When did your relationship reach the point of no return?

[BefuddledClarity]

When did you reach to the point of no return with your relationship before separating/divorce?

How did you feel when you first separated up to now? Did things get easier or more difficult?

How did it affect your children if you have any?

When you left, did you ever go back?

I will be separating here soon and have a lot of mixed feelings. I also have a toddler in the mix.

Made a post on Chosen Relationship with background on it: [Kicking out spouse](https://www.outofthefog.net/forum/index.php?topic=87968.0)

Long story short, my partner has a drinking issue and has gotten physical in the past. I can't handle it anymore. I have mixed feelings about everything. I want to believe he can change but....he probably won't. Was told by the domestic hotline that abusers are abusers NOT because of alcohol, but because abusers want control. Alcohol is the effect whereas control is the cause ...

Just wanted to get some insight and reassurance. I left my partner previously, this will be the 2nd time...Or maybe 3rd?

[ploughthrough2021]

I think I left it late but here are my answers:

When did you reach to the point of no return with your relationship before separating/divorce?

When I felt that she was putting me and my kids safety at risk (i.e. losing me on purpose in a foreign country where se speaks the language and I don't while on vacation.  Starting argument with people in not such safe neighbourhoods while vacationing with the family.  Smashing the car into another car with the kids in there because she was angry about what the kids said, etc.

How did you feel when you first separated up to now? Did things get easier or more difficult?

I am not there yet but working on it

How did it affect your children if you have any?

I deferred it for six years until my youngest reached 15

When you left, did you ever go back?

I don't intend to come back or let her back.

I will be separating here soon and have a lot of mixed feelings. I also have a toddler in the mix.

I understand because I have had that thought when the kids were young and been dealing with it.  Except it has basically ruined 20 years of my life.  If I had known then what I know now I would have cut it off even with toddlers.

Like I said in your other post, I have seen my older sister being abused by his alcoholic husband and she s so much better now after the divorce.  Be strong and do it else your life is ruined.  Good luck !

[ploughthrough2021]

How did it affect your children if you have any?

Let me rephrase my answer this way: I waited 15 years so that the children would be less affected.  But that meant that I had 15 years of ruined life...

[Lauren17]

My relationship got to the point of no return about 5 years ago. I decided to stay "for the kids." That meant 10 more years.
I can't do this anymore. I haven't left yet, but I am actively working an exit strategy.
What my therapist has helped me realize its that my kids will have their dad as their dad whether I divorce or stay. I'm hopeful that I can better succeed on providing a healthy loving home for the kids without H stealing my energy.
It sounds like your situation is more volatile and has the risk of violence. Please do what you need to keep everyone safe.

[Bunnyme]

Sorry in advance that this will be long...
When did you reach to the point of no return with your relationship before separating/divorce?
I thought about it for a while (years).  There were incidents of emotional abuse and total lack of empathy, but I brushed it off "for the sake of the kids."  Trust was nonexistent, but I went on through the motions.  Then there were a few instances where he was completely irresponsible with the kids...like not buckling them into car seats.  I was livid, but thought I got my message across.  I made him go to the doctor after one pretty bad incident where he claimed to not remember it.  (He actually lied about going to therapy and later, post separation, told me that he knows what to say to make therapists believe he is fine.)  I was hesitating for a million reasons, like he had just lost his job, wouldnt his family think badly of me leaving him when he is down, etc..  If only I knew then what I know now about how he is NOT going to change and is not ever going to be out of some sort of crisis.  Even when he was momentarily "fine," it then felt wrong to go as it seemed unjustified.  My breaking point came when I had just gotten to work and got a call that our child was sick at daycare.  I had a terrible feeling, as we had just had a bad incident the night before where he refused to help me with the kids, but he was still unemployed and off of work, so he went to get her.  I came home to a screaming 2 year old in a soaking wet diaper.  Turns out he had been using illegal drugs for a while, and was high when he went to get her.  He passed out, leaving her to fend for herself.  So, that is what it took.  Biggest regret of my life is that I didnt go sooner.  Of course, I didn't know and have had to forgive myself for it.  Biggest lesson was that I don't need a reason to leave.  It doesnt matter whether he is being decent or not.  Everything collectively was justification enough.  Even with that horrible incident, his family still blames me for leaving him in his time of need, so it didnt matter.  It is ok to leave just because you arent getting what you need.  Period.  It is ok to just have enough, despite promises to change. 

How did you feel when you first separated up to now? Did things get easier or more difficult?
I forced him to go to rehab, so we had a true separation at first.  It was awful, as we were still working under the flawed assumption that we were working towards reconciliation.   Not to knock rehab, as I know non-PD that have benefitted, but honestly, I think he felt justified in his actions because everyone was telling him how none of this was his fault, etc.  He turned that into a weapon against me.  He has ended up back in rehab 3 more times since, lots of lies and a failed mediation later, and I'm to the point now where communication is limited to the kids and what is absolutely necessary.  Do others think badly of me because I dont participate in his therapy?  Sure.  Do I care?  Not anymore.  I spent enough energy on trying to get him to see the light and change.  It isnt going to happen.  As a human being and the kids' father, I want him to get better, but that is something he needs to do for himself on his own time.  With a PD, I'm not hopeful.  I have myself and the kids to heal. 

How did it affect your children if you have any?
I'm not going to lie and say it has been easy.  The kids are ok.  Honestly, what has been hardest on them is that he continues to break promises, not show up for visitation, etc.  My 6yo gets mad at me sometimes because he thinks I told daddy not to come.  That is hard, as I can only give him a vague "daddy is sick, but is away getting better."  When he is home and doesnt show up, I don't cover for him, but also dont want my children knowing that he is choosing to do something else.  I say "I dont know what he is doing.  He just said he cant be here."  Overall, though, my kids (I also have a toddler who doesnt really have any concept) are THRIVING.   I feel like I'm a much better mom because I'm not constantly on edge.  I learned a lot of dysfunctional things from my own parents growing up, and I'm happy to show mine that what I was in isnt what they should expect from a healthy relationship.   (I'm still working on what that actually looks like myself...)

When you left, did you ever go back? 
Not physically, but emotionally.  He is very manipulative, and the hoovering and love bombing has been strong at times.  I had the delusion that he was going to finally see the light, understand how he affects me, and be a good dad.  I was almost afraid to stay away...what if he is suddenly this wonderful, responsible person?  Am I robbing the kids of a chance at a normal family?  Wont everyone think I'm awful for going when he made such a turn around?  (Can you say FOG???)  With a lot of therapy and reading a lot of good books, I've realized it doesnt matter.  I don't need to justify myself to anyone.  He isn't going to change (and if he does, good for the kids...he can be a saint away from me).  My mental and physical health is important, too.  Most of all, I am truly only in control of my own actions and reactions.  I am only responsible for myself and my kids.  I cant dictate what he will do or wont do, or how others will see me.  Giving up control has been scary and hard (I dont do well without control over a situation), but it has been so freeing.  Despite going through a crap divorce process now, I'm happier than I've been in a long time.  I still have bouts of anxiety about how this will all turn out, but I'm trying to focus on what's happening now and recognize that I cant control the future.

As I said, I knew this would be long.  It is cathartic for me to write.  I have a phenomenal therapist who is well-versed in addictions as well as personality disorders.  The books that have helped me most are: Why Does He Do That by Lundy Bancroft.  HIGHLY recommend, as that book is what made me believe that the addiction does not cause the behavior.  At first, I was reluctant to read it, as I "wasnt REALLY abused," but it changed my whole perspective.   I have this board to thank for it.  I also read Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist by Fjelstad.  I'm reflecting on that one a lot, even for my relationship with my mother and others, and am now reading her other book, Raising Resilient Children with a Borderline or Narcissist Parent. 

All of that said, I will not tell anyone what to do with their own marriage.  I can only offer my experience so far.  As Lauen17 said, be safe. 

[GettingOOTF]

I had slowly been doing work on myself for a couple of years. One day I realized that all the reasons I was holding on to the marriage weren’t worth it to me. I was miserable in the marriage and I knew I’d be miserable when I left, but leaving would be a more peaceful and calm miserable.

I was miserable when I left. I went back a few times before it stuck. I had to come to the realization that only I could change my situation. I had to stop trying to change him and start working on my own issues. I had a ton of learned helplessness which came from my upbringing and I was deeply codependent.  Both of those things kept me trapped in the marriage even though I told myself I stayed for a million other reasons.

I don’t think anyone ever wakes up 100% knowing that they will leave and that  everything will be fine. I think the saying that we leave when it becomes less painful than staying is accurate.

When I went back things got worse as he knew I could leave so ramped up the abuse to manipulate and intimidate me into staying. Each time I left was multiples harder than the last. I consider myself lucky to have left with my life.

I don’t have kids. I grew up in a PD home. I am estranged from my PD father and my siblings. My mother passed away but I don’t think I will ever ever ever forgive her for staying with my father. And trust me I have worked really hard on having empathy for her. My siblings and I went through hell growing up in that home. We are all deeply damaged. Every single one of us recreated our parents marriage. I’m the only one who left. I see the same pattern being repeated by nieces.

Leaving is hard. Staying is hard. We have to pick our hard. All I can say is that I never in a million years dreamed I’d have the amazing life that I have today.

[GettingOOTF]

I had a lot of what Bunnyme talks about - what if he suddenly becomes this decent, productive, loving person. I invested years and a lot of money in supporting him. I was so worried he’d finally get it together and I’d lose out on all of the benefits, the great lifestyle etc.

Well I’ve been divorced for years now. He is still in the same dead end, under paying job and he still hasn’t done any of the things I spent years and a literal fortune supporting him to do. He simply found another woman to take care of him.

They do not change. And even if she becomes this ideal person for someone else she has shown you time and time again that she will not be that person for you. Who they are in the future or who they become for others does not change who they are for us.

[Kat54]

My moment came when I seriously thought about suicide. My mind had already left our marriage a couple years before because I also started to try and push back at him with his emotional abuse and crazy behavior. There were several instances when I thought this is enough I'm done. One when he got into a physical confrontation with our son over a hat my son was wearing. My ex didn't like that one and wanted him to wear a different one. The other was on Thanksgiving, he doesn't do well on holidays, and going home my daughter drove and they got into an argument and my ex started physically grabbing at my daughter to get something from her and almost made us crash.  It's one thing to be bad and crazy to me but doing things to our kids brought it to a new low that had become worse. They were teens in college at the time but I guess he felt like he could take on my son in a wrestling match.  He could see I checked out and I think that made him more anxious and act out even more.
I left and never went back with not a single regret. I don't see it as wasted years but moving forward I have to think the best is yet to come.
My kids are young adults so they sensed it was coming and understood why I left. and with my new home I'm trying to get them to see a home can be peaceful and quiet and have good conversations.

[JustKeepTrying]

I was married to my OCPDxh for more than 30 years.  I have a NPDsister and brother.  A few years back I was diagnosed with PTSD - I was having seizures daily and bouts of aphasia.  My neuropsychiatrist referred me to counseling.  I saw a therapist who specializes in EMDR and that was the time I truly began to step Out of the FOG.  For years before, I would flirt with the edges of the fog, but never really cleared it.  Each EMDR session was clearing my brain so that I could see what my life was really like.  I wanted desperately for the lies I told myself to be true - he is just a deeply sensitive person and that is why he is does those things - I begged him to see a counselor and he refused saying it wasn't helping.  That last refusal for therapy was the final tipping point for me.  Even up to the divorce, I said I would consider getting back together but never merge finances again.  Now, I would not go back.  at all.

I wish I would've left when my kids were toddlers.  They now have problems that stem from living with a PD father.  They are all in therapy and in various stages of coming Out of the FOG.  One doesn't talk to me, one wavers and one is very traumatized.  All adults with their own stuff to deal with.  If I had left long ago when I first thought of it, perhaps they would be less traumatized.  Who knows?

I had never really gone/left per se - that he knew of - but there were times where I was ready to leave and decided for one reason or another to stay.  There were times I think he felt I was separating and he would love bomb me.  And it worked.  I created every scenario in my mind to keep from facing reality.  I regret it daily

That being said, regrets are just that - regrets.  My reality is that I have been out for almost two years.  I left with only the clothes I could fit in the car.  I had only a little money and was ready to move into subsidized housing.  Anything to get out of the situation.  I am so happy now.  There are problems - he kicked my son out of the house at the beginning of the pandemic and off health insurance.  There are tight money days and flush money days.  But my life overall is so happy.  I am happier.  Scariest thing I ever did - but the best decision I have made in decades.

[Empie2204]

- When did you reach to the point of no return with your relationship before separating/divorce?
  Arter the zillionth verbal humiliation, the one which dealt with my motherhood.
  And there was drinking issue, too. Of course, he didn´t see that as a problem.

- How did you feel when you first separated up to now? Did things get easier or more difficult?
   When I separated I felt anxious whether everything will go OK. In the first six months I dealt with his contacts
   and attempts to lure me back.
   I live in a smaller house, so my comfort lessened a bit, but I have my piece. My mother, my brother and my
   grownup kids support me. None of them is a PD.
 
- How did it affect your children if you have any?
  Just like JustKeepTrying I regret for not leaving earlier. I could have spared them a lot of turmoils and
  mental consequences. They both go to therapy but they manage to create the life of their own.
  They don´t have any grudges, but I still feel bad.

- When you left, did you ever go back?
  No, I resisted my h´s first claims to return. Later on I never wanted to go back. There are only moments
  when some things bring up my memories, when I ask myself some "Ifs".  The temptation is great and I
  feel as in crossfire. Then I need to either let the time go by or to remember the bad things.
 

[ploughthrough2021]

Empie2204, I think waiting until the kids grow up is better than leaving when they re under 12.  That s why they seem to understand and hold no grudge.  I have deferred my separation until now because of the fear that they will not understand why I leave (they are now 15, 17 and 19).  The downside to waiting is that I have sacrificed more  of my life.

[Empie2204]

ploughthrough2021,

I understand your point and I agree that breaking up the family when the kids are small is extremely difficult.
Anyway, each family with a PD member is different.
In my case, adolescence years of my kids were painful and I regret  not leaving then. My PD was unable to accept the growing independence of our kids. I wish I had spared them this captivity.

[GettingOOTF]

I grew up in a PD home. I'm incredibly and deeply damaged by it, as are my siblings who recreated PD homes of their own. I can't forgive my mother for staying. She's gone now so we will never work through it.

Everyone gets to make their own choices. There are consequences for every choice we make. Only the person making the choice can know their reasons. I will never understand why my mother chose to subject her children to the home that she did. I have to live with the consequences of that choice and I see the impact of her choice every day.

[JustKeepTrying]

This is a such a woulda shoulda coulda moment - that do I leave or not with children.  My oldest still does not see the abuse and has such blinders to her father.  My middle was financially dependent on us and with a child of her own - and is so very fundamentally angry with me and him.  My youngest is 19 - I don't yet the issues he will face but the abuse this past year has been quite traumatic.

I only regret not leaving earlier because I think that perhaps I could have given them some sense of normalcy instead of constantly trying to paint happy family to everyone inside and outside - while I died daily.  The book the Body Keeps the Score is a real thing - I may not have been hit - but the mental and financial trauma has left me physically damaged.

Such a personal decision - but I believe for me - any life away from him would have been better for my kids.

[PAY]

My point of no return came this past fall.  Coming Out of the FOG started last winter with 4 negative interactions with my husband's sister.  A woman I've been close to our whole marriage (albeit living in different states).  It was unexpected and out of the blue.  Someone suggested PD to me. 
My UNPDH and I had been in a car accident on our way to spend 2 months in CA from the midwest.  I had a lot of time convalescing from food surgery and other injuries.  And so I started to become educated on PD.
Then after we returned home from CA (where SIL lives) and covid shut down started, it was a continuation of being quiet and still for me.  I increased my meditation, pulled out a bunch of books on spirituality I had always intended to read.  I was no longer running around, running out of the house, working.  In contrast, my H started raging daily.  It was right in my face and I began to notice the patterns and similarities to PDs I was learning about.
At the end of the 2nd round of couples therapy (with him raging during the last 5 sessions) and that therapist said: go back to your marriage as it is, separate/divorce or enter into 6 months of couples counseling.  And he quit.  That was my point of no return.  I was not going to live with business as usual. I knew too much by then.

I've been out a month.  We are in mediation to divorce.  No kids.  I am happy.  I have my moments when I still wonder, "could he change?"  And then I come back to this site and I'm reminded...no, he's not.  Keep moving forward.

[ploughthrough2021]

Empie2204,

I basically kept talking to my kids as they grew from 12 onwards until they basically didn't care if I stayed or split from the marriage.  That point occured when my youngest (daughter) turned 14.  My second son, at 14 was almost telling me what I was waiting for to end the marriage.  My oldest son took the brunt of the abuse and I feel bad about that.

[Empie2204]

Empie2204,

I basically kept talking to my kids as they grew from 12 onwards until they basically didn't care if I stayed or split from the marriage.  That point occured when my youngest (daughter) turned 14.  My second son, at 14 was almost telling me what I was waiting for to end the marriage.  My oldest son took the brunt of the abuse and I feel bad about that.

I also talked to my kids, tried to explain them personality disorders as they grew more mature. We discovered a lot parallelly. Now I know it was good, but not enough. Sometimes I get mad at myself... Still, parents like us should not sit and cry over it. We have to deal with that the best we can.

I hope all our answers can help BefuddledClarity.