Can mild PD behavior lower the importance of NC?

[MarlenaEve]

I see no one talking about milder cases of PD (milder narcissism for example) and how this relates to a greater inability of going NC.

What do I mean by milder cases?

PDs who throw jabs at you or gossip incessantly. PD parents who don't really fight with you unless you wanna fight. PDs who don't openly abuse you but do it more subtly. For example, they may say something about you being single and not having children and needing to hurry and get married because they want grandkids. Or putting you down subtly or behind your back.
I also see a milder version of PD as clingy, dependant (or codependent) people who are horrified to be left by their kids and constantly monitor their lives to make sure they won't do such things.

The point is, my FOO has the capacity to exhibit mild PD behaviors for very long periods of time and has never been in your face abusive. So, as time goes by, they make you think that going NC with them is not very relevant and VLC can be a better option.

So, what would you do in this case? If you feel like your PD parents' behaviors don't really justify NC -BUT you truly want to be physically and emotionally separated from them, to start from zero and build better relationships with people who have the ability to love?

Did you ever feel like your parents' mild PD behavior makes u feel as if NC is not really needed (although you wanted to go NC)? And do you think this mindset is a result of the trauma bond or a deep need to maintain a certain relationship (even if it's superficial) with the people who brought you into this world?

I read people's comments here and they talk about their PD parents screaming at them and making their lives impossible but mine are very very subtle and it really twists your ability to discern between normal, loving, sometimes difficult parents and personality-disordered individuals (I know they are disordered ). I think they may actually fit into the category of neglecting narcissists with periods of sudden interests or involvement in others (this interest comes from a need to satisfy something in them so it's about them)

I'd like to hear your thoughts. Also, if you've gone NC even though your PDs were ignoring, neglecting, or milder on the PD scale, please share .

[Cat of the Canals]

I have two PDs in my life. My mother and my MIL. Neither myself nor my husband are NC.

I doubt I'd ever go permanently or long-term NC with my mother. She's a BPD/NPD Queen with decent social skills, and her preferred method of punishment is Silent Treatment followed by hoovering/love-bombing. Her abuse style is more passive aggressive, which makes it easier to ignore. She doesn't tend to do direct confrontations, unless she's caught off-guard. Example: she thinks I don't call her often enough. I will hear this from my aunt, my dad, my brother, her friends... but I don't hear it from her. Instead, I get "hinting" text messages. "Where are you?" "Miss you!" "Haven't heard from you in a while! We should talk!" She'll do this for two weeks without ever picking up the phone to call ME.

Her behavior is annoying and prevents true closeness, but I'm at a pretty comfortable place of LC with her. I believe any potential conflict will most likely happen if/when she visits in person. I foresee her being angry that she can't stay in my house and that I won't be entertaining her 24/7. But again, she'll probably just pout and complain to my dad and say nothing to me. (She will expect HIM to do something about it without her having to get her hands dirty. Outwardly, she will keep her happy guest mask on for my husband's sake or risk not being invited back.  )

My MIL, on the other hand, uses more overt bullying tactics to get her way. Where my mom understands that I ultimately decide if and when she gets access to me and thus attempts to be on good behavior as much as she can, my MIL doesn't acknowledge that my husband has that power. She literally doesn't take "No" for an answer and believes that if she is aggressive and persistent enough, she will get her way. She's also incapable of "playing nice" for long.

They had a huge disagreement about a month and a half ago. She gave a perfunctory apology the next day and then went back to pretending nothing happened. But the fight really upset my husband, and her reaction afterward might have been worse. Right now, he's VVLC. He tries to avoid phone calls and gives a Medium Chill response by text a few times a month. But she is pushing pushing PUSHING to visit us. If he ends up NC, I think it will be because of that. He's not willing to say yes to a visit because of everything that's happened these last few months. She isn't willing to talk about anything BUT that (or acknowledge that her behavior has consequences). This renders any communication pointless. I believe he will eventually get sick of saying NO and stop talking to her altogether.

Will it be permanent? Probably not this time. I suspect she'll eat some humble pie at some point, pretend to be contrite (as much as she's able anyway), lull him into thinking she isn't just going to make the same demands this time!!! And then she'll quickly get right back to the harassment. And then he'll shut her out again. Rinse and repeat. Maybe at some point we'd go permanent NC, but I kind of doubt it.

[GettingOOTF]

Compared to a lot of people here my father falls into the "mild" category.

I think it's important to focus on how we feel in ourselves around others. There will always be someone out there who has it worse than you.

For most of my life I also thought my family wasn't that bad. Once I started to heal and eventually when I went NC I started to see just how bad they are. It was simply that I was used to how they treated me so it felt normal to me.

With the milder cases you may have success with firm boundaries. I found I didn't and that my boundaries only encouraged them to become more adept at getting in their digs. For example my father came to see that I'd end the call when he insulted me so he'd insult me the second I picked up the phone. Eventually I stopped answering the phone and then I stopped calling him altogether. Now I'm NC. He had decades of chances to change and respect my boundaries. He chose not to. What he gets out of the jabs is more important to him than my feelings and us having any relationship.

The jabs and gossiping are where my family really excel. It's the glue that holds the family together. We were all recipients of it but as the scapegoat I got it the worst. It's very easy to underestimate the damage these little jabs do. Over time they completely erode your self confidence and any self esteem you managed to build in that environment.

One of the biggest benefits of NC is that I no longer have my family's version of me hanging over my head. I feel free of who they told me and others that I was. This has allowed me to take more risks and go after more opportunities. I feel so much stronger and more confident now. Don't underestimate the impact these "mild" cases have on you.

You don't owe anyone an explanation or a justification for going NC. There's no scale for when it's "bad enough". It all comes down to how you feel in yourself and around others.

[Andeza]

I stopped thinking about it in terms of her behavior, and instead chose to think about it in terms of my health. I'm just not designed to handle any amount of attempted abuse, cover, overt, really bad, or mild. None. Any amount of contact was damaging. I became unwilling to tolerate that damage just for... I guess appearances. I wasn't getting anything out of the relationship. She wasn't capable of being the parent of an adult child. It just wasn't beneficial in any way.

[Cat of the Canals]

You don't owe anyone an explanation or a justification for going NC. There's no scale for when it's "bad enough". It all comes down to how you feel in yourself and around others.

I stopped thinking about it in terms of her behavior, and instead chose to think about it in terms of my health.

Totally agree with both of these. If we ever go NC, it will be about OUR needs. That may or may not be dependent on how they are behaving in the present moment.

I also wanted to add that while I don't foresee a need to go NC with my mother (at least not in the near future), that doesn't mean I don't think about it as a possibility. I consider NC a parachute I always have at the ready should I need it.

[Cat of the Canals]

You don't owe anyone an explanation or a justification for going NC. There's no scale for when it's "bad enough". It all comes down to how you feel in yourself and around others.

I stopped thinking about it in terms of her behavior, and instead chose to think about it in terms of my health.

Totally agree with both of these. If we ever go NC, it will be about OUR needs. That may or may not be dependent on how they are behaving in the present moment.

I also wanted to add that while I don't foresee a need to go NC with my mother (at least not in the near future), that doesn't mean I don't think about it as a possibility. I consider NC a parachute I always have at the ready should I decide need it.

[MarlenaEve]

The jabs and gossiping are where my family really excel. It's the glue that holds the family together. We were all recipients of it but as the scapegoat I got it the worst. It's very easy to underestimate the damage these little jabs do. Over time they completely erode your self confidence and any self esteem you managed to build in that environment.

YES!! This is what I do most of the time now: underestimate the jabs and gossiping. You are right and you're truly opening my eyes to how much I minimize the abuse they subject me to. You also said that because we were exposed to this mild type of abuse, we think it is normal and don't think we have it that bad. Yes again! This is I think called normalization in the narcissistic abuse communities. I normalize bad and abusive behavior just because it has been practiced in our home 24/7 and by all our family members (included the extended family).

I reaaaly needed to hear this.
BTW, congrats on being NC! I'm happy for you. 

[MarlenaEve]

I stopped thinking about it in terms of her behavior, and instead chose to think about it in terms of my health. I'm just not designed to handle any amount of attempted abuse, cover, overt, really bad, or mild. None. Any amount of contact was damaging. I became unwilling to tolerate that damage just for... I guess appearances. I wasn't getting anything out of the relationship. She wasn't capable of being the parent of an adult child. It just wasn't beneficial in any way.

Your entire message resonates with me. Big hugs.

[MarlenaEve]

I have two PDs in my life. My mother and my MIL. Neither myself nor my husband are NC.

I doubt I'd ever go permanently or long-term NC with my mother. She's a BPD/NPD Queen with decent social skills, and her preferred method of punishment is Silent Treatment followed by hoovering/love-bombing. Her abuse style is more passive aggressive, which makes it easier to ignore. She doesn't tend to do direct confrontations, unless she's caught off-guard. Example: she thinks I don't call her often enough. I will hear this from my aunt, my dad, my brother, her friends... but I don't hear it from her. Instead, I get "hinting" text messages. "Where are you?" "Miss you!" "Haven't heard from you in a while! We should talk!" She'll do this for two weeks without ever picking up the phone to call ME.

Her behavior is annoying and prevents true closeness, but I'm at a pretty comfortable place of LC with her. I believe any potential conflict will most likely happen if/when she visits in person. I foresee her being angry that she can't stay in my house and that I won't be entertaining her 24/7. But again, she'll probably just pout and complain to my dad and say nothing to me. (She will expect HIM to do something about it without her having to get her hands dirty. Outwardly, she will keep her happy guest mask on for my husband's sake or risk not being invited back.  )

My MIL, on the other hand, uses more overt bullying tactics to get her way. Where my mom understands that I ultimately decide if and when she gets access to me and thus attempts to be on good behavior as much as she can, my MIL doesn't acknowledge that my husband has that power. She literally doesn't take "No" for an answer and believes that if she is aggressive and persistent enough, she will get her way. She's also incapable of "playing nice" for long.

They had a huge disagreement about a month and a half ago. She gave a perfunctory apology the next day and then went back to pretending nothing happened. But the fight really upset my husband, and her reaction afterward might have been worse. Right now, he's VVLC. He tries to avoid phone calls and gives a Medium Chill response by text a few times a month. But she is pushing pushing PUSHING to visit us. If he ends up NC, I think it will be because of that. He's not willing to say yes to a visit because of everything that's happened these last few months. She isn't willing to talk about anything BUT that (or acknowledge that her behavior has consequences). This renders any communication pointless. I believe he will eventually get sick of saying NO and stop talking to her altogether.

Will it be permanent? Probably not this time. I suspect she'll eat some humble pie at some point, pretend to be contrite (as much as she's able anyway), lull him into thinking she isn't just going to make the same demands this time!!! And then she'll quickly get right back to the harassment. And then he'll shut her out again. Rinse and repeat. Maybe at some point we'd go permanent NC, but I kind of doubt it.

I understand. In my case, LC will anger my mother, since I have tried it in the past and failed at it. She is, like your mother, BPD but extremely insecure and afraid of abandonment.

If things don't work out with my NC plan, then I'd definitely instill a very low contact approach. However, NC is the big plan.

I think your mother sounds difficult but not overly abusive like your MIL is. You decide the amount of time you are able to spend with her and whether you get valuable things out of the relationship with her. If you do get valuable things (I see that boundaries don't unleash the mad fury in her as it does with mine) from her and your relationship then LC works.
Your husband's mother sounds pretty scary though.

xoxo

[Happypants]

MarlenaEve - I could be wrong, but to me, what you are describing is covert rather than mild.  The desire to influence how someone feels using subtle tactics is a whole new level of crazy making that, certainly in my case, creates a constant loop of rumination and self-doubt, making me constantly question where the fault lies, am i being too sensitive, etc.

[Hazy111]

I can totally relate, to these posts. The mild or covert PDs , so hard to identify the abuse. Sends you crazy with guilt and shame.

I worked out that my father was really a schizoid ( one who actually got married, a big step for schizoids) There, but not there emotionally, in our house, when i was younger, rather than the full on grandiose narc.

His behavior is manipulative and guilt inducing rather than full on abuse, so it was harder to get a grip. Hes intelligent and subtle. He likes to "imply things " as he said, to get what he wants when he wants it  but was rarely confrontational and not clingy , quite independent when living on his own.

He used ( my Bord mother when alive) then  my sister, me afterwards and others  to be manipulated for his own needs. He rang me nearly every day for nearly 15 years for his daily narc supply and i realise he wasnt the slightest bit interested in me, just when i was next going to visit, which he never insisted on, but just left it hanging there.  He rang me cos my sister wouldnt answer the phone! When i stopped it employed flying monkeys.

But at the end the mast slipped and he was outright abusive to me and ive been NC ever since.

PD is PD whether mild or covert, it just takes so long to disentangle and some never do.

[Leonor]

Hi Marlena,

I agree with HappyPants- your parents aren't necessarily afflicted with a "mild case" of the PDs; they are covert abusers. Trauma studies are discovering more and more that emotional abuse is every bit as damaging as other kinds of abuse. It's just not as visible.

The doubt you're feeling is so much more about the messages you received ("it's not that big a deal," "you're too sensitive," "He was kidding," etc.) than the reality of what you experienced. It's very common for survivors of all kinds of abuse to dismiss what happened to them, because the dismissal and denial are *part of the abuse*.

I saw post from an acquaintance the other day who received a promotion, and she spoke to her grief upon picking up the phone to call her mom, and then remembering her mom had passed. And there was like an outpouring of love and well-wishers for this loss. And I thought, the LAST thing I would do is post about a promotion because I wouldn't want to invite a flock of my mom's flying monkeys to message me about it.

That's #@$& up.

The fact that you feel more at peace distanced from your family says everything about your family, not you.

One quote really gets me through the doubt and denial fog:

"A 'little' abuse is abuse."

Gentleness to you

[GettingOOTF]

A really great point about covert vs mild. I didn't think of it like that. I'm still very FOGgy when it comes to my family and how they treat me.

When my father found out about my promotion he said "is that a real promotion or just some [industry I work in] thing?"  It's an actual "real" promotion with a recognizable and sought after title that not many people have. I have some to see that this reaction was 100% about him and his feelings of inadequacy around his lack of professional success. I was so upset when he said that though and it really made me doubt my achievement which I should have been very proud of and celebrating.

[moglow]

MarlenaEve, it was never my goal to find and I can't celebrate NC, peaceful and healing as I know I need by now. I wanted at the least a manageable sustainable relationship with my mother. I knew decades ago she'd never be that maternal unit I dreamed of and saw with my friends' mothers, but still thought we could find a workable middle ground at least. Sure, there'd be conflict and either side pulling back while the other pushed forward, but I could deal with that. I was disappointed and I'm sure she was in just as many ways but that too can be part of any relationship. The all out war every time we had contact?

I think at some point in these relationships, we probably want to back off weighing and measuring levels of bad and look instead at the benefits [or deficits] of them as a whole. I know I nitpicked and excused WAY too much for far too long, played along to get along as long as I could. There was always just enough "good" [i.e. not all out bad] to keep me looking at the bright side of the coin, but that dark side was debilitating. It took longer and longer to recover and seemed far to easy to mother to fall off into the next time. Like that frog in a pot of water - if the water was boiling at the beginning, the frog wouldn't be there. By turning the heat up then allow to cool, up a bit more and down, it drags out but can still reach a point where it's just not doable.

Remind yourself that everyone in every relationship needs and uses boundaries - we just don't always define them as such. There's easier give and take and we accept it as such. If it's manageable and there's some balance on both sides, I could probably roll with it and keep going. Someone consistently taking yet giving very little [while demanding still more] can still wear you down and destroy your trust over time.

[Dandelion]

Hi MarlenaEve,

You say "neglectful" narcissists, which sounds a little bit similar to my "ignoring" narcissist mother.   In my experience, anyway,' ignoring' or 'neglectful' narcissists are harder to "see" because they are less in the picture anyway. 

Perhaps it would be possible to find a way to cope or deal with the "digs" and subtle "put downs"?  My question is though what would happen if you "stood up" to the digs or objected to the remarks?  Would your parent get abusive then? In my case, my mother would, sometimes to extreme, even if it was imaginary or over the minutest of challenge if it 'caught' her attention. 

You do have lots of options open to you.  As Danu Morrigan says in her book "You're Not Crazy - its your mother" - 'No Contact' is descriptive not prescriptive and no-one can tell you what to do.   I think if my mother had not had her openly abusive episodes, we would probably have stayed Low Contact.  Luckily we live 3 hours apart so that is also v helpful, though I did find the weekly duty phonecalls stressful somehow.

One thing I have noticed since NC this last time round (6 months), is that it has freed up time and energy for me and I feel more relaxed generally.  So i think there are undercurrents that do affect you even if you don't realise it. 

Andeza's post "I stopped thinking about it in terms of her behavior, and instead chose to think about it in terms of my health. I'm just not designed to handle any amount of attempted abuse, cover, overt, really bad, or mild. None. Any amount of contact was damaging. I became unwilling to tolerate that damage just for... I guess appearances. I wasn't getting anything out of the relationship. She wasn't capable of being the parent of an adult child. It just wasn't beneficial in any way"

^really sums things up for me.  I'm nearly 60, in poor health myself, and I'm just in a "zero tolerance" space these days, even with friends being selfish, rude or unstable.  I just can't be doing with any repeated unkind or mental or angry behaviour from anyone.   

As moglow said "There was always just enough "good"  .... to keep me looking at the bright side of the coin, but that dark side was debilitating", also a good summary for me.  In my case, if my mother did not have such terrible intermittent abusive episodes, it might have been possible that we could have maintained some kind of relationship, but I realise after all these years its pretty much part of her DNA.  The only way I could have dealt with it was to go VLC or NC.

[MarlenaEve]

Thanks to everyone here who responded. I'll need to print these responses 'cause the FOG is sometimes hard to handle-gentle reminders like these help with getting Out of the FOG.

@Happypants-I agree!

@Hazy111-Mom is like your PD dad: manipulative and incredibly controlling. All she does is using covert tactics to play EVERYONE in this family against one another. But she is painting a glowing picture on top of her intentions: she tries to make everyone think she's meaning well. Someone said in a forum once that their mother could be an Oscar candidate. Mine too, ha ha.

@Moglow-thanks! I need to redefine what this relationship with PD parents actually is (one-sided and very beneficial for them but terrible and destructive for me)

@GettingOOTF-horrible reaction from your father to your promotion news. I hope you can still celebrate accomplishments even though you have this memory.

@Leonor-I get it-it's the FOG that makes me downplay their abuse. That goes to show you how talented PDs are at emotional abuse/manipulation..

[Cat of the Canals]

I was talking with my husband about this idea of ever potentially going NC with our respective mothers the other night, and a thought occurred to me... There is one scenario I could imagine that would cause immediate NC with my mother, and that's if I ever found out she was smearing me to my brother or dad. She did it once several years ago, and I only found out about it much later. Coupled with the fact that I wasn't Out of the FOG yet, I never said anything. Well, that was her one "gimme." I know she whines about me to them often, but this was different. It was a clear attempt to turn them against me.

I've decided that's a point-of-no-return kind of boundary for me going forward.

[Spring Butterfly]

Yes absolutely. For me coming to the understanding that individuation has nothing to do with being in a PD family system was huge. The right to individuate is a basic human right. We're supposed to grow up, leave the nest, and go live our own life. It's the function and purpose of a family. It was never intended that the children would remain children rather, that they would become adults and live their life.

For me very often things might be very good one minute, even fun, and then turn on a dime without notice. Very often things would be quite subtle, almost in detectable to others who may even be listening. It might be a tone or tone plus words, and very often things were said under their breath Or when no one was within earshot.

Your decision depends on what you choose to tolerate. What we allow in our life regardless of blood relation is our choice. My tolerance level became less and less the last time I spent in a toxic situation. I'm not entirely no contact at this point but unless I reach out to my family they don't reach out to me which suits me just fine. I reach out via text only every so often just to say hello because I really am at peace and set them free. And I am free

[beewildered]

Longtime lurker, but finally moved to register and comment thanks to this thread's topic. Please forgive my not first going to the newbie intro thread.  I'm 50-something and 6 months of NC with my M.  During these past months, I've read many books on NPD and the one on passive-aggressive, covert abuse was the closest to my experience (I suspect she's the ignoring, cerebral variety). During my childhood, however, the pendulum did swing from rage to silent treatments.  I left home and moved across the state when I was 16 to live with my dad. The vast distance is what allowed our relationship to thrive as long as it did.  But that changed ever so gradually when she uprooted in 2014 to move much closer; significant but rare paper-cut incidences spiked accordingly.  These latter years have indeed revealed to me that she has an odd, cold, mean-streak which is skillfully managed and reserved, while the rest of the world sees an adorable, witty, and thoughtful person.

The "event" which prompted NC was incredibly brief and "calm", but I'm still reeling from it. The cosmic unfairness of it all, the sleight-of-hand way she managed to turn my walking out on her humiliating, palpable, seething contempt and disdain for me into MY abandoning HER.  Going by what I've since read and learned, I believe that last moment was in fact the narcissist's discard maneuver.

[Hazy111]

I really dont know how people manage the VLC or LC , im impressed. As the PD individual  doesnt really  recognise boundaries with those they are close to. 

When i stopped answering my fathers daily calls, i thought i had cracked it , but when visiting him in hospital he asked me when the " no phone calls " was going to stop. I think he just saw it as a phase i was going through and his illness would guilt me into it going back to "his normal".