Claiming he has changed

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Bunnyme

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Re: Claiming he has changed
« Reply #20 on: July 06, 2021, 11:02:43 PM »
If you are able, I'd suggest not engaging him.   Dont get sucked into it.  I learned the hard way that PDs dont respond to logic.  You can lay out the most beautiful argument that no rational person could refute...but they arent rational.  Either a) ignore completely, or b) have one or two canned responses and stick to them.

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"It's been XX months, that's far too long. You have a great set up here, your life is all set up, while I'm suffering on my own. I want us to be a happy, healthy family. I don't see what the problem is. I just want us to move on from this trauma. I don't get it, why are you stalling?"
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I have made my decision, and I am sticking to it.

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"There would need to be intimacy. We'd have to have sex. I need intimacy in my life, I'm not prepared to just be roommates like we were before."
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I have made my decision, and I'm sticking to it.

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 "Yeah well I don't want our marriage to be like your parents marriage. I need my children to see that their dad is receiving plenty of affection, that I'm a sexual person."
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I have made my decision, and I'm sticking to it.

Dont get sucked into JADE (justifying, arguing, defending, or explaining). 
I've listened to a number of podcasts and youtube videos with best responses to give to narcissists, which have been helpful.  I mostly ignore everything that isnt related to the kids now.  It has been very hard, as I am a chronic over-explainer.  Someone asks me to hang out, I cant just say no thank you.  I feel the need to give a good enough reason to justify my choice...as if just feeling like being by myself isnt good enough.   :blush:

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Bunnyme

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Re: Claiming he has changed
« Reply #21 on: July 06, 2021, 11:07:29 PM »
If you are able, I'd suggest not engaging him.   Dont get sucked into it.  I learned the hard way that PDs dont respond to logic.  You can lay out the most beautiful argument that no rational person could refute...but they arent rational.  Either a) ignore completely, or b) have one or two canned responses and stick to them.

"It's been XX months, that's far too long. You have a great set up here, your life is all set up, while I'm suffering on my own. I want us to be a happy, healthy family. I don't see what the problem is. I just want us to move on from this trauma. I don't get it, why are you stalling?"
I have made my decision, and I am sticking to it.

"There would need to be intimacy. We'd have to have sex. I need intimacy in my life, I'm not prepared to just be roommates like we were before."
I have made my decision, and I'm sticking to it.

 "Yeah well I don't want our marriage to be like your parents marriage. I need my children to see that their dad is receiving plenty of affection, that I'm a sexual person."
I have made my decision, and I'm sticking to it.

Dont get sucked into JADE (justifying, arguing, defending, or explaining). 
I've listened to a number of podcasts and youtube videos with best responses to give to narcissists, which have been helpful.  I mostly ignore everything that isnt related to the kids now.  It has been very hard, as I am a chronic over-explainer.  Someone asks me to hang out, I cant just say no thank you.  I feel the need to give a good enough reason to justify my choice...as if just feeling like being by myself isnt good enough.   :blush:

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SeaBreeze

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Re: Claiming he has changed
« Reply #22 on: July 07, 2021, 03:10:15 PM »
These two jumped out to me:

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You have a great set up here, your life is all set up, while I'm suffering on my own.

He sees you are happier without him, while he's still the same miserable PD. How dare you not be miserable too?!

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The mad thing is that if I question things he says, then he laughs at me, scoffs, rolls his eyes, says 'are you kidding?! how can you not see that?!' etc.. making me feel like I am the crazy one for questioning.

Wow, that is not even an argument on his part. He is literally saying NOTHING here. Rather it's a take on the playground classic "I know you are, so what am I?' He can't explain what he means because *it can't be explained* so he passively tosses burden of proof back to you. Sorry, but in a court of law, burden of proof lays on the prosecution, not the defense. All the more reason not to JADE and fall into crazy making, gaslighting, etc with him. There is no logic to be debated or even politely discussed with PDs.

As for the sexual coercion, when you aren't even back in the same home together, let alone bedroom...he's showing you exactly who he is and telling you exactly what your life will be if you move back in together.

Listen to what he's really saying. Sounds like it's either "poor me" or...nothing. I'd speculate the love bombing has actually already  stopped, so the mask, already slipping, will likely drop soon as well. Hang in there and stay strong!
« Last Edit: July 07, 2021, 03:21:39 PM by SeaBreeze »

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CagedBirdSinging

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Re: Claiming he has changed
« Reply #23 on: July 07, 2021, 04:52:52 PM »
Thanks Seabreeze and Bunnyme. I know I shouldn't JADE. I know better at this stage. I have been GR and MC for years, but sometimes I just snap. I'm only human. Sometimes I can't bite my tongue any more, I just have to try and defend myself... but that's when these crazy-making conversations happen.

My other way of looking at things- my GR and MC has made it very easy for him to claim he has changed - because I have not been challenging him! He will say things like 'we haven't had a major argument in ages'... to which I think 'yeah, not since late 2019 when I discovered outofthefog.net!' The reason we haven't argued is that I have not JADE'd. I have been totally GR.

In a way, I need to drop the GR/MC, and I need to justify, argue, defend, like I would with a normal person, in order to get him to drop the mask and show me who he really is. Eg. He has not changed

While the conversation I described was not pleasant, it was actually a relief to see the real pd behind the mask of this 'changed man.'

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Bunnyme

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Re: Claiming he has changed
« Reply #24 on: July 08, 2021, 01:09:15 AM »
I can understand that as well.  It is such a delicate balance, and you definitely know your situation and what works best. 
I hope that you are able to get what you need from future conversations.  I so relate with needing to sometimes let them show their true colors

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SeaBreeze

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Re: Claiming he has changed
« Reply #25 on: July 08, 2021, 11:36:46 AM »
I get that, too! I lost it and snapped at uNPDh a few days ago. In the driveway where the neighbors could hear, no less. I quickly returned to MC but really, I said what needed to be said! H was surprisingly super-nice to me the rest of the day. But passively-aggressively threw a few quotes back at me, and in a totally illogical way, the very next day. So yes, the more things "change", the more they stay the same. We really can't un--see the PD once the FOG has lifted or at least thinned. Stay the course!
« Last Edit: July 08, 2021, 11:39:55 AM by SeaBreeze »

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CagedBirdSinging

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Re: Claiming he has changed
« Reply #26 on: July 08, 2021, 05:07:05 PM »
As for the sexual coercion, when you aren't even back in the same home together, let alone bedroom...he's showing you exactly who he is and telling you exactly what your life will be if you move back in together.

Just wanted to say thanks for this seabreeze. Sometimes I struggle with identifying is this sexual coercion or not- the gaslighting has been so bad, it is difficult to trust my own instincts. Also I've been with pdH for 5 years, and had a couple of pd relationships before that, so I have lost sight of what a normal relationship looks like eg a loving partner does not berate their spouse for lack of sex, but lovingly asks if they are ok, shows genuine concern and listens to the reply, without jumping immediately to "MY needs as a husband" etc.
Anyway thank you

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TimetoHeal

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Re: Claiming he has changed
« Reply #27 on: July 20, 2021, 08:48:37 PM »
Hi, I am new here, but reading your post reminded me of being in this same position with my exH after we divorced and before I set down very firm boundaries.  Do you have a custody/visitation agreement in place yet?  If so, stick to ONLY those times of him seeing the kids and have no other contact/communication with him.  If not, that needs to be #1 on your agenda.  An open-ended, come-over-whenver-he-feels-like it visitation is only giving him unfettered access to you and your emotions, and wearing you down like you said.  He should only be able to come to your house when and if you want him to.  It would be better if he had visitation at his own home away from you.  I know this is so hard to get to this point.  I just remember being there myself and I thought that because we had young children together that I had to let him come and go as he pleased.  He thought this too, and even said, "I have the right to visit the place where my kids live".  Um NO you don't!  I couldn't even begin to heal until I put a stop to this.  Anyway, my heart goes out to you because I know it's a very hard place.  Put those boundaries down, and it will be HARD at first, but you will get out from under his control and his spell and you will begin to heal. 

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noregrets

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Re: Claiming he has changed
« Reply #28 on: July 23, 2021, 02:21:40 PM »
When my ex moved out, only my 17 year old daughter was left at home, but my ex would come over to visit. After about 4 months , she told me that he couldnít come over anymore. She just laid the law down to me. She didnít want his dark energy in our house, that felt light and free for the first time in her life.  After that, we would only see him on neutral ground.  I am only telling you this because my child was old enough to tell me, yours are not old enough to tell you, so you have to protect a safe space for them.

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CagedBirdSinging

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Re: Claiming he has changed
« Reply #29 on: July 23, 2021, 03:19:14 PM »
Thank you so much, this is exactly what I need to hear!! Dark energy is so right. It's my word against his, and he denies everything. The only other people who witness everything are too young to tell me how they feel.