The Venn diagram of (PD) and (abuse)

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What does the Venn diagram of (PD) and (abuse) look like?

Is there a small or large overlap?
Is one circle entirely inside the other?
Is it a single circle?

Are there types of abuse that are nit under the PD umbrella?

Do nonPD people abuse? Not talking about how anyone can hurt another due to misunderstanding or perhaps a one time opportunity, but are there systematic abusers who aren't PD?

One category of abusers are pyschopaths. This may be completely covered by ASPD.

When Lundy Bancroft and his ilk talks about abusers, could that terms be completely interchangable with "PD"?

Thoughts?

[Poison Ivy]

My ex probably has avoidant or dependent personality disorder (or both). He has not been an abuser.

[D.]

Good question.
I believe my father is undiagnosed NPD and is emotionally/verbally abusive.  Physically "aggressive" as in will throw stuff but doesn't hit - but it's still physical. 
My enabling, possibly covert NPD mother is neglectful.  She quite literally ignores needs of child or adult emotional needs.   For example when I disclosed SA by a childhood neighbor my mom told me that was too stressful for her and hung up the phone.
NPD ex-H also emotionally/verbally abusive/neglectful.

[Boat Babe]

I have pondered on this. Probably for longer than they merit.

At the end of the day, abuse is abuse and the only important thing is what are you going to do in that situation. If you are being abused, you owe it to yourself, and especially any children who are in the mix, to remove yourself from that situation. Labelling them is really secondary.

[Poison Ivy]

 

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Aw, you guys are no fun!   

[BeautifulCrazy]

In my limited experience, they are separate things with quite a bit of overlap.
I say that because I don't personally know any PDs who aren't abusive, (I only know 3) but I do know at least a couple of people who are abusive, but do not meet any threshold for PD.

I believe everyone, all of us nons even, displays traits from time to time. I think everyone has probably behaved abusively toward someone else at some point in their lives too.
I know I have, but I get better and better as I go....

I grew up in a non-PD and non abusive household, but there was occasional dysfunction that crossed those lines. Nobody did those things consistently or stayed stuck there though. (The defining factor in my opinion.)

Personally, when I find myself trying to organize or categorize the behaviors of others, I always come to the same dead ends.
Humans are individual and complex and so are relationships.
Any experiences between humans are completely subjective.
What works for one person or relationship does not necessarily work for any others. 
All I can do anything about is me.

I defer to Boat Babe on this

At the end of the day, abuse is abuse and the only important thing is what are you going to do in that situation.
...
Labelling them is really secondary.

[Aeon]

Okay, Square, I'll bite 
As far as Lundy goes he covers my unAvH perfectly. I even tried to get the H to do the list of things that Lundy suggests for abusers to recover. We went through about 5 attempts with no change or anything but a very light explanation (I did it because I was angry).
I can see how the same thinking that goes into PD could quite possibly go into just being abusive and Lundy does certainly say that it takes a long time and lots of work.
I have never known an abusive non myself but perhaps they have acquired some portion of PD behaviours.

This might be a more important conclusion if it meant that the situation were significantly different. Like if they were "just an abuser" then we give them a glass of green tea with a big hug and they stop. 

[square]

Yeah I know 

I'm not leading anywhere with this, btw. Abuse is indeed abuse. My brain just likes trying to make sense of stuff, the darn thing.

What does nonPD abuse look like? Every abusive person I personally know seems to me to be operating in the PD world, whether full blown or some pretty good fleas.

[Aeon]

If you/anyone find the answer to that question (what does non-PD abuse look like) I would very much like to know for, at least, intellectual reasons.
I've given it a lot of thought and come up with nothin' 'cos only seen PD's (mom and H) so you have my sympathies.

It's still an interesting question, though and it may do the world some good to answer that I am not aware of.
Curiosity is good for us and (if memory serves) produces dopamine. 

[Boat Babe]

Aw, you guys are no fun!   

Hahahahaha ❤️

[BeautifulCrazy]

I don't understand how a Non exhibiting fleas doesn't qualify as Non-PD Abuse.

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Yeah, that's a good question.

I guess I am thinking fleas is from the PD universe.

And wouldn't fleas always have their genesis from PD? I.e. a PD parent passes along fleas to children.

[Cat of the Canals]

One thing to remember is that there are quite a few PDs that don't get discussed very often on this board... probably because they are less likely to be a type exhibiting abusive behavior (schizoid or avoidant, for example). That's not to say those PDs can't be abusive, but the fact that there's a self-isolation component would probably make them less likely to have someone around to be abusive to in the first place. So I don't think "abusers" and "PD" can be used interchangeably.

As to whether someone can be an abuser and NOT have a PD, I'd also say no. Addicts can be abusers, but they do not necessarily have a PD (though there is certainly a high comorbidity between the two). Other mental illnesses (schizophrenia, for example) might display violent behavior that looks like abuse, but the fact that psychosis is driving the behavior calls their intent into question. If they genuinely don't mean harm, is it still abuse?

[moglow]

On this topic we're most assuredly no fun and not likely to be, and I'm probably less so than you'd like in this discussion. PD does not and never did = abuser, and vice versa. Depending on the PD and the individual I'm sure there's plenty of overlap, but to attempt to classify ALL as abusive? Too many other variables come into play for any of us, such as age, health, medications [whether as prescribed, abused or illegal], living situations, backgrounds etc.

To understand this a bit better, go all the way back to the general criteria of a personality disorder:

DSM General Criteria for a Personality Disorder
A. An enduring pattern of inner experience and behavior the deviates markedly from the expectations of the individual's culture. This pattern is manifested in two (or more) of the following areas:

   
• Cognition (i.e., ways of perceiving and interpreting self, other people and events)
• Affectivity (i.e., the range, intensity, liability, and appropriateness of emotional response)
• Interpersonal functioning
• Impulse control

B. The enduring pattern is inflexible and pervasive across a broad range of personal and social situations.
C. The enduring pattern leads to clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.
D. The pattern is stable and of long duration, and its onset can be traced back at least to adolescence or early adulthood.E. The enduring pattern is not better accounted for as a manifestation or consequence of another mental disorder.
F. The enduring pattern is not due to the direct physiological effects of a substance (e.g., a drug abuse, a medication) or a general medical condition (e.g., head trauma).

You see above where we reference an "enduring pattern" and that's borne out in pretty much every PD defined in the DSM - they're not talking about one-off or someone's intense reaction to situations beyond one's control. They mean years, even decades of predictable and consistent maladaptive behavior that's above and beyond any societal norm.

Occasional outbursts or exhibiting this or that behavior even on a consistent basis doesn't make us PD.  You could exhibit three or four behaviors of a particular PD over time and still not technically be classed as such, but understand that every individual with PD isn't necessarily restricted to just one PD either. A "pure" BPD, NPD etc probably doesn't exist, they often live in tandem with others and that expands the possibilities enormously.

PD behaviors as we recognize them really are *normal* behaviors taken to an extreme. Any/all of us could or would explode, act out, do or say things that are unacceptable and flat out wrong - in extreme situations.What we often call "fleas" are indeed learned behaviors, but probably also in circumstances beyond the norm. Those behaviors in and of themselves aren't definable as a personality disorder, but it's absolutely the extremity and duration/consistency over time of behaviors listed in the diagnostic criteria.

Soapbox:
I'm suggesting we all study a bit more what personality disorders actually are and how they are defined, rather than attempt to paint everyone with whom we disagree with that broad PD brush. I honestly don't believe all PDI do things specifically to hurt others - I do believe there are a LOT of tormented lost individuals out there, each getting through as best they can with what they know. That they're so resistant to any form of help or guidance, so vehemently opposed to changing behaviors that would truly benefit their lives [and the lives of their loved ones] is truly sad to me.

For myself, I was abused and tormented on a variety of levels throughout my life with mommie dearest. While I knew her treatment of me was wrong and I didn't have to live that way, it was still incredibly hard for me to step away from what I knew. I know it has to be a dark ugly place in her head for her to treat others as she does. I'm not and will never excuse her choices - because they WERE conscious choices! - but I still don't wish her ill or joke about it. I can't. She's destroyed her own life knowingly and deliberately, and tried to take others down with her. Believe me, I made sure to have myself evaluated for PDs as well, because I was/am hellbent to mow that down within myself! I think we owe it to ourselves and our loved ones to regularly practice self-evaluation and reflection, and decide if *this* person is who we truly want to be.
Off soapbox now.

[Starboard Song]

That was a good soapbox, Mo. There are all kinds of sustained non-PD abuse. An alcoholic or drug addiction who routinely beats a family member is not PD but is an abuser. And any number of other mental disorders can cause someone to abuse.

I fear Venn diagrams for this purpose are just a stacking of ambiguity on top of vagueness on top of doubt.

[1footouttadefog]

I have after decades of pondering summarized /over simified it as such.

A use is evil.  Being Evil or Good is a spectrum.  All humans are on the Good/ Evil spectrum regardless of mental diagnosis.

We all have the right to choose to live without or with as little abuse as we choose regardless of the mental diagnoses of the abusers.

[Jsinjin]

For me it's one circle directly on too of the other.   All the PD behavior in my life is abuse and I can't think of anything that is a PD behavior which is an endearing or nic personality trait.

[Janeite V]

What does the Venn diagram of (PD) and (abuse) look like?

Is there a small or large overlap?
Is one circle entirely inside the other?
Is it a single circle?

Are there types of abuse that are nit under the PD umbrella?

Do nonPD people abuse? Not talking about how anyone can hurt another due to misunderstanding or perhaps a one time opportunity, but are there systematic abusers who aren't PD?

One category of abusers are pyschopaths. This may be completely covered by ASPD.

When Lundy Bancroft and his ilk talks about abusers, could that terms be completely interchangable with "PD"?

Thoughts?

In my experience, not all abusers have PDs and not all pwPDs are abusive.

A lot of systemic abuse comes from the dehumanisation of certain groups, and unfortunately despite our best efforts, we all internalise these attitudes on some level. This discrimination can be based on ethnicity, sexual orientation or gender, as well as people who are vulnerable generally (medical gaslighting of chronically ill people by doctors and psychiatrists, prisoners, the homeless, civilians on the opposite side in a war).

As for pwPDs, it depends on the particular personality disorder, the environment the pwPD is in, and how well the PD is managed by the pwPD. A pwPD who managed their symptoms well and did not take their pain out on others would not tend to be written about in a support forum and might not even be noticeable to others, and so abusers will tend to be over represented.