Marriage-ending Pillow (stuck in FOG, spouse wants NC)

Started by foggygent, July 17, 2021, 02:55:44 PM

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foggygent

Okay I am responsible not the pillow... but my marriage is genuinely in major distress and I am struggling with what to do. Prior to getting serious with my now-wife, I would've described my family as pretty normal. My father isn't really the emotionally-connected type, but is very proud and we connect (more so than my mother and I) over common interests/passions. My mother has always been quirky, likes to be the center of attention, loud and inappropriate, you get the drill. Growing up she was the "cool mom", and my friends would love to go out to dinner when she was in town, have a few drinks, and have a good time.

My now-wife's experience was quite different, especially with my mom. There has been a never-ending list of inappropriate statements/actions, such as calling my wife a "bitch" over dinner, which didn't even faze me (growing up she called my sister a "whore" all the time in a playful manner), saying she's glad she is on BC because she doesn't like babies, back-handed compliments about our home, weird sexual (towards me) comments/actions, etc... The biggest issue is that I hadn't stood up for her, and just brushed things off as "that is just how she is, it means she likes you and is comfortable around you". I continued to pressure her to have dinner when my mother was in town, or stay in their home when we visited. We'd have conflicts, I would apologize and say it won't happen again, then we'd fall into the same pattern. I never put in much work, she always researched/grew.

She discovered info on covert-narcissists and it just clicked... that was my mother to the T. She hoped my understanding that this is how she is, and it isn't going to change, would help, and for a time maybe it did. Well that is what I told myself, but in reality it was just that we moved 2000 miles away, eloped, and then a global pandemic avoided any visits for quite some time. While things seemed to be getting stable, I had a major regression when I forwarded an e-mail with info/pics about our recent honeymoon that my wife sent my grandparents (they have a wonderful relationship) to my parents behind her back, purely out of a sense of guilt of my parents not getting that same attention/information (even though they really didn't deserve it based on the many past actions). This caused a major stir-up, with my wife all but telling me to pick between her or them, and pushing me to take space which eventually became her suggesting full no-contact (something I later told my wife I resented). I started therapy, and have been in it with mixed results since late last year.

With time things began to improve. She suggested I reach out to reconnect with them (with significant boundaries still), was open to visiting them in the future, etc... We had our hiccups but it felt like we were reaching a new equilibrium where she was trusting that I would keep her safe, but that we wouldn't have to cut them out of our lives. This felt fantastic as it was something holding us back, causing me to have fear of having children, etc... Then the box arrived. I was at work and my wife texted to let me know she'd received a box for us from my mother (after limited communication between me and her, and none with my wife since last year). It was a nice handwritten housewarming card, and a single gift... a pillow stating "embrace the dog hair, it's everywhere". She said it was incredibly rude and that she was very upset, and asked how I felt. I told her I understood why she felt that way, but that it didn't seem like that big of a deal to me. I told her not to worry about what my mom thinks, we rule our kingdom... I wish I had supported her feelings more. Later in person we talked it out but it just fell apart into a huge fight with many nasty words in both directions.

Again I missed an opportunity to just express to her that it confuses me that I don't see what she and others in her circle see as clearly, but that her feelings are real and justified and it is okay that she feel them. Instead I ended up accusing her of having a negative filter; this is something my therapist has said, of which I always stand up for her and say "no no, if you knew the full extent you'd understand why she feels this way", although it does get to me sometimes. No matter what, I always feel she sees the negative in something, such as when we got "only" a card for our anniversary, no gift, she said that in itself was a diss as they typically send tons of small things (of which my mom has for free from work)... Similar story with this gift now, she says the fact it was sent with nothing else makes it clear what the intent was (to call our home dirty), of which I just can't see the level of malice she sees. I digress, but feel it is helpful to see why I get so defensive when she see's the worst in their actions and can't let things just go, even when it requires some storytelling (isn't backed directly by the facts/situation).

So here we are. She now has reverted back to saying she wants nothing to do with my family, including not wanting any future children we would have to see them at all, and that she thinks the fact that I would want that is a sign I don't get it. She says it is okay if I want a relationship with them, but what does that really mean at that point... The word divorce has been tossed out several times by her (not the 1st time), and I am at a loss as I truly have been doing my best, but admittedly when shit hits the fan my response and feelings tend to revert, I am not there for her as I should be, and I often play the victim (all things my mother does). What hurts me the most is I know this is all due to my actions in response to my parent's, and not due to them directly. She is taking my inability to keep her safe into her own hands.

I just wish there was a reset-button and we could try again, but I know I don't deserve that. Anyways, I am at a loss as I feel like on one hand I can trust her solely, and for the most part cut out my family and focus on what makes me happy with my own. I can see the laundry-list of things they've done to hurt us/her and how they don't deserve anything for that. On the other hand I can't get over the feeling that this is an overreaction, that she should just go with the flow, which is how I handle my problems (minimize things), and that she is just asking me to dispose of my family and all the dreams of sharing my future family and happiness with them and my extended family.

Clearly I am stuck in the FOG. How have others managed to come to terms with the reality of who their family is so that you can have clarity when things like this occur?

moglow

Here's a litmus test or two for you to ponder - what's the overall reaction when your mother says those things? IS it funny/playful or is it the insult it seems, couched as humor when a less than optimal response is received? What does your mother do after - apologize for having clearly caused offense or shoulder toss of "she's too sensitive"? Or is she oblivious to time and place, appropriateness in general? There are differences.

If you find yourself having to explain or excuse your mother but can't/won't take it up with her directly, honestly it's a problem. I get she may be all defensive and angry but damn. I wouldn't want my mother in law calling me a bitch or disparaging my housekeeping either!

Have you talked to your sister about it, the way mother treats your wife? Was being called a whore (and possibly other names) "playful" to her? What's their relationship like? Did your mother treat her/others badly all these years and y'all have excused it with "that's how she is"? That may be how she is, but if no one ever dared call her on it, she never learned and doesn't care how offensive it is. It's the behavior of a bully.

I say this because in some ways that's my mother you describe. She didn't do/say those things to others so much as talk smack behind their backs. She made it clear how she felt, both to us and others, sometimes without a word.

This bothers me "The biggest issue is that I hadn't stood up for her, and just brushed things off as "that is just how she is, it means she likes you and is comfortable around you". Your mother is confortable insulting people. She thinks it's funny and playful. Not everyone will be willing to excuse that b.s, go along to get along. I'd sure have a big problem with it and wouldn't want to be around it.

Just thoughts from someone who's been there done that.
"She had not known the weight until she felt the freedom." ~Nathaniel Hawthorne, The Scarlet Letter
"Expectations are disappointments under construction." ~Capn Spanky, The Nook circa 2005ish

foggygent

Quote from: moglow on July 17, 2021, 04:05:00 PM


This bothers me "The biggest issue is that I hadn't stood up for her, and just brushed things off as "that is just how she is, it means she likes you and is comfortable around you". Your mother is confortable insulting people. She thinks it's funny and playful. Not everyone will be willing to excuse that b.s, go along to get along. I'd sure have a big problem with it and wouldn't want to be around it.

Just thoughts from someone who's been there done that.

Thanks for your thoughts. My sister is part of the problem and takes my mothers side, and thinks my wife is mean (they used to get along, think my mom got to her) so no point in talking to her, we are estranged now anyways.

Regardless of how my mom means it, the fact is it hurts my wife, and I have just struggled so much to emphasize with her and give her 100% support. I think (hope?) it is due to being exposed to this my entire life, so I am desensitized, perhaps because that is how I coped with it all my life. Or perhaps just the lack of emotional support has stunted my emotional capability. Whatever it is, I am just struggling to figure out how to change once and for all.

I stopped seeing my 1st therapist because she seemed too "basic", was blaming things on regular marital communication type issues, which this is far more of (there is more than just what happened with my mother, there was also a some lying and inability to take responsibility for something unrelated early in the relationship, which was also heavily driven by my empathy issues and inability to see the hurt I had caused). The 2nd therapist I am seeing now seems to understand and recall things much better, but still seems quick to support my initial feelings and say that cutting my family out would just cause resentment and isn't the right approach (even though he is onboard with cutting other toxic friends out).

moglow

You may be desensitized to what your mother is doing /saying, but that still doesn't make it okay. I'm guessing right about now your wife is thinking, if that woman will treat me this way and did her own kids this way, grandchildren will likely know no different either. OR mommie dearest will play divide and conquer and get between me and my own children, insist on "her rights" to my children.

You've got some decisions to make here. If you can't relate or find empathy with your wife, how do you go forward?

It's not easy standing up to a bully, worse when it's a lifetime habit of ignoring it. Also not easy finding the courage to take a hard look at your own behavior and changing what you don't like.

It's not the pillow. That may just have been your wife's last straw, that one side smack too many. Could be her own mother treated her much the same and she swore never again. And you know what, she doesn't have to. Neither do you.
"She had not known the weight until she felt the freedom." ~Nathaniel Hawthorne, The Scarlet Letter
"Expectations are disappointments under construction." ~Capn Spanky, The Nook circa 2005ish

bloomie

foggygent - you remind me a lot of my own DH and your mother/sister duo my own mil/sil duo.

One of the BIGGEST differences between myself and my DH is that when I married I knew my family of origin (FOO) was high conflict and had a lot of toxic patterns of relating and behavior. Much of which - even though I was quite young, I had already confronted. I knew my mother's behaviors were waaaaay off and I never wanted to live they she and my father did.

My DH, on the other hand had been swimming around in a family fish tank where the water had become murkier and more and more unhealthy and he couldn't see it because he was used to it.

The 'intentions' or 'I didn't mean it that way' is a escape hatch these women use when their passive aggressive, outright aggressive, divisive, demeaning, envious and competitive words and behaviors that cause disconnection and pain. 

When they are confronted they are never at fault 'they have never intentionally hurt another person in their lives.." "sometimes their mouth gets away with them..." "that is just the way they have always been..."

Cue a wide eyed, stupefied look of faux innocence. These two women are awfully nice and terribly sweet kind of jab you in the back covertly aggressive, malevolent types and hard for a man to spot because they treat men very differently than women.

Here's my reality and truth around this... we teach our family of origin how to treat our spouse. We teach them what our priorities are and who comes first. We teach them what we will tolerate toward ourselves and our beloved partners in life.

When we allow disrespect like this - with your mother (and sister)  speaking to and about your wife in a way that anyone would find offensive - and yet the only problem person identified is the one who doesn't go along with it and who is being disrespected.... that is communicating a whole lot that is detrimental to the bond of trust in your marriage.

Your wife is standing on the outside of that yucky, mucky fish tank and seeing how unhealthy the status quo sounds like it is and rightly saying..."no thanks".

Your ally, your bestie, your life partner, your beloved IS your priority. Your marriage to someone who is not going to go along to get along and is not willing to subject themselves and their innocent children they may someday have to this kind of behavior is a gift. Your wife IS your family. And she seems to want better for you both.

I don't know if my own DH would've still be swimming around in that muck all these years later if I had not said this is no way to live and I am not participating in all of the toxic stuff that goes on in your family of origin. He is now grateful to have, with much therapy and good support,  broken free from most of it and our marriage has survived.

The most powerful people are peaceful people.

The truth will set you free if you believe it.

foggygent

Quote from: Bloomie on July 17, 2021, 05:57:25 PM
foggygent - you remind me a lot of my own DH and your mother/sister duo my own mil/sil duo.

One of the BIGGEST differences between myself and my DH is that when I married I knew my family of origin (FOO) was high conflict and had a lot of toxic patterns of relating and behavior. Much of which - even though I was quite young, I had already confronted. I knew my mother's behaviors were waaaaay off and I never wanted to live they she and my father did.

My DH, on the other hand had been swimming around in a family fish tank where the water had become murkier and more and more unhealthy and he couldn't see it because he was used to it.

Thank you Bloomie, this does sound quite similar. My DW also had the benefit of having already awakened a bit to the reality of her FOO (in her case though it was more them not giving her the same attention and love as other siblings, and only caring about themselves) so it was easier for her to see.

Was your husband just able to get right with it? I still struggle to see it as all bad... but I suppose that doesn't matter, it can be bad enough. It gets particularly difficult when some of my extended family gets involved as they are much more reasonable/supportive, but have pushed the "it's family" line and shared their own experiences with in-laws and how they perceived in building a relationship with them.

I don't deal with conflict well, and have even said things in therapy or to my wife like "if they just weren't here, I don't think I would miss them"... it is just the conflict of knowing that I am hurting them, or having others say things about our relationship. When we were briefly NC for example we bought a new home, and I felt immense guilt for not telling my grandparents and other supportive family members about it because I wasn't also able to tell my parents without feeling guilty that they'd find out 3rd party.


notrightinthehead

While being called names is offensive,  I can't see the offensiveness of the pillow. But  I might be rather thick. Playing the devil's advocate here,  I was wondering,  it seems you have grown up in a family where boundaries were violated regularly.  You might have developed no healthy boundaries for yourself.  Now you have a wife who is setting boundaries for you.  These might or might not be the boundaries that you want, but you might not have had time, opportunity, or the will to develop your own boundaries. Maybe before your mother set the rules and now your wife sets the rules.  Maybe you live with fear, obligation, and guilt in both your families,  your family of origin and your chosen one.  If that were the case,  have you looked at your own behaviour and considered the possibility that you might have some Co-Dependency issues?
I can't hate my way into loving myself.

Amadahy

Foggy,
If you love your wife and want to preserve your marriage, you need to see that your mum/family of origin is toxic and dangerous to your marriage and to your own mental health.  I'd give anything to have seen this about my mother/family 32 years ago. Fortunately, my DH is patient and understanding and we've muddled through, but my trying hard to appease the unappeasable has completely wrecked me and caused us unnecessary stress and difficulty. I'm sorry. I'm being blunt because I've been where you are and it is excruciatingly difficult. This website is a treasure trove of information and compassion and there are youtube channels that can help inform, such as Dr. Ramani, Les Carter, Lisa Romano, Patrick Teahan and others. Your wife is not too sensitive; this is a favorite response from personality-disordered folks who do not want to take responsibility for their unacceptable behaviors. Best wishes to you -- you deserve a life free of abuse.
Ring the bells that still can ring;
Forget your perfect offering.
There's a crack in everything ~~
That's how the Light gets in!

~~ Leonard Cohen

TwentyTwenty

Calling anyone a degrading name is a sickness.

It is not funny at all, ever.

Never cute, never funny, never playful.

It is a sickness, intentional, intended to mark a target for even further abuse.

If you want to protect your family, then I suggest you come to terms with what you've allowed - the sickness that is shredding it now - is damaging to your family.

Here is a test. One of them is wrong, either your mom or your wife.

My opinion, if I were in the same position, I would clearly explain to the one that I thought was 'wrong' that they are indeed wrong. Then I'd support the other 100%.

Personally if I were your wife I'd leave, to protect my mental and physical well being. Spouses aren't worth being offered up for further abuse.

Your wife should have gotten up from wherever she was and left immediately upon being called a degrading name, with or without you.

bloomie

Quote from: foggygentWas your husband just able to get right with it? I still struggle to see it as all bad... but I suppose that doesn't matter, it can be bad enough. It gets particularly difficult when some of my extended family gets involved as they are much more reasonable/supportive, but have pushed the "it's family" line and shared their own experiences with in-laws and how they perceived in building a relationship with them.

Good question. No, he was not able to just get right with it. He needed to unpack a lot and work hard on his side of the street with a therapist, many good books and articles, recovery work, a group of good men he trusts, and coming to the place where he recognized harmful and divisive behaviors for himself and finding healthy response to them.

In our case, the behaviors and people were not all bad or all good. That is what makes this hard. They are people who have developed certain ways of doing family that are toxic and harmful to us and who do not tolerate or respect boundaries and others disagreeing with them.

Simply put, they refuse to manage or take responsibility for their behaviors that hurt others. They continue in them. And one of our wise founding members says it best..."Someone can treat you great 90% of the time and terribly 10% of the time you and feel bad 100% of the time." Make sense?

Your wife finds your mother unsafe. You have witnessed your mother's disrespect. Maybe the pillow was a joke that fell flat or your mother is not a good gift giver or maybe, in the context of the hostile atmosphere your mother's choices have created and the message with the pillow obscure, your wife's conclusion that it was offensive in intent makes sense?

Learning to find a way forward together that honors the process for both of you and respects that you will not always see things the same way, but can agree that you need to to figure out how to do what is best and right for your family first and foremost (the two of you!) may be a good starting gate position to take as you begin to rebuild trust.

Learning about enmeshment in family systems was helpful for us and breaking free from the notion that there are no individual consequences for bad behavior when done under the umbrella of "family" was key. We don't have the same level of contact with each family member because we respond to the unique and individual behaviors of each. And that is healthy, and that is what love actually looks like. For ourselves and others.

We have learned to honor and respect the relational reality that when people act in loving and responsible ways we draw nearer to them and when they act in irresponsible and unloving ways we draw away and eventually may even leave the relationship if they choose not to adjust some of their behaviors.

This is hard stuff and my heart goes out to both you and your wife. Wishing you wisdom and good strength as you move forward.
The most powerful people are peaceful people.

The truth will set you free if you believe it.

moglow

Quote from: BloomieThe 'intentions' or 'I didn't mean it that way' is a escape hatch these women use when their passive aggressive, outright aggressive, divisive, demeaning, envious and competitive words and behaviors that cause disconnection and pain. 

When they are confronted they are never at fault 'they have never intentionally hurt another person in their lives.." "sometimes their mouth gets away with them..." "that is just the way they have always been..."

Cue a wide eyed, stupefied look of faux innocence. These two women are awfully nice and terribly sweet kind of jab you in the back covertly aggressive, malevolent types and hard for a man to spot because they treat men very differently than women.

Here's my reality and truth around this... we teach our family of origin how to treat our spouse. We teach them what our priorities are and who comes first. We teach them what we will tolerate toward ourselves and our beloved partners in life.

When we allow disrespect like this - with your mother (and sister)  speaking to and about your wife in a way that anyone would find offensive - and yet the only problem person identified is the one who doesn't go along with it and who is being disrespected.... that is communicating a whole lot that is detrimental to the bond of trust in your marriage.

Your wife is standing on the outside of that yucky, mucky fish tank and seeing how unhealthy the status quo sounds like it is and rightly saying..."no thanks".

Your ally, your bestie, your life partner, your beloved IS your priority. Your marriage to someone who is not going to go along to get along and is not willing to subject themselves and their innocent children they may someday have to this kind of behavior is a gift. Your wife IS your family. And she seems to want better for you both.

Whoa. That's it, right there, what I wish I'd said.

Foggygent, it's not all good/bad, black/white, either/or, and you don't have to choose sides either wife or family. BUT you made a commitment to stand by, love and respect your wife. You *chose* her. We're taught that a man leaves his mother when he chooses his wife - SHE becomes his priority and is his to protect and defend. I dont mean that she then runs roughshod over everyone in his name, but she's deserving of his respect and he needs to step up into that by word and deed. Again, not being a bully himself but joining with her and seeing it through.

Again, think about your mother's pokes and jabs, the name calling and derogatory side comments. ARE they funny or are they as mean spirited as they appear to us here? Either way, someone needs to step up and tell her Enough. It's not funny, she's insulting people in the name of "playful" and it needs to stop. Don't you dare step away under "she's too sensitive" or "can't take a joke." Be firm and make it clear how you *both* feel, and be ready to leave/end a phone call the instant it happens again. If you keep rolling over and letting it go, the lesson is lost. Sure she'll be mad and she won't like being called on it, but she has a chance to change how she treats people.

I think you need to do that, if not for your wife then for yourself. I guarantee your wife isn't the first person who's hit a wall with it.
"She had not known the weight until she felt the freedom." ~Nathaniel Hawthorne, The Scarlet Letter
"Expectations are disappointments under construction." ~Capn Spanky, The Nook circa 2005ish

Leonor

Hi Foggy,

I hear a lot of fog in your post: feeling guilty for not sharing information with your parents, feeling obligated to include your parents in your lives, feeling afraid of how this or that family member might react ... All regarding matters in your adult, personal married lives that, frankly, aren't anyone's business but yours and your wife's.

Your mother is narcissistic, and you know it. Your relationship with your parents is unhealthy, and you know it. Your wife is suffering as a result, and you know it.

But rather than face the uncomfortable truth that you must make a choice between being your mother's son or your wife's husband (a choice forced upon you by your *mother*, by the way), you're projecting the fog onto your spouse:

*She* makes you feel guilty for not standing up for her to your mom; *she* makes you feel obligated to exclude your parents against your wishes; *she* makes you feel afraid that she will abandon you.

That's not fair. Not only is it unfair, it's unworkable: until you deal with *your* stuff, any woman who comes into your life will suffer the same fate. Your mother will undermine your relationship, you will defend your mother, and your partner will understand that you are uncomfortable having an adult, intimate relationship.

You can't play it both ways. You can't keep your mother happy or content or calm enough that she'll "let" you be married, and you can't shower your wife with enough reassurance or understanding that she will feel okay with being abused by your mom.

The relationship you need to work on, if there's any hope of saving your marriage (or any future relationship, if your wife decides to save herself), is the relationship you have with your mother. Check out the work of Dr. Ken Adams, I think he'd be very enlightening for you.

It's hard, I don't mean to imply that it isn't. And it's not your fault. But it is your responsibility, to yourself and to your wife.









DaisyGirl77

Foggygent, you sound like my father.  He grew up with an undiagnosed BPD mother, & his father who was completely unavailable/checked out except physically.  I didn't know his mother was so awful until I spent nearly 4 years with her.  (My story is in my signature if you would like to read it.)  In essence, my time with his mother damaged me severely.  I left with PTSD.  I no longer talk to anyone on his side of the family for a multitude of reasons.  My father is quite lucky that I continue to talk to him at all, considering his behavior in those 4 years I spent with his mother.  I spent 3 nights in a homeless shelter because I was terrified of what she'd do next.

With all due respect, you are sounding like my father.  He ostriched himself for the entire time I was living with his mother.  He demonstrated a character flaw a mile wide.  He damaged the father/daughter covenant that's between all parents & their children beyond measure.  He lived in deep denial that his mother was abusive toward me.  He lived in denial even when I called him multiple times, in tears, so scared & traumatized & stressed out that I was literally causing my nose to bleed.  He kept giving me all kinds of excuses as to why he couldn't/wouldn't/shouldn't step in.  ALL of those excuses were selfish.  They helped ONLY him, not me, his daughter.

I am still quite angry with my father.  It's been 8 years since I walked out of his mother's place for the last time.  He still insists that I should just "get over it" & "move on".  How do I move on when I am still in therapy to process those 4 years of trauma he & his family gave to me?  When I pleaded for him to "do something" & he did...absolutely nothing, except to come by every other weekend for a few hours & play mediator only for it to pick right back up where she left off as soon as he left?

I write all this to give you a snapshot of what your wife might be experiencing.  She sees HER HUSBAND do...nothing.  Absolutely nothing.  She is HURTING deeply because of YOUR mother & you are doing NOTHING.  You're giving her empty platitudes.  You're giving her pretty words but you're not following through.  You are still thinking as son first, not husband first.  Your actions are HURTING YOUR WIFE.

You need to start thinking whether your wife is as important to you as those marriage vows you told her, or whether your mother is more important to you than your wife.  This is the choice that you're facing right now.  If you choose your mother over your wife, your marriage will end.  If you choose your wife, & make sincere efforts to heal the rift in your marriage & repair the bond you had on your wedding day, you need to drop the rope you're holding that tethers you to your mother, recognize that YOUR mother is hurting your wife, & stand up for your wife.  You need to say "no more" & follow through.  No guilt.  Your wife is #1.  She is your family.
I lived with my dad's uPD mom for 3.5 years.  This is my story:  http://www.outofthefog.net/forum/index.php?topic=59780.0  (TW for abuse descriptions.)

"You are not required to set yourself on fire to keep others warm." - Anonymous

NC with uNM since December 2016.  VLC with uPDF.

Call Me Cordelia

Backing up all who say your wife is #1. I think you are clear that's how it's supposed to be, but you just don't see things exactly the way she does.

Ok. My DH has been where you are, and I've been in your wife's spot. He would not understand the obvious passive-aggressive jabs and boundary pushing as such. To me it looked like willful ignorance. The survival mechanism had always been "See No Evil, Assume the Best." It was easier to put the blame on me for having that same "negative filter" you speak of. Exactly like Leonor says so well. So you see? The benefit of the doubt is applied to the abuser, not the person actually hurt by the behavior. The responsibility for the actions of the person you know to be hurtful and selfish. Why does mom get a free pass?

Your wife's well-being should be more important to you. The pillow was hurtful to her? No need to keep it. Same if it had been merely not her style. Donate it or throw it out. It's her home, only things she actually likes deserve a place there. Whatever your mother's actual intent was, who is right or wrong in their interpretation is NOT the theme here. The truth is your wife's feelings are threatening to you, so you do not respond in a husbandly way to her. You are a man divided, and the FOG wins more often than she can bear.

Your wife has been driven to setting harder and harder boundaries. She's tried to be generous in an impossible situation. Now she's given you fair warning of what the consequences of continuing to be loyal to mother are. To put it crassly: Get off the fence, you're crushing your balls.

It can be done. Both Leonor's DH and mine have managed to make the same choice that's before you. We are now happily NC with my IL's, although that was never the goal in itself. Your wife has shown you how to begin. Learn and grow, get some therapy, hang around the forums. Godspeed!

square

Hey. My two cents is this.

If it were your father that was being problematic with your wife, you would have looked inside yourself and known that it wasn't normal for men to act that way.

As a man, your mother is your primary model for women, and likely you have assumed on some level that this is just how women are.

You like her, have learned to roll with her oddities, and she likely makes you feel good on some level - maybe like you're needed in some way, something like that.

She doesn't treat your wife the same way she treats you. She is competing with your wife for your favor and your attention. And that must feel good to you, because it just does. It's an essential part of the division game.

That good feeling is based on sand, though. It will shift and blow away.

doglady

Your M reminds me a number of people: my uPDMIL, who also says bizarre, illogical and hurtful things under the guise of 'just joking'; my enuPDF, who also has a habit of making incomprehensible 'jokes,' which are not funny, and which only we in the FOO ever really understood and would therefore codependently  'translate' for others; and my uPDM, who also talks in martyrish, defensive word salads, and never answers the question you've asked.  :stars:

Yet all three of these people accuse others of being 'too sensitive' when someone calls them out on their behaviour - which unfortunately hardly ever happens because when they are challenged on the unpleasant and illogical things they say, their over the top reactions of bullying anger and extreme emotional dysregulation effectively shut down anyone who has the audacity to question them. So their behaviour never changes. Rinse and repeat. I believe similar is happening with your M, Foggygent. It's a bit like dog training - only not the right kind.  :Monsta:

There are some powerful people in our various FOOs and ILs, who have odd/dysfunctional behaviour that doesn't get challenged, only ever enabled over the decades by the cowards around them. These behaviours therefore continue to be shaped in increasingly strange ways, to the point that their behaviour is normalised within the family and their own strange little friend bubbles. One thing all three of the people I mention also have in common is that they have led pretty sheltered lives, so their behaviour has therefore not the opportunity to bounce off enough 'outsiders' and perhaps be shaped in a more positive direction. When you're in a cult/bubble like this, no one 'inside' sees it as abnormal - or they're too scared to challenge it. But, when outsiders, eg. new DILs or SILs, come on the scene, the strangeness and dysfunction is quite obvious to them. But disordered families invariably cast the newcomers/interlopers as 'the problem' and love to scapegoat them. Like your W, I was the victim of years of disrespect from my uPDMIL, about which she laughed and made fun of me. Unfortunately I was told by my H, 'well that's just the way she is - just don't worry about her.' Yeah, thanks for that. Not that easy.  We have a way to go here. :sadno:

On one level, I believe she really doesn't know how she comes across - as she is very socially unskilled, has had very little education, hardly worked outside the home, and has generally stayed in her own FOO bubble for nearly eight decades. But I would have the utmost respect for her if she would be willing to take on others' opinions of her objectively hurtful behaviours and make some amends. This will never happen, though, as not only does she not have the capacity or any interest in doing so, she is belligerently oppositional to even looking at her behaviour. She goes straight to rage and smearing, openly states that she is 'always right' and does not believe she should ever change. Oh well. Her choice.

My only recourse was to go VLC and then NC with all these people as it was too exhausting, unenjoyable and physically sickening to be around any of them.  :no:

I wholeheartedly agree with all the advice you've been given here, Foggygent. Your M's behaviour does sound objectively bizarre and highly unpleasant, although it has presumably been allowed to bloom unfettered within your FOO. You could tell her. But good luck with that. She probably won't change, in which case you definitely have some decisions to make - IF you want to save your marriage, that is.  :yes:


Fiasco

Quote from: foggygent on July 17, 2021, 05:12:23 PM

Regardless of how my mom means it, the fact is it hurts my wife, and I have just struggled so much to emphasize with her and give her 100% support. I think (hope?) it is due to being exposed to this my entire life, so I am desensitized, perhaps because that is how I coped with it all my life. Or perhaps just the lack of emotional support has stunted my emotional capability. Whatever it is, I am just struggling to figure out how to change once and for all.

Your mom 100 percent meant it the way your wife took it. The first communication in a couple years is a pillow saying your house is hairy? OMG. Not to mention she's called your wife a bitch? So many OMGs.

And yes, of course you are desensitized, and you're exactly right in seeing that as a coping mechanism against abuse. As one formerly emotionally stunted person to another, you can only go up from here. Your first emotion, when you start having them again, is likely to be anger. But I think that's ok too, and I bet a little anger about your moms poor treatment of your wife would go a long way in her eyes. You can take this process a little bit at a time, you can't force yourself to grow and heal like a plant under a spotlight, but make the commitment to your wife, and to yourself, to give it your all.

Call Me Cordelia

#17
Yes, I agree. It was an insult. You and my own DH have a very curious  and infuriating tendency when wearing the foggy goggles to see only the present event, completely divorced from any other context and history with Mom. You yourself write above that there has been a long history of back-handed compliments about your home as well as straight insults for goodness sakes. If your mother had any desire to show respect and fix the relationship whatsoever, she would be treading very carefully right now. This is more of the same pattern and your wife is very rightly done with it.