Today is my birthday. I could really use some support

[WearyHusband]

Bloomie,

Thank you for your response. I have met Danny Silk (briefly) and I am very familiar with his work. His book, "Loving Your Kids on Purpose" had a deeply affecting influence on both my parenting and leadership, for which I am very grateful.

I look forward to watching the videos. I try to "Keep my love on" as I come Out of the FOG. This has been a very long and challenging adventure as I navigate irrational and extreme behavior from my uPDw who is a deeply compassionate and wise woman, but manifests behavior in the privacy of our home and our marriage relationship that she does not exhibit anywhere else. This is another aspect of navigating a marriage to a (potentially) PD spouse that is so confusing..

I especially appreciate your encouragement about how far I have progressed and your practical suggestions about a cooler in the garage. I often feel like I am so slow in my progress, so your words are especially encouraging, as are SoT's words of encouragement.

When I set boundaries and try to do what I think is good, healthy, and right for myself, I waiver back and forth between feeling very empowered and then feel guilty for harming my uPDw, as she often reacts to my boundaries in a way that shows that she feels threatened when I set boundaries. The emotional distance between us only has increased. It's so confusing. We haven't touched affectionately in over eight months, though I have tried over and over to initiate affectionate contact. We both are (apparently) committed to Jesus as a guiding ethic and leader, but the way this plays out in our relationship is so, so confusing. My uPDw is not willing/able to touch affectionately, feels afraid when she is near me, and has no rational explanation for how I can change to connect with her, though I have spent almost $30,000 on therapy between the two of us to try to create a healthier bond. We even attended two conferences at Bethel. These brought temporary breakthroughs, followed by slipping back into old patterns of dysfunction. Whatever requests she has made, I have complied with - and her fear and erratic behavior in our home only becomes worse.

I'm now thinking I need to set boundaries for myself and only comply with demands she makes that I believe are good and healthy for me and our family (including our marriage), no matter her response, and respecting Danny Silk's advice. I need to decide whether to stay or leave based on her response to my setting of boundaries. I'm lonely and deprived and suffering the physical, emotional, and mental affects from ongoing patterns of emotional and verbal abuse that no one sees because it happens in the privacy of our marriage relationship. I'm also dealing with the frustration I experience of her denial and "boomerang" communication when I try to bring up these issues and how they affect me in a loving way. I'm convinced that she dissociates and has no awareness of her behavior in her darker moments.

As a person of faith, I think that God relates to us all with love. But every human brain has the capacity to create alternate "splitting" parts during times of trauma in childhood, from which they react in times of stress later in life, though they are not aware of it. This explanation provides a bit of solace for me - my uPDw doesn't actually believe or realize the things she says and does. It's part of her brain that was formed during intense times of trauma earlier in her life. I still believe the HS and/or really good therapy when someone is motivated to change can heal these things, and our situation is not hopeless. But until either of those things take place, I need to take care of myself and move on with my life in ways that are healthy for me and good example for my children.

I love her, but I don't want to be a "Caretaker" and enabler of abusive behavior any longer.

-WH

[escapingman]

Weary, I really feel for you and I can relate to everything you write. Me an my uNPDw have not had any intimacy for over 2 years, not slept in the same bed other than odd nights for 3 years. Only "intimacy" we had was me massaging her feet when watching TV, I got so fed up with that one way stream so I started to ask her to massage my feet and she only laughed. So I stopped. The only times she tries to be any intimate is when she feels rejected and need to try to win me back, just so she can reject me. Weird.

Your beer story I can fully relate to as well, not with alcohol but with food. I am not allowed to cook or eat anything that smells. In her world everything smells so unless I am up for a fight, I need to cook and eat "approved" meals. I am pushing back on this more and more, the other day I decided to fry a couple of herrings. It was a bit of smoke in the air and the kitchen smelt a bit of fried fish, but that's what a kitchen should do isn't it? However, she lost the plot and came screaming at me how inconsiderate I was and how dare I fry fish. Then she flipped even more as I wasn't allowed to open a window to vent as that would give all the insect an opening in to the house (she believes we have an infestation and that something is wrong with our house and garden as we have so many insects, she is the only one that sees them by the way). Indian food, that has been banned for as long as I can remember. But the kids love it and I have started cooking it, she has just about started accepting me doing it but only the very mild ready made sauces.

One of my kids have met a new friend and invited her to our house, wow, this is scary. So a 12 year old child is coming to visit and play with our daughter, then they are having pizza together, what does uNPDw do? She spent the entire Sunday panicking and cleaning, shouting and stressing. The entire house has been cleaned, items put away and the other child been told to stay away. She is asking where she is supposed to be but that's irrelevant, nothing can go wrong as our perfect house and life must be show cased - for a 12 year old....

We had a long talk on Friday, I was confronted by uNPDw why I was ignoring her and why I was so mean to her. I tried to explain everything from my point of view, she challenged everything but in the end accepted to try to be better. I am in no real rush but always believe in giving someone a chance (must be her 1000th chance), but we agreed to try and also to try to have a united front with the kids. This is the really tricky bit as we don't agree with how to handle the kids. I told her no shouting and no smacking to reprimand them, but calmly try to handle them and tell them what they are doing wrong (or right). That took about 5 minutes before she went into a rage with them. If she has painted me white, someone else needs to be painted black. In this case, both children and alternating between who is black and who is white. The crazy making makes us all just confused. The entire weekend was just a long merry go round with her raging at one or two children, men asking her to stop and telling her it is not OK, then comforting the child and trying to tell calmly what they did and then round we go. Yesterday I took both kids out to the park for 2 hours, never invited uNPDw as she was so busy cleaning. Both kids were so happy and laughed and was mischievous as kids should be. Then back to the house for another merry go round.

I am not sure how much patient you have left Weary, but mine is gone. The only way to win this as I see it is to just set the boundaries and then work on our selves. I think for me the final straw has been to see how she behaves with the kids and how incapable she is to understand what she does is wrong.  She compares herself to the children and she very much behaves like she is one of them. I am tired to have 3 children in the house where I can only reason with 2 of them (the 2 real children).

Weary, please go and restock your fridge!

[SonofThunder]

Bloomie,

Thank you for your response. I have met Danny Silk (briefly) and I am very familiar with his work. His book, "Loving Your Kids on Purpose" had a deeply affecting influence on both my parenting and leadership, for which I am very grateful.

I look forward to watching the videos. I try to "Keep my love on" as I come Out of the FOG. This has been a very long and challenging adventure as I navigate irrational and extreme behavior from my uPDw who is a deeply compassionate and wise woman, but manifests behavior in the privacy of our home and our marriage relationship that she does not exhibit anywhere else. This is another aspect of navigating a marriage to a (potentially) PD spouse that is so confusing..

I especially appreciate your encouragement about how far I have progressed and your practical suggestions about a cooler in the garage. I often feel like I am so slow in my progress, so your words are especially encouraging, as are SoT's words of encouragement.

When I set boundaries and try to do what I think is good, healthy, and right for myself, I waiver back and forth between feeling very empowered and then feel guilty for harming my uPDw, as she often reacts to my boundaries in a way that shows that she feels threatened when I set boundaries. The emotional distance between us only has increased. It's so confusing. We haven't touched affectionately in over eight months, though I have tried over and over to initiate affectionate contact. We both are (apparently) committed to Jesus as a guiding ethic and leader, but the way this plays out in our relationship is so, so confusing. My uPDw is not willing/able to touch affectionately, feels afraid when she is near me, and has no rational explanation for how I can change to connect with her, though I have spent almost $30,000 on therapy between the two of us to try to create a healthier bond. We even attended two conferences at Bethel. These brought temporary breakthroughs, followed by slipping back into old patterns of dysfunction. Whatever requests she has made, I have complied with - and her fear and erratic behavior in our home only becomes worse.

I'm now thinking I need to set boundaries for myself and only comply with demands she makes that I believe are good and healthy for me and our family (including our marriage), no matter her response, and respecting Danny Silk's advice. I need to decide whether to stay or leave based on her response to my setting of boundaries. I'm lonely and deprived and suffering the physical, emotional, and mental affects from ongoing patterns of emotional and verbal abuse that no one sees because it happens in the privacy of our marriage relationship. I'm also dealing with the frustration I experience of her denial and "boomerang" communication when I try to bring up these issues and how they affect me in a loving way. I'm convinced that she dissociates and has no awareness of her behavior in her darker moments.

As a person of faith, I think that God relates to us all with love. But every human brain has the capacity to create alternate "splitting" parts during times of trauma in childhood, from which they react in times of stress later in life, though they are not aware of it. This explanation provides a bit of solace for me - my uPDw doesn't actually believe or realize the things she says and does. It's part of her brain that was formed during intense times of trauma earlier in her life. I still believe the HS and/or really good therapy when someone is motivated to change can heal these things, and our situation is not hopeless. But until either of those things take place, I need to take care of myself and move on with my life in ways that are healthy for me and good example for my children.

I love her, but I don't want to be a "Caretaker" and enabler of abusive behavior any longer.

-WH

Hi Weary,

I really enjoyed reading the depth of this post by you and the deep heartfelt writing in response to Bloomies wonderful, informative and supportive post.  I agree with Bloomie's encouragement that you are making fantastic progress as you "stand firm in an honorable way in your sphere of influence, own life, own home."

In the middle of your reply, was this paragraph, and i believe it may be beneficial to examine it a bit closer.  Weary wrote:

"I waiver back and forth between feeling very empowered and then feel guilty for harming my uPDw, as she often reacts to my boundaries in a way that shows that she feels threatened when I set boundaries. The emotional distance between us only has increased. It's so confusing. We haven't touched affectionately in over eight months, though I have tried over and over to initiate affectionate contact. We both are (apparently) committed to Jesus as a guiding ethic and leader, but the way this plays out in our relationship is so, so confusing. My uPDw is not willing/able to touch affectionately, feels afraid when she is near me, and has no rational explanation for how I can change to connect with her, though I have spent almost $30,000 on therapy between the two of us to try to create a healthier bond. We even attended two conferences at Bethel. These brought temporary breakthroughs, followed by slipping back into old patterns of dysfunction. Whatever requests she has made, I have complied with - and her fear and erratic behavior in our home only becomes worse."


Breaking that paragraph into sections:

1 "I feel guilty for harming my uPDw, as she often reacts to my boundaries in a way that shows that she feels threatened when I set boundaries."

I personally like to think about protective boundaries in very real world settings that most everyone encounters; road construction. Construction barriers are erected by road crews to protect the workers and protect the forward progress of the corrective work.  Do you believe that encountering construction barriers should be a 'threatening' reaction to a driver?   Do you believe the construction workers are 'harming' the driver by making that portion of the road a slow-down; a detour; a impassible barrier?  Do you believe that its ok for anyone to confront the construction workers for erecting the barrier?  The answer to all are an emphatic 'no'.  Therefore imo, its clear to see that your uPDw's reactions are abnormal, self-focused and attempts to control Weary, the construction worker who is sectioning-off certain areas of his life that need repair, alteration and fortification.  This work is proper work; work that Weary has full right to do.  Therefore, like the road crew, you are NOT harming your uPDw and therefore the guilt you feel is because of her PD-driven reaction (refer to 3C's rule), her conditioning you over the many years to react this way and your unbalanced caretaker traits which you have now put 'under construction'.  Part of your healing alteration work is, imo, shedding or dismissing the feelings of guilt for good, proper, adult-right chosen, contruction work on your own life. 

2. "The emotional distance between us only has increased. It's so confusing". 

This is to be expected, especially because of PD traits and your protective roadwork (#1).  In my experience, there is nothing you can do (except retreat backwards into caretaking behaviors) to close the distance.  My experiences are that the distances get farther apart.  But that choice is 100% your wifes choice, as your proper construction zone has detoured her down a road she has never taken and her deepest underlying trait 'Fear of Abandonment' (i recommend you study/understand it) is rearing its head as she navigates the new route.  Its NOT your problem and in fact, is detrimental imo for you to attempt to reduce her experiences by caretaking.  Enough driving down new roads and your wife will steadily be conditioned that she can ACTUALLY navigate herself in new situations.  But again, the emotional detour is to be expected.  So Weary, i suggest you look back intently at your daydream list, and supplement your emotional needs by spending more time with your kids, your friends, your coworkers, your acquaintances you meet in your daydream paths and finally in yourself and your one-on-one relationship with Christ. (i understand your stated faith, and its importance to you, albeit this is not the religion section of the forum, i believe it should be in this list on this thread). 

3. " We haven't touched affectionately in over eight months, though I have tried over and over to initiate affectionate contact.". 

Imo, this is  A: sexual control-manipulation in a marriage and B: your  "...tried over and over..."  feeds her intense need to be needed, but in a strange and truly hurtful way, also feeds her need to powerfully control by denying the same for you.  She has turned the beauty of sex within marriage into an emotional  'trap'  because of the marital covenant of fidelity.  I personally believe (and also experience) this most sadistic control move.  I will no longer 'over and over'.  I will, in my marital obligation and covenant, offer my time and care to provide my wife emotional and sexual affection, but if i am denied by her on my first offer, i will not physically suffer for her choices for herself and will take matters into my own hands...literally.  When the time arises again to offer to her again, it is the same process.  My uPDw, no longer is given the sadistic thrill of sexual denial and manipulation of me, but only of herself. 

4. "We both are (apparently) committed to Jesus as a guiding ethic and leader, but the way this plays out in our relationship is so, so confusing."

Really???  I personally believe the hypocrisy of this experience with my uPDw is one of most difficult mental challenges in dealing with faith-proclaiming PD's.  I personally disconnect myself from attaching those kind of thoughts and statements to my uPDw and uPDfather, and instead focus only on myself.  So if I wrote that sentence, it would instead read "I am committed to Jesus as a guiding ethic and leader, but my uPDw's behaviors don't align with similar statements that she communicates.  But thats between her and Jesus to work on." 

5. "Whatever requests she has made, I have complied with - and her fear and erratic behavior in our home only becomes worse." 

Imo, this is the ever-changing, ever-higher high-jump bar relationship that exists between a caretaker and a PD.  You are proactively shedding this behavior, so expect some severe pushback and punishing emotional distance (the two D's of the IDD cycle) to heighten.  I recommend toolbox reactions and an emotional 'indifference' to her attempts to reset you back into your caretaker role. 

SoT

[WearyHusband]

escapingman and SoT,

I'm grateful for your empathy and encouraging words. SoT, truly, you've been a lifeline of sanity and wisdom as I move forward. Thank you.

Escapingman, two years? Oh my. I thought my situation was rough after eight months. I hope you find courage and wisdom to make decisions in coming days that are helpful for you and good for your children. In the meantime, please know that you are valuable and worthy of love that you are not receiving from your spouse in this season of your life.

Here's what happened in my situation next in the story of this thread...

Today I was out in the driveway with my 15 year old.

He said, "Dad, why is there beer in the bush?"

I looked over at a bush in our front yard and see that the rest of the five beers my wife took from our refrigerator are stashed there, hanging from a limb.

I had no idea what to say that would be honorable to my uPDw.

I said, "Well, I guess mom put them there. I'm not sure why."

Now I'm wondering what the heck I should do.

Leave them there? Take them back into the house? Take them into the garage?

Technically, these are mine, but I don't want to stir up more chaos or do things that are unproductive. This is so freaking bizarre.

I hate that my son saw a six pack of beer (five anyway) hanging in the bush in our front yard.

On a hopeful front, I found a new therapist today who has extensive experience with Caretakers and PD relationships. Man, it was so encouraging to meet with a therapist who understood what the heck I've been going through and could be a safe place to advise me in my own healing journey.

-WH

[escapingman]

Weary, this is such standard PD behaviour. When in a rage my uNPDw throws stuff all over, it could be food, it could be items, it could be just anything. Before I used to pick it up and clean if required, now I leave it as it is her mess. I have realised now that after a couple of days, she normally put the items back. To take an example with beer as that's what your story is about, she took out a handful of expensive craft beer I had in my beer fridge and just threw them over the worktop. In her mind as I have learnt, the only reason was to get a reaction and to hurt me. I left those beers laying on the worktop until she eventually put them back in the fridge. She has never taken my beers out and threw them again. My advice to you, if you can hack it, is to leave those beer hanging in the bush until she takes them away (or someone else nicks them).

[SonofThunder]

Weary,

Sometimes, the bizarre actions/reactions of my uPDw can be so odd (and sometimes so hypocritical) that its slightly humorous.  Sorry to find a bit of humor in your post, but I already know you are a man of faith and maybe you, like Jesus on occasion, find some humor in life's situations. I have a managing coworker who states to me regarding some of the odd things some difficult employees under his management do and say:  "if he and I cant find some things in their odd actions/reactions to laugh about, were just going to go insane." 

Well, I cant help but chuckle a little at the similarity of your story to the Abraham/Isaac story.

Weary 22:13-14   "He said, "Dad, why is there beer in the bush?"  I looked over at a bush in our front yard and see that the rest of the five beers my wife took from our refrigerator are stashed there, hanging from a limb."

Genesis 22: 13-14   " Abraham looked up and there in a thicket he saw a ram caught by its horns. He went over and took the ram and sacrificed it as a burnt offering instead of his son. So Abraham called that place The Lord Will Provide....."

The PD-hypocrisy of the event is that your uPDw-claimed 'unsafe' beer went from Weary's known, monitored, normal and expected safe-storage of a refrigerator, to an unknown, unsafe outdoor place, easily found by a teenager(s) away from the watchful eye of their parents.  Imo, also the very 'taboo' concern you rightly were addressing in full and balanced control regarding your kids, just became oddly 'taboo' by your wife angrily and haphazardly discarding beer in a bush where teenagers can (and did) easily find it.

I would rightly and responsibly remove the beer from the landscape where kids (yours or others) have access and properly discard all (or her 3 only ) in contrast to your wife's improper disposal, and keep your 2 elsewhere, like a workplace or friends fridge?  I would also, as opinion-stated before, buy a new (since you found the original, then purposefully buy a different brand to differentiate from the first) 6 pack and silently and calmly put in your home fridge, where beer should properly be stored and treated normally.  If kids are not educated yet on alcohol and laws, i would fully educate on both. 

With your 15 year old, is this incident a good event, (one on one in private) to further teach your teen that husbands and wives (and any two people) can have vast differences on certain subjects and that its ok to agree to disagree and how each adult is rightly entitled to their own opinion?   

Also is this a teachable moment with your 15 yr old son, to discuss how alcohol is made, viewed, used and treated by societies, both historically in the world's societies and also of protective laws?  Also, possibly teach how it is a skilled craft to make well (fine wines, craft beers, carefully distilled and aged spirits) and can be respected as such and treated carefully and responsibly.  Lastly, since i know you are a man of faith, teach him how Biblically, alcohol is represented, both in balanced  use and well made vs cheaply made (wedding miracle and old vs new wine/wineskins), and contrasted in the Bible by abuse/drunkenness and not treated as taboo. 

SoT

[square]

I don't think half the beers belong to the wife.

Sure, it's a shared household. But Weary owns all of his own socks, deodorant, cell phone, etc. As does the wife own hers.

If the wife purchases a book, Weary does not get to rip half of it out.

Let's not overcomplicate the beer.

[SonofThunder]

I don't think half the beers belong to the wife.

Sure, it's a shared household. But Weary owns all of his own socks, deodorant, cell phone, etc. As does the wife own hers.

If the wife purchases a book, Weary does not get to rip half of it out.

Let's not overcomplicate the beer.

Square,

Im going to comment on your point made to Weary, since the suggestion was initially made by me, therefore your opinion is cast in my direction as well. 

I fully agree with you that Weary's beer is all his, just like all the items you mentioned.  I have personally experienced my uPDw and uPDw challenge me, both openly and also covertly manipulating 50% of an item, resource and decision, to lob the ball back in my court, as a strong challenge in circular arguing, with a playground-bully mentality.  In some past instances, with my uPDf, prior to my steady and eventual full removal of myself from legal connections with him over time, I was PD-challenged in very serious ways, which had severe implications that went way beyond me, because his legal control ability (by manipulating 50% which also disabled my 50%) affected others as well (employees, real estate investments, business monies, other organization members etc).

So now, when i can predict potential PD reactions to a particular subject, (even as benign as a six pack) I will take that 50% bully option out of the PD playbook in advance, by purposefully planning for it and also advance-expressing my ownership of my 50%, which also pre-acknowledges my understanding of their rights. Therefore, since Weary has experienced a 100% take of the remaining beer (after he now crossed Mrs Weary's previous alcohol threat line with one beer...) and her 100% attitude toward the home, he may still face a 50% challenge in his next steps from his uPDw as she struggles with her new loss of assumed full control. 

So, the idea of a preplanned 50% attitude with the beer is one less volley that Weary has to make.  It also uses a simple six-pack as a larger example tool, to reinforce Wearys previous statement to her, that he owns and has rights to 50% of the house/property, 50% of the way his children are raised and 100% of his decisions.

SoT

[escapingman]

SoT, I agree with Square but I see your point. Would it not be better if Weary got to the bank and got out money for the same value as the 6 beer and then gave to his wife? I have been toying with this idea before when my uNPDw complains about any purchase I do. If I buy whatever I want, I get the same amount out of the bank and give it to her to do whatever she want with. That would shoot down any arguments about where the money is spent. However, it doesn't look like Weary's wife is interested in who owns the beer or what they cost, all she seems to be interested is for Weary to not drink them.

Weary, can you buy yourself a fridge with a lock on and store your beer in it? This would be within your rights, if she breaks in to it and takes the beer document it.

Good luck Weary and I hope you can enjoy a beer or two in peace soon.

[SonofThunder]

SoT, I agree with Square but I see your point. Would it not be better if Weary got to the bank and got out money for the same value as the 6 beer and then gave to his wife? I have been toying with this idea before when my uNPDw complains about any purchase I do. If I buy whatever I want, I get the same amount out of the bank and give it to her to do whatever she want with. That would shoot down any arguments about where the money is spent. However, it doesn't look like Weary's wife is interested in who owns the beer or what they cost, all she seems to be interested is for Weary to not drink them.

Weary, can you buy yourself a fridge with a lock on and store your beer in it? This would be within your rights, if she breaks in to it and takes the beer document it.

Good luck Weary and I hope you can enjoy a beer or two in peace soon.

I agree with Square as well.  Again, im just throwing the 50% idea out, to combine with everyone else's thoughts, for Wearys consideration of his situation and his own decisions for himself.  I personally believe every situation and every person is different, therefore no hard rules, but simply opinions, shared experiences and a toolbox to apply as needed. 

Based on experience, i know that with my uPDw and uPDf, if there is any legal right or real controlling ability of a item, resource or organization, the PD's in my life will play that card when it best suits their their fight and maximizes my disadvantage.  Therefore i tend to think ahead and take the card out of play in advance.  But thats just me.

Escapingman, Square, Weary and others may believe its over-complication, unnecessary and/or even untrue for some items or resources, such as squares examples of socks, a book and the others square mentioned and I fully agree.  Now, lol in overthinking, those items are either singular in their nature or in pairs for a good reason and yes, it seems ridiculous to consider them in a 50% mentality in marriage. Although my dryer seems to think it owns one of my socks on occasion hahaha. Unless Weary's double-barreling the beer with one in each hand, a beer is singular in nature as well.   

But as you said, money is a different story. I have plenty of experience with money-rights being used in control by both and it seems the government believes that item/resource is worth its focus in a divorce as well, no matter who busted their ass and well-managed it over the years.  So escapingman, if you advance-apply the 50% mentality to money in a future purchase that you predict will be a fight, it would be interesting to read your results. 

Obviously this idea could be taken way too far by me, with just about any purchase or resource, and in a way, could be construed as 'caretaking' to avoid an argument.  So, i am very selective based on my perception of how large an issue can become.  In Weary's case, i do believe his uPDw threatened to divorce him over his choice to enjoy alcohol, so it would seem alcohol represents a very large control resource for Mrs Weary and so a six pack of beer represents a divorce threat.  If Weary really wanted to eliminate the beer altogether and boil the argument down to only control and the divorce threat, then just bring home 1 cold beer in-hand every day desired and pop the top on the way in, kick back and enjoy it.  Imo its not just a six pack of beer...its a six pack of adult rights in a 50% marriage and a 50% home and in 50% choices of how to raise children. 

But this is Weary's thread and I am simply a comrade on the same journey, sharing experiences alongside you all, so that we can glean or discard for our own decisions along the path.  I don't desire to hijack this thread over a six pack, and ive added my opinion plenty already, and will wait to read how Weary's story progresses. 

SoT

[WearyHusband]

After consideration, I chose to grab the remaining five beers that were hanging from the bush in our front yard. I reasoned that I needed to do what I thought was right and good. I didn't want beers hanging in a bush in our front yard, readily available to any teen passersby. I'm laughing a bit as I write this, because it seems so comical that beers are hanging from a bush in our front yard. The laughter helps!

I put the beers on a shelf in our garage, readily visible. That was two days ago. My uPDw has not said anything about them.

To clarify, my wife has not threatened divorce if I have beer in the house. She's merely threatened to take the kids and leave if I do. Which she then denied saying a few years ago in a joint therapy session with a counselor - followed by her following through on her threat when I bought beer during a family BBQ. (I had one beer)

A few months ago, she took one of our children out of town for a sports event. Since she was gone, I bought a six pack and enjoyed most of the beers over the weekend. I put the empty cans in the trash.

Upon her return, she woke up in the middle of the night and went through the garbage can in our yard to see if I had beer while she was gone. The next day, she packed her suitcase and told me and the kids she was leaving.  She told me, "You're either going to choose beer or me!"

At that time, I acquiesced and told her I wouldn't have any beer in the house, given the way it affects her. I'm sort of regretting that decision.

Now I'm choosing a different route. I still struggle with the thought, "Why would I choose to do anything that causes my uPDw fear?"  I want to be a good husband and act in love.

But then I reflect further and realize that the further and further I conform and placate and acquiesce to her demands in order to alleviate her fears, the MORE distance there is between us and the less I am experiencing freedom, intimacy, and joy. It's baffling. I'm learning to set boundaries, make healthy choices for myself, and consider my uPDw and try to "live with her in an understanding way" as best I can. It's not easy, and it's often confusing to find the place of wisdom and balance.

I'm also realizing that I'm at a place that I can't do this hamster wheel game much longer.

Thanks for all your support, advice, and encouragement, my Out of the FOG friends.
-WH

[SonofThunder]

Weary, thanks for the update and the clarification regarding the past and your wife's threats regarding physically leaving vs divorce.  Thanks also for the details on past events which helps to understand the situation better.  The bush (Busch?) beer on a very visible shelf will be interesting indeed. 

Im hoping over time your use of the toolbox opens up some better paths for you as you work on boundaries and the balance of care while not 'caretaking'.

SoT

[square]

A beer in the hand is worth five in the bush.

[SonofThunder]

A beer in the hand is worth five in the bush.

😂

[blunk]

A beer in the hand is worth five in the bush.

Oh my goodness, this made me laugh way too hard. LOL

[Boat Babe]

A beer in the hand is worth five in the bush.

Square wins the Internet today.

[WearyHusband]

square, you cracked me up. Out of the FOG comment of the year!

[JustKeepTrying]

square - snorting liquid from my nose at your comment - for the win

[DetachedAndEngaged]

I feel for you Weary. I haven't been exactly in your situation, but I'm familiar with the basic outlines.

It is painful to read this. To be perfectly honest, I'm sitting here thinking, "Dude, the only way out of this situation is to get out--get a divorce attorney and start planning, the sooner and faster the better."

However, I know it is a lot easier to say this from the outside, sitting on the other side of Valley of the Shadow of Personality Disorders. It took me a loooong time to figure this stuff out, remove unhealthy people from my life and set up boundaries to keep family PDs at bay. Obviously, it still impacts me, otherwise, why would I continue to check in on this board from time to time?

Just know that once you make the decision to see the world as it really is, stop excusing your wife's behavior and end feeling responsible for her PD-ness, it gets better.

You are clearly on that path. Good for you!

Couple of thoughts...

You and others have said your wife has a right to express her feelings. In the general abstract sense I agree; however, that right has its limits. Moreover, when one discusses intimate relationships in terms of someone's "rights" it is a sign that there are extremely serious problems at hand. The discourse of "rights" is political/legal, so to bring it into interpersonal discussions means the end of a relationship is potentially immanent.

Does she have a right to keep expressing to you her irrational feeling that you drinking a few beers is going to cause harm? No. She's made it perfectly clear. The only reason for her to keep repeating it is to emotionally batter you and provide a lame justification for public drama. Throwing a six pack into the bushes is adolescent immaturity and a lame attempt to shame you. (On that note, remember that people can only shame us if we feel and act shamed. Shamelessness is a great trait to cultivate in the face of PDs.)

An even better question: is her constant expression of this irrational fear and demonstration of controlling, vengeful and sadistic behavior healthy? No.

She needs to figure out a way to deal with her irrational fears. Figuring out how is not your responsibility. Nor is it your responsibility to constantly police your own behavior so that she doesn't react the way she does. As you have pointed out, she has the ability to act very differently in her relationships outside of your family dynamic. By getting the support you provide by remaining in the marriage, she's enabled to maintain that bifurcated existence.

While I understand the impulse behind the complicated discussions here about how somehow in principle she's has a right to half the beers you buy and marking some as hers, etc., etc., from my perspective that seems like a form of JADE without the A(rguing)-- JXDE, if you will. I've been there and done that. I eventually decided it was just me holding myself to an impossibly high standard in a vain attempt to be reasonable with people who aren't reasonable.

One of the most helpful things a friend said to me when I was struggling with a live-in Dx-bi-polar and uBPD girlfriend was "You don't always have to be the bigger person." Remember, you don't always have to play the nice guy. Obviously, you don't want to fly off the handle, especially since kids and thus a custody battle are likely in your future (assuming you decide to end this nightmare), but it is fine to do things she doesn't like.

Finally, as someone who was raised in a very Christian family where "turn the other cheek" was a constant message that taught me to tolerate abuse, let me say that distancing yourself from abusers is the only way to find peace, both inner and outer.

Hang in there, man! I can see the wheels shifting in your head and your spine getting stronger.

[square]

I just meant that the expectation that she speak for her husband's feelings is unfair.

Or is it? My husband frequently tells me that on the rare occasion I crack and express something - when he has me cornered and is yelling at me - that it's "all about you." But I never hear him speak on my behalf.

It seems to me a discussion is two people expressing their points of view and trying to come to common ground. Is it a fair point to say that someone expressing their point of view is automatically wrong because they expressed their own position and not someone else's?