I want distance from SIL NPD/BPD

[nillah]

Hi there!

I am sorry to write such a long post! TLDR: how I put distance between me & SIL without hurting H's feelings?

I have met my SIL only 3 times, and after the 3rd time I came to realise that she most likely has a combination of NPD and BPD. The first time we met, she came to stay at our place for a weekend and it was all nice and fun. The second time my H and I went to her city for Christmas and practically stayed with her for a whole week (with some short breaks), and the experience of being around her left me incredibly angry, drained and confused for weeks after. I openly shared my feelings with my H and he was surprised to hear my perspective (I believe his coping mechanism around her is to completely disassociate, eg when we were there sometimes I would ask him about something that just happened and he wouldn't remember at all what he said). I told him that I do not think I can have SIL in my life because her behavior is out of this world and I can't keep getting this angry. H was surprised about my level of anger (he said he'd never seen me like that, we've been living together for 5 years), but he was also very stressed and sad about the idea of not having SIL in our lives in the future. So I thought it through, and decided that I must at least give her a chance to know how I felt over Christmas and give her a chance to share her side of the story. So I set up a call (and spent a tons of time preparing for the discussion, watching videos, reading, etc). In the call, just as I was starting to tell her that I didn't really enjoy the Christmas experience and before I could go into details, she started saying how she felt she wasn't herself because of the Christmas pressure and the having to host everybody. I thought oh this makes sense. So I decided that maybe the person she was over Christmas is a different person, and I just need to get to know the "real" and nice SIL at another time when everything is calm.

About a month ago, SIL decided to visit us for the weekend. I had already "forgotten" the Christmas experience, so I didn't think much about her coming over. I welcomed her without thinking twice about it, but then by the end of her visit I was left drained and angry again. She had managed to only speak about herself incessantly including very random irrelevant details, to shut me down whenever I tried to insert myself by sharing a little bit about my own life... It was only when I was journaling about my feelings afterwards that I realized I had experienced the same things as on Christmas! This was a big eye opener because this time around there were no external stressors so her initial excuse really wasn't the thing. But then, when I spoke with my H, he once again got very worried about the situation, and so once again I felt that I had to tell her how I felt so that I can give her a chance to "learn" (as per H's advice). I sent her voice messages explaining that I find it difficult to make a relationship with her if she does not show enough curiosity about me and my life, and I also told her that I was disappointed when she was offering random advice even after I had told her that I am not looking for advice (H listened to the voice msgs and thought they were nice and not confrontational). She responded saying she is too busy to respond though she mentioned that she felt misunderstood and hurt. Then a MONTH went by without her saying anything. She recently contacted me saying that she was shocked to learn that I have such a bad idea of our relationship and that she would like to have a call.

The issue is: I know I don't want to speak with her because I am now almost 100% sure that I don't want a relationship with her. During the month of SIL's silence, I spoke about her extensively with my therapist and therapist adviced that I keep a safe distance from her. All my own friends said the same. In fact, even my H's two bestfriends who used to live with SIL were super shocked that I had even tried to speak with her at all to begin with. During the month, I also spoke with H about the need to keep distance and what it could look like in practice (not spending a whole weekend together, me leaving the space whenever she comes around, etc). But he's still stressed about the situation and is afraid that he will end up in a situation where has to "pick sides". NOTE: I never told H that I think SIL has a PD. H thinks that she will one day return to being the person she once was (from childhood & teenage years), so this is why he wants to "keep the door open".

SIL has a degree in psychology (!) and is a social worker/soon-to-be-therapist (!). She likes to use psychology lingo to show that people are manipulating her and victimising her, or to belittle the others. This part genuinely scares me and makes me very anxious. On the recently visit she mindlessly confided in me how she was interpreting H's behavior and I was shocked at how much she was reading into small gestures to prove that he was manipulating her when clearly he didn't. Another example: over Christmas one morning she made eggs for us in the kitchen and once we started eating, I realised the eggs were unsalted and said so. She replied saying that she's being gaslight because she is sure she remembers adding the salt (I had watched her cook as it's a tiny kitchen and knew she hadn't... besides, "gaslight" really?!). I never replied when she did these things, but I am scared that if ever I have to "face" her she will use my vulnerability against me with some pseudo-psych analysis.

I have managed to always hold back my anger and only act thoughtfully but I am afraid that if I just continue to mindlessly expose myself to her, then one day I might just "lose it" and say sth hurtful. I really would rather keep her away for this reason alone. But I don't know how to do this: should I tell her that I would like distance/minimal contact? How would I even word this? I don't want say anything that she can decide to hold against me/use against me, or something that would make H think I don't give a sh*t. If she was a rando, I would have just walked away and not said anything, but since she's family, I am worried that not saying anything is just making awkward situations in the future. I don't know what to do...

Thanks a lot!

[roughdiamonds1]

It sounds like your SIL does indeed trigger something quite big in you, and perhaps even that you trigger something in her. Only you can decide whether trying to sit down and try and understand each other better is a good course of action. I guess there's the chance it could go well and you'd be able to understand more about her and adjust your relationship accordingly, or conversely it may lead you to decide you need to implement a specific strategy such as low contact or medium chill etc. I don't think your decision on which strategy to take is something you necessarily need to communicate, so if you decide to not to have a relationship with her, then I'd say it's just a case of living out your decision.

Just a side note, I've been on the receiving end of voice messages trying to let me know a problem, and honestly it didn't feel great. Like I was being talked at with no option to speak back. It's so hard to choose communication methods that are effective, there's a lot to anxiety around getting it wrong. In my experience, vulnerability and compassion are good places to start in any interpersonal problems, and when those fail several times, perhaps it's time to protect your heart.

[Cat of the Canals]

I think there's going to be some awkwardness going forward no matter what. Going another round with her doesn't seem like it would do much good - other than to give her potential ammunition to use against you or to allow her another opportunity deny responsibility for her behavior.

You've already laid it out for her multiple times. She was "too busy" to respond? Well you're "too busy" for this phone call she wants to have. (Of course, I wouldn't say that.) I agree with roughdiamonds1 that if your choice is to back away from the relationship, it's usually best to do so quietly and without confrontation. Definitely check out the "grey rock" and "medium chill" resources in the Toolbox for anytime you can't simply avoid her. There's a whole list of "medium chill" responses that I printed out and stuck to my fridge for dealing with PDmom and PDmil. It's probably going to feel strange and awkward and even a bit rude at first. That's normal. She might notice and complain that you've become "distant." You just blink and say, "I don't know what you mean." (After I started using MC on my MIL, she randomly said to me, "I'm sorry I'm so burdensome." It was so out of the blue that I said nothing.)

The thing is, just because you married her brother doesn't mean you're supposed to be best friends. Or even friends at all. It'd be nice if that were possible, but sometimes people are just incompatible. The fact that you've lived with your husband for five years and only met her 3 times sounds like this wasn't destined to be a close bond anyway.

As for your husband, these things go easiest if you keep in mind that his relationship with his sister is separate from yours. If he wants to spend time with her, he can do so without you. (And if there's any concern that she will try to manipulate him into "picking sides," then it might be wise to have a conversation now about how he should handle it: i.e. shutting down any attempts to talk badly about you behind your back or telling her "This is between you two. Leave me out of it." if she tries to get him to act as a go-between.)

[stowaway77]

Your story sounds a lot like my own, except my wife would be the one in your position and I would be in your husband's position. I have a NPD sister and we have done everything in our power to be understanding to her. It might help to hear our story so I'm going to tell it here in case it is helpful.

My wife comes from a healthy family with strong boundaries where she was loved and felt free to express her emotions. I came from a dysfunctional family. Parents were usually absent so I spent the most time with my NPD golden child sister. As a result, a narrative of "look how close the youngest siblings are" developed in my family. And my parents loved using that narrative as a front to hide the true dysfunction just beneath the surface. I became codependent, trying to please everyone and make everyone happy... having intense feelings of obligation over the years towards my sister and towards "family harmony".

My sister relentlessly teased me growing up (I now recognize it as emotional abuse - there was a couple of times she got physical too). She was a few years older so had the advantage of being further along in child development so could easily make me look bad. When my wife came along, my sister was terribly mean to her. She would do everything to make her look bad, talk about her behind her back to family members and friends, make fun of her accent, give her insulting presents, etc etc. And she constantly talked about herself. Even when my wife struggled with major health issues, she never asked nor cared about it. She also demanded that we fly halfway across the country to see her - frequently. While we were there she never did anything that a host should do for a guest and demanded that we paid her some money because we were living at her place. All of this while we were financially less well-off than her.

My NPD mom normalized this behavior so for a very long time, I didn't even realize teasing and laughing at someone like that was abuse. My wife was really really disturbed by everything that was happening. Like I said, she comes from a healthy family and had a strong sense of what love looked like and felt to her core that this was all wrong - not just how my sister treated her, but more critically how my sister treated me. But she went along with me and supported me in trying to keep a functional relationship with my sister because it seemed like "the right thing to do".

We did try talking to her maybe three times. But like your SIL, she would make excuses about how she was sick or stressed that time, or she was "confused", or something hurtful she said was just a joke. The worst thing is that my parents enabled her behavior hardcore and started blaming us for disturbing the family harmony. They called us selfish for not being more understanding of her. You see, my sister would always run off complaining to them about us every time she sensed we wanted to talk about her behavior, as to turn them against us first.

It took me a few years to really see just how dysfunctional my family was. I looked up some resources and found out about family roles like the golden child and the scapegoat. I realized that my family was full of toxic people who thrived on drama (look up the "Karpman drama triangle"). I also realized that I have been dissociating all my life to cope with this toxicity. And that the only healthy thing now was to distance myself  and to look after my family. Luckily my wife is a very secure person who wasn't affected by this whole thing too much. But I very very much regret not pulling us out of the situation sooner. I wanted to avoid conflict at all cost above protecting my wife.

I really encourage you to get together with your husband and look up dysfunctional family systems (as one of my favorite psychologists says, behind a dysfunctional person is almost certainly a dysfunctional family). Be very cautious when confronting her about her behavior. Be aware that potentially anything you say can be twisted and used against you. Ultimately it pretty much all depends on your husband. It would be very difficult to distance yourself if he doesn't realize the need first (my wife knew this and so was patient with me and waited for me to come around). But as others have said, you can definitely use "medium chill" and "grey rock" to protect yourself.

[nillah]

My wife was really really disturbed by everything that was happening. Like I said, she comes from a healthy family and had a strong sense of what love looked like and felt to her core that this was all wrong - not just how my sister treated her, but more critically how my sister treated me.

Thanks for sharing your story! It was the hardest to read only because I can relate so much. I don't think I can say that my family was 100% healthy growing up, but I definitely felt like something is terribly wrong when I found my SIL shouting at my husband off the tops of her lungs for what felt like ages only because of some misunderstanding of who sleeps where. It was scary to watch how everyone cowered in that space and tried to minimize themselves. It was also heartbreaking watching my husband being on the receiving end and not being able to do anything about it. This was one of the instances where soon afterwards, I asked him what she had said to him in the fight and he couldn't remember (I thought: whoa, looks like disassociating!).

I can also relate to enabling parents, because their mom is also a very conflict avoidant person and is always trying to brush things over or end up so anxious that my husband has to soothe her. It is a very strange dynamic.

My husband is still deep in denial about her, but also about his own psychological issues. He doesn't want to see a therapist but also doesn't say he doesn't want to see a therapist... he's just been postponing the phone call for 2 years now. Because of this, I don't think it's good for me to bring up the resources you shared about family dynamics because I just don't think he's ready. He's really got a long way to go in self-awareness before we can cross that bridge. Thank you though for the link, I'll have a look

Thanks also to all show pointed me out to the "Toolbox" because I had missed that part of the website entirely! Some really helpful tips there.