Emotional Abuse and Separation/Divorce

[Mary]

Hi SoT and friends,
In reading your recent posts on this topic, I had a feeling there was something really hard going on behind the scenes. I'm so very sorry to hear about the physical difficulties that you are experiencing.

I have several thoughts and resources to consider.

First, I agree with several people that separation is allowed in dire situations, as Paul advises in I Cor 7:10-11 not to leave, but if you do, remain unmarried or reconcile. To me, if you decide to separate, this is your biblical grounds.  I have read Leslie Vernick's book you linked, The Emotionally Destructive Marriage, as well as her book, The Emotionally Destructive Relationship. I highly recommend them both. I also took her online Conquer course. She has lots of free youtubes and facebook lives. Her advice has been invaluable in my journey Out of the FOG. One thing that I noticed in listening in on her counseling calls, is that typically separation is the beginning of the end. I think the best thing I have learned from her is how to be compassionate, yet say no.

Second, I disagree with your argument regarding, "what God has joined together, let not man put asunder." In particular, I don't side with your interpretation that since your marriage did not start purely with God's stamp of approval, it is not a valid marriage. Jesus acknowledged that the woman at the well had previously had 5 husbands. She had been married, in God's eyes, 5 times, and I doubt they all started out right. (As an aside, the Chosen series shows this scene, and it's awesome.) I believe that this would be the orthodox view Christian's have held for many years.

Third, I believe that God knows our limits, and will act accordingly. For example, God eventually killed Saul who had a PD in my opinion. The Bible talks about the sin unto death--sometimes He will take an unrepentant Christian out of the picture in some way so they can ultimately be saved. I think I've seen it happen several times. Authors Michael and Debi Pearl have encouraged me that if God is still being patient with the person, I can be too.  They have also put the fear of God into me regarding the effects of divorce especially on children, which I know yours are now grown. I have learned a ton from these authors in making a hard marriage work, and it has been good advice. Yet it is not always completely relevant given the nature of the PD. It is important to remember the intended audiences, and discuss specific circumstances with mentors who understand the situation. As you have noted, you are in a grey area. If it were me, I would kneel down and have a heart-to-heart with the Lord about the medical issues and needing Him to intervene and asking for wisdom--like in 2 Chr 20:12 (One of my favorite verses).
O our God, wilt thou not judge them? for we have no might against this great company that cometh against us; neither know we what to do: but our eyes are upon thee.
Article link-https://nogreaterjoy.org/articles/abusive-husband/

On a practical note, the situation almost seems akin to an aging spouse needing to put the other spouse into a nursing home because they can't physically care for them anymore.

Finally, I think that this discussion has highlighted a huge hole in the counseling literature. So many of us want our PD-plagued marriages to survive, but  many authors don't get into the nitty-gritty of what it looks like to make that happen. In my opinion, they adequately describe the problem, explain the abuse cycle, give some tips, and then jump quickly to either separation or martyrdom as the solution. The best resource I have found is a Christian mentor that I found who has lived it out in her own life for many years married to an uPDh and has Godly grown children. I dump on her, she identifies, and then we hash out what to do next. I find her to tone me down as we find positive ways to say no, etc. Certainly the books have a place, but there is no substitute for talking with a well-chosen someone about particulars of a situation. I digress.

In sum, I think God allows separation. Alternatively, he may want you to hang in there for His glory. Or, my favorite, He may have a creative way of intervening so you won't have to. He's going to see you through this SoT. We're rooting for you.

Mary

[SonofThunder]

Mary,

Thank you so much for your thoughtful, detailed and heartfelt reply.  I very much appreciate us all allowing each other, in full respect,  to disagree in areas of opinion and translation and the input all are sharing. 

For clarity, i am not currently contemplating divorce or separation or having any particular trouble other than my 'normal' life with a PD 😂.   Rather, instead of hijacking another members thread, in which a few of us here were responding, i opened up this topic for discussion on my own thread.  In addition, my physical prostate suffering was many years ago, before coming Out of the FOG, and that now is thankfully over and preventable in the future (another discussion topic some other time/place).  But Mary, thanks so much for your concern.  😊

Therefore this is simply a round table, wide-open discussion on the topic of emotional abuse and separation/divorce on the religious forum so if one chooses, they can talk religious views all they desire.  Its nice to know that Vernick's materials were helpful and therefore endorsed trustworthy by another member here on Out of the FOG.   I fully agree with you regarding counseling literature lacking in this sensitive area.  Thanks again!

SoT

[SonofThunder]

Second, I disagree with your argument regarding, "what God has joined together, let not man put asunder." In particular, I don't side with your interpretation that since your marriage did not start purely with God's stamp of approval, it is not a valid marriage.

Hi Mary, I have been revisiting Matthew 19: 3-9 and trying to put myself in the scene.  Obviously the Pharisees are trying to trap Jesus in some way, to ultimately figure out a way to eliminate him.  They are trying to trip him up on Mosaic law. 

But Christ goes back pre-Mosaic law to explain that God did not originally design marriage to be broken apart but that man's sin has caused it to happen.  But like the woman at the well, Christ supernaturally knows the minds and hearts of the Pharisees, and addresses what's REALLY on their hearts. 

Also, I went back to Mosaic law and find that regarding divorce, there are three separate issues discussed.  Morality/defilement pre-marriage, 'indecency' during marriage (not infidelity) and adultery post-divorce. 

Deuteronomy 22 (New American Standard Bible)

Subject: 
-Morality
-Wife not a virgin pre marriage/sexual immorality pre-marriage
-Husband not aware wife is not a virgin until after marriage
-Defiling the Wife's fathers home
-Husband shaming innocent wife (regarding her virginity)
-Resulting punishment depending on the investigation
(Parentheses mine)

13 "If any man takes a wife and goes in to her and then turns against her, 14 and he charges her with shameful behavior and publicly defames her, and says, 'I took this woman, but when I came near her, I did not find her to have evidence of virginity (deception, immorality),' 15 then the girl's father and her mother shall take and bring out the evidence of the girl's virginity to the elders of the city at the gate. 16 And the girl's father shall say to the elders, 'I gave my daughter to this man as a wife, but he turned against her; 17 and behold, he has charged her with shameful behavior, saying, "I did not find your daughter to have evidence of virginity." But this is the evidence of my daughter's virginity.' And they shall spread out the garment before the elders of the city. 18 Then the elders of that city shall take the man and rebuke him (false accusation), 19 and they shall fine him a hundred shekels of silver and give it to the girl's father, because he publicly defamed a virgin of Israel. And she shall remain his wife; he is not allowed to divorce her all his days (because he was at fault for trying to shame her reputation).

20 "But if this charge is true, and they did not find the girl to have evidence of virginity, 21 then they shall bring the girl out to the doorway of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death, because she has committed a disgraceful sin in Israel by playing the prostitute in her father's house (not because it shamed her husband); so you shall eliminate the evil from among you.
-——-

Deuteronomy 24 (New American Standard Bible)
Subject:
-Divorce
-Not necessarily talking about sexual infidelity
-Remarrying same woman if her 2nd husband dies or divorces her also
-Indecency (define?) during marriage
-Certificate of divorce
(Parentheses mine/CAPS mine)

*Since Deuteronomy 22 is discussing infidelity (cheating), I take it that 'indecency' in Deuteronomy 24 is NOT talking about infidelity.   

24 "When a man takes a wife and marries her, and it happens, if she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some indecency in her (define?), that he writes her a certificate of divorce (Moses lays out the legal proceeding for a divorce/see Matthew 19 reference below), puts it in her hand, and sends her away from his house, 2 and she leaves his house and goes and becomes another man's wife, 3 and the latter husband turns against her (he finds indecency also), writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand, and sends her away from his house, OR (caps mine for emphasis)  if the latter husband who took her to be his wife dies, 4 then her former husband who sent her away is not allowed to take her again to be his wife, after she has been defiled (had sex with another man); for that is an abomination before the Lord, and you shall not bring sin on the land which the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance.
---
Matthew 19 (New American Standard Bible)
Subject:
-Divorce
-Jesus tested
-Gods original design for marriage; sin muddies it.
-Mosaic law (God assigned Moses to give the law)
-Difference between sexual immorality (cheating) and divorce for other reasons and it's affect on what is determined to be adultery (after divorce)
-What God put together (God-arranged marriage vs Man-arranged)

19 When Jesus had finished these words, He left Galilee and came into the region of Judea beyond the Jordan; 2 and large crowds followed Him, and He healed them there.

3 Some Pharisees came to Jesus, testing Him and asking, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any reason at all? (See Deuteronomy 24 for their reference)" 4 And He answered and said, "Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning made them male and female, 5 and said, 'For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'? 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has joined together, no person is to separate." 7 They said to Him, "Why, then, did Moses command to give her a certificate of divorce and send her away?" 8 He said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart Moses permitted you to divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way. 9 And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality (see Deuteronomy 22), and marries another woman commits adultery."
———-
Again, providing verses for continued discussion.  It's clear to me , in my own interpretation, that 'indecency' and 'no favor in his eyes' is NOT talking about infidelity, so I will be looking into those 2 terms.  It's also clear to me though (using Mosaic law), that divorce for the reason of 'indecency'  (not infidelity) would result in adultery if remarriage occurred for me.  But that infidelity in my spouse, resulting in divorce, nullifies the adultery of a remarriage (using Mosaic law as the judge).

Jesus also knows they are 1. Trying to trip him up on Mosaic law (just like the stoning of the adulterer scene) and find a reason to kill him.  2. Focused on their own sexual pleasures/desires by cheapening divorce to a man's right to file papers for any reasons. (It was surely a man's culture in those days and women had it so very tough).

So, since Jesus is really referencing three Old Testament teachings:
-Gods original design of marriage (sins effect on marriage)
-Deuteronomy 22 (infidelity=no papers given and morality)
-Deuteronomy 24 (papers for 'indecency' and adultery)

I will be considering the differences regarding.  As always, full discussion is welcome.

SoT

[Mary]

Hi SoT,
Thank you for clarifying that misunderstanding!

The verses you laid out are so interesting. Through this thread/study, it's apparent that God is really trying to communicate his heart and vision to us through the topic of marriage and divorce--woven through the old and new testaments in varying contexts.

On the Deuteronomy 24 reference, about remarriage not allowed to the same person after divorce, I find Jeremiah 3 mind blowing. God is divorced?!! But still wants Israel, pictured as his wife, to return to him, despite Deuteronomy 24?

Jer 3:3 They say, If a man put away his wife, and she go from him, and become another man's, shall he return unto her again? shall not that land be greatly polluted? but thou hast played the harlot with many lovers; yet return again to me, saith the Lord.

Jer 3:8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

Jer 3:14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the Lord; for I am married unto you:

Jer 3:20 Surely as a wife treacherously departeth from her husband, so have ye dealt treacherously with me, O house of Israel, saith the Lord.

This makes me think of the story of when the disciples picked and ate corn on the Sabbath, but Jesus said in that case it was fine. The law had its place but it had a purpose and a limit. Maybe that applies here, where God is allowing Himself to re-associate with His former wife, Israel. We also see Him asking Hosea to do the same with his unfaithful wife.

At any rate, it shocks me that God is divorced, and that He knows that abandonment and rejection. And I think through His dealings with Israel, shows His fierce love and jealousy and passion for me. Amazing love--blows me away.

Mary

PS-A little book I've enjoyed that goes way in depth on this topic:
https://nogreaterjoy.org/shop/the-bible-on-divorce-and-remarriage

[WearyHusband]

I plan to read through the rest of the posts on this thread later (have read several) as well as look at the article links you posted, SoT. I am a person of faith, actually employed in vocational ministry for many years, married for 20 years to wife who I strongly suspect is uPD. I'm learning to exit the Caretaker role and set boundaries for the first time in 20 years, after our relationship has been spiraling in increasing cycles of chaos for many years - increasingly so in the last four years. The result of my setting boundaries has been a further pulling away and emotional distance, though I've seen a decrease in the berating, gaslighting, circular arguing, etc, simply because I'm learning to recognize it and walk away.

A legitimate question I am wrestling with is, "At what point do my wife's choices and behaviors warrant a violation of the marriage covenant?" In other words, I wonder if she has actually already left the marriage, though she refuses to pursue divorce. if I choose to pursue a divorce is that's merely recognizing what has already happened and moving on with my life? My wife refuses sexual contact or physical affection (though she says she hopes for that in the future), regularly dissociates/forgets abusive behavior, innumerable examples of PD dynamics. She refuses to get a psychiatric evaluation or go to a third party marriage therapist together.

I've also wrestled with the "in sickness and in health" vow, thinking if my wife had a disease, I wouldn't leave for that reason. But then I begin to think that this is just false-guilt and self-blame that have typified our marriage. I settle back on the realization that it may be that she's actually already left the marriage by virtue of her repeated, unrepentant actions, and if I pursue divorce this may simply be moving on to her already being gone. I don't think there's a clear Biblical answer.

I'd also point out that it may be worth looking at the context of Jesus' teaching about divorce - he was addressing a patriarchal culture and a group of men who most likely viewed marriage flippantly, not as a life-long covenant with their wife, which gave men the upper hand in casually dismissing their wives and leaving them to a second-tier status and often unable to support themselves financially unless they shacked up with another man.

[SonofThunder]

Hi SoT,
Thank you for clarifying that misunderstanding!

The verses you laid out are so interesting. Through this thread/study, it's apparent that God is really trying to communicate his heart and vision to us through the topic of marriage and divorce--woven through the old and new testaments in varying contexts.

On the Deuteronomy 24 reference, about remarriage not allowed to the same person after divorce, I find Jeremiah 3 mind blowing. God is divorced?!! But still wants Israel, pictured as his wife, to return to him, despite Deuteronomy 24?

Jer 3:3 They say, If a man put away his wife, and she go from him, and become another man's, shall he return unto her again? shall not that land be greatly polluted? but thou hast played the harlot with many lovers; yet return again to me, saith the Lord.

Jer 3:8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

Jer 3:14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the Lord; for I am married unto you:

Jer 3:20 Surely as a wife treacherously departeth from her husband, so have ye dealt treacherously with me, O house of Israel, saith the Lord.

This makes me think of the story of when the disciples picked and ate corn on the Sabbath, but Jesus said in that case it was fine. The law had its place but it had a purpose and a limit. Maybe that applies here, where God is allowing Himself to re-associate with His former wife, Israel. We also see Him asking Hosea to do the same with his unfaithful wife.

At any rate, it shocks me that God is divorced, and that He knows that abandonment and rejection. And I think through His dealings with Israel, shows His fierce love and jealousy and passion for me. Amazing love--blows me away.

Mary

PS-A little book I've enjoyed that goes way in depth on this topic:
https://nogreaterjoy.org/shop/the-bible-on-divorce-and-remarriage

Mary, I enjoyed reading your input and opinions.  Your Jeremiah verses are interesting indeed, and i want to add an additional comment for consideration in this thread.   Jeremiah 3:3 seems to contradict the Mosaic law of Deuteronomy 24.  I am of understanding that the Bible does not contradict itself; therefore, when I believe I have found a contradiction, I will ask myself if I'm misunderstanding one of the two verses.   

In 3:3 (from your reply above) the Lord asks "... shall not that land be greatly polluted?"  Imo, the key to that polluted comment are the words "and she become another man's".   If she did not become another man's, then it would be similar scene to Deuteronomy 22, when the man was incorrect regarding her virginity (turned against her) and is now required to remain her husband (turn back to her). 

I do not believe God is going against Deuteronomy 24, but rather confirming 24 and then saying that despite the law given to protect the land and peoples from rampant human polluting, that he is GOD....and extending grace to the returning harlot.  Just as the prodigal sons father (God) and Jesus (God), receives the sinner home in grace, if the sinner turns to/back to God.  We humans are not God.  I do not believe I'm reading that God is instructing humans to abandon the land/people's protective law of Deuteronomy 24, but rather that as mere humans, we need these boundaries to not defile the whole place, but GOD??  He's not human. 

I will also point out that none of the Jeremiah verses you quoted, has God NOT getting divorced to the defilers; the harlots; the backsliders.  Those verses do have GOD being GOD and going way beyond the law (accepting the defiler back when they come back ON THEIR OWN), because he is God-capable versus us humans. 

So I ask myself, "am I better than God?.... to not allow divorce? ;  to demonstrate (to my land/children) that I will rather accept and put up with (emotional, physical, abandoning) defilement of the covenant vs the refining-fire work of divorce that God uses to turn the hearts of the defilers (potentially) back to him?  I used (potentially) because God simply invites, he doesn't beg.  He loves us enough to give us freedom to choose and when we (on our knees) choose to come back to his supernatural offer (that goes beyond his protective laws), he accepts.  But if we defile that relationship, his purity, his just-ness, his authority puts us right back in the wayward prodigal son's pig slop trough once more. 

SoT

[WearyHusband]

Beautiful and comforting reflections and observations, Mary.

[Mary]

SoT wrote, "He loves us enough to give us freedom to choose and when we (on our knees) choose to come back to his supernatural offer (that goes beyond his protective laws), he accepts. "

I have no words.

But a song.
Close to Thee
https://hymnary.org/text/thou_my_everlasting_portion

1 Thou, my everlasting portion,
More than friend or life to me;
All along my pilgrim journey,
Savior, let me walk with Thee.
Refrain:
Close to Thee, Close to Thee,
Close to Thee, Close to Thee;
All along my pilgrim journey,
Savior, let me walk with Thee.

[SonofThunder]

SoT wrote, "He loves us enough to give us freedom to choose and when we (on our knees) choose to come back to his supernatural offer (that goes beyond his protective laws), he accepts. "

I have no words.

But a song.
Close to Thee
https://hymnary.org/text/thou_my_everlasting_portion

1 Thou, my everlasting portion,
More than friend or life to me;
All along my pilgrim journey,
Savior, let me walk with Thee.
Refrain:
Close to Thee, Close to Thee,
Close to Thee, Close to Thee;
All along my pilgrim journey,
Savior, let me walk with Thee.

Mary, that is a beautiful song. Thank you for sharing. 😊

SoT

[SonofThunder]

A legitimate question I am wrestling with is, "At what point do my wife's choices and behaviors warrant a violation of the marriage covenant?" In other words, I wonder if she has actually already left the marriage, though she refuses to pursue divorce. if I choose to pursue a divorce is that's merely recognizing what has already happened and moving on with my life? My wife refuses sexual contact or physical affection (though she says she hopes for that in the future), regularly dissociates/forgets abusive behavior, innumerable examples of PD dynamics. She refuses to get a psychiatric evaluation or go to a third party marriage therapist together.

I've also wrestled with the "in sickness and in health" vow, thinking if my wife had a disease, I wouldn't leave for that reason. But then I begin to think that this is just false-guilt and self-blame that have typified our marriage. I settle back on the realization that it may be that she's actually already left the marriage by virtue of her repeated, unrepentant actions, and if I pursue divorce this may simply be moving on to her already being gone. I don't think there's a clear Biblical answer.

I'd also point out that it may be worth looking at the context of Jesus' teaching about divorce - he was addressing a patriarchal culture and a group of men who most likely viewed marriage flippantly, not as a life-long covenant with their wife, which gave men the upper hand in casually dismissing their wives and leaving them to a second-tier status and often unable to support themselves financially unless they shacked up with another man.

Weary,

The three paragraphs you wrote (above) are basically what we have been discussing, so I invite you to jump in further in objective, non-judgmental, Bible study fashion.  My thread title is emotional abuse and separation/divorce.  I worded it that way because I believe that very few here and outside Out of the FOG would question physical abuse as a reason for separation/divorce.   

Imo, emotional abuse is everything else we experience with PD's: situational manipulation, attempts at control, sexual abuse (refusal/1-sided), financial abuse, sleep deprivation, time manipulation, silent treatment, verbal rage, love-bombing (goal oriented affection), gaslighting and so on. 

With regard to what you wrote:  " A legitimate question I am wrestling with is, "At what point do my wife's choices and behaviors warrant a violation of the marriage covenant?" In other words, I wonder if she has actually already left the marriage, though she refuses to pursue divorce."

Questions I suggest for Biblical discussion on your statement are:

1. Is the covenant legitimate, in Gods eyes, when a PD love-bombs (emotional abuse) a person into a marriage contract (legal) to satisfy the self-centered needs of the PD by acquiring a contractual target (spouse)?   

2. One of the deepest, hallmark traits of a PD is 'Fear of Abandonment' (FOB). It is such a broad governor of the actions and reactions of a PD.  So for example, your "...she refuses to pursue divorce" may actually be governed by that deeply seated trait.  It is also (my actual experience), what drives the very deep discard portion of the IDD cycle (idealize, devalue, discard), as the PD refuses to attach themselves to reasons why the relationship is failing, therefore the target and target-caused situations are to blame for their complete detachment, yet will not exit, (except if they have already found a replacement target to eliminate the 'abandonment').  So therefore, if your PDw has mentally left the marriage, is FOB keeping her from actually divorcing and/or is she deeply in the discard phase, either to try and get you to turn and repeat the cycle, or allow her 'cover' to covertly find supply elsewhere to sooth her FOB. 

I personally believe high-testosterone driven narcissistic pride (NPD or BPD male) will cause some males to abruptly and openly walk out on their spouse, but they quickly find a replacement female target.  On the other hand, I believe females and lower testosterone males are more likely to covertly fill the FOB need with secret affairs and extreme love-bombing in order to get the target to repeat the cycle, avoiding abandonment or minimizing FOB. 

3. Jesus/God's teaching on divorce.  I agree with what you wrote and Jesus was dealing with flippant men in a patriarchal culture.  I personally don't believe they desired an answer, but desired an answer from Jesus that would give them the fuel they needed to trap him/try him in Jewish religious law.  Other times they did the same with Roman law.  Both of which, their hearts desire is to eliminate him, in order to retain their control and power. 

Although, we are able to glean from Jesus' response, and tie it to Deuteronomy and to Genesis.  Interesting that Jesus also used Deuteronomy as well to rebuke Satan in the three manipulative testings that Satan attempted with him.   See my previous comments regarding the different laws in Deuteronomy regarding reasons to 'put out' a wife and/or divorce.  I'm focusing on the term in Deuteronomy 24 "found some indecency in her...", since Deuteronomy 22 was discussing her hiding her prior sexual misconduct.  I take it that 'indecency' is not discussing sexual misconduct (infidelity) because infidelity is clearly addressed with relation to divorce and remarriage.   

Again, all of this above is already a part of the current discussion, so please jump right in if you desire, with objective and respectful discussion. 

SoT

[SonofThunder]

Weary, you wrote: "I've also wrestled with the "in sickness and in health" vow, thinking if my wife had a disease, I wouldn't leave for that reason. But then I begin to think that this is just false-guilt and self-blame that have typified our marriage."

I have also wrestled in the past with that thought.  But, I do not any longer because of my identifying the concentric circles of relationships with my uPDw.  I am circle 1.  My kids are circle 2.  Circles 3-5 are progressively outer circles and most people in 3-5 (from her siblings/other family members to friends, acquaintances and neighbors) do not experience PD behaviors. I have accepted that my uPDw is in full control of her behaviors.  Therefore, although PD's can be a clinical diagnosis and they exist mainly because of underdevelopment, the self-control imo, invalidates the covenant for me, regarding that phrase and PD's. 

Since this is a religious part of the forum, I then ask if God gives us an example of the same thing.  Is 'sin' a sickness we humans can't control?  Only God can heal it; we can only attempt to reduce its frequency and affect on others (self-control), yet as Mary pointed out, God 'divorces' the covenant because of sin. 

He also, (in my opinion added in previous posts), supernaturally offers restoration of the covenant if the sinner TRULY repents and returns to the covenant.  We know that these sinners he divorced, cannot rid themselves of sin, but they can self-control focus on God and lean on him for keeping the covenant (tough work!) in that offer. I use 'supernatural' because Mosaic law (God used Moses as the law-giver) did not require a re-marriage option for spouse repentance, but he, in his power is able to see the future and see his will to completion.  We, as humans can only control ourselves, not any other human, nor time, nor the future as only God can do. 

Also, I'm of the opinion that Jesus healed multiple thousands, but he did not heal all "in sickness and health". ailments in everyone, for whatever reason is his choice.  His salvation covenant only pertains to accepting his free and complete work on the cross, no matter what physical or mental ailment we possess.  It's the sickness of sin that defiles the marriage covenant with Christ from the beginning , yet even as sinners, we can trust his supernatural ability to heal us from that ailment, upon our death, through resurrection and focus on him, even in the midst of our sinless condition as earth-dwellers. 

So Weary, if you divorced your uPDw for sinful covenant abandonment and in the future, she went through successful dialectical behavioral therapy (rare but not unfounded PD treatment) and was truly able to demonstrate her full control of the disorder, over a time of testing (ok to do, as Joseph did with his brothers before re-accepting/trusting), would you re-marry her?

SoT

[tragedy or hope]

I have been thinking a lot about this subject. Not because my mind is not made up, but the responsibility of giving someone else an impression displeasing to God and inadvertently, creating suffering and sin in someone else's life.

Scripture tells us to let every man be convinced in his Own heart of the hope that is in him. It really doesn't matter what other people say.

I do not want to grieve my Lord. Scripture tells us that where there are many words, sin follows, but when we guard our lips we are wise.

Too much analysis on the topic disrupts the purity of truth. If I go to any version of the bible where the interpretation, (by men other than KJV) or word changes fit my thoughts... who's really in charge of my life?

IF God is who He says He is, if he is Sovereign, if He is omniscient, (knowing all things)
If the church is a picture of His sacrificial love for the church... If he says he hates divorce, does He no longer mean it? Does He really say...."except if you are not happy, except if you cannot tolerate someone else's sin. except if the other person is not capable of giving what YOU define as love. except if you are not getting from the other person what you think you deserve, except if what they say and do causes you pain add nauseum.

A caveate is physical abuse because even the Apostles were given instruction to carry swords for protection. Christ died to save sinners, I do not need to give my life.

That being said we live in the Century of Self. IMO this has affected the church at large. Do your homework on the fathers of psychology, and you may change your mind regarding their wisdom.

The DMSIIIR (there may be a IV) is a diagnostic tool written by people mostly unredeemed.

Is there a problem among believers to accept the simple commands of God to focus on Him rather than our circumstances and how to get out of them? God does Not contradict Himself and is not wishy washy. He holds the same standard for everyone, He HAS a standard. One right answer. Is He hiding it from us? I think not... because He is not cruel.

[Boat Babe]

I have been reading this but have held back as not a Christian but was raised as a Catholic, so know what you are all talking about

It saddens me that people are staying in abusive relationships because they think that's what their God has said. I see people here twisting themselves into knots because this scripture kinda contradicts that one.  If you're gonna get deep down and fundamental, let's go back to stoning adulterers. But then Jesus stepped didn't he?

I personally think that if there is a God, she/he is more likely to be upset by the barbarity we see in human affairs and not by a person fleeing for their life.

I would also be interested in the perspectives from other religions traditions

[SonofThunder]

tragedy or hope and Boat Babe,  thank you for your valuable opinions and input on the thread.  I personally enjoy the detailed analysis of scripture and it's application of truth in everyday living.  I believe that deep analysis is healthy for me, and also a part of my growing relationship with Jesus Christ.  Similarly, when my children (both when younger and now that they are adults) engage me in deep conversation about their experiences in life compared to what they were taught prior (confirming or denying), it deepens our relationship and is a joy in my father-fellowship with them.  I personally believe God enjoys similar, when in the freedom of love, I openly and thoroughly discuss the details of the books I believe he wrote for me to read.   

In fact, I do the same thing with personality disorders, learning as much as I can and applying it to living.  Just as the very knowledgeable and good people here on Out of the FOG have published the truth about PD's on the Personality Disorders and Toolbox tabs for my gleaning and application, my fellow Out of the FOG members input on the forum, as well as the content in the numerous books I have read and am currently reading, I pour over the content, analyze it and apply to my life.  I am better and healthier for doing so. 

I also believe that those who choose to cling deeply to God and trusting faith, and what has been written in the text (to each his own on religious freedoms in choice), find comfort in doing so, regardless of what choices that decision results at home (stay or leave) with a PD.   For me personally , Jesus is my cornerstone, which is the foundation for everything of me that rests upon it.  If I remove my foundation, I believe my entire life structure that rests upon it's strong support, will collapse around me, therefore my foundation is the most important portion of my life's structure; and everything built upon it can be enjoyed in freedom or altered for improvement. 

I look at life and faith like taking a cruise. For those who embark on that journey, we as passengers are unable to alter the course of the ship and its captains design and will for the vessel.  We have ship rules that were pre-designed to both protect us but also allow us maximum freedom within the bounds of the rules, so therefore the truth of the rules are good in their nature.  If we choose to go against the rules of the ship, we will find ourselves facing the Captain and or assigned crew members and possibly removed from the ship, and therefore the loss of fellowship with fellow travelers, the captain and crew and the joy of the itinerary. 

But, within the rules of the ship, the ship owners have created a world of awesome experiences and we passengers get to choose which activities to partake on the ship, as well as excursions, based on our individual interests.  We can freely choose to operate ourselves within the bounds of the protective ship policies and enjoy our time on the cruise.  Meanwhile the Captain and crew is hard at work behind the scenes, making sure the ship, it's schedule and it's direction stay right on course, docking in every port pre-designed in advance, feeding us along the way, and landing us right back home at the end. 

I choose to enjoy my cruise with Christ and fellowship with the Captain, crew, fellow passengers and opportunities in adventure along the way.  I also find joy in studying the ship as the protective and transportive foundation of my journey and try and know the ship rules as best possible, to allow my maximum joy and freedom.  I also respect the choices of all my fellow humans, as some may choose a different ship/different journey than me, and to that I say 'Bon Voyage'. 

Again, thanks for your input on this thread about emotional abuse and separation/divorce in the religious section of Out of the FOG to allow the topic in comparison to religious teachings and opinions regarding. 

SoT

[1footouttadefog]

A married person is forbidden from denying the other sexual intamacy.

A marriage is about sex.  You can morally enjoy friendship, and even physical closeness with friends over a meal. Think about John reclined against his friend Jesus at a meal.

One does not have to be married to have a roommate, confidant, coworker, or friend.  Marriage is about sex. If you are being denied sex you are being denied a full marriage.

[JustKeepTrying]

I want to caution people who say to deny sex is to deny a full marriage.  That blanket statement I find a trigger.

I was raped in college and at times in my marriage to my OCPDxh I had difficulty with sex.  Granted sex with my ex was not fulfilling and 99% wham bam thank you mam but there were times I wasn't up for it - and he was.

Yes this is a difficult thing to talk about but it is a critical part of any marriage.

A blanket denial - for years at a time indicates there are deeper psychological problems with the individual.  And then it borders on not being a marriage.

But the blanket statement that sex shouldn't be denied also ignores a person's autonomy. 

[xredshoesx]

1foot i'm gonna need some clarification here- are you advocating for marital rape?  i only ask because i was rasied fundie FWIW and brought up in the school of thought that the wife (daughter, granddaughter) is the property of the husband and he can do with her what he wishes as he is the head of the household.

A married person is forbidden from denying the other sexual intamacy.

A marriage is about sex.  You can morally enjoy friendship, and even physical closeness with friends over a meal. Think about John reclined against his friend Jesus at a meal.

One does not have to be married to have a roommate, confidant, coworker, or friend.  Marriage is about sex. If you are being denied sex you are being denied a full marriage.

for the rest of the participants i'd be interested in seeing what scripture says about the man who commits adultery.  all these defiled women were sleeping with MEN but there never seems to be a consequence. 

[SonofThunder]

1foot i'm gonna need some clarification here- are you advocating for marital rape?  i only ask because i was rasied fundie FWIW and brought up in the school of thought that the wife (daughter, granddaughter) is the property of the husband and he can do with her what he wishes as he is the head of the household.

A married person is forbidden from denying the other sexual intamacy.

A marriage is about sex.  You can morally enjoy friendship, and even physical closeness with friends over a meal. Think about John reclined against his friend Jesus at a meal.

One does not have to be married to have a roommate, confidant, coworker, or friend.  Marriage is about sex. If you are being denied sex you are being denied a full marriage.

for the rest of the participants i'd be interested in seeing what scripture says about the man who commits adultery.  all these defiled women were sleeping with MEN but there never seems to be a consequence.

Hello xredshoesx,

I'm hoping we can keep this religious forum stroll on the path of the original thread on emotional abuse and separation/divorce, and not deviate too much down the path of 1foot's blanket sex statement. 

JKT, I'm very sorry to read of your past and agree with your comments made.  I'm guessing that 1foot is making that blanket statement because of:

1Corinthians 7:4-6 (New American Standard Bible)
4 The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does; and likewise the husband also does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. 5 Stop depriving one another, except by agreement for a time so that you may devote yourselves to prayer, and come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. 6 But this I say by way of concession, not of command.

Although I believe 1foot's blanket statement may need brief clarity from 1foot, I'm again hoping we can all stay on the path of the thread.

xred, you wrote " for the rest of the participants i'd be interested in seeing what scripture says about the man who commits adultery.  all these defiled women were sleeping with MEN but there never seems to be a consequence. "

Since I past referenced Mosaic law in Deuteronomy and then Jesus also referencing Mosaic law to the Pharisees in Matthew 19, I am providing a few Old Testament verses to hopefully satisfy your interests regarding men and adultery.  I'm also including many other Biblical verses that mention the word/reference/analogy to 'adultery' for your own investigation.   

Exodus 20:14
"You shall not commit adultery.

Leviticus 20:10
'If there is a man who commits adultery with another man's wife, one who commits adultery with his friend's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.

Proverbs 6:32
One who commits adultery with a woman is lacking sense; He who would destroy himself commits it.

Numbers 5:11, Deuteronomy 5:18, Jeremiah 3:9, Jeremiah 5:7, Jeremiah 7:9
Jeremiah 23:14, Jeremiah 29:23, Ezekiel 16:38, Ezekiel 23:37, Ezekiel 23:43, Hosea 2:2, Hosea 3:1, Hosea 4:2, Hosea 4:13, Hosea 4:14, Matthew 5:27, Matthew 5:28,
Matthew 5:32, Matthew 15:19, Matthew 19:9, Matthew 19:18, Mark 7:21

I do believe that manipulative, prolonged denial of sexual relations in marriage is emotional abuse and as many prolonged emotional abuses, may result in a physical effect (therefore physical abuse) as well, such as my own (mentioned already) with prostate infections.  Therefore, in relation to this thread, I believe that prolonged sexual denials (manipulation) (control) are a part of the conversation and an abandonment of the marriage covenant.

SoT

[SonofThunder]

Clarity of my use of Bible translations:

I continue to reference the NASB in my Bible verse quotes.  I don't know enough about other religions (this is a general 'religious' part of the forum) to comment on the thread subject regarding other religions, but people here who do are surely welcome to provide quotes from other religious resources.

There has been a negative comment here regarding detailed Bible study and to that, I say "to each his own" and hopefully we can all respect each other's adult choices.  There is as well, probably also a mix of protestant and Catholic faiths represented, which is great. I will continue to post Bible verse references from the NASB and also KJV for those that prefer the KJV.  I believe the NASB has been determined by reputable sources to be a very readable literal translation and therefore is a personal favorite for my study. 

Bible Translations (copy/paste from Cambridge University website)

King James Version

The King James Version is the world's most widely known Bible translation, using early seventeenth-century English. Its powerful, majestic style has made it a literary classic, with many of its phrases and expressions embedded in our language. Earlier generations were 'brought up' with this translation and learnt many of its verses by heart.

New American Standard Bible

The New American Standard Bible is a literal translation from the original texts, well suited to study because of its accurate rendering of the source texts. It follows the style of the King James Version but uses modern English for words that have fallen out of use or changed their meanings. It uses capital letters for pronouns relating to divinity, eg 'there He sat down with His disciples'.

SoT

[moglow]

Moderation note -
Even though this discussion is primarily biblically based, we need to remember where we are, our guidelines and our audience herein. 

Quoting chapter and verse, citing references are to be expected and encouraged for further reading and study. However blanket generalizations, posts advocating/supporting violence or retaliation are still subject to moderator review and possible removal.