Killing the hope that they'll change?

[MarlenaEve]

Hi guys.

I was doing some journaling and realized that, unfortunately (so ashamed to admit) I still want my NM to change. Or my NF to snap out of it and leave NM so we can have a relationship. (NF is easier to handle but he has so many 'fleas' on him)
It's really sad and I truly want to let this wish go. But I don't know how to do it.

I posted earlier about the loneliness and sadness after NC and this is what scares me the most. Going NC once led to a really long period of loneliness (had toxic friends too so I needed to cut those out) where I had no one to meet who could be comforting and understanding.
SO, perhaps I'm keeping the hope alive to avoid dealing with that emptiness and loneliness of being without a family and without people to love.

How did you let go of hope? What did you do for this? Did you kill your hope by going NC and did that help?

[DM178]

Hi MarlanaEve;

I think your post is really insightful...you fully realize that you have a desire for your NM and NF to change..and that this may be linked to you avoiding going thru future loneliness...give yourself major credit for both of these insights, because that is really significant!

I too wish my UBPDM's behavior would change..I know I am really struggling with wishing this, when she does something (that is fairly predictable) and I allow it to upset me and I don't do anything with being upset.  Or I react to her behavior in an unhealthy way.

I am still working on acknowledging the behavior that is coming at me from her,  and then realizing I cannot change it...and then allow all of those emotions to subside...which they do....I am also working on not reacting to the behavior....if I don't react, it allows me to choose other types of healthier responses.

It's a tough journey, and you are on your way with your invaluable personal insights and vulnerability to your own emotions. Wishing you safety, health and peace on your journey!

[Boat Babe]

That sounds really painful and heavy MarlenaEve and we get it. These are feelings you've always had; the longing for parental love and acceptance and validation. It's so hard to let that go  perhaps some inner child work would help. I remember a breakthrough in therapy many years ago. After groping in the dark for months I was able to follow a feeling to a memory, a particularly poignant one. I saw/felt myself as a very young little girl, sitting on her bed listening to her violent father rage at her mother. She was very distressed and alone. My therapist suggested I comfort her, as I would any distressed child now that I'm an adult. I held her and told her it was gonna be ok and that she wasn't alone anymore.  I was able to generate feelings of love for her, which I've never been able to do for my contemporary self (!) It was a very healing moment. When I remember to do this work, it really helps me. I can access her very easily, now that I know she is there 😊

The other healing modality you might try is Mindful Self Compassion as taught by Dr Kristin Neff. Very powerful, very simple and backed by rigorous research and data analysis (zero woo)

Take care ❤️

[JustKat]

Marlena, I really understand these feelings. It's not easy. In my case, letting go of hope has been different for each family member. I knew decades ago that my NPDmother would never change and was able to give up hope rather easily, but I still haven't been able to give up hope on my enFather, even though I know in my heart that he'll never change. I'd say I've let go of 99% of hope, but still have that 1% telling me that maybe he'll realize he was sucked in by a narcissist, that he hurt his children badly, that he'll apologize. It's hard to let go of all hope because we're human, and no matter how old we get we never stop needing at least one parent to love us.

I have two siblings that I never expected to be NC with. They were turned against me in a smear campaign when I went NC with my mother. I was able to give up hope very quickly with my GC sister, who's become a narcissistic monster just like my mother. I still have hope of reconnecting with my brother one day. It's not likely to happen, but I think it's okay to have a small amount of hope.

Please don't feel ashamed to admit that you still want your parents to change. Of course you do. It's extremely difficult to watch other people experiencing the kind of life that we never got to have, with parents who love them, hug them, celebrate their life achievements. There's no shame in wanting that for ourselves. 

[blues_cruise]

Well for me, when the penny finally dropped that this was as good as I would ever get and that my father's behaviour would never improve, I had a really tough few months where the floodgates opened and so many traumatic memories which I had suppressed suddenly came to the fore all at once. I think I had denied myself to feel anything negative in order to keep my hope of a close relationship with him alive, however it was neither sustainable nor authentic and the sheer distress I was feeling at suddenly being confronted with all the trauma I didn't realise I even had was overwhelming. I was 27 and had no idea who I really was, other than a trained people pleaser who attracted the type of people who would take advantage of that. From somewhere came a spark of anger over this (he had trained me to be this way!! ) which eventually grew and became more difficult to ignore. My own father hated the real me and when I reflected on all the past (and ongoing, if I had allowed it) abuse I could see that directing any further hope towards him was futile, because the older I got the more I truly, desperately wanted to learn who I really was and to learn assertiveness, which he would never stand for. I went through the motions and tried putting in boundaries to try to salvage something from the 'relationship' (I struggle to call it that frankly, it was based on nothing but my complete subservience and what I could do for him) before no contact and it was his instant ridicule and trashing of these which really killed any hope of change.

I think the spark of anger was my true self emerging for the first time. Hope is a precious thing and I've chosen to redirect it towards my ongoing development and a better quality of life and relationships, rather than wastefully investing it in someone who has proven time and time again to be manipulative and self-centred. This has become so much easier as the years have gone by and I've gained better clarity about the origins of personality disorders and how near impossible it is for someone with suspected NPD to even acknowledge that they have a problem, yet alone get treated for it. Not once over the last 4.5 years has my father ever shown any remorse or acknowledgement that his behaviour has caused this situation, in fact all he's done is play silly mind games and make petty digs. After so much time for him to self-reflect with no positive indication that he'll change and a steady continuation of the type of behaviour that prompted this ultimate boundary, I'm left in no doubt about who he truly is, what his true motives are and the reality of the situation.

Your feelings are entirely natural but regardless of what I've said above, I know how hard this is to come to terms with.  No contact is really lonely and sad because no-one wants to lose that hope of a healthy parent/adult child relationship. Although I've accepted that my father can't provide this, I still get angry and sad that it has to be this way and feel a lot of resentment that things can't just be straightforward and ordinary. I don't think grieving over this is something you can rush or shrug off, it's one of those really difficult things that you have to be gentle with yourself about and to feel through. I've found it really helpful to read widely about cluster B personality disorders because coming at it from a logical, psychological perspective helps enforce the fact that NPD in particular is a serious disorder which is extremely difficult to treat and that without psychological intervention (plus acknowledgement from your parent that they even have a problem in the first place) it's highly unlikely that they will change.

[MarlenaEve]

Boat babe,

thank you for the resources. I'll check them out. Looking forward, too.

Just Kathy, sorry about your siblings being turned against you. But good that you let go of hope, in most cases regarding your parents. My siblings have already been turned against me (even in contact!!)-one brother hates me is jealous of me (he told me so), the other is upset that I'm not fulfilling my caretaker role regarding my mother. I think we were never meant to have a relationship, somehow I am at peace with that.
Glad you're not in touch with your golden child sister( I know how it feels to be in touch).

[MarlenaEve]

DM178-thank you for the validation. It is a great insight. Idk why adult children of PDs minimize their qualities and are so harsh with themselves. Thanks. Not reacting to them is a great idea. It's something I've learned, too.

Blues cruise: thanks for your insight. I probably should read more about Cluster B personalities. What bothers me sometimes is finding some therapists online who're touting the idea that narcissists can change through therapy. I don't believe that. It's definitely not the case for malignant narcissists.

I watched Jerry Wise and he said, by changing the family system through tough boundaries, going NC, and/or becoming healed (or self-differentiated) we are changing the entire family tree. However, our parents may not be there to experience the change. It's possible that our children or our children's children may experience a narcissistic-free family tree/environment. So, as you see, it takes generations to cut the toxicity that narcissistic abuse brings.

[Hazy111]

DM178-thank you for the validation. It is a great insight. Idk why adult children of PDs minimize their qualities and are so harsh with themselves. Thanks. Not reacting to them is a great idea. It's something I've learned, too.

Blues cruise: thanks for your insight. I probably should read more about Cluster B personalities. What bothers me sometimes is finding some therapists online who're touting the idea that narcissists can change through therapy. I don't believe that. It's definitely not the case for malignant narcissists.

I watched Jerry Wise and he said, by changing the family system through tough boundaries, going NC, and/or becoming healed (or self-differentiated) we are changing the entire family tree. However, our parents may not be there to experience the change. It's possible that our children or our children's children may experience a narcissistic-free family tree/environment. So, as you see, it takes generations to cut the toxicity that narcissistic abuse brings.

Thats really interesting and ties in with what ive read elsewhere. It takes one member of the family to cut the trauma from passing from one generation to the next. But if they have beneficial long term  therapy and support and a determination to not make the mistakes their parents made. This is very difficult as the trauma bond is strong ( marrying similar PD personalities) and the person themselves may well be PD themselves but no longer in DENIAL. It takes enormous courage and perseverance.

[Hazy111]

I agree that malignant narcissists or sociopaths/psychopath's  are beyond help as regards therapy. Then again ive never known a narcissist who isnt malignant in his dealings with at  least one person in their life.

Therapy also needs to start as early as possible in life. Humans become more resistant to change the older they get.

[Adria]

Hi MarlenaEve.

Please don't be hard on yourself for hoping.  That is what loving caring people do. We hope for a better day in all situations in life.  That is human.  I am NC almost 30 years.  Yes, it does feel lonely. My sibling were turned against me, my extended family turned against me.  I've had to except that, but it doesn't mean I like it.  It doesn't mean I still don't hope for a better day or for things to change.  Deep down, I understand that they probably won't change, but my heart still holds onto a little hope that they will, probably until my narc father has passed away.

I think to some degree, that little lost child in us wants the parental love and protection we never got. The only difference now is, that we've had to be so strong for so long that we can learn to give that to ourselves. We also know how to be alone and survive. So, I think, having hope is only natural, but we also now know that if we never get what we want from our family, they have made us strong and we can take care of ourselves, something maybe a lot of people never learn until they are faced with a spouse or family member dying in their old age and are left reeling. So the upside is knowing all my life that I can survive and thrive on my own, and that has given me much peace and strength. I wish you peace and strength. Hugs, Adria

[Blueberry Pancakes]

MarlenaEve, I think you have gotten great insights from those who have replied already. I just also wanted to add that one thing that helps me is acceptance. Accepting hurtful behaviors happened. Accepting some people are not who we want or need them to be. Maybe even accepting that the way you feel about it is alright.           
         
I go through times where I find it so easy to daydream that I will get a call, letter, or email where someone in my FOO acknowledges their behaviors, and we have resolution. I think it is common, so please do not be hard on yourself. You mention being NC and realizing dysfunctional friendships you had to end as well. I understand that too. I sometimes think when we become aware of these dynamics, we can realize what we have tolerated not only in our FOO but with others. It is alright to set boundaries, then go about pursuing the things that make you feel good about who you are as a person. Take care of you.

[Starboard Song]

Hi guys.

I was doing some journaling and realized that, unfortunately (so ashamed to admit) I still want my NM to change. Or my NF to snap out of it and leave NM so we can have a relationship. (NF is easier to handle but he has so many 'fleas' on him)

How did you let go of hope? What did you do for this? Did you kill your hope by going NC and did that help?

When we lose a loved one early, say to a car accident, there is no long-term battle to get them back. I have a dear friend who accepted her status as a widow within weeks of losing her husband. The grief is real, but that desperate phase of denial ended quickly. Makes sense, right? We know there is no reversing death.

But when we face these terrible traumas with personality disordered people, it is different. Any ordinary argument can be won if the facts are on our side. It is maddening that we can't get through to someone. I'd do after-action reviews and think, "I shouldn't have said ________, because that made him think _____." Or I'd chastise myself for not following up on a point on which I was plainly right and from which he had shrank. Or I regretted losing my temper at some point, or giving in, or getting flustered. If only. If only. If only.

Three strategies worked for me.

One is analogy to other relationships: in a romantic relationship you would never put up with such insanity. In a romantic relationship, if the other party is crazy-making, refuses to abide by ordinary rules of etiquette and rationality, we make a decision: they are unfit targets for our love and we move on. I realized that, while it is certainly a more complicated matter with family, it was past time for me to accept that these people were unfit targets for my energy.

The other is by perspective. I know so many people who are divorced that it is hard to remember what an enormous thing it is to marry someone and then later to not be married. It is huge! And it is all over the place! I know people who've lost loves or family members to cancer, to heart disease, to car accidents. These people had to battle to support people in poor health and now they are gone. Yet they persist! They love again. They keep their hobbies. They continue to enjoy life. I tell myself: it is disrespectful of folks enduring such loss to not accept the truth that these people make me unhappy as they are, and so I need to move on and resume a happy life in peace.

Either way, the common theme is this: you are suffering a real loss, and you have suffered it already.

[Danden]

I think this can be bound up with the idea and feeling that we want to help them, love them, heal them.  After all that was the dynamic we had with them as children.  When we experienced love in that disordered context, we formed our own emotional response to that.  So that contributes to the longing and hope for a healed relationship and the with the desire to heal the disordered person.   

I have come to see that people live in different spiritual planes in life.  Apart from obviously disordered people, there are people who are living on a lower level than others.  Some people seek healing, change and growth and achieve it.  Others operate at a lower level and stay there.  They do not attain insights for self-improvement or gain spiritual maturity with age.  For example, there are people who see the world as "dog eat dog" and have no compunction with taking advantage of someone else, because for them, that is "just the way the world is"  and it is all ok as along as it is legal or, if it is illegal, it is ok if they don't get caught.  They even seek out these opportunities.  Think of the companies behind the telemarketers selling dubious financial products that put people in debt.  Or the government programs and universities that created the student loan debt crisis.  What is behind this?  People are doing something that they gain advantage from without providing value to others.  At least they don't provide the value the are selling.  They are selfishly focusing on their own needs.  It is a form of snake oil.  Other people have integrity and would not do a bad thing even if they have the opportunity to do so and would gain advantage from it.  They know it is wrong and they have too much compassion and regard for others to do that.  Instead they seek out a way to make money (cause everybody needs that), but they are also at the same time looking for a way to provide a valuable service, and to truly and honestly serve their customer.  I think the same principles apply on an emotional level, in personal relationships.  Some people will selfishly seek out their own advantage and manipulate every situation, while others will approach the relationship with emotional honesty, self-reflection and conscientiously.

So, as a person on the path to healing, you are seeking a higher spiritual plane.  You long for a more positive and rewarding relationship, which is not possible.  You may have to realize that, in a sense, you have left them behind, and deal with your own feelings at being ahead of them/better than them/more at peace and of not being able to help them.

[DM178]

Wow, so many wonderful insights and resources have been shared here..MarlanaEve, thank you for initiating this post, and for seeking out support and guidance - it's helped me so much.

Acceptance of the BPD individuals in our lives....so very hard and so very sad to do....I think for me it has come in bits and pieces..and it has felt at times like one step back, two steps forward, 5 steps back and one forward at times....as Danden and others said YOU are on a different path and one that you are compelling forward with your search for truth, honesty and love...

Love, love, love the insight, wisdom and support of this amazingly wise and kind community! Thank you again MarlanEve and to all who shared. Stay safe and healthy!

[JustKat]

What bothers me sometimes is finding some therapists online who're touting the idea that narcissists can change through therapy. I don't believe that. It's definitely not the case for malignant narcissists.

I've had therapists tell me that before, and to me, it's an indicator that the therapist doesn't have sufficient knowledge of the disorder. Narcissists can't change. They believe that they're perfect and everyone else has a problem. I doubt you could even get one to agree to seeing someone.

I always kept it a secret from my family that I was seeing a therapist because I knew my mother would have been delighted. She made fun of people who were in therapy and said they were all mentally ill "sickos." No amount of therapy could have helped my mother. Whenever I've been told that, I look for a new therapist.

[Cat of the Canals]

Even when I think I've dropped the rope of hope, it still creeps up sometimes. I've learned to accept that as something that is part of the process. I'm getting better and better at reminding myself to focus on what is, not what could be. I think this especially applies to the idea of a PD changing with therapy. That is a could be scenario. Until it becomes a reality, I need not waste much time thinking about it. In PDmom's case, I don't think she'd even entertain the idea of therapy, so it ends up being a very distant, almost make-believe "could be" that again warrants very little consideration.

I will say that over time, my general thoughts on this have shifted from the "maybe if I did X, PDmom will change" to "my boundaries are X until PDmom has shown she has changed" knowing that it's quite likely she will never change.

[Blueberry Pancakes]

Apart from obviously disordered people, there are people who are living on a lower level than others.  Some people seek healing, change and growth and achieve it.  Others operate at a lower level and stay there.  They do not attain insights for self-improvement or gain spiritual maturity with age.  For example, there are people who see the world as "dog eat dog" and have no compunction with taking advantage of someone else, because for them, that is "just the way the world is"  and it is all ok as along as it is legal or, if it is illegal, it is ok if they don't get caught.  They even seek out these opportunities.... You are on a path to healing, you are seeking a higher spiritual plane.  You long for a more positive and rewarding relationship, which is not possible.  You may have to realize that, in a sense, you have left them behind, and deal with your own feelings at being ahead of them/better than them/more at peace and of not being able to help them.

So many great replies to this question. This from Danden spoke right to my heart. This is exactly the way I see my FOO.

[MarlenaEve]

thanks to everyone who replied here! it took me a while to read it.

Danden-your post, wow! What you say makes sense. In a way, yes, I have chosen the good, higher path and the more difficult path in life, true. Working hard and providing value but also, working at bonding with others in healthy ways.

That is WHY I can't for the life of me understand why, as you said so, the people in our FOO ONLY look to take advantage of us, they are in this relationship to gain something, to use us long-term.

I can give an example: usually, when my FOO cooks (they're foodies so they often cook elaborate meals) they forget to buy x or y ingredient. So they ask me to go out and fetch it for them. I don't mind, I like helping out. BUT, it happened one time when I was under the weather and needed X supplement (for an anti-flu drink) from the store, I asked my mother to go and fetch and she refused it. Why? It was cold outside and she couldn't go that far to the store. Sooo, I had to go on my own, tired and unwell through the cold weather, and fetch the damn thing. That's when I realized they only want me in contact with them to use me. That's it.

So what Danden said is true. These people in our FOO have chosen that path, the path of abusing or using others-and they're not much different from those companies that provide little to no value but ask for a lot of money in return.

I really think that, narcissists will never un-do themselves and become healthier. If they got used to using us, they'll continue to walk this path. It's what they know to do best. I don't think they know HOW to get love from others without forcing the love from them or manipulating them into staying in a relationship with them. And, I kind of understand that. It's screwed up but I see that they don't wanna learn new ways of operating in life and abuse is what they know best.

[Boat Babe]

That's why people walk away, eventually. It's so very sad.

[JustKat]

It's screwed up but I see that they don't wanna learn new ways of operating in life and abuse is what they know best.

Not only that, but they always get away with it. When we walk away they launch a smear campaign that keeps everyone else in their corner, so again, they've gotten away with it. People need an incentive to change, and they don't have one.