When they claim not to know what they've done wrong

[Sidney37]

Thank you for posting this.  I keep writing out long responses and deleting them.  I think just writing it out was therapeutic for me.

My parents insist that they don't know what they've done.  They wanted a list that I decided not to give.  They decided my "final straw" insults from my mother were the whole reason I'm NC and they are are telling others how petty I am for going NC over what PDm sees as a helpful suggestion rather than decades of enforced enmeshment and requirements that I do everything her way or am punished or my kids are punished if I don't. 

I think her ego is so fragile that she can't accept that she does anything wrong.  She can't be told no or accept any boundary.  Only full on enmeshment is ok or she cries, acts like a victim and punishes me.  But because the punishment isn't physical, she thinks it's totally ok. 

I did write the letter.  Initially I considered sending it, so I put everything in it that I wanted to say.  It was 10 typed pages long.  I'll never send it.  I know better now.  It will be used to further punish, manipulate, and embarrass me.  But I have that letter to refer back to when I'm headed back into the fog which is where I am today. 

[SeaSalt]

I believe that my N mother thinks she did nothing wrong since she (in her mind) had the right to do anything she wanted. I was an object there to serve. She gave birth to me so she felt entitled to abuse me. She still does not see what is wrong with them because in her mind there is nothing wrong with that. This is why I stopped explaining to her and never will since it makes no sense. To not even mention that she had never ever listen to a word I had to say.

Now that I talk openly about the abuse I endured, she spread lies that I am mentally sick to discredit me. Lucky for me this will be very hard for her to convince anyone of.
This shows me that she knows very well that what she did to me was so bad otherwise she would not be afraid of me exposing her.

She is a pathological lair so she will keep saying her versions of the story and keep trying to gaslight all the ones that were involved for the rest of her life. I am sure of that. Lucky I am out of it.

[Call Me Cordelia]

SeaSalt, I could have written that post. Right down to the smearing my mental health and making up complete and truly vicious lies about me to cover himself. On the one hand, they know very well, as evidenced by the deliberateness of the coverup and deflection of the fault onto us. On the other, dominant hand, they can never ever admit it.

I think not every narcissist is going to be that psychopathic though… the vast majority I think aren’t quite so simultaneously Machiavellian and malicious.

[SeaSalt]

SeaSalt, I could have written that post. Right down to the smearing my mental health and making up complete and truly vicious lies about me to cover himself. On the one hand, they know very well, as evidenced by the deliberateness of the coverup and deflection of the fault onto us. On the other, dominant hand, they can never ever admit it.

I think not every narcissist is going to be that psychopathic though... the vast majority I think aren't quite so simultaneously Machiavellian and malicious.

I agree Cordeila, there is a large palette of N spectrum and of course not all are extreme. It is very important to realize when there are extreme and in those cases really one should almost change its identity and disappear. My mother is one of these. I had to move very far away to feel safe and still I am watching my back. 
regarding N knowing what they do once I read that we just need to listen to them what they blame us for and there is their confession. Those are the moment where they tell everything about them. My mother before my last NC wrote me that I stand by an abuser and that I support abuse which is exactly what she does by keeping her husbands pedophile side.  If I had any doubt before, I would not have after that confession she did. She also wrote me that her husbands only mistake was that he loved me too much. Oh boy I do believe that one. We are still all paying consequences on him "loving me too much". Etc. Its better to not give it too much attention and energy because its mind twisting. I find that finding ways to not think of her is the sweetest victory. How I stopped thinking of her? I made a little mind trick: every time my mind wanted to think about her I was thinking of a friend of mine, lets say, Maria. Each time NM came to my mind, I would call Maria, think of Maria, wonder what Maria is doing so that after few months my mind was automatically starting to think of Maria when I was about to think of Nm. Now I can go 2-3 weeks without thinking of my NM. Absolutely fantastic. 

[Hilltop]

DENIAL is the strongest tool  in the PD armoury.

Isn't that the truth.  Even when something has been done that I have found out about and I have been upset about it, the denial is flabbergasting. There was never any apology for outright lying about me or giving away gifts from others that were meant for me or a direct insult, nope no apology or acknowledgement on their end that their behaviour was unjustified.  There was just denial, that I misunderstood and then blaming where it was turned on me and I was sensitive and depressed.  Its exhausting to deal with.  They cannot and will not admit that their behaviour is wrong on any level.  I am happy to give up on them, its simply too hard to deal with.

[MarlenaEve]

He KNOWS what he's done wrong BUT..here it gets complicated. He doesn't see that your perception of wrong is an objective perception.

There is a very insightful site (issendai.com) where estranged parents come to seek support after their kids go no contact with them.

From all those discussions I've read, it is obvious that, THEY KNOW they have behaved badly BUT, their minds justify this bad behavior to the point where it becomes 'normal', 'acceptable', 'desirable' UNDER certain circumstances.

What's worse about these people is that they compare their abuses (emotional, verbal) to worst types of abuses -physical, sexual, etc. One parent there said it's not like I have beaten her every day and left her without food for days. Or, I gave her food and clothes and took care of her as a child, I was a good parent so I can't understand why she cut me off.

In the mind of a PD, abuse means beating your child for days in a row, leaving a child without food, making a child homeless, killing a child.
Sooo, if they equate abuse to unlawful behavior, it means, in their mind, what they've done to us (narcissistic, borderline abuse) is NOT abuse, it's more like 'doing the best you could' or 'making small mistakes'.

They also have amnesia. If a parent hits the child one day, they forget they hit them the next day OR, they make the abuse in their head as a deserved punishment for disobeying the parent. (PD parents go mental when they're disobeyed, especially by little children).

So, ALL they do is justified. The child deserved it so it must not be abuse then. Real abuse is what you hear on the news/movies and NOT what they do.

I really believe that PD parents, especially narcissists on the malignant side understand an evil or an abusive act BUT they justify as it HAD to happen and it's OK that they've done it.

Pls, don't try to explain to your father again what he's done wrong. It's like talking to a wall. I found that telling what 'they''ve done to a support group or a good friend brings more comfort.

[SeaSalt]

He KNOWS what he's done wrong BUT..here it gets complicated. He doesn't see that your perception of wrong is an objective perception.

There is a very insightful site (issendai.com) where estranged parents come to seek support after their kids go no contact with them.

From all those discussions I've read, it is obvious that, THEY KNOW they have behaved badly BUT, their minds justify this bad behavior to the point where it becomes 'normal', 'acceptable', 'desirable' UNDER certain circumstances.

What's worse about these people is that they compare their abuses (emotional, verbal) to worst types of abuses -physical, sexual, etc. One parent there said it's not like I have beaten her every day and left her without food for days. Or, I gave her food and clothes and took care of her as a child, I was a good parent so I can't understand why she cut me off.

In the mind of a PD, abuse means beating your child for days in a row, leaving a child without food, making a child homeless, killing a child.
Sooo, if they equate abuse to unlawful behavior, it means, in their mind, what they've done to us (narcissistic, borderline abuse) is NOT abuse, it's more like 'doing the best you could' or 'making small mistakes'.

They also have amnesia. If a parent hits the child one day, they forget they hit them the next day OR, they make the abuse in their head as a deserved punishment for disobeying the parent. (PD parents go mental when they're disobeyed, especially by little children).

So, ALL they do is justified. The child deserved it so it must not be abuse then. Real abuse is what you hear on the news/movies and NOT what they do.

I really believe that PD parents, especially narcissists on the malignant side understand an evil or an abusive act BUT they justify as it HAD to happen and it's OK that they've done it.

Pls, don't try to explain to your father again what he's done wrong. It's like talking to a wall. I found that telling what 'they''ve done to a support group or a good friend brings more comfort.

What you wrote Marlena I agree 100%. When I confronted my N mother about her husband sexually harassing me through my childhood, her answer was: common but he did not rape you. So in her mind, if he did not rape me, than everything else is ok and acceptable and I am making a big deal out of nothing. I saw immediately that no words could ever explain to her. I could explain all the consequences I had, how this affected me etc. and it would never mean abuse for her.
The same with her N abuse and neglect. For her if there was always food in the house, means there was never any abuse. In my mothers mind food and physical shelter are the only child's needs. So in her mind she did her job amazingly. She also payed my university for a few years so she is a mother of the Century.

[Sidney37]

I've heard that I should be thankful that my parents aren't physically abusive alcoholics.  My grandfathers both were.   So because my parents weren't and because my mother was enmeshed to the point that she didn't want me to go anywhere without her or live on my own until I was almost 30, this was proof that she loved me.  I should be appreciative of her "help" (constant criticism, insults, and expectation that I do everything and only have the exact same likes and opinions that she does).  Anything less was mean to her,

[Starboard Song]

I've heard that I should be thankful that my parents aren't physically abusive alcoholics.  My grandfathers both were.   So because my parents weren't and because my mother was enmeshed to the point that she didn't want me to go anywhere without her or live on my own until I was almost 30, this was proof that she loved me.  I should be appreciative of her "help" (constant criticism, insults, and expectation that I do everything and only have the exact same likes and opinions that she does).  Anything less was mean to her,

That is a sadly common thing to hear. It is not how moral standards work.

[Hepatica]

Do you all think that this is about power? I mean, the disordered parent seems to think they get an automatic pass on anything they do, because we live in a culture that has the words "honour thy father and thy mother" weaved into our lives. I think there are some (toxic) parents out there who believe this idea puts them in the powerful position of thinking they can do whatever they want, terrible as it may be, and children still must honour them. I am speaking from being raised in Christian family but I know the honour of parents can be found in many cultures and religions.

Sometimes I wish so badly that there was another commandment that said something about honouring your child and raising your child with love.

In my family it seems as if my uNPDf thinks as well that if something happened behind closed doors it didn't actually happen. It would have to be witnessed by a non-family member. He feels free of accountability because what isn't seen by a non-family member can easily be explained away and manipulated. Saying they don't know what they did wrong is the ultimate form of gaslighting. They know what they did. They just refuse to be accountable and worst of all, many toxic parents absolutely refuse to apologize. That is a big issue for me. I feel that I could easily apologize to my teen, and I have, and know when I am in the wrong.

If I tried to tell my uNPDf he'd tell me I was overly sensitive and blew things out of proportion, or twisted what he said. It's just a no win and it's sad.

[Andeza]

Well, Hepatica, there kinda is a command for that.

Ephesians 6:4 "And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord."

I read that one off to my uBPDm once when she was on a monologue and it didn't go too well. I'm afraid it's a combination of refusing to accept responsibility for their actions, and the trauma of abusing us (ironic isn't it?) triggers the off switch on their memories in some cases. Not all. Just some. Mine will never apologize, not really. I would get those blanket fauxpologies "I'm sorry if I ever hurt you..." that mean nothing. Kinda worse than no apology at all honestly.

[pianissimo]

I think this is some kind of gaslighting.  1-This lays out the foundation for the idea that what happened was not such a big deal and you are being too sensitive, 2- It invites you to be vulnerable with them so that they can invalidate your feelings and tell you what a sensitive person you are.

[TwentyTwenty]

In my personal situation and experience, I believe it has to do with an amplified denial of the 'truth' that they cannot accept as a replacement for the 'truth' that they refuse to let go of.

It's true when we are children, we completely rely on our parents and they have authority over us. How well the executed that authority over us may be another story.

But when an opposing truth comes, that replaces the truth they have known all of our lives as minors, they cannot accept it.

An apposing truth: my child no longer answers to me, is not under my control, that I cannot discipline, that doesn't have to do as I say or else... that is not a reality that they can accept. It's not 'true' to them.

I know others that have experienced the same thing, and have even been told "it's just a phase you're going through, you've always had those issues".

Just a phase like a 14 yr old rebellious teenager. That is what they are sure of.

When you exercise your right as a grown adult, they simply cannot accept and comprehend what you are doing, and see it as a childlike rebellion against their 'honor your mom and dad' comment made earlier.

When my parents told me to move out of the city, and that I must change my name, they actually expected me to obey them.

When I had my lawyer send them a cease and desist order, they opened it and wrote back saying they expected it was certification of my name change and was mad that it wasn't.

Adding to that, stating that I was the shame to all generations of both family names, and I was a disgrace.

Do you think I care if that worm dies today and falls in a ditch?  Just one less person in the world that believes that I am evil.

So in my particular case, my narcs absolutely believe they have done nothing wrong.

My 'truth' does not fit their narrative.

So, they'll never see me again.

[Call Me Cordelia]

They WROTE BACK to your lawyer's cease and desist order?  Just when you think you've seen it all on here...

[TwentyTwenty]

Yeah it was amazing! And they couldn't quit, they wrote her again what liar I am, and had my brother chime in and write her also saying he never harassed me.

Again, this was after she sent all three of them individual c&d letters. Amazing.

She forwarded me their emails a few times before I guess they finally satisfied themselves, which is good because I think she was about to send her own cease and desist to them as well.. 😅

[poetandpunk]

Please forgive me if I say something someone else has said - I didn't get to read everyone's replies.

I have thought about this issue a lot myself. I've come to the conclusion that maybe my own NPD parents 'don't understand what they done wrong.' But that is part of the problem! And it's not my responsibility to explain again or really at all. In going NC, I am not playing some middle school mean girl mind game. Personally I've gone NC because I know 'contact' is pointless because it's like speaking in two different language. A relationship or conversation in the most basic sense is not possible.

When my NPD parents have said they don't even know what they've done wrong, I think: yes, that's probably true. But it is extremely revealing.

A somewhat normal adult, even some total jerks, usually know when they have done something wrong and what it was. They might not admit it or like it, but they know. They know when they have crossed a line: used inappropriate language, violated basic boundaries, were manipulative or cruel. Most people know. They might not apologise but they know.

The fact that many PD/nPD claim that they don't know is just further evidence that they have a PD and that NC is often necessary. People with PDs do not have a normal or healthy gauge of human behaviour. They could scream at you in public and not think twice about acting like it was totally normal. My NPD once started a shouting match with my sister in a sky car with a dozen strangers watching. She could care less that she was ruining their vacation activity or ours. It never occurred to her that she owed everyone an apology. She didn't think her behaviour was off.

So if someone says they don't know what they did wrong I just see it as baiting me for conversation and nothing more, certainly not an indication that they care about the possibility of having done something wrong. Usually if someone cares they can pick out what they have done on their own.

[Leonor]

 

Totally! It hadn't occurred to me that the pleading, "I wish I knew ..." nonsense was a bait to get dragged into yet another drama-filled convo for them to feed off of. Makes total sense. Thanks for the clarity moment I just had!

[p123]

In my personal situation and experience, I believe it has to do with an amplified denial of the 'truth' that they cannot accept as a replacement for the 'truth' that they refuse to let go of.

It's true when we are children, we completely rely on our parents and they have authority over us. How well the executed that authority over us may be another story.

But when an opposing truth comes, that replaces the truth they have known all of our lives as minors, they cannot accept it.

An apposing truth: my child no longer answers to me, is not under my control, that I cannot discipline, that doesn't have to do as I say or else... that is not a reality that they can accept. It's not 'true' to them.

I know others that have experienced the same thing, and have even been told "it's just a phase you're going through, you've always had those issues".

Just a phase like a 14 yr old rebellious teenager. That is what they are sure of.

When you exercise your right as a grown adult, they simply cannot accept and comprehend what you are doing, and see it as a childlike rebellion against their 'honor your mom and dad' comment made earlier.

When my parents told me to move out of the city, and that I must change my name, they actually expected me to obey them.

When I had my lawyer send them a cease and desist order, they opened it and wrote back saying they expected it was certification of my name change and was mad that it wasn't.

Adding to that, stating that I was the shame to all generations of both family names, and I was a disgrace.

Do you think I care if that worm dies today and falls in a ditch?  Just one less person in the world that believes that I am evil.

So in my particular case, my narcs absolutely believe they have done nothing wrong.

My 'truth' does not fit their narrative.

So, they'll never see me again.

If you don't mind me asking why did they want you to move? To be nearer them?
And the name change?

My wife double-barrelled her name when we got married. I just thought "so what up to her". My Dad basically tried to tell me it was disrespecting him. Eh?
I also had another one of his famous (and worrying) chats where he told me I needed to "sort my wife out and remind her whos boss". Scary eh?

[blacksheep7]

My wife double-barrelled her name when we got married. I just thought "so what up to her". My Dad basically tried to tell me it was disrespecting him. Eh?
I also had another one of his famous (and worrying) chats where he told me I needed to "sort my wife out and remind her whos boss". Scary eh?

He got stuck in the 50's

I am married for the second time.  The first, I took my ex h name because that's how it was forty years ago plus I have a name that I need to always spell, not English. Younger I was embaressed about it and today people tell me that it's quite original and like it.  Anyhow, the second time I just kept my maiden name finally accepting it, meaning I am accepting and liking myself, period.  Why not.   My dh does not feel disrespected at all. 

[TwentyTwenty]

@P123, yes that is scary indeed.

They wanted me to change my name because they said I was a shame to the entire lineage of our last name, and didn't deserve to be called by that.

They wanted me to move away; they didn't want to even have the slight chance that we may cross paths. So I should move away to make sure they didn't have to endure even a single second of me if we both happen to be out and about.