separation - partner using kids as leverage

spunout21 · August 08, 2021, 07:45:34 PM

Hi good folk,

I'm reaching out to this forum for support and ideas. I am in the painful and tumultuous process of separating from my PD partner of 20+ years. He is not accepting the reality of our separation despite very clear messaging from me. He is not diagnosed with PD, however I have recently come 'Out of the FOG' and recognised all this chronic crazymaking, impossible relational behaviour is firmly pointed towards it - and for years I have been wondering about narcissist qualities dressed up as 'niceness and childlike lovingness' - provided things are going his way. Since March, I have finally, after more than 10 years of ambivalence and struggle to honour my needs in the face of his always more urgent emotional needs, found the courage and clarity I needed to unhook and to state that I want a separation and to follow through in holding this line. The complication is that we are for the most part separating under one roof with me only now after 4months, going to stay elsewhere for one week, every second week. We have two teenage kids. Since he will not accept the separation, he continues to press on with this idea of 'fixing the relationship', and revolutionising his behaviour, under the idea that our separation is 'really just a break so we can rebuild" and so he can prove that he is changing. After 4 months, in this circular struggle with me on this, he is now starting to use the kids as leverage. Last night my 14 yo daughter revealed that he is calling her on the phone and telling her that she is the only one he can trust, that he and she have a special bond, that he knows she just wants the family to stay together and that she should tell me so and tell me that I am causing damage to everyone. She told me how conflicted she is and how she does not want to be caught up in this, but she fears if she does not agree with him, she will break his trust and he will withdraw his love. This is so harmful. She does not want me to talk with him for fear of breaking his trust. I am so furious with him for doing this. It is impossible to talk with him about the impact of his tactic to get me to stay on her mental health - since he is adamant that me 'giving up on the family' is dangerous and wrong and is harming everyone. I am not giving up on my kids, or myself, I am taking action to end a relationship that is not working and that has left me burnt out and out of love. I am trying to learn how to establish boundaries and consequences for boundaries - particularly around blame messaging, personal space and touch; future family plans talk and love talk. He is not accepting any of my position statements or boundaries and only turns it around - I am cruel and mean and deliberately hurting him and the kids. The element of the boundary setting I am missing is the consequence - what I will do if he continues to overstep my boundary. One consequence was to move out for one week, which I have just started, however with the love messaging and constant physical affection, I'm not sure what to choose as a consequence. Other than, I will turn away and walk into another room. Any ideas for reasonable consequences when someone continues to express love and physical affection in spite of telling them its uncomfortable and unwelcome? Also, has anyone navigated territory of partner using emotional blackmail with kids to leverage what they want? Sorry if this is unclear, just feel so despairing right now. Thank you

Boat Babe · August 09, 2021, 03:20:14 AM

Hi spunout. I just wanted to say Hi and send you a huge hug. This sounds intolerable and I wanted to let you know we are here for you. I don't have any immediate advice, others here will, but I am sending love and courage.

escapingman · August 09, 2021, 03:29:43 AM

This could have been written by me, although I am a man and the PD in my case is a woman. She tries to blame it all on me and is doing all she can to turn the kids against me. She constantly put them in a position where they need to chose between her and me, I fall apart when she does it as the kids have to pick her every time as if not she explodes and paint them black. She also refuse to accept that we are splitting up, after her last outburst (which left one child in such a state in a panic attack I had to take her to A&E) I have not included her in anything I/we do. In her world that's me being mean so she keeps trying and trying to be close to me, invite herself to the smallest shopping trip and to be close to me and touch me. Every rejection from me and she complains, play the victim role or have an outburst.

So to your question regarding consequence for the behaviour, they don't do consequences. At least not my wife, the more I "punish" her the more she tries. The only thing that can give me some respite is to be doing MC and GR and try to just exist around her. The only option for me is to move out (as she refuse), but this is not a punishment this is for my own mental health (and the kids). My SG spoke to me yesterday on her initiative and told me to stop believing my wife when she says she will change and be nice as she never will, she also said she would like us all to live together as a happy family but she knows that will never happen as she can't change. SG even encouraged me to move out and to also find a therapist for her as she feel so stressed by her mums behaviour.

Good luck with everything!

PlantFlowersNotWeeds · August 09, 2021, 07:57:56 AM

You are in a tough position.

I have some reminders for you that I'm sure you are telling yourself already- you can not change his behavior regarding your children. Keep being the good mom you are - listen to your children, don't try to solve the problem (because you can not), try not to put their father down, acknowledge their feelings, continue to parent - avoid trying to be the "fun" parent, keep being the parent that offers a solid, predictable foundation. Continue to stay connected to them. You can't predict what will happen.....you can just do you the best you can for them.

Use the tools - I read Stop Caretaking the Borderline - the full title/author is in the tool box. I was able to download the audiobook free from my library. It was very helpful and I am going to re-listen to it as I am struggling myself this week. At times, it just feels so hard and lonely struggling with it all.

notrightinthehead · August 09, 2021, 10:51:13 AM

Spunout21, welcome! Have you read and re-read the Toolbox? You might want to teach your daughter medium chill and grey rock as well. Since her father is trying to manipulate her and using her as a flying monkey she needs to learn the tools to protect herself. These tools are useful in many social situations so you are not turning her against her father when you equip her with some defensive strategies.
As for the unwanted signs of love and affection. Grey rock them! Show nothing. No dislike, no like, nothing. When he tells you he loves you, you say aha with a face that shows nothing. Search for grey rock on Youtube, there used to be some excellent examples there. When he then complains that you are cold and mean, medium chill with something like "you seem to be upset or you think I am mean" again, your face showing nothing. You become as boring as a grey stone. This is actually not easy to do and it requires practise but it is a powerful tool to protect your emotional balance. People with PD seem to be comfortable in emotional storms, while we cannot think clearly and do and say things we later regret. Therefore anything you can do to remain calm is a point for you.

eyesopen · August 09, 2021, 05:16:14 PM

A book that I found helpful was Don't Alienate the Kids: Raising Resilient Children While Avoiding High-Conflict Divorce by Bill Eddy. It covers in great depth with plenty of examples all the different ways a high-conflict parent can complicate the process of separation and divorce and gives great advice for how the more level-headed parent can handle it all. I didn't come across the book until a few months after the divorce was final, we were living separately, and conflict started to arise. It would've been even better to read earlier in the process, but it was still greatly helpful to me.

For the other things you're facing, simply enforcing your boundaries will usually result in a natural consequence. You don't need to explain yourself or have a separate punishment in mind for it to work. For example, if he's professing his love for you, it can be ignored, gray-rocked, or otherwise dismissed. Basically, you refuse to receive or acknowledge his love messages, that's the enforcement of the boundary. And he doesn't get any kind of reaction out of you, that's the consequence. And the physical affection can be dealt with by using both physical and stern verbal rejection. He tries to touch you, you can slap his hand away and say firmly, "don't touch me." That enforces the boundary and the consequence is that he doesn't get to use physical affection to try to manipulate you.

Temlaur · August 10, 2021, 12:05:00 AM

Quote from: spunout21 on August 08, 2021, 07:45:34 PM
Hi good folk,

I'm reaching out to this forum for support and ideas. I am in the painful and tumultuous process of separating from my PD partner of 20+ years. He is not accepting the reality of our separation despite very clear messaging from me. He is not diagnosed with PD, however I have recently come 'Out of the FOG' and recognised all this chronic crazymaking, impossible relational behaviour is firmly pointed towards it - and for years I have been wondering about narcissist qualities dressed up as 'niceness and childlike lovingness' - provided things are going his way. Since March, I have finally, after more than 10 years of ambivalence and struggle to honour my needs in the face of his always more urgent emotional needs, found the courage and clarity I needed to unhook and to state that I want a separation and to follow through in holding this line. The complication is that we are for the most part separating under one roof with me only now after 4months, going to stay elsewhere for one week, every second week. We have two teenage kids. Since he will not accept the separation, he continues to press on with this idea of 'fixing the relationship', and revolutionising his behaviour, under the idea that our separation is 'really just a break so we can rebuild" and so he can prove that he is changing. After 4 months, in this circular struggle with me on this, he is now starting to use the kids as leverage. Last night my 14 yo daughter revealed that he is calling her on the phone and telling her that she is the only one he can trust, that he and she have a special bond, that he knows she just wants the family to stay together and that she should tell me so and tell me that I am causing damage to everyone. She told me how conflicted she is and how she does not want to be caught up in this, but she fears if she does not agree with him, she will break his trust and he will withdraw his love. This is so harmful. She does not want me to talk with him for fear of breaking his trust. I am so furious with him for doing this. It is impossible to talk with him about the impact of his tactic to get me to stay on her mental health - since he is adamant that me 'giving up on the family' is dangerous and wrong and is harming everyone. I am not giving up on my kids, or myself, I am taking action to end a relationship that is not working and that has left me burnt out and out of love. I am trying to learn how to establish boundaries and consequences for boundaries - particularly around blame messaging, personal space and touch; future family plans talk and love talk. He is not accepting any of my position statements or boundaries and only turns it around - I am cruel and mean and deliberately hurting him and the kids. The element of the boundary setting I am missing is the consequence - what I will do if he continues to overstep my boundary. One consequence was to move out for one week, which I have just started, however with the love messaging and constant physical affection, I'm not sure what to choose as a consequence. Other than, I will turn away and walk into another room. Any ideas for reasonable consequences when someone continues to express love and physical affection in spite of telling them its uncomfortable and unwelcome? Also, has anyone navigated territory of partner using emotional blackmail with kids to leverage what they want? Sorry if this is unclear, just feel so despairing right now. Thank you

I joined this forum tonight and this is the first post I read and it mirrors my situation almost exactly, sad and affirming at the same time. I have no advice but I have empathy, especially with the constant touching and unwanted "affection " he follows me around the house, we have slept in separate bedrooms for 5 months now and 3/4 morning per week I wake up with him in my room and his hand all over me, I can't yell at him because my young son is in the same room. It makes me feel ill. He won't accept a separation and has the exact same mindset as yours. My plan is to move out soon, I have no other choice. I can't really afford it but my mental health and that of my children is suffering badly

spunout21 · August 10, 2021, 10:39:57 PM

Hello good kind people and thanks for your thoughtful responses.
To Boatbabe - thanks for the hug, I met my need for support and being seen, and I felt it.
To EscapingMan - there's comfort in finding shared reality with you, although your situation sounds far worse than mine, since you are experiencing verbal and psychological abuse in a different way. For me, its the lovebombing that is near insufferable, particularly in the face of harsher and harsher messages of NO from me. It turns to anger and blame when he begins to register what I'm saying, then he quickly pretends none of it was ever stated and returns to lovebombing and pretending we're a happy famly, making plasn for the future and renovating the house. To read how your wife is not accepting the separation, is so relatable for me and really brought it home for me - I can't imagine how our others can put themselves in a position of insisting we stay with them, even when they know the other person does not want to be there. Thanks for your show of support and I wish you the best. Sounds like removing yourself from the thick of your situation, when possible will make a big difference for you. That's what I'm trying to do, although it kills me to stay away from my kids. Separating under one roof with a person with such high instability is hugely challenging. Take care.
To PlantFlowersNotWeeds - thanks for the reminder on ways to stay firm and true to my own line and where my responsibliity begins and ends - I will read the article you suggested!!
To Notrightinthehead - thanks for the suggestions re. MC and GR. Even though this situation is insufferable for me, I still do care about this man and wish him no harm and I need to ultimately forge a lifelong relationship with him as co-parent - so tring to tow the line between going cold/GR and not caring and practicing goodwill in the spirit of future relationship is a super tricky and emotional business, but I'm learning maybe the cold part comes first to help the penny drop - maybe it really is necessary - anything else just gives him false hope and plays into his illusion that we are happy families. I'm going to give it more of a go, and see about introducing the concept to my daughter. Thanks
To Eyeswideopen - thanks for the resource suggestion! ALso, remembering natural consequences is a good thing. I don't have any intention of punishing him, its more what action will I take to protect and respect my needs when he oversteps a boundary (knowingly) and how will I give him the heads up on ways I will do that. Funnily, my daughter told me, she wants to see me stop behaving like a mouse and 'taking' his hugs and kisses and to see me state my boundaries and slap his arms away loudly and firmly! I know I have been trying to protect my ex-partners dignity and my own integrity in front of the kids by not behaving in a mean way, but turns out they've got their eyes wide open already!

spunout21 · August 10, 2021, 10:50:58 PM

TO Temlaur: I'm receiving your empathy and sending super warm empathic streams back toward you and your situation too. Unwanted touch/ intimacy that goes on day after day despite clear messaging about what is okay and not okay is a deeply sickening experience. I have experienced this for years and years. The groping, the opportunistic grabs at my body when my hands are full; the trickery around it all - "its just a hug I promise" and then the ramping up of the behaviours when I state what I won't accept

All dressed up as "but I love you so much, can't I show you that??" I am so sorry you are going through this too. At least my other has finally for the most part recognised the line re. different sleeping spaces and no longer helps himself into my bed (this is only in recent 3 weeks) - however the following around the house and blocking of doorways is still as strong as ever. Is there any way you can lock your door? Would your safety be at risk if you were to push him away or show him in a more overt way that your body is off limits and that his his touch is not welcome, not invited? Its such a perverse (or deluded) act of entitlement and power. Your body is yours. I hope you can move out soon to improve your mental health and get your body back.

escapingman · August 11, 2021, 04:45:29 AM

Don't get me wrong, but I totally agree that the hardest bit is actually when she is doing some kind of love bombing. Not that it is any particular effort from her side but I find it astonishing how someone can stand and shout and swear at you, hurl insults and then a couple of days later pretend it never happened and then get annoyed because I am "cold" towards her. She has not got it into her head that we should go out for a meal and celebrate our wedding anniversary that we never celebrated when it happened. I told her I think the kids are too young to be left alone (which I actually think) and she got annoyed. It's quite funny she has not trusted them to do anything without her before and suddenly they should be on their own an entire evening.

I hope you can get some space away from him and to regain some energy. Good luck!

Lauren17 · August 13, 2021, 06:06:29 PM

This is exactly what I'm going through as well. UNPDh is acting as though I never mentioned divorce. He is acting the perfect husband and father roles. He's saying kind things, bringing gifts, laughing loudly. He keeps talking about fixing the relationship.
I'm with eacapingman, this is much harder to cope with than the discard. My head is spinning, trying to figure out his motivations so I can protect myself.
I also highly recommend Don't Alienate the Kids. And gray rock, medium chill, just like others have suggested.
Best wishes. Come back here, whenever you need to share with people who get it.