Biblical Marriage Obligations

[tragedy or hope]

IMO I add, mental health is a man-made description of a person unable to or unwilling to submit their own self-will to God. I could get into more detail about the "fathers" of mental health or the ways in which mental health professionals have deemed things as mental illness but that is not the discussion here nor do I feel it is appropriate because many here do lean toward what some would call professionals.

Differing with SoT, I again believe, marriage is for life, Abuse is sin. One must protect oneself and their children from physical violence. Men... people use the term abuse as if it came from God or the bible. It does not. Sin is clearly defined in every aspect of what the world calls abuse.
One may get help, report to authorities, seek counsel from their religious leaders and/or, leave for a period of time, or for a lifetime.

However, God hates divorce and leaves the door open for such only in the instance of adultery and only if the offended partner cannot live with the offense. Still, forgiveness helps the offended. It is not for the relief of the offender.

Christ told us to forgive, 70 times 7. Feelings are personal according to each persons personality. What may hurt me, would not even be an issue for another. IMO the world has taken what God ordained and corrupted it by "counseling" people that they should make themselves happy. I believe God ordained this life to make us holy not happy. My happiness lies in my peace with God, regardless of my cirumstances. The world divorces at the drop of a hat as did the Pharisees. We are not pharisees. We are children of the King. If the King cannot assist us, who can. It is not my place to tell my King how to orchestrate my life..

Take the instance of Abigail and Nabal,(whose name means failure) he was a stupid drunk and could have cost them their lives. She on the other hand knew better than to deny David food. Point being, some of us do live with what would be described as "failures" by God himself. But... He hardened Nabals heart and 10 days later Abigail was free and became the wife of  King David.

I stand on scripture and the fact that God is all wise and all knowing, soveriegn and a seer of all things done to his children, and children in general. Anyone who is in a emotionally abusive relationship can ask God for help. He will help His way in His time.

His expectation is for us to preserve our own lives as necessary. Adults are not helpless and if so, they can ask for help from the one whose Son was powerful enough to die for and cover their sin forever. I am not a sacrifice, but my bible tells me my life is a living sacrifice to God.
That being said, I am not here to be sure I have no trials, or continuing challenges. I am here to be perfected until the day of my own glory. God knows what I need, who I need and why I need the things that go on in my life. My trust and my hope is in the authority of the King and His word.

If I am in error, He surely will correct me because I know I am utterly loved. Men make plans and use their own wisdom and God laughs.

Thanks for the great discussion.
Sorry to doghousedweller for absconding your subject... but really this discussion is relative to your challenges.

[SonofThunder]

Tragedy,

Yes, it has been a great discussion and thank you.  Thanks also for the Biblical examples to reinforce your beliefs.  Its a joy to be able to have a serious discussion such as this one, and do so with mutual respect and kindness, even when we have differing opinions. 

I agree also that this discussion is relative to doghouse's challenges and original subject.   I look forward to great additional discussions in the near future.  I wish the best to doghouse in the subject of his original post. 

SoT

[1footouttadefog]

The Bible indicates God allowed divirse due to hard heartedness.  He at the same time hated divorse.

He hates sin in general.  He hates pride also.

I think the old and new testament scriptures taken together give a balanced view.

I figure we don't have to stay married to someone of they would have been stoned to death in biblical times. 

[thedoghousedweller]

SoT, "Sorry to doghousedweller for absconding your subject... but really this discussion is relative to your challenges."

No need for the apology.  The discussion is enlightening, and I'm following your other thread.  It's also good to know that I am not the only one struggling in this.  In fact, I met with a friend in the last couple of days who is facing a similar situation, and his convictions are aligned with mine.  He plans work time away with extended family just to keep sane, and the family help him stay accountable. 

I know that divorce would be a life-killer for my children.  They've been through enough.  The key is for me to is to have enough space to maintain my sanity but to avoid the vices that often come with separation.  Somehow, a lot of people push through similar situations without sinking.  I'm working on that formula. 

[SonofThunder]

SoT, "Sorry to doghousedweller for absconding your subject... but really this discussion is relative to your challenges."

No need for the apology.  The discussion is enlightening, and I'm following your other thread.  It's also good to know that I am not the only one struggling in this.  In fact, I met with a friend in the last couple of days who is facing a similar situation, and his convictions are aligned with mine.  He plans work time away with extended family just to keep sane, and the family help him stay accountable. 

I know that divorce would be a life-killer for my children.  They've been through enough.  The key is for me to is to have enough space to maintain my sanity but to avoid the vices that often come with separation.  Somehow, a lot of people push through similar situations without sinking.  I'm working on that formula.

doghouse, I'm glad to hear you have found a balance that is key.  Yes, balanced physical space is helpful, as well as the space that proper boundaries create for us, when we are around the PD's in our life.  As you progress into your choices for yourself and balance, I highly recommended you study, mentally practice and then fully carry out the use of the Out of the FOG tools.  Especially boundaries, mc, noJADE, 51%rule and 50%rule.  I also highly recommend you read 'Boundaries in Marriage' by Cloud and Townsend and 'Stop Caretaking the Borderline and Narcissist' by Fjelstad. 

Lastly, you stated that divorce would be a life-killer for your kiddos.  Some here, that are now on the other side of divorce would counter your opinions on that subject but this thread is about marital obligations.  I came Out of the FOG when my kids were off at college.  They are now both married in their mid and upper 20's.  But I can now see the emotional baggage that they each carry, due to being raised in a home with a PD and a caretaker.  I do not have opinions regarding children being removed from that difficult situation, but as I said, many others here have valuable input.  All I will add is that you imo, in your decision to stay, have the full responsibility to protect your children as best possible from the effects of a PDmom, because your children do not have legal adult rights like you, nor the possible Out of the FOG education that you have/will have, nor the resources to protect themselves like you do. 

All the best in your balance. 

SoT

[JustKeepTrying]

doghousedweller,

I would like to reinforce SoT and encourage you to rethink your position on your children.  I am not advocating divorce - that is a deeply personal decision and I gather from your original post you are struggling with it.  Understandable.

What I want to say is that children are resilient.  Often we project our uncomfortable feelings and assume that the difficulties we feel they are feeling.  That is not always the way.  While I stayed with my OCPDxh for a period was because our son has autism.  I did not think I could do it on my own.  I should have left because looking back - I did it on my own anyway and managed an individual with PD.  Double stress.  And the long-term effects of that kind of stress are real and incalculable. 

Just remember that if you give your children love, keep an even temper and show by example - they will follow you.  On another post, an individual reminded someone of this - "remember when your children looked to you to see if they could touch something?"  That is the case now.

Also, consider the trauma they are currently experiencing with a PD in their house.

As always, I will keep you in my prayers and say an additional rosary for you and your family.

[Mary]

The complete rejection of intimacy (we're going on three years now - she makes sure I'm asleep when she is in bed).  Her condemnation of my family.  The isolation from her family and the request for me to not contact her family (which I have honored). 

She is an uSPDw.  While somewhat veiled in our early years, the symptoms have all surfaced in recent years as she had a severe health issue, and my business failed.  She only trusts a couple of people.  She dropped almost all of her close friends, and lost touch with all her cousins.  Her "counselor" told her 3.5 years ago that she needed to take some time to heal herself.  She works on that full time.  No time for a job to help financially.  Rather, she reads the Bible, watches sermons, and watches TV shows all day.  I don't have any issue with Bible studying, but half of our bathroom mirror (8 feet x 4 feet) is covered with stickies of her learnings and collected quotes.  There are over 60 attached to the mirror. 

I still can't get over the 3 years...Imo, she has already separated from you. She is in direct violation of I Cor. 7:3-5.
There are several similarities in what you wrote to my situation such as these:  my uPDh rejecting my family and sometimes his; intense immersion in the Bible, worship songs, sermons, listening to the audio Bible, etc.; and isolation from friends. But the intimacy issue is a big big deal for your marriage if it is to survive. When I finally, after 6 years decided enough was enough and drew a boundary in the bedroom, DH punished me with weeks of silent treatment, cancelled a much-anticipated family trip, and announced a couple of times that he would never sleep with me again.  I had read that in that type of marriage-busting situation, you should raise Cain, like throwing a rock through a window (D. Pearl, 2004). Now, I am a keep-the-peace caretaker personality, and I don't raise Cain. But what I did surprised myself and brought about the shock and awe I was after. You'll probably think it is dumb that what I did was such a big deal for us, but I had NEVER done such a thing. What I did was bought a plane ticket without asking permission, and flew across the country to visit a friend for a week.  It took him about a year to get over it, but the bedroom issue resolved immediately, and has never surfaced again. Aside from doing all SoT has just advised you, which will work,  I think you need to pray about your own shock and awe. You will need the faith T/H describes because, trust me, there will most certainly be fallout to face afterward. God will carry you through this.

I Peter 5:10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.

Continued prayers for us all,
Mary

[thedoghousedweller]

Mary and JKT, thank you for the responses.  I am currently reading the "Stop Caretaking" book SoT recommended, and it is helping.  I'm learning about what I am dealing with and how I am enabling it as well. 

It is sobering to recognize that I will be celibate for the rest of my life in this marriage.  However, I am staying.  I am setting boundaries and stopping with the excuses that I have made for her behavior to others.

Part of what has struck me is the extent to which I apologized for the wrongs I had done to her and the children.  I owned my part.  In contrast, I cannot remember the last time she apologized or even admitted making a mistake.

Her disassociative behavior when she did a number of damaging things was not caused by her, rather childhood trauma, in her mind.    She often criticizes me and my choices of work or friends or even TV shows, but refuses to examine herself.

In several ways, I am done.  I no longer hope for love out of this relationship. I no longer will expect a romantic reconciliation.  I will find "work on the ranch that needs to be done" when the kids are away.   I plan to attend anything socially alone.  In independence, I will find strength though I would desire to be a couple.

I realize that Jesus used the parable of a mustard seed for a reason.  I think part of the story is that often that's about all the faith we have.  Even a small amount is sufficient. 

God bless you.
DHD

[SonofThunder]

DHD, you sound confident in your realizations decisions and im glad to hear!  I wish you the best in your pursuit of change for yourself, while living with a PD.  The Out of the FOG toolbox is a 'best friend' and i highly recommend you keep that friend alongside like a brother.  Especially Medium-Chill, noJADE, proper boundaries, the 51% rule to keep you healthy and 50% rule for keeping you grounded. 

SoT

[1footouttadefog]

If you stay, I support that and recommend you build all other aspects of life anew without her.

New friendships that she does not poison, fitness, eating, time with kids and family in ways not spoiled buy pd, hobbies, trips, music, books, art, time with guy friends, etc etc.

[SonofThunder]

If you stay, I support that and recommend you build all other aspects of life anew without her.

New friendships that she does not poison, fitness, eating, time with kids and family in ways not spoiled buy pd, hobbies, trips, music, books, art, time with guy friends, etc etc.

  I will add this onto that great tip:  in my experiences, both growing up with my uPDf and married to my uPDw, PD's slowly erode-away who we are, who we desire to be, and slowly brainwash by manipulation, control, and forcing us to choose between the lesser of two evils in all the lose/lose situations. 

After a period of time, we potentially end up in this state of self-identity limbo.  So, in addition to 1foot's great tip, start potentially rediscovering who you are; who you desire to be and boldly become that person, using the toolbox to protect yourself on this new journey, even in the midst of remaining married to a PD. 

It's interesting as you begin to do this, it may reveal areas of attempted PD control you may have never realized, such as hair preferences, beard or no-beard, clothing style, glasses shape, vacation preferences, social or no social desires, television on/off or TV show choices, balanced and healthy enjoyment of beer, wine, spirits and so on.  It's time to reclaim your own doghouse and balance it with the toolbox (mc, noJADE, boundaries, 51% rule and 50% rule).

Again, wishing you the best,

SoT

[Mary]

IMO I add, mental health is a man-made description of a person unable to or unwilling to submit their own self-will to God.

That's a really interesting take on things T/H. I've been pondering it since you wrote it.
Mary

[thedoghousedweller]

DHD, you sound confident in your realizations decisions and im glad to hear!  I wish you the best in your pursuit of change for yourself, while living with a PD.  The Out of the FOG toolbox is a 'best friend' and i highly recommend you keep that friend alongside like a brother.  Especially Medium-Chill, noJADE, proper boundaries, the 51% rule to keep you healthy and 50% rule for keeping you grounded. 

Again, thank you for the advice.  It's interesting the way God works, that only I can see in hindsight.  In the past three weeks - as I have been soul searching hard on this issue - God brought four of my best friends into my presence, three of whom are strong believers, the other a little uncertain.  I've known these guys for 10 to 25 years.  A couple of them invited me to lunch, another to breakfast.  In any case, it gave me the opportunity to uncover the challenge that I have had and certainly gave me the sense that I'm not alone.  God is working through others to guide me through this journey.  I just need to get out of the habit of hiding my uSPDw's behavior from those who are close to me.  If God is doing this for me, He is doing it for others as well!  DHD

[SonofThunder]

DHD, you sound confident in your realizations decisions and im glad to hear!  I wish you the best in your pursuit of change for yourself, while living with a PD.  The Out of the FOG toolbox is a 'best friend' and i highly recommend you keep that friend alongside like a brother.  Especially Medium-Chill, noJADE, proper boundaries, the 51% rule to keep you healthy and 50% rule for keeping you grounded. 

Again, thank you for the advice.  It's interesting the way God works, that only I can see in hindsight.  In the past three weeks - as I have been soul searching hard on this issue - God brought four of my best friends into my presence, three of whom are strong believers, the other a little uncertain.  I've known these guys for 10 to 25 years.  A couple of them invited me to lunch, another to breakfast.  In any case, it gave me the opportunity to uncover the challenge that I have had and certainly gave me the sense that I'm not alone.  God is working through others to guide me through this journey.  I just need to get out of the habit of hiding my uSPDw's behavior from those who are close to me.  If God is doing this for me, He is doing it for others as well!  DHD

DHD, You are very welcome.  I'm glad to read that you have a few close face-to-face confidants in which to share your truths in private, for reasons of obtaining sound wisdom and insight, as well as allow them to come alongside you as friends, as you walk your personal  journey down this path. 

You surely understand that your fellow path-mates, here on Out of the FOG understand the personal struggles you face along the PD journey, in ways that other people, not experienced in living/relations with a PD, can possibly understand.  Therefore we are also here virtually, as fellow journeymen/women. 

I understand what you meant when you wrote: " I just need to get out of the habit of hiding my uSPDw's behavior from those who are close to me."  You are speaking of the ability to share your personal struggles with these confidants in which you mentioned.  I will also add an additional meaning to your sentence.   

In the book 'Stop Caretaking the Borderline and Narcissist' by Fjelstad, much of the wisdom gleaned from that book is learning about ourselves, in the caretaking role we perform. That role is an exhausting role, as we work hard to "hide my uSPDw's behavior..." by soothing the PD in ways that are unbalanced.  As we get ourselves out of the caretaking role, you will free yourself and your PDw's behaviors will be on display in your home and potentially with others, and all you will be doing is controlling yourself (boundaries). 

Therefore you will not proactively alert others to PD behaviors, but simply stop caretaking your PD and others to prevent the traits visibility.  The visibility of the traits will then land squarely on the full adult responsibility of your PDw, while you simply focus on protecting yourself using the Out of the FOG toolbox. 

SoT

[tragedy or hope]

Congrats DogHD,
You are now no longer in bondage to your secret. John Bradshaw used to say, and I give a bad paraphrase, that "whatever is the most secret among us is the most common."  I can imagine your friends expressing a sigh of relief. First because they probably felt something was amiss in your relationship on an unconscious level and secondly, they too may be struggling with someone around them. Third, you now have opened up a door to real fellowship where God can intervene and be glorified by all of you when you see Him work.

I don't know what in this life is harder than to be completely honest about our pain. Thankfully these are good friends, who really do care. The relief of having someone who really hears us is often all we need to regain our balance. Good for you!