The line between PD and fleas

[square]

If someone in your life has PD traits, how would you distinguish (and of course this is NOT a clinical question) between bad fleas and going over the line to PD?

[notrightinthehead]

The difference is consistently or occasionally.  We all do it occasionally because it is a common human trait. A person living with a Personality Disorder does it consistently and inflexibly, sometimes to the extend that it impacts normal functioning.

[Call Me Cordelia]

I guess the line that really matters is what you are willing to tolerate or not.

[bloomie]

square - what has become key for me - is to observe if another person has the ability to have insights into their own thinking and behaviors, the ability to take responsibility for when their behaviors/words cause disconnection and harm to others and themselves, and are able to show at least some level of empathy and reciprocity in relationship with others.

If someone is unable to do these most basic tasks indicative of having mastered a certain level of maturity as an adult human - self awareness, self regulate, responsibility for themselves, empathy for others, reciprocity/or give and take, I don't see how a true 'relationship' is possible.

I am not talking about setting the bar so high that another never falters, because I do so every single day, but a reasonable level of these key indicators is what I am looking to see as I adjust my level of engagement and investment of resources in the relationship.

[Cat of the Canals]

what has become key for me - is to observe if another person has the ability to have insights into their own thinking and behaviors, the ability to take responsibility for when their behaviors/words cause disconnection and harm to others and themselves, and are able to show at least some level of empathy and reciprocity in relationship with others.

This pretty much sums it up for me, too. I was watching a Les Carter video earlier on a related topic, and he said if there is ONE key ingredient in determining whether or not you're dealing with narcissism, it's an absolute refusal to take any responsibility for personal/relationship difficulties. And I think Bloomie's added points of having no insight and not being able to show empathy in those same situations really complete the picture.

I think my parents are good examples. Neither one of them likes being told what to do or have things out of their control, but my dad (who I believe has severe fleas but not a true PD) is capable of returning to a place of empathy. I believe he is able to say to himself, "I think I'm right on this, but Cat is an adult and her own person. She has a right to make this decision for herself. I know it's important for ME to have independence on things like this, so I want that for her, too."

My BPD Queen mother, on the other hand, is not capable of thinking this way. She thinks, "I am right. Cat is wrong. We have to stop her." Then she says terrible things to me in an effort to undermine my confidence. When that doesn't work, she'll give me the silent treatment. When that still doesn't change my mind, she'll suddenly realize how far she's pushed things and do a round of hoovering and lovebombing. She never apologizes or acknowledges her abusive behavior. And if someone bothers calling out her behavior, she DARVOs.

I also want to say that Cordelia makes a great point with the line truly being what you're willing to tolerate. Whether it's fleas or a full-blown PD, people are still ultimately responsible for their behavior. You are not under some sort of obligation to accept abusive behavior just because someone "only" has fleas.

[square]

Thanks for your answers, everyone.

You've touched on each way to think about it, I think.

My MIL displays PD traits in some situations, and can be fully toxic in those situations. In other situations, she is warm and empathetic. We can predict which will be which.

My H is the reason I'm in this forum. He is an example for the next way to look at it. He can be a full PD. But then have insight, empathy, and regret. One could ask about the responsibility part, and that's what I'm trying to figure out. Lately, he has been making a real effort. It's great but it brings up all kinds of questions.

Our daughter has also noticed. I don't know how long it will last or even why it has happened. He's had some PD stuff but they are much milder, shorter in duration, and quicker to either move on or even express regret and commit to try different strategies (it may be impossible to stop feeling angry sometimes but he can put his energy into removing himself and cooling off alone instead of yelling at us for example).

And last of all, it's what we're willing to put up with.

Prior to the last couple of months, I was hanging by a thread.

I can live with this.

But I've been through too much to relax. I don't know when - if ever - I should start to hope a little, maybe open up and trust a little.

I haven't yet.

I don't for a second think this is a put-on. He's not like that. Just really prone to blowups, really sensitive. So it's not that he's planning to get me back into his claws or anything. I just don't know what brought him to this point now, and thus I have no idea how long it can last.

I'm using the toolbox just the same. But you know that medium chill isn't a full marriage - for either of us. I'm just wondering if I should let a few tiny cracks in the medium chill.

[Cat of the Canals]

square, is he willing to talk about it with you at all? Particularly in the moments where he expresses regret or mentions trying different strategies, I'm wondering if you are able to say, "I've noticed how hard you're trying, and maybe we could look into some new strategies for dealing with this together." Whether that means therapy, watching Youtube videos, getting some books from the library... after that, the question is whether or not he truly commits to trying or only ever talks about it.

(To be clear, I am only suggesting this because your response sounded like you have an interest/desire in working things out. If you don't feel it would be productive or good *for you* then I wouldn't do it. He is, at the end of the day, an adult entirely responsible for making his own good choices.)

[square]

I burned the therapy bridge a few years ago, when things turned bad. It was juuuuust before I figured out PD and I didn't understand. The sessions were terrible.

He would be willing to read but in actuality, he is struggling to maintain basic functionality. He used to read all the time, but not anymore.

He is already doing stuff on his own, based on his own thoughts and also prayer. I have sometimes made certain suggestions while he was receptive, like that he tell us when he was angry and then go calm down on his own. Our part would be to leave him alone. He has successfully done that.

I believe he is sincere. I just don't know if he can keep it up. He's not falling apart yet, still going good. Before, two weeks of calm was the best we could get before the weather got dark again.

But that was only a few years. We had a good 10-15 years before. There were fleas, in retrospect. But then it turned into a nightmare. It changed for the worse; is it possible that it could change for the better?

[LemonLime]

And I would add, when checking to see if someone is capable of "taking responsibility" for their part in a disagreement, be careful.

My uPDsib's way of "taking responsibility" after a rage at me or my parents is to:
1.  admit that she is a "passionate" person
2.  admit that she "fights very hard for the underdog" (underdog usually being herself) and that sometimes she gets worked up
3.  admit that she has "special senses" and knows what others are thinking before even they know what they are thinking.  That she does not need the "normal" human's amount of time to make a judgment about someone's intentions, and that if those intentions are bad, she is not afraid to shut that person down without further ado.

That's what she considers taking responsibility.  So in a word, she is very very special and we are not, and she's "sorry" if we can't handle that.

Wow.

[square]

Yeah, I'm familiar with that bs from others, but my H admits real responsibility - when not feeling threatened. When threatened, he blames like a pd, but when calm he admits he was wrong, overreacted, has anger issues. And not paired with any "but"s or weird manipulative moves. Just regret.

I feel like I'm looking at a man with fleas... now. But for five years it was BAD.

[Cat of the Canals]

When threatened, he blames like a pd, but when calm he admits he was wrong, overreacted, has anger issues. And not paired with any "but"s or weird manipulative moves. Just regret.

I feel like I'm looking at a man with fleas... now. But for five years it was BAD.

Were there other mitigating circumstances that might have kept him more entrenched in "Flea Mode" before?

My brother-in-law was wonderful and fun to be around when things were going well in his life. And his version of "going well" meant that there could not be ANYTHING on the horizon for him to worry about. But even a small amount of stress relating to bills or his girlfriend or his job, and he would very often take a headlong dive into BPD waif behavior (which I believe were severe fleas and not a true PD).

[square]

He became unwell in many ways. But I don't know what happened. He is extremely fatigued. Sleep issues out of control. Executive function down the toilet. Our lives came to a crashing halt. Anxiety is so high. No longer interested in things he used to enjoy.

So, yeah, something happened and I don't know what it is. He was put on major medications, but they only helped a bit. The recent improvement is not based on meds, no changes in those for a while.

I do agree the PD stuff went out of control based on the stress of whatever this is. But I don't know what it is or why he lately has had a bit of a reprieve. He still is majorly struggling.

He uses alcohol to cope, no idea if it's the chicken or the egg. He wants to quit but hasn't bitten the bullet.

[1footouttadefog]

For me one thing I consider is whether the abusive action /words /method /coping mechanism that is a flea is being used in reaction to pressures or to control and manipulate.

There are a lot of overlaps in how these are defined so I will give a example.

A teen might get grumpy about taking trash out and doing dishes because they are gaming and dont want to stop, or a woman coming home from a hard day might be grumpy about having to get garbage dishes done before she can sit and rest before having a bath.  These are normal responses to stresses and pressure if they occur occasionally.

A pd might intentionally throw a fit about chores because he or she is trying to ruin the mood when others have positive things happening, , deflect from another topic, derail the attention someone else is getting, or cause a diversion so they can do something else without being seen.

[square]

Even at the worst it was always reactive, 100%.

I'm starting to feel hope and am kicking myself. Well, I think I can put the wall up again real quick if that comes to pass.

Yesterday he had a real stressor happen to him - not from me. He started getting upset, not more than anyone else would be, but I was bracing for him to kind of lose it, hopefully not on me. But suddenly, he started joking. He turned the stress imto something he thought was amusing and pretty soon we were both laughing.

I have not seen this in years.

So we then went on to have a fun night. Like, a really good night. Like old times.

Arrrrghhhhhhhhhh I don't know how much to risk here.