heal for myself.  I probably won't get closure from my sister. I need to rest on this some more, I think.

[DistanceNotDefense]

I don't want a relationship with my sister any more.  Perhaps maybe my healing will need to be done within.  Perhaps asking is only drama although that's not my intention.  My intention is closure.  The more I think on it, the more perhaps I just need to heal this for me.  I am on the outer with the whole family, I am the scapegoat, its always been this way.  This is probably one more area I need to heal for myself.  I probably won't get closure from my sister. I need to rest on this some more, I think.

I really relate to this. I mean, maybe you will get closure talking to her. I have no idea what your sister is like.

Having one last conversation (like I did) and still having everything go horribly wrong and get blamed on you is still a type of closure. It showed me a lot but damn, was it painful!

It helped cement some very important truths, though. I mean, I knew they were true somewhere deep inside, but really needed them to be nailed into my psyche (plus I deal with a very covert FOO that's passive-aggressive all the time, but really nasty when confronted, learning the "truth" would be painful no matter what).

It's all down to you and what you feel is truth or not deep inside - being truthful and vulnerable with PDs (and their enablers, your sister possibly) just risks hurt and pain though, is all; but it can be worth it to learn something new.

Is there something new to learn here? That's what I'd ask myself. Your gut and instincts know the situation better than anyone here. If you're really not sure, getting closure is not wrong. If you already feel like there's nothing left to salvage with sis though, then maybe you already know. However, her lack of relationship with you IS weird and bizarre if you don't think there is any solid reason. And these same feelings were what impelled me to my confrontation. They're really hard to ignore.

From what you describe though, it does sound like there are some secrets passed between your sister and mother that concern you. And maybe that is part of the cause of the distance, is some gossip and triangulation. Perhaps your parents (esp. M) worked you and her apart with non-truths. Maybe you'll hear a version from that from your sister. I mean, that is precisely what happened with all my family members after I confronted my sister as I described in the message above - they just distanced themselves in a shunning way, my uNPD/ASPD sis ran straight to them with smears right afterwards. I confronted them later but it was to inform them of "NC" ("I need some space at this time") but in my case, my heart knew the answer. There wasn't closure exactly because learning that closure right now would be too painful to me.

If I had the strength and boundaries though, I'd probably do it, but I'd need a lot of time to heal. Maybe you're at that point, though, Hilltop - if the truth is difficult (or even if it is not) maybe you're ready to handle it! Only you know.

[Hilltop]

Thanks Distance, your family sounds very much like mine, covert passive aggressive however they can't have a conversation if asked about something they just get aggressive.

I do know that my mother and my sister have not only talked about me but laughed about me as well.  My mother has passed along conversations where I should have known something and that they were laughing at me for not knowing.  I do know my mother has outright lied about me and my sister confronted me, I did tell her it was all lies but I really think the damage is done, which is why I say there is no future for us.  My sister gets money and presents from my parents.  My parents take them on paid vacations with them, its a running joke with DH that we are still waiting for dinner let alone a vacation.  Although my parents have made it obvious they don't enjoy spending time with us, early in our marriage we asked if they wanted to do dinner once a month with each other, we got told no.  We laugh about it now but yeah, charming, they can't even handle once a month seeing us.  At this time my sister made some random comment that I was jealous of her for having babies another lie by my mother.

In fact when I think back more my sister has enabled the whole scapegoat thing, last time we visited many many years ago she was so rude that DH said he wouldn't visit again. I visited on my own to see her after she had her first two children but when she still didn't tell me she was pregnant with the next two I just ghosted from the relationship.  She hadn't told me she was pregnant with the first two either but I ignored that and tried to build bridges, it didn't work.

The more I think about it the more I think my mother has a huge role.  I remember when we all had dinner and DH and I had just come back from our first holiday to Europe.  I started talking about it and my sister changed the conversation to talk about how annoying it was her dog brought dirt in from the rear yard into their house, this is not a joke.  I later mentioned to my mother how weird it was.  The next time we all got together my mother and my sister both turned to me and said "how you are, tell us all about you" then looked at each other and smirked.  It was really obvious and I was so hurt. That was the last time we all got together, I stopped going after that.  I to this day don't think it was a bad thing that I wanted to talk about my trip to Europe.  Again thinking about it now, that's what PD's do, they try to ruin good things for you.

I think one thing that stands out for me is the smear campaign.  I do know my sister will go running to my mother and tell her.  It is thinking of that that gives me pause.  No I am not in a place to deal with that. 

I also noted what you said about my sister maybe enjoying the feeling that I want a relationship and she is rejecting me.  I hadn't thought of that but I did mention to my mother many times that I didn't understand it, that it bothered me, now I think my mother most likely used that in conversation with my sister as well to cause problems.

You mention shunning and that's what I feel with my sister.  I feel shunned.  I think that's why I mentioned in my first post that its ok for my sister, she hears all my news via my mother, she doesn't need to bother talking to me, she hears the gossip anyhow.  I know when I have showed photo's of my holidays to my parents my mother has taken a few and sent them on without me knowing at the time, she told me about it later.  But shunned yes, I have never thought of it that way and yet that's exactly what it feels like.

Thank you so much, I don't feel the need for closure from my sister anymore.  I think the smear campaign, knowing that they will again gossip, mock me and laugh about me doesn't feel good for me.  Now that I can look at the situation as shunning it feels so much clearer to me.

At the moment being NC with my parents I feel safe from the mocking.  The thought of being mocked again sends shivers of fear through me so I am not going to reach out to my sister, I am going to heal myself.  My sister is nearly 50, if she and I haven't gotten past whatever by now, well its unlikely its going to happen.  I really think this is my old pattern re-emerging, going to talk to my family and expecting a different outcome.  There won't be a different outcome so thank you for your response Distance, I got so much out of your thoughts.  I need to heal this within for me, that much is clear.

[Hilltop]

Wanted to add Distance shunning explains after my grandparents funeral and my parents, my sister and her husband all went out for dinner and didn't invite my husband and I. I could always understand not getting invited to dinner at normal times but after a funeral seemed really low.  We have mobile phones and no one ever called.  This has always confused me but I have read a little on shunning and that is exactly what my family has done, it fits in with the scapegoating.

I am so happy I am NC with all of them.  I have a lot of emotion about it but that's ok, it's good its coming out, finally.  I can't express my gratitude enough, for me it's a lightbulb moment.

[Hilltop]

Ok so I sent my sister a message saying how I felt, I did mention that our parents have been estranged with all their siblings and that it is dysfunctional and that I was sorry we couldn't move past that and that we didn't break the cycle.  I mentioned that I felt shunned by her and that I see my friends all around me with age and maturity finding some level of sibling relationships and that its a shame we couldn't do that.

I also told her that I hope all her kids do better and break the cycle.  I also said I was moving on from a family I don't belong in, am shunned in and don't fit into.  I also said I was at peace.  I also said I hope she understand that mom has probably lied about me and that it's a shame if that impacted our relationship. 

I get it may seem dramatic.  I get it may sound crazy but I said my piece, I spoke my truth, it is so hurtful to be shunned for no reason at all and I never deserved it.  I can move on knowing that I said all I needed to say.  It feels really good to have said to her, hey you shunned me for 15 years and that is dysfunctional, its not normal and its a shame we didn't do better.  It feels so good to call her out and let her know that her shunning is not hurtful but dysfunctional.  Of course I said it in neutral terms but message sent, this was for me, not her.

She will think what she wants, most likely laugh about it with mom but underneath, the truth does shine through.  Perhaps tomorrow I will regret this but I want to stand up for me, no one else in the family ever did and I have kept quiet for 15 years with her.  I am so done with all of it and this was I suppose my moment to say my piece.  So far I feel good, I feel really good to say "f" you.  I have written about it and journaled but it still ate away at me, to say it to her, I feel good, really good because meh, who cares what she thinks, there is nothing she can do that will hurt more than shunning me for 15 years and me not understanding why.

Now, now I can move on.  I don't want anything more from her.

[DistanceNotDefense]

Wow! That's fantastic Hilltop. I was hoping I wasn't projecting too much of my experience onto yours, but I'm glad you got something from my own thoughts and experiences....

I think that's the perfect message to send and then walk away for good, head held high. If they're anything like my FOO though they would talk and analyze that message of yours to bits, not get the real messages and then try to suck you back in with the knowledge and smug satisfaction that they "got to you" (stuff like that makes my FOO feel good) and hope for more of the same from you. I hope your FOO is not like that. And don't let them suck you back in!

But wow, talk about giving you the cold shoulder for years. And of course you should be excited to share your trip to Europe! That's all infuriating. If bringing up how you feel disrespected only brings more disrespect, what else can you do?

That is out and out scapegoating for sure. And sounds soooooo much like what my FOO was putting me through, I couldn't stand it. They hadn't always treated me like that in my adult life (definitely so as a child), but the heel-turn was jarring. Like you I sent one last email to my M ("relationship with UNPD/uASPD sis is unsafe at this time, and how do you propose to fix relations with your son in law?") and walked away. (She did email back to gaslight and rug sweep the whole situation  )

I can't even bring myself to contact them, though I do love them so. I'm not sure when or if it'll sink in that the ball is in their court but it's just not my problem anymore. They have a lot to figure out among themselves and I just couldn't be their convenient little scapegoat crutch any longer.

I'm glad you made an empowering decision, Hilltop  You and your husband deserve peace and feeling good about yourselves...and welcome in the lives of people you love!

[Hilltop]

Thanks Distance.  I ended up unsending my message on Facebook (private message).  I did that before I read your reply. I know it wasn't read as it was still showing the tick to show sent but not read. It now comes up unsent. I know I'm a mess, lol.  I did send an email to my parents before I went NC to say I needed space, it was simple and to the point and I was happy with it however they were still in my life so I felt it was necessary.

My sister isn't in my life and I started to feel that since we don't have any contact that saying anything probably isn't necessary. Perhaps I may write some pages out for myself, it certainly felt good getting it out but deep down I don't want a relationship with her, I don't trust her anymore and so I guess there is no point in saying anything to her.

I'm sorry you went through being scapegoated, ugh it's so harsh isn't it.  It's good that you walked away and it's good that you know the ball is in their court.

I am glad though that when I think of my sister I can finally understand her behaviour, which is shunning me, that has helped me a lot.  The why is still unknown and whether there is an actual reason or she simply didn't feel she had anything in common with me who knows and honestly it probably doesn't matter now anyway, so much time has lapsed.  However she has been unkind and I really don't need that in my life, well not that I have a choice she has removed herself from my life, but I want to accept it. I don't want anything from her, what I want is for me to feel at peace with it.   I think I am just in a little down period with this whole thing but that's ok, it comes in waves.

Thank you for your kind words, they mean a lot.

[nanotech]

Writing it down has been enough for you. I'm glad that you didn't send it in the end.
They just don't get it. They live in denial, and they think we should too.
The need to make them see was what kept me going back for years- to finally make them stop.
But they enjoy the game so much. They can only view us from afar, and they don't really see US. They just see a rival. They see a rival who is expected to enable their power and not hamper it by erecting boundaries. So no, they don't want to hear about any lovely trips abroad.
We are are their family, but  instead of feeling happy and interested  when we enjoy our lives, they merely want to throw rocks.

I've been there with the shunning. With the total disinterest in and blatant disregard for my life adventures and any good news I might bring to the table.
If they had  no way to avoid acknowledging something positive about me, then they'd come up with a negative reason for that change, accompanied by a sea of smirks.
I don't miss seeing them. They are not my family.
I don't belong there.
It takes courage to accept their non ability to change. It's painful as hell. It's like shedding a skin that scrapes and scalds as it leaves your body.
But then there's a newness.

[Hilltop]

Thanks Nanotech, I never viewed it as shunning and yet that's exactly the behaviour and sometimes it has been shunning on purpose, not something that could be explained away as oh I simply forgot.

I suppose I have spent so much time looking at my parents I didn't really think too much about my sister.  I have this image in my head that she and I would be close if we simply got back to talking again but then reality is seeing her smirk with my mom, her sending me a vile text out of the blue calling me pathetic and telling me I didn't know how to treat family all because mom told her I did something that I didn't.  When I told her I didn't do it, she didn't apologise, when I asked mom about it her answer was that she had assumed I had done it.  No apology.  I still struggle to clearly see her and I and what our actual relationship is/was.  My gut tells me it isn't as nice as I believe it to be.

Its the games as well, when my sister did finally travel overseas I saw it on Facebook, my parents didn't tell me this news and I have no idea why, when I made a comment about it, they were surprised I knew.  It's just all so odd and I don't understand much of it and what it means. 

I do sense a rivalry there with my sister though.  My sister has exactly what my friends have, I feel happy for them however with my sister I feel a need to keep up or compare myself and I don't want to be like that.  I do think my mother encourage this, when we were younger she use to make comments that we would go off together and gossip and she missed out.  Now all communication goes through my mother and my relationship with my sister is ruined.  In some ways I'll never forgive my mother for creating that, in other ways I see my sister as a mini version of my mother, the same attention seeking behaviour, they both put me down.

I guess yes this is one more layer that needs to be dealt with, its a ton more painful than my parents which I find odd.  I hope I can find peace with this lost relationship because even if my sister were to come back she has never been honest or open, she was a closed book, she may be open with others but not me.  I don't know if I felt the rivalry alone and I was the SG and she distanced herself from that or she was the GC and played into putting me down and enjoyed being the star in the family.  That's how my DH see's it, the very last time we were invited to Christmas my husband said he didn't want to go sit in the corner while the whole family fawns over my sister, as he said, that's what always happens when went to dinner with them, we get ignored and my sister runs around on centre stage.  I guess at some point it will become clearer.  My sister and I are different and I want to enjoy being me without feeling that comparison to my sister, however that's on me to sort out.

Thanks for listening/reading.

[DistanceNotDefense]

I think I am just in a little down period with this whole thing but that's ok, it comes in waves.

Thank you for your kind words, they mean a lot.

I am kind of there too, Hilltop, and I relate. A hug if you need one

I think there is empowerment in either decision, sending or not sending the message. Only you know what is right, and I think the more important decision is the disconnection from dissatisfying relationships in your own head and heart, and whatever action you feel you need to take to feel safe and loving of yourself from within.

It takes courage to accept their non ability to change. It's painful as hell. It's like shedding a skin that scrapes and scalds as it leaves your body.
But then there's a newness.

Wow this is beautiful nanotech. I actually had to write this down!

[Hilltop]

I'm sorry you are going through a down period too Distance, it isn't much fun.  I don't want to ignore it though so I seem to let myself wallow in it a little to get it all out.  In saying that it does seem to work in getting the emotion out.

The need to make them see was what kept me going back for years- to finally make them stop.
I've been there with the shunning. With the total disinterest in and blatant disregard for my life adventures and any good news I might bring to the table.
If they had  no way to avoid acknowledging something positive about me, then they'd come up with a negative reason for that change, accompanied by a sea of smirks.
It takes courage to accept their non ability to change. It's painful as hell. It's like shedding a skin that scrapes and scalds as it leaves your body.
But then there's a newness. 

How true.  I spend time looking into the past trying to analyse it, trying to understand it.  Really the sad fact is that there is a non ability to change.  I suppose I see my friends who didn't get along with their sisters in their younger years and they have all grown up, matured, moved past it and I have looked at my own family and thought, what is going on, why haven't we moved past this, why are we still having the same issues, why are things still so hurtful.

My parents are late 70's and still doing the same old tired dance.  When exactly do I think things are going to change.  That time has passed.

My sister has shown complete disinterest and a total disregard for anything good in my life or even just my life.  At some point that is not about me, that is her, that is her decision, why do I own that as my own failing.

I won't know the why of this whole thing but I really have to accept that total disregard my sister has for me.  I did not start it but at some point I made the decision to respect her apparent wishes and I stayed away, the door was open however she has not walked through it.  Its time to accept that, without her acceptance of me a relationship is not possible. I also need to accept that her disregard is about her and not me.

It is time to leave their opinions with them.  It is time to really understand in all these years I haven't been able to make them see or understand me.  I haven't been able to effect change or manage a relationship with them.  I have not found that one thing that makes a difference.  Its time for me to understand its not on me to fix, its not on me to change, its not on me to accept hurtful behaviour.  They are all living their lives as they like, its time for me to do the same. 

I have walked away and I am grappling with my self esteem.  I am tired of having to deal with those hurt emotions after I see my parents, I am tired of telling my parents I don't want to hear about my sister and they talk about her more.  Essentially I am done.  Although I get down I do feel glimmers of relief and I want to let go of those smirks and putdowns.  I don't want to go back, I don't want that in my life.  I look forward to the newness.

[Chrysanthemum]

I have this image in my head that she and I would be close if we simply got back to talking again but then reality is seeing her smirk with my mom, her sending me a vile text out of the blue calling me pathetic and telling me I didn't know how to treat family all because mom told her I did something that I didn't.  When I told her I didn't do it, she didn't apologise, when I asked mom about it her answer was that she had assumed I had done it.  No apology.  I still struggle to clearly see her and I and what our actual relationship is/was.  My gut tells me it isn't as nice as I believe it to be.

Hilltop, I have been following you over a few threads and just want to say again how much I relate, you're not off about any of this and this isn't your fault. I have listened to my en-MIL tell me "I only hang out with my FUN children like you!" to pick on one of my SILs who "works too much" (yeah, she's working hard to support her family, leave her alone), and it made me wonder just what she says about me when I'm not there... until the smear campaign started and she started saying it out loud. The smirking happens all the time. Smirk about you when I'm not there, smirk about me when you're not there. Eventually they don't get validated enough and so they don't bother to be secretive about it anymore. PDs and their enablers have no appreciation of nuance, they decide to have a poor opinion of you and then nothing can change it. I'm so sorry you're going through this.

[Hilltop]

Thanks to everyone.  I feel I have turned a corner.  My sister has made it clear that she doesn't want a relationship, I stepped back and respected that decision many years ago however I didn't deal with the hurt from that.  I have now started to heal from that hurt and realise that I will be ok.

When I look back at my sisters behaviour I see how horrible it was and that I didn't deserve that.  I don't respect my sister for the things she has done and see that her behaviour is really about her.  I am no longer taking it on board and feeling like I must have done something to deserve it, I really didn't. 

I am finally moving forward and leaving that era in the past.  I guess I thought at some stage we would move beyond it but I now see its not possible and I am ok with that.  I don't trust her enough to have her back in my life and that's my decision now, so its done.  I will grieve that loss but I won't go back and I feel good about that.

[AlisonWonder]

It sounds very hard and confusing.  My suggestion is, to stay NC with your parents and your sister, until your parents have passed away.  You *might* then find that your parents have been setting you both up and you can be friends.  In the meantime, you won't be supplying any fresh "ammunition" to alienate your sister.

I think this might be why it bothers you so much - one day our siblings become "all we have". 

I hope things get better for you.