I suspect a request for a deathbed apology is coming...

DaisyGirl77 · March 06, 2021, 10:46:54 PM

Quick recap: I'm NC with eF's mother, going on 8 years now. Same for eF's brother & his child. Story in my signature. EF's mother has been in an ALF for something like 3? Maybe 4? years now. He mentions her every once in a great while in passing: things like "I have a meeting with my mom's ALF to discuss her complaints." or "She calls me at 1 or 2 AM sometimes." Stuff like that. I never respond other than an "oh" & change the subject. I've also never brought her up, & she's never been a major topic of conversation.

That being said, he told me shortly after she'd been placed in this facility that she'd started showing her Mr. Hyde side to the staff there & said that they were documenting all of her outbursts & explosions. That was the last I heard about this until a couple days ago when I decided to ask if they'd ever given this behavior of hers an actual name. (I called because I had been doing some research on a possible topic for my public speaking class' paper--"rates of PD in the elderly". It didn't pan out, btw, so I'm still looking for a topic. Any will do, so if you've got any ideas, leave 'em for me.

)

He told me they never did. (Damn.) Apparently her tantrums eased off after a long while & she's been "behaving". Then came the kicker.

He said that his mother asks after me from time to time.

Wut?

"I think it's because she never sees your sisters."

Ummm... "Maybe she's feeling that good ol' Catholic guilt & is sorry for what she did to me."

He looked thunderstruck at that idea. Like, c'mon. How can that NOT come across your mind, Dad?

I must've looked extremely uncomfortable with the idea that she knows stuff about me because he reassured me that he only tells her generalities about me ("She's doing fine.", etc.) & never anything specific. I'm still pretty damn uncomfortable with the knowledge that she continues to ask about me.

I discussed this with Sis2 & a trusted friend & came to the conclusion in my thread title. Then I had to really consider it. What if my father said his mother wanted to apologize to me? What if he said his brother wanted to apologize to me? What would my answer be? His family is extremely Catholic so I'm pretty sure that one would be coming at some point. His mother's somewhere in her 80s, I think. (I've deliberately not kept track of her age when I left so I wouldn't know. She was born in 1934 so y'all do the math cuz I ain't, lol.) I ended up with this.

All this is stated with a flat "that's final" kind of tone, mind. Nothing more.

1. My house is my haven; my sanctuary. I don't want her seeing even a *tiny* part of my house. Not even a blank white wall. I wouldn't even take it at someone else's house or even outside somewhere. I'd lose the peace I've found here in my home, even if it took place on Facetime, & no amount of smudging my house or phone would help me regain my sense of security & safety here.

2. If she wanted to apologize, I'd see it as manipulation. "You wouldn't forgive me, your grandmother, so I can die with peace of mind & enter Heaven?" It's another thing she'd demand to take from me "for her" (that's her major thing: she wants people to "do for me" & this is a constant refrain of hers), & that's over. She won't get the absolution she wants from me. She can prostrate herself at the feet of her god. I want no part of this nonsense.

3. It wouldn't even be them recognizing their serious error & issuing a sincere apology. For me, it'd be them realizing that "Shiiiiiiit, the Church says I need to gain forgiveness from everyone I've wronged before I can walk through the pearly gates so I'mma give a false apology real quick. Kthxbye!"

4. I don't want to see her. Ever. She lost her opportunity ages ago. No "sorry" or expression of regret--real or false--will undo all the damage she & her family did. They broke me irrevocably. I'm slowly turning into a phoenix from the rubble, but it's been a long, hard 8 years, guys. They'll get nothing from me.

5. Her lack of planning doesn't constitute an emergency on mine. Her monkeys are not my problem.

I have to admit that a small part of me is curious to hear what they have to say, but my need for protection, safety, security &, hell, staying away from the abusers who wrecked so much of me takes priority over everything else. Being retraumatized all over again, all so they can take one more thing from me isn't going to happen. So...

No, thanks. They can stew in their own juices & die without my participation. Her god can forgive her if he wants & if he demands an explanation from her. She won't get it from me. I've (mostly) let it go, but forgiveness/absolution isn't in the cards for them.

I know this topic comes up for a lot of people, so I figured I'd share my conclusion.

Thru the Rain · March 07, 2021, 01:35:37 AM

I love your thoughts and boundaries. I think you will be well-served as this situation with your grandmother and uncle and other family member unfolds. And I think you have the basis for some long-term boundaries for anyone who you allow into your life. I'm so sad that your extended family has been so toxic for you!

Having said all that, when I read the title of your post, I was thinking in the completely opposite direction. That there would be a demand that YOU apologize since "Grandma doesn't have long now..." Seriously that's what I thought.

I've read your back story before and I don't think YOU have anything to apologize for. But I'm also sure that your grandmother probably wouldn't see a family rift as her fault or her responsibility to heal. So it must be someone else's fault - and guess who candidate #1 is?

I don't know your grandmother and I could be completely off base here, but you may want to put similar thought into not only why you won't accept an apology but also why you won't be ISSUING an apology either.

Call Me Cordelia · March 07, 2021, 07:17:15 AM

I thought the same as Thru the Rain... although you're right on with your thoughts about how your grandmother's eternal peace could easily be spun to be YOUR responsibility. If your father was thunderstruck at the idea of HER being sorry... well who else could be held responsible?

I'm a Catholic too, and I'm so so sorry that your family's hypocrisy has hurt you so. My parents are "super Catholic" too. In the choir, various committees, daily Mass even. Our Lord has his harshest condemnations for those Pharisees who pretend to be holy but in reality are utterly selfish.

I'm guessing you no longer practice, but just for the record, we only have one Judge in Catholic belief. Your forgiveness or lack of it cannot give her absolution with the Lord. You are absolutely not responsible for her peace of mind.

I'm in a similar place with my own parents. There are things which simply will not be "fixed" in this world. Forgiveness is a tricky thing. I like to keep clear the distinction between forgiveness and reconciliation. I would like to give my parents forgiveness, for myself, but I will never tell them so and I do not intend to be reconciled, I.e. be back in a relationship with them. When we forgive we no longer allow the offense to have power over us. But it takes a while. I know I'm not there. I am still unpacking what actually there is to forgive and facing how I've been hurt. A cheap, "Yes I forgive everything," doesn't really mean much.

Anyway, I hope my thoughts are relevant to your situation. I think your boundaries make perfect sense, and I wish you peace.

Starboard Song · March 07, 2021, 08:42:21 AM

Call Me Cordelia is spot on:

QuoteI like to keep clear the distinction between forgiveness and reconciliation.

I too support your basic set of principles and boundaries. I encourage everyone to think of this apology and acceptance question in three different ways.

1. Your physical audience for her, allowing her to speak her mind or peace. Hopefully, more of the latter.
2. Your response to any statement of apology, in whatever format.
3. Your behavior subsequent to such an apology / response event.

Physical Audience
If someone is truly on their deathbed, in their last hours, there are many among us who -- when it is verifiably the last hours -- would truly want to make that bedside appearance. To get a sort of closure. My wife and I are not in that crowd, so I don't mean to endorse it. But this is the important thing: your boundaries all this time have been rightly by you and for you. If at any time, especially in a genuine moment of a deathbed apology, you personally were to feel a desire to be in person -- if any of y'all reading this ever felt that desire -- it is not weak or undisciplined to make that visit. You own your boundaries and it is decent and right of you to continue to respect yourself, even if it is sometimes a path of a little inconsistency.

Immediate Response
A stranger asked me on the sidewalk this morning how I was doing: not two hours ago. I was in a dark mood, and not at all happy. "Doing well, sir! And yourself?" It was a free courtesy. He kindly asked a question that really meant "I come in good will." And I gave a dishonest answer that really meant "me too." It think many of us overlook the reality that apology / response events are about like that, sometimes. Or can be.

Five years into NC, we have now received what probably passes my MIL's mind as an apology, though it was a less than stellar specimen of the species. If she ever made a genuine, heartfelt apology, or if she even made another piss-poor attempt but from her deathbed, I can tell you I'd be inclined to write a letter in response (for we won't be in person, I think), letting her know that we appreciate her message, and we understand she is in ill health. That we encourage her to be at peace. That whatever happened in recent years, she accomplished many great things as a mother and grandmother, and nothing will take that away from her.

Again, there are those with less moral flexibility than myself who may grimace at that idea: "but I don't feel that charitable!" Well, I didn't give a damn about the guy I passed on my walk. And also, that's cool. No pressure to respond like that. But I think it is worth acknowledging that our response to a genuine deathbed/last days event can be treated like a meaningless courtesy moment, and many of us will achieve a bit of peace by granting the courtesy. And that whatever we choose to say, it is unrelated to....

Subsequent Behavior
If my MIL wrote that perfect apology, and if we responded as generously as I mocked up above, I wouldn't then change a thing. Their email addresses would remain blocked, I'd still not accept their mail, and we'd not contact them. Our boundaries -- our NC decision -- is not about whether we accept an apology. Our boundaries aren't about punishment, anger, or hostility at all. Our NC is a regrettably necessary decision because they can be reliably counted upon to make boundaries unadministerable. And an apology on a Tuesday wouldn't change that truth. I can genuinely accept a perfect apology, even, without giving any serious consideration to otherwise breaking NC. I could happily write that nice response, and then -- a week later -- decline to visit, with a last written statement to clarify that our policy remains unchanged.

***

I lay all this out here because we are a community, and people with different needs read these threads. Some people need to show up for that apology. Maybe for religious reasons. Maybe because of other family obligations. Maybe just for some missing closure. And some people need to show generosity and grace when it is reqested with humility: same reasons. Whatever needs some of us have in those departments, it needn't mean that we doubt, question, or invalidate our boundaries.

You are so right: her circus, her monkeys. It sounds like you are strong and confident, and I am ever so glad.

Be strong. Be good. And godspeed to you.

Amadahy · March 07, 2021, 09:28:37 AM

Hi Daisygirl,

You are so brave and wise to not PD-up your home! I made the biggest mistake of my life letting Nmom move into our home in 2016 for six months and had not felt the same about my safe, homey-home since. However, sweet DH just did a total remodel of our kitchen, spare room, spare bath, and livingroom (the areas she frequented) because they needed it and to drive out the bad juju with his loving gift. Thank goodness it worked -- the space is so different and fresh now, but it was a lot to go through to try to feel better again.

Peace and mad respect to you. I wish I had learned to protect myself sooner.

DaisyGirl77 · March 07, 2021, 08:42:06 PM

Quote from: Thru the Rain on March 07, 2021, 01:35:37 AM
I love your thoughts and boundaries. I think you will be well-served as this situation with your grandmother and uncle and other family member unfolds. And I think you have the basis for some long-term boundaries for anyone who you allow into your life. I'm so sad that your extended family has been so toxic for you!

Having said all that, when I read the title of your post, I was thinking in the completely opposite direction. That there would be a demand that YOU apologize since "Grandma doesn't have long now..." Seriously that's what I thought.

I've read your back story before and I don't think YOU have anything to apologize for. But I'm also sure that your grandmother probably wouldn't see a family rift as her fault or her responsibility to heal. So it must be someone else's fault - and guess who candidate #1 is?

I don't know your grandmother and I could be completely off base here, but you may want to put similar thought into not only why you won't accept an apology but also why you won't be ISSUING an apology either.

Holy shit, Thru the Rain. I let out some choice swears upon reading your post. If she dares to suggest to my father that, I hope he doesn't think to bring it to me because I will absolutely rip him a whole new asshole for him to poop from. Absofuckinglutely never gonna happen.

*ahem*

Lol. Thank you for your post & your support. It was very much appreciated.

DaisyGirl77 · March 07, 2021, 08:56:14 PM

Quote from: Call Me Cordelia on March 07, 2021, 07:17:15 AM
I thought the same as Thru the Rain... although you're right on with your thoughts about how your grandmother's eternal peace could easily be spun to be YOUR responsibility. If your father was thunderstruck at the idea of HER being sorry... well who else could be held responsible?

I'm a Catholic too, and I'm so so sorry that your family's hypocrisy has hurt you so. My parents are "super Catholic" too. In the choir, various committees, daily Mass even. Our Lord has his harshest condemnations for those Pharisees who pretend to be holy but in reality are utterly selfish.

I'm guessing you no longer practice, but just for the record, we only have one Judge in Catholic belief. Your forgiveness or lack of it cannot give her absolution with the Lord. You are absolutely not responsible for her peace of mind.

I'm in a similar place with my own parents. There are things which simply will not be "fixed" in this world. Forgiveness is a tricky thing. I like to keep clear the distinction between forgiveness and reconciliation. I would like to give my parents forgiveness, for myself, but I will never tell them so and I do not intend to be reconciled, I.e. be back in a relationship with them. When we forgive we no longer allow the offense to have power over us. But it takes a while. I know I'm not there. I am still unpacking what actually there is to forgive and facing how I've been hurt. A cheap, "Yes I forgive everything," doesn't really mean much.

Anyway, I hope my thoughts are relevant to your situation. I think your boundaries make perfect sense, and I wish you peace.

Thank you, Cordelia. I wish you peace as well as you unpack all of your own hurts & scars & traumas. I do not know if I will ever forgive them for what they did. At this point, no. How could I? They utterly annihilated the relationship I thought I had with my uncle & my grandmother & my cousin. All of the love, acceptance, & friendship that I thought I had with them were revealed to be nothing more than a fraud. Through their own actions, I lost my relatives. Through my father's actions, I lost the respect I held for him. He chose his family over his daughter, & in so doing, he revealed a deep character flaw that I don't know that I can ever forget. If I sit with the enormity of this for too long I get really emotional. How could they have done this? It blows my mind.

I was never a Catholic. My parents hauled us to church after church after church, looking for their church home & searching for the right religion for them. They also engaged in some serious spiritual abuse that they thought would drive me closer to God but actually drove me AWAY from him. Very firmly so. "God" gives me the heebie jeebies because of all they did, & I am militantly anti-church & anti-religion. (I don't espouse my beliefs unless I'm asked & only with the caveat of having this gigantic wound here, lol. I'm happy for people who have found comfort and a home in their faith, but it's not for me. I walk the Pagan path instead & have experienced the Divine love through my practice of Reiki.

)

DaisyGirl77 · March 07, 2021, 09:03:34 PM

Quote from: Starboard Song on March 07, 2021, 08:42:21 AM
Call Me Cordelia is spot on:
QuoteI like to keep clear the distinction between forgiveness and reconciliation.

I too support your basic set of principles and boundaries. I encourage everyone to think of this apology and acceptance question in three different ways.

1. Your physical audience for her, allowing her to speak her mind or peace. Hopefully, more of the latter.
2. Your response to any statement of apology, in whatever format.
3. Your behavior subsequent to such an apology / response event.

Physical Audience
If someone is truly on their deathbed, in their last hours, there are many among us who -- when it is verifiably the last hours -- would truly want to make that bedside appearance. To get a sort of closure. My wife and I are not in that crowd, so I don't mean to endorse it. But this is the important thing: your boundaries all this time have been rightly by you and for you. If at any time, especially in a genuine moment of a deathbed apology, you personally were to feel a desire to be in person -- if any of y'all reading this ever felt that desire -- it is not weak or undisciplined to make that visit. You own your boundaries and it is decent and right of you to continue to respect yourself, even if it is sometimes a path of a little inconsistency.

Immediate Response
A stranger asked me on the sidewalk this morning how I was doing: not two hours ago. I was in a dark mood, and not at all happy. "Doing well, sir! And yourself?" It was a free courtesy. He kindly asked a question that really meant "I come in good will." And I gave a dishonest answer that really meant "me too." It think many of us overlook the reality that apology / response events are about like that, sometimes. Or can be.

Five years into NC, we have now received what probably passes my MIL's mind as an apology, though it was a less than stellar specimen of the species. If she ever made a genuine, heartfelt apology, or if she even made another piss-poor attempt but from her deathbed, I can tell you I'd be inclined to write a letter in response (for we won't be in person, I think), letting her know that we appreciate her message, and we understand she is in ill health. That we encourage her to be at peace. That whatever happened in recent years, she accomplished many great things as a mother and grandmother, and nothing will take that away from her.

Again, there are those with less moral flexibility than myself who may grimace at that idea: "but I don't feel that charitable!" Well, I didn't give a damn about the guy I passed on my walk. And also, that's cool. No pressure to respond like that. But I think it is worth acknowledging that our response to a genuine deathbed/last days event can be treated like a meaningless courtesy moment, and many of us will achieve a bit of peace by granting the courtesy. And that whatever we choose to say, it is unrelated to....

Subsequent Behavior
If my MIL wrote that perfect apology, and if we responded as generously as I mocked up above, I wouldn't then change a thing. Their email addresses would remain blocked, I'd still not accept their mail, and we'd not contact them. Our boundaries -- our NC decision -- is not about whether we accept an apology. Our boundaries aren't about punishment, anger, or hostility at all. Our NC is a regrettably necessary decision because they can be reliably counted upon to make boundaries unadministerable. And an apology on a Tuesday wouldn't change that truth. I can genuinely accept a perfect apology, even, without giving any serious consideration to otherwise breaking NC. I could happily write that nice response, and then -- a week later -- decline to visit, with a last written statement to clarify that our policy remains unchanged.

***

I lay all this out here because we are a community, and people with different needs read these threads. Some people need to show up for that apology. Maybe for religious reasons. Maybe because of other family obligations. Maybe just for some missing closure. And some people need to show generosity and grace when it is reqested with humility: same reasons. Whatever needs some of us have in those departments, it needn't mean that we doubt, question, or invalidate our boundaries.

You are so right: her circus, her monkeys. It sounds like you are strong and confident, and I am ever so glad.

Be strong. Be good. And godspeed to you.

Thank you for your post, Starboard. It's a great reminder for everyone who reads my thread that my decision isn't necessarily going to be theirs. I hope they're able to find their own path & find their peace. I also wish you continued peace as you continue along your path.

I sound strong & confident, but I am a bowl full of jelly on the inside at the idea of ever seeing her & the rest of them again, lol. After all they put me through, the one thing I am absolutely crystal clear on is that my first priority will always be to myself. What will protect me and shield me from more damage? What can I do to ensure that my peace, stability, security, my home, my pets, & my family are all protected & inviolate? This is what I will always do. This huge trauma taught me that I "am not required to set myself on fire to keep others warm."

DaisyGirl77 · March 07, 2021, 09:07:06 PM

Quote from: Amadahy on March 07, 2021, 09:28:37 AM
Hi Daisygirl,

You are so brave and wise to not PD-up your home! I made the biggest mistake of my life letting Nmom move into our home in 2016 for six months and had not felt the same about my safe, homey-home since. However, sweet DH just did a total remodel of our kitchen, spare room, spare bath, and livingroom (the areas she frequented) because they needed it and to drive out the bad juju with his loving gift. Thank goodness it worked -- the space is so different and fresh now, but it was a lot to go through to try to feel better again.

Peace and mad respect to you. I wish I had learned to protect myself sooner.

Thank you, Amadahy! I love that you're able to love being in your home again now. I couldn't renovate any of my space due to the fact that I rent my apartment, lol. In my case I'd have to move into a new home & I'd much rather not do so. I like where I am at the moment, & this is where I need to be for now, even with all the baffling design decisions made by the architect when this place was built in the 1950s. (Definitely by a man because my kitchen is nonexistent.

)

Peace to you as well.

Starboard Song · March 08, 2021, 09:07:46 AM

QuoteI sound strong & confident, but I am a bowl full of jelly on the inside at the idea of ever seeing her & the rest of them again, lol. After all they put me through, the one thing I am absolutely crystal clear on is that my first priority will always be to myself. What will protect me and shield me from more damage? What can I do to ensure that my peace, stability, security, my home, my pets, & my family are all protected & inviolate? This is what I will always do. This huge trauma taught me that I "am not required to set myself on fire to keep others warm."

I am just terribly impressed. No matter how hard it feels, you are doing a great job!

DaisyGirl77 · March 10, 2021, 03:30:22 PM

Quote from: Starboard Song on March 08, 2021, 09:07:46 AM
QuoteI sound strong & confident, but I am a bowl full of jelly on the inside at the idea of ever seeing her & the rest of them again, lol. After all they put me through, the one thing I am absolutely crystal clear on is that my first priority will always be to myself. What will protect me and shield me from more damage? What can I do to ensure that my peace, stability, security, my home, my pets, & my family are all protected & inviolate? This is what I will always do. This huge trauma taught me that I "am not required to set myself on fire to keep others warm."

I am just terribly impressed. No matter how hard it feels, you are doing a great job!

Thank you, Starboard.