Struggling with forgiveness. Feel like I'm stuck.

[lexophile528]

Has anyone else had this problem?

Long story short, I have anger issues coupled with a fragile ego because of the way I was raised (both my parents are narcissistic and emotionally abusive). My defense mechanisms are pretty nasty and I'm working very hard to unlearn them, but it's taken so long and I keep subjecting my spouse to my shit.

I haven't spoken to any of my family of origin since November of 2016.  Talking to them isn't going to happen. If my only answer is forgiveness, I feel like I'm in trouble. I do not want this to define me anymore, but I can't seem to lay this baggage down - even after therapy, journaling, mindfulness, and exercise.

Has anyone else been through this? I feel like there may be some perspective I'm missing.

[Boat Babe]

It's so tough this question. We survive our childhood, we come to realize the damage done, we embark on a programme of therapy, mindfulness, spiritual practice, forums etc and ..... the pain is still there. All the horrible emotions: the resentment, the anger, the sheer incomprehension of the enormity of the abuse. All the life chances sabotaged (till now), all the bad choices we made because we were so damaged, all the shitty relationships we put up with because we were desperate for love.  The health issues, the economic issues, the extended family issues. It just goes on and on.

I don't think any of us here have a pat answer. If there was one, we'd have applied it and moved on. Instead, we are still here, holding eachother and comforting eachother as we all make small and fragile steps towards healing.  I find great comfort in this community of anonymous people from all over the English speaking world. I hope you will too.

As to forgiveness, I have a pretty hard attitude towards the concept.  If a person has harmed me, realises this, apologizes sincerely and attempts some degree of reparation, then I find forgiveness pretty easy. Forgiveness is transactional imo.  I can't forgive a person who has not asked for it. I can understand the situation (eg. I was dealing with a narcissist). I can unburden myself of any fear, obligation and guilt around the relationship. I can forgive myself for less than stellar behaviour when I was in the relationship or as a result of the relationship. I can, if I am lucky, feel a measure of compassion for the person  who is so twisted by their personality disorders that they  behave so abusively. (I will need a measure of distance, both place and time, in order to do that). I hope that eventually I will let go of all attachments to that person within my mind and body. I hope that with time, and work, and support, the wounds will heal. I will always have scars, but they won't hurt. I will have become a badass of a human being as a result of this lifelong work to restore my life. I will be able to help others in similar situations. I will turn this absolute pile of shit into something authentically beautiful. My own life. Mine.

A great tool for me is Mindful Selfcompassion. I highly recommend this practice, which can be found on the internet. It is the work of Dr Kristin Neff. That, and my dog!

[Sneezy]

Forgiveness is a tricky subject, especially when the behavior in question is ongoing.  I can understand my mother's actions, to some extent, although I will never fully comprehend how her covert NPD brain works.  I certainly feel compassion for her - the extent of her unhappiness and misery is visible for the world to see.  And I try to use medium chill and boundaries to keep our relationship workable (and I forgive myself when she gets through those boundaries and I do and say things that I don't like to do and say).

But the behavior continues.  Not all the time, but often enough.  When she lies, manipulates, throws tantrums, acts helpless, tries to put all her burdens on me, etc., I can't really forgive that behavior.  It continues to hurt and anger me.  I guess the best I can do is to try and understand and try to manage it through the techniques I've learned on this site.

I don't think forgiveness is the only answer.  And even if it is something you want to do, you don't have to do it on any set timetable.  Do what works for you and if forgiveness comes some day, great, and if not, that's ok, too.  What matters is finding your truth and your peace.

[lexophile528]

Thank you so much. This means a lot.

The sticking point I have with forgiveness is that I will not get an apology. I know that. Not  sincere one. Any time I tried to reach out, I got sarcasm or contempt. So I don't reach out anymore. I do not see a path forward to reconciling. They are gone.

So now I'm left with trying to fix myself by myself. And I don't know how. I do know that things are much simpler when you have a villain to fight, so I'm working right now on seeing them for the people they are and not as villains. And I'm struggling with that too.

I think the one thing that I have to be crystal clear with myself about is that I feel like I've worked hard all my life just to fit in and be functional and for once I just want it to be easy. I feel like I deserve it. But I'm also smart enough to know that life doesn't work like that. Adjusting my expectations somehow feels like I'm accepting what was done to me. I want to kill these feelings. I don't want them.

Appreciate the hugs. I needed this perspective today. I will think on all of this and try to work through it.

[theonetoblame]

Hi Lexophile,

If I just read your posts and not the responses, I come up with this question: what does forgiveness mean to you?

I don't know what it means to you, but perhaps it means something that isn't achievable. Perhaps they truly don't deserve to be forgiven -- what then? From what you describe this would be my vote.

Personally, I believe that forgiveness is a 2 way process that involves the offending party taking ownership for their mistakes and harm. If that person won't come to the table and own this then I don't believe they have earned my forgiveness. Perhaps the thing that continues to make you so angry is this piece i.e. that they will never admit fault or take ownership. If this is true, perhaps forgiveness isn't the thing you need to figure out.

Can we live a peaceful and harmonious life without forgiving everyone who has hurt us -- absolutely!! There's a weird subtext in our society that leans towards a false truth that fully actualized and truly enlightened people have forgiven everyone who ever did them wrong. I simply disagree. I can let someone go who has hurt me, choose to not think about them, overcome triggers in my life that remind me of their harm etc. etc., all of these things move me forward without forgiveness (which may never be possible).

[Cat of the Canals]

I just watched a video on this from one of my favorite narc-related Youtube channels, and it helped me reframe a lot of the confusing feelings I've been having about my uPD mother lately.

Can You (Should You) Forgive A Narcissist?: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyEvUrMq05g

Towards the end, he sort of reframes the idea of "forgiveness" as detaching and letting go, which is more palatable to me than the traditional "I'm Sorry/That's OK, I Forgive You" version of it. Because I don't know if I could forgive either. And like you, I know damn well I'll never get a true apology or even acknowledgement of the harm that was done.

[Call Me Cordelia]

Yes forgiveness is tricky and it's a process. It's not the same thing as reconciliation, which is a restored relationship. It seems like that's off the table for you.

It's off the table for me, too. I've been NC with my FOO since 2017. I relate too to having a very fragile ego, and at times dumping it on my husband. That's what was modeled for us, and yes it is difficult to unlearn. I also sense that you are beating yourself up for your perceived failure. Is that accurate? If so I certainly relate... But it's self-sabotage. It's really hard for me to have a long view with regard to my healing at times. I feel I've spent my whole life being affected by this and I just want to be done with it. Every day I am still affected is another day I've failed to free myself. Stinking thinking for sure, but I've caught myself in that fallacy many times.

That said, I did do EMDR a couple of years ago and I found that it was the closest thing to an accelerated pace on doing the work I was likely to find. It's intense but I found the whole process to be very gentle and I'm so glad I did it.

I once heard an intriguing definition of forgiveness that I've returned to when I'm struggling with this whole idea of forgiving my abusers, or feeling guilt for not having done so. It's something like: "I no longer give what you did power over me, and I release my right to hold you in debt to me for it." That's not quite it but it's the gist at least. We can see that undoing the trauma bond is sometimes like detangling a web. Removing those threads tying us to them and the thoughts they taught us to think took years to get there and very often takes years to heal. It's not something we can poof I've forgiven! Everything is fine now! That is cheap and inauthentic, and probably just a form of rug-sweeping. You are being honest when you say you are having a terribly hard time with it, and being honest with yourself is/was one of the hardest things for me to learn. So well done, you.

Doing the work is what gets us to a place of power and freedom where we are even able to release all the power of the wrongs done to us. I believe that that whole process is in fact forgiveness. It looks like you are getting there. Welcome to Out of the FOG and I hope to see you around the boards.

[ArmadilloKate]

And like you, I know damn well I'll never get a true apology or even acknowledgement of the harm that was done.

For me, still in contact, THIS is the crux. And even if we did get this true apology or acknowledgement, the behavior continues. It requires constant forgiveness hurt after hurt. And that just isn't really healthy. I tried. It broke my brain and body.

Forgiveness and understanding can be damaging when it causes us to continue to subject ourselves to abuse.

[Leonor]

I think the reason that forgiveness is so attractive to survivors (if it weren't, we wouldn't struggle with it so much) is that it offers a promise of closure. Like, oh, I was hurt, I worked through it, I forgive you, all better, done!

Or we have this idea that we will eventually get to a place in which the ptsd disappears and then we'll be able to forgive, and if we don't feel forgiving, we're somehow failing at healing.

Or everyone else is all blah blah blah about forgiveness, even -especially!- if we day what happened to us, so we're the only ones with an issue here and our hurt and anger are indication that there really is something wrong with us, after all.

Okay, here's the thing: those thoughts are not reality. They are not possibilities. They are not based on fact, or faith, or objectivity.

They are based in the abuse. They are abusive thoughts, and they resonate with us because they trigger memories of how we were abused. They are things abusers and the people who enable them say.

Let's say someone punched you in the head. Years later, you tell someone about this, and they respond by punching you in the head.

You wouldn't say, oh wow that punch in the head really helped me move in from that last punch in the head. Or oh I feel so much better now that I've been punched in the head again. Or hey maybe what I should do about this headache I've had for years is to keep getting punched in the head!

No! You would move quickly away from whoever is doing the punching, give yourself a nice cool cloth and an aspirin, lay down and rest and when you wake up, say, damn I'm not going near that #@$& again.

And if someone mentioned this person to you, invited you to go visit them, you'd say, no way Jose, whenever I get close they punch me in the head.

And the fm says, oh but you should let go of all that and you say, it took me three days of rest and ibuprofen to get over the last punch. Go get yourself punched in the head, I'm out thank you very much.

And if the fm says, oh but why can't you get past it and go be around them again? You wouldn't think twice about saying, um because it hurts!

And that's the reason. Because it hurts.

Honor the hurt.

[Duck]

For me, the idea of forgiveness is not appealing at all. I do not feel I need it. The torment is purely from having my mother beat me about the head with it over and over and over and not being able to make her stop.

[notrightinthehead]

I believe forgiveness is at the end of the road. As long as you are in danger of being hurt you need to hang on to the anger. When they can't hurt you anymore because what they do does not matter to you at all,  when you have completely detached yourself emotionally from them,  you don't need anything from them, you can accept your past exactly as it was,  you can see them as hurt and damaged people themselves. And that I experienced as forgiveness.

[Happypants]

True forgiveness is something that can't be forced, but I get a huge amount of comfort from understanding that the dynamic doesn't exist solely in my family and that there is a "point" to it all, even if it's to my detriment.  That has helped me to detach, and now i find comfort in acceptance.  I've settled somewhat in the knowledge that I would probably forgive quickly if the control and manipulation stopped, but I'm under no illusions that it will.  So my comfort comes from accepting that, and knowing that and knowing VLC and NC are viable options.

[GettingOOTF]

I think it's less that we struggle with forgiveness and more that we struggle with accepting our past and not letting it define us.

I will never forgive my mother for not leaving my PD father. My siblings and I grew up in hell and are all deeply damaged. We are so far from the life we could have had. We all recreated their dysfunctional marriage in our own. And I see my siblings doing the same to their children.

I don't feel the need to forgive my father. He is who he is and there is no cure for what he is.  My mother however had a choice and she chose to stay because it was easier for her. I'm angrier at her and she's who I would like to forgive. I've accepted my father for what he is. I've been and with my entire family for a couple of years. My mother passed away before then.

I'm no longer angry though and I've taken a lot of steps to integrate my upbringing. I no longer let it define me and I've put it behind me for the most part. It happened. It caused the things it caused and I dealt with it the way I did. I made the choices I did at the time because I didn't have the skills to make better ones, like leaving my PD ex husband. Now I know more so I do better and my life has changed accordingly. 

A big part of this acceptance for me was understanding attachment and how your home life as a child impacts how you are able to form relationships, your self worth and a ton of other things. I'm working on teaching myself the skills I didn't get to learn as a child and it's been life changing. Skills like emotional regulation so I'm not as reactive all the time, acknowledging my strengths and not being ashamed of my weaknesses.

There is so much focus on "forgiveness", especially in Western cultures. I don't think forgiveness is necessary and I think most people likely mean "acceptance".

I was angry and messed up for most of my life. Then I was angry and resentful of how I grew up and the choices my mother made every single day not to protect her children. Now I'm focused on myself. I'm looking not just at what happened but how it impacted me and how I can mitigate that impact. Every day I get better.

I read something along the lines of this: in biblical times you could kill your neighbor for stealing your cow. So the whole "forgiveness" thing is more about "maybe don't kill your neighbor for this transgression. Maybe let him live." It's not "tell him it's ok and let him come back for more cows.".  This makes a lot more sense to me.

I recently read How To Do The Work by Dr Nicole LePera. She talks a lot about the negative impact of her upbringing and how it influenced her life as an adult. She doesn't talk about forgiveness. She talks about doing the work to develop the skills your parents didn't allow you to learn. I found the book very helpful and I recommend it to anyone who grew up in a PD home.

[lexophile528]

I'm so glad I came here and posted my question because all of your responses have been truly eye-opening. What I like so much about this community is that you are all so real. Everybody I know in my daily life says forgiveness is the answer. I was feeling like there was something wrong with me because I don't understand how that can change anything. I can forgive my parents, but it won't make the hurt stop. It won't take away the pain from my mother calling me names when I was six (oh, but she did it in German because she thought I didn't know what she was saying) or my dad screaming at me in frustration because I didn't understand my math homework. I was a little kid. I know I have an overblown sense of justice, but I was still trying to learn how to be a person.

I've always been expected to just be ok with them the way they are. I'm not. They are nasty, entitled, and mean. I feel like, now that I'm out on my own and have a choice what I can accept, I want to exercise that choice. Getting angry at someone for treating me poorly was a luxury I couldn't afford when I was a kid. Now that I'm not a kid, I'm not about to deprive myself of that. Not when I finally have the choice.

[BefuddledClarity]

Apologies for cross-posting, but I wanted to share this thread: How to get rid of anger?

People were offering tips on how to help ease the anger.

I'm going to try journalling again...I make personal videos where I talk it out to the camera. I either delete the video right after and review it later. It feels nice to talk out the frustrations sometimes.

Apart from that, physical activities such as running or weightlifting---I used to do it until I was physically exhausted and couldn't be angry anymore. I actually felt really good after that, I love feel sore BUT strong! Another poster mentioned screaming in a secluded area(ex. Basement, in the car, etc) and belt it out to let go of the frustrations.

In regards to the forgiveness part ..I wouldn't be the best person to ask. I was angry for YEARS with my parents, even when I left the house. It took awhile before I became indifferent to them and have no feelings...If they do something that's irritable to me, I can always hangup the phone, walk away, and do what I want to. They live 1,000 kilometers away or so, so I don't worry about it.


Honestly, my anger seems to keep getting redirected to different situations/people, so it never really left me. I just need to learn how to redirect it in more productive ways. I even used to draw when I was angry or make music and it helped relieve some stress. I think that's what I'm missing because I haven't done hobbies in awhile. I'm stuck in this "chores/errands" loop everyday and don't get to do what I want to.

So anyways ...I guess I would say try to redirect that anger if you can or let it release it different ways to help relieve it for the time being.

[JenniferSmith]

One thing that has helped me when I've explored the issue of forgiveness is to read different sources about how forgiveness is defined.  This helped me realize there is not one standard definition.

There is a book that was written for people who've experienced infidelity ... but I found it could apply to anyone sorting out forgiveness - its called How Can I Forgive You?  I found it quite helpful - https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/149802.How_Can_I_Forgive_You_

Then there is this article I found years ago which describes the way forgiveness is handled in Judaism.  I am not Jewish, but found it very thought-provoking. I was intrigued to find that my own personal values around forgiveness seem to match the Jewish perspective fairly closely.  http://www.crosscurrents.org/blumenthal.htm

[theonetoblame]

One thing that has helped me when I've explored the issue of forgiveness is to read different sources about how forgiveness is defined.  This helped me realize there is not one standard definition.

There is a book that was written for people who've experienced infidelity ... but I found it could apply to anyone sorting out forgiveness - its called How Can I Forgive You?  I found it quite helpful - https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/149802.How_Can_I_Forgive_You_

Then there is this article I found years ago which describes the way forgiveness is handled in Judaism.  I am not Jewish, but found it very thought-provoking. I was intrigued to find that my own personal values around forgiveness seem to match the Jewish perspective fairly closely.  http://www.crosscurrents.org/blumenthal.htm

I really like this Jewish interpretation of forgiveness! Thanks for sharing. We live in a predominantly christian community in north America, with various forms and guises. I have always seen our social interpretation of forgiveness as being an christian version, like what I went to do as a child in confession. 4 Hail Marys, 2 Our Fathers and badabing! all is forgiven. Forgiveness is in the hands of 'god', not the person who was harmed. For me, there is no forgiveness without repentance from the perpetrator, or, as defined in this lovely article, the simple repayment of the debt that the person who trespassed against me has incurred. I really appreciate the objective and logical nature of the argument, it is completely in line with my experiences.

[JenniferSmith]

One thing that has helped me when I've explored the issue of forgiveness is to read different sources about how forgiveness is defined.  This helped me realize there is not one standard definition.

There is a book that was written for people who've experienced infidelity ... but I found it could apply to anyone sorting out forgiveness - its called How Can I Forgive You?  I found it quite helpful - https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/149802.How_Can_I_Forgive_You_

Then there is this article I found years ago which describes the way forgiveness is handled in Judaism.  I am not Jewish, but found it very thought-provoking. I was intrigued to find that my own personal values around forgiveness seem to match the Jewish perspective fairly closely.  http://www.crosscurrents.org/blumenthal.htm

I really like this Jewish interpretation of forgiveness! Thanks for sharing. We live in a predominantly christian community in north America, with various forms and guises. I have always seen our social interpretation of forgiveness as being an christian version, like what I went to do as a child in confession. 4 Hail Marys, 2 Our Fathers and badabing! all is forgiven. Forgiveness is in the hands of 'god', not the person who was harmed. For me, there is no forgiveness without repentance from the perpetrator, or, as defined in this lovely article, the simple repayment of the debt that the person who trespassed against me has incurred. I really appreciate the objective and logical nature of the argument, it is completely in line with my experiences.

I am happy to hear that it resonated for you!   I've had that bookmark saved for many years, as it really spoke to me as well. I agree that we are heavily influenced by the Christian version of forgiveness in the US.  I was quite surprised when I learned that it is very different in Judaism.  And like you, it matches the way I intuitively thought about forgiveness.

[daughter]

With exception of two FOO public event milestones my estranged parents attended, w/o invitation from me, I've had no real contact since 2013. I blocked their phones. They sent attorney to notify me that I was officially disinherited. No mail or email contact; some 2nd FOG attempts via my oldest young adult DS.  I was dutiful daughter SG, nothing done to merit years of harsh vindictive behavior and overt NPD expectations from them.

I'm fine. I've taken Serenity Prayer-like stance: accept how they are, realize they won't change; and remove myself from further harm. I did my best to please and appease them, to no avail. I tolerated a great deal of disrespect, disdain, and plain ugliness without argument, to no avail. I did therapy, which my parents deemed offensive, and angry that I "would discuss family matters".  I won't "forgive" them, but as I "accept" them as-is, I also won't let myself be further victimized.  I'm doing them the favor of no longer being able to behave badly towards me; my absence is really a pseudo benefit to them.

My debt to my npd parents is paid. Reality may now intrude, where they may "need" me even more, but the bond is broken, and I realize my feelings are entirely benign but also fully disengaged from them. I suggest same approach.

[feelingandhealing]

I am still very new to the healing journey and process. Several months into the journey, I wanted to continue learning how to release anger, deal with the inner child, process the trauma, deal with grief, and ultimately how to move toward forgiveness.

I have come to the conclusion that I may never get to forgiveness. I hope I do achieve forgiveness and if I do not, then I am ok with that (at least as of now I am ok with that) because I believe it is not the only answer. 

In Julie L. Hall's superb book The Narcissist In Your Life, she states, "forgiveness is for you, not the narcissists. [Forgiveness] is not about the person who has wronged you. Forgiveness is your acceptance of your hurt and your release of that hurt."

Our mutual and shared healing journeys involve education from books, emotional journaling, therapy, online forums, perhaps practicing self-compassion, etc. Those are all terrific ways to accept the hurt even though the wound(s) is still there.

Getting angry at someone for treating me poorly was a luxury I couldn't afford when I was a kid. Now that I'm not a kid, I'm not about to deprive myself of that. Not when I finally have the choice.

The above statement is so true. Let your anger move you to action. That is what ultimately put me on a path to finally address the hurt after keeping it bottled up for far too long. And yes, while we were children, we could not afford risking the loss of attachment to our parent(s) because we needed them, despite their abuse, to provide food, shelter and clothing.  Back then we did want we needed to do in order to survive. That part is over now. We are free to choose our next steps.

Sending you much compassion and love