Long Term Care

[Sneezy]

Mom has brought up the topic of long term care before.  She is considering purchasing long-term care insurance (I had no idea people in their eighties could actually buy this, but it turns out they can).  I am helping her look at the policy and one of my siblings is going to talk to her insurance agent.  I have no idea if she will actually purchase the insurance, or if it's just her way of getting some attention.  In any case, it's interesting, and I don't mind learning more about it (who knows, I may need this some day).

But the thing that's bothering me is that every time Mom brings up the subject, she says something like "I don't want you kids to be stuck with my bills" and "I don't want you going into debt for my care."  I have made it pretty clear that won't happen.  I don't want to hurt her feelings, but she is going to pay for her own care until she runs out of retirement money and then, if need be, I will help her apply for state benefits.  What I think she wants, though, is for me to tell her not to worry, she can move in with me if she needs care.  Or alternately, that her children will all chip in to buy her the best care available.  I can't and won't make either of those promises. 

How can I put an end to this line of thinking?  The truth is that if she gets to a point where she needs more care than she can afford, my siblings and I will figure it out at that point in time.  Who knows?  Maybe one my sibs (not me) will move in with mom or maybe we can get her on to Medicaid or maybe her monthly social security check will be enough for some in-home care.  It's all up in the air and impossible to predict.  But what I don't like is this nagging feeling of obligation and guilt where I feel like I'm supposed to rush in and say "don't worry mom, I'll always take care of you."  Because that's not how I feel.

[Cat of the Canals]

How can I put an end to this line of thinking?

Honestly, you probably can't. Remember that we can't change someone else's behavior, only our own. But I absolutely understand your frustration and desire to not hear it anymore. It's totally a loaded statement, probably designed to either get you to make a HUGE life-altering promise or maybe even to start a fight if you tell her "Well, I don't plan on paying for squat!" (Not that you'd actually say that.  )  My unPD mother loves to makes these exact little remarks.

The truth is that if she gets to a point where she needs more care than she can afford, my siblings and I will figure it out at that point in time.

This is really the only answer you can give, isn't it? And it also happens to be the most honest one. I would tell yourself AND her, "We'll figure that out if/when the time comes." If she continues to bring it up like a broken record, you answer in the same fashion. End of story.

[Sneezy]

I would tell yourself AND her, "We'll figure that out if/when the time comes." If she continues to bring it up like a broken record, you answer in the same fashion. End of story.

I think you're right, that's all I can say at this time.  I really don't know what I will do if/when my mom needs more care.  Maybe I would help financially.  If a small amount of financial help could help her stay in her own apartment, for example, it might be worth it.  I can certainly see myself managing, or helping her to manage, her care.  I know I don't want to live with her or move her into my house.  And I definitely don't see myself as a hands-on caregiver (I don't have the strength to lift her, for example).  But as I noted above, one of my siblings may feel differently if and when the need arises.

The more I think about it, what's truly troubling me is that this feels like a test.  Mom is talking about long term care to see what I will say.  Am I the dutiful daughter who will step in and care for her?  Am I answering her questions "correctly?"  I don't like to borrow trouble - there's no sense worrying about a situation that may never arise.  And I sure as heck don't like being tested on hypothetical situations that may never arise.  It feels manipulative.

[Jolie40]

How can I put an end to this line of thinking? 

what you could do is take her to see some places now & get on waiting list

if you wait until emergency, one gets stuck with whatever place has an opening & places with openings are usually not that great

also, there is a huge range in costs between places & takes some research
it's stressful to do all that when an elder must go in immediately & then there's little choice

[Dandelion]

I have noticed some "fishing" too on this question.  Surprised me really, as she is more the "ignoring narcissist".  I have decided to not get involved.

I would say no response necessary.  A promise is out of the question and a refusal will make her angry.  It is not an honest conversation about the future, just fishing and manipulation on her part.  How about a non-committal  "hmm" or "uh huh" or "who knows".  (though this may make her cross too it will force her to take more responsibility for herself).

[Sneezy]

I have noticed some "fishing" too on this question. 

That is a good way to think of this.  Mom is on a fishing expedition.  Where can she poke holes in my boundaries?  What is likely to make me angry or upset?  How much am I playing my assigned role of dutiful daughter?  And, the big question, can she get me to promise to bring her to live with me and have me take care of her (and entertain her and serve her) when she's ready for that?

what you could do is take her to see some places now & get on waiting list

I talked to a cousin yesterday who works in the elder-care industry and she gave me the same advice.  If mom is truly worried about long-term care (and not just fishing for drama) then I would have no problem taking her to visit some facilities.  If she continues to bring it up, I will make that offer.  Although I do not think she will take me up on it.  She really doesn't want to admit that she is concerned about her future health.  I think her true motivation is to see how much her children love her and will offer to help her and take her in. 

[Leonor]

Oh, total fishing expedition!

And let's be real: she's not interested in long-term anything besides Sneezy moving right in with her!

That's what all this long-term nonsense is about. If she's so interested in purchasing insurance, she'd already have a policy and an agent and a will.

Nope, instead she has what she wants ... *Sneezy* dancing around looking into *her* long-term life arrangements. After all, she's not getting any younger!

Which leads her right into the don't want to leave you in debt nonsense: "So, I'm going to spend all my money and then you will give me your money do I can spend that too. FYI."

And you start wondering, "Well, maybe I could afford this or that for her ... Or pay this or that for her ..."

Danger, Will Robinson!

The appropriate response to any of this is "Hmm." That's it! Even cross-that-bridge, which with normal people is a kind and wise response, will be an invitation to more "Well, I'm not getting any younger" or "I just want you to feel secure" or more push push push.

This is mom: 

This is you: 

[Amadahy]

As one who did take Nmom into my home for six hellish months, I implore you -- don't.  Worst mistake of my life and reactivated c-ptsd which I still struggle with, for nearly five years now. 

Keep up those life-saving totally appropriate boundaries.   

[Sneezy]

Hmmmm, last week Mom claimed that one of my sibs definitely wanted her to get the long-term insurance.  Saw mom today and now she says that she's talked to ALL of her children and they ALL say it's unnecessary and she should not get it.  Oh, and "besides, you kids don't want me to be around for too long, do you?"  So yeah, definitely a "do you love me and want me to live forever even if I have to move in with you" fishing expedition - ugh, I should have known 

[Fiasco]

And as an added bonus now she can pretend her kids OWE her care because they told her not to plan ahead. Heck no. How aggravating!

[Leonor]

How fun would it be to come back to a ridiculous statement like, "You kids don't want me around forever, right?" with a simple, "Right."

I would love to see the look on her face just for that one moment.

[Andeza]

There was a TV show (Everybody Loves Raymond: it's a flippin' PD primer I swear) where the dysfunctional mother said "One of these days, you're going to turn around and I won't be here!" Her son spun in a circle and looked her in the eye. "Not today!"

I'm sorry she's gaslighting you, Sneezy. Long term care insurance is actually a wonderful product for people that haven't attended to their retirement fund and are aging and concerned about burdening their children. The real truth is that most of us live long enough to require care these days, and it's so expensive we won't leave much to our children. So why not look after our future?

[Seven]

Andrea,
You're right. I'm looking into it for myself and I'm only in my 40s
This is because uNPDm says "I want to leave something for my kids" but never made any plan whatsoever to do so. Nada.  Nothing.

One of the few good things my ILs have done is gotten LTC insurance.

[samtosha]

Wow, this sounds familiar! Hang in there and don't fall for it.  OK, I'm gonna talk about some ugly stuff now. Trigger warning: suicide/suicidal ideation. Please don't read further if this topic upsets you.

My uPD M's thing has been for a long time, "I don't want to be a burden" (while doing all she can to be burdensome) and "I'll kill myself before going into a nursing home." Those two statements are total BS. She would love to burden me and I'm pretty sure she has no intention to kill herself. I think it's just an avoidance tactic so she doesn't have to actually plan her life at all. She has a little money, no long-term care insurance and no will. I agree that letting her money run out and turning to Medicaid is the way to go - I've already said I'm not supporting her or letting her live with me. She has no plans to deal with anything, just denial and waify woe-is-me fantasy-land!

Literally, my uPD parents had suicide as their long-term care plan for as long as I can remember, even going so far as joining the Hemlock Society (I'm not sure what that society does, but for a long time I thought they would send pills or something when the time came, LOL nope). When it came to my uNF, of course, he went downhill physically and mentally, didn't commit suicide, and he ended up dying in a nursing home last year. More recently, my GC bro flew in as a result of uPDM's "threats" to kill herself, but once he was here he said it seemed more like she thought she would be doing us a favor... and maybe what he needed to say in response was "OK!". Instead he let the comments go by.

I mean, if she gets to the point of needing a nursing home, the chances are she will not have the mental or physical wherewithal to kill herself, if she ever actually intended to. I see it as an avoidance tactic and some kind of weird manipulation but I've never directly responded to these statements either, choosing to ignore them. But I am thinking maybe some kind of response is warranted, because honestly it's pretty obnoxious and upsetting.

Anyway, I totally relate to the BS of these PDs "not wanting to be a burden" when their behavior is entirely and predictably burdensome!

[Leonor]

Samtosha,

The Hemlock Society sending pills when the time came, omg too funny

[Seven]

Samtosha,

That's my mother as well. Your entire paragraph sums her up.  "Oh I just want to die!" Sad fact is that she's done this her entire life when things didn't go her way. She assumed she'd live with her children without even asking us...it was just suppose to be a "given". Doesn't want to be a burden, while being a burden. No discussion of after-life arrangements because she can't face the fact she'll die. She admits every decision she made for my dads arrangements were wrong "the next time I won't have him cremated" NEXT TIME?    He could've been given a military service but she declined that for him as well.  Didn't think anyone would show up to his service...the entire church was SRO.

She does have a will, though there will be nothing left to distribute.  "But i can't go into a home because I want to leave something for my kids" with no plan to actually make that happen. She's now in memory care, her assets not sheltered, and will most likely need to be in a nursing home (IF she makes it through the month...it's April, relatives on her side tend to die in April..two of her sisters, her mother, her aunt, and I believe her grandfather) because she is very much causing a commotion with her paranoia.

I think LTC insurance is a wonderful idea

[SunnyMeadow]

Hmmmm, last week Mom claimed that one of my sibs definitely wanted her to get the long-term insurance.  Saw mom today and now she says that she's talked to ALL of her children and they ALL say it's unnecessary and she should not get it.  Oh, and "besides, you kids don't want me to be around for too long, do you?"  So yeah, definitely a "do you love me and want me to live forever even if I have to move in with you" fishing expedition - ugh, I should have known 

This makes me angry. They are such game players! She doesn't want to do anything. Like Leonor wrote above, if she did she would have everything in place.

I made the grown up decision to get my financial house and planning in order... and I did it. I didn't ask for my children's thoughts on the matter, they have their own lives to handle. I'm almost certain all children want their parents to buck up and get this stuff in order! Sorry you have to listen to this nonsense Sneezy. 

[Sneezy]

This makes me angry. They are such game players! She doesn't want to do anything. Like Leonor wrote above, if she did she would have everything in place.

Yep, this is just part of her game.  The truth is my mom did an ok job of saving for retirement.  She is not rich by any means.  But if she needed to hire an aide to come in for a few hours a week and help her, she could afford that.  Or if she ends up in assisted living, she could probably afford that.  Now if she ends up in memory care and lives to be 105, then she's going to run out of money.  But there's no indication that she's having any cognitive problems and those kinds of problems don't run in her family, so I'm not going to worry about it for now.

I think she's just bored and fishing for attention.  There's no drama associated with "having enough."  If she was rich and her kids were scrambling to get on her good side and stay in the will, that would be some good drama for her.  Or, if she was poor, and needed her kids to care for her because she couldn't afford help, well that would be some good drama, too.  But plain old "pretty set for retirement unless something really unusual or unfortunate happens" is just not enough excitement for her.  And so she stirs the pot!

[Kiki81]

In answer to your question, you cannot change their thinking.

You do *you.* Whatever you are planning to for Her (nothing up to everything), do *that.* She can blather and babble and prattle allll she likes. You're an adult under full control of your actions, home, finances, etc.

[1footouttadefog]

Over the years I have encountered three types of people who collectively have a lot of answers and info regarding what's available.

Hospice social workers.  The intake folks there have a lot of knowledge about how their services can be integrated with end of life care.

Discharge social workers at the local hospital.  They help get people placed in nursing homes and such and can be very knowledgable about at home health, and short term and long term placements and visiting nurses etc and what Medicare will pay for etc.

Nursing home intake workers. They are familiar with a lot of things surrounding how things get paid for etc.

The way I see it you need to be armed with options for various scenarios. If your mother is able to live along until an obvious end stage that has only months of life expectancy, hospice at home might potentially bridge until the end.

If she is in need of assistance for periods of time after health bouts, she might be able to go to a nursi g home for 100 days following a hospitalization at full medicare coverage.

At any given time there may be some at home nursi g and therapy visits covered by Medicare and insurance.

And of course nursing g homes are an option and as you stated the balance can be covered by state assistance.