Connecting the dots on something

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11JB68

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Connecting the dots on something
« on: October 12, 2021, 11:47:20 PM »
I feel like I connected the dots on something yesterday.
And now I'm having trouble verbalizing it.
Updh has always tried to make me feel that I'm being selfish or materialistic or stupid or irresponsible or demanding etc etc.... For asking for things... Often he's asked me "do you WANT it or do you Need it"?
To the point that I avoid asking.
Yet, stuff he "needs", always important and needed... And urgent.
I have more thoughts on this but for some reason I've lost my train of thought here..
Also should mention that.... Why do I have to "ask" anyway... He mostly tells.


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Call Me Cordelia

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Re: Connecting the dots on something
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2021, 11:52:52 PM »
I relate to that feeling. But you know what? It's 100% okay to ask for something that you just want vs. need. Imagine. A husband being generous to his wife. You. Huh.

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tragedy or hope

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Re: Connecting the dots on something
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2021, 10:52:17 AM »
Do we need to ask is a good question. This week I did not. I spent approx.
$600 on curtains and curtain rods for a screen room we pretty much have said we prefer none.

Since installing a TV... It is so bright during the day the TV is useless.
Winter brings cold and drafts, so I made my own decision. He tells me all the time he does not care about decorating things.

I ordered them, and at the right happy time told him matter of factly. We have the money and i may decide I don't like the idea, but, I have contemplated it for a long time and the TV thing sealed the deal.

He comes home with stuff... he bought an ABC or whatever because he needs it. I was feeling like a little girl... ."Daddy, can I please have..." I decided to jump into the abyss over something he doesn't care about anyway.

Sometimes, we have invisible handcuffs we have voluntarily placed our wrists because they are so good at mind control. Even if he got mad, because he does not know how to calmly disagree, I felt I wanted to make the decision on my own.

It was okay, I expect upon installation there will be some crankiness, but knowing this ahead of time is better than waiting for him to make MY decision.

I do understand also, less is more for most hard working men, as they do not see the nesting thing like women do. But, we are both important in a home and a marriage, not 50-50 but 100-100.  My desires matter.
"When people show you who they are, believe them."
~Maya Angelou

Believe it the first time, or you will spend the rest of your life in disbelief of what they can/will do; to you. T/H

Family systems are like spider webs. It takes years to get untangled from them.  T/H

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square

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Re: Connecting the dots on something
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2021, 01:49:29 PM »
11jb, I guess that some of it is that he has crowned himself the sole arbitrator of what is wanted, needed, reasonable, etc.

Should be that two partners get an equitable say, however that may look. But he gets to decide that his stuff is important AND that yours is frivolous. And judge and bully you for it.

Itís inherently unequal. Either you both get to spend X without consulting each other, or you both have to justify every dollar. Furthermore, either you both are generous and allow that the other has wants and needs that are not totally shared by the other, or neither of you can spend a dime unless both are totally enthused by the idea.

So him being treated the same as you are means if he gets a hole in his sock heíll just have to live with it because itís not bothering your feet any.

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11JB68

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Re: Connecting the dots on something
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2021, 12:03:05 AM »
Thanks all for your comments and I've remembered the rest of my thoughts on this.
For years he has 'trained' me too feel guilty about asking for anything.
I've become afraid to ask or at least dealing with his reaction is enough of a negative that I avoid it.
Yet somehow he has been so convincing that his stuff is important and necessary and.... Trained me to feel just as guilty if I don't see the value in his wants/needs...

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tragedy or hope

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Re: Connecting the dots on something
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2021, 10:52:59 AM »
11JB68,
You are almost there. Recognition is the biggest part of the puzzle. If we don't see it we can't change our behavior. Congratulations. Your next decision or reaction can be based on what you know to be true for you, not him.

You get to have truth in your life that is all about you too. That's where partnership comes in. He can ignore it, but it is still true for you.

Maybe it's in the language we use. I want, I need... can turn into "budget the money for....." "this is something I plan on doing, set aside the funds." Or whatever you can muster up to say without "asking" approval of a "father figure."
Partnership is not the same as parent to child. I know this from my experience with unpdh. He will "parent" me if I do not object or change my words to behave as an adult. That part is on me. Sometimes they control with unspoken threat because of past behavior. They count on the fear being long-lasting because it changes OUR behavior.

Fear among other things is"false evidence appearing real." This is their hope.

 He may go crazy at the thought of you being a whole person, but it is okay to say whatever you need to say. His demeanor is his problem not yours.

He may get riled, but you are getting your voice. That may be more meaningful than keeping the peace.

 It's like taking a toy away from a child. He will kick and scream and cry and beg... then eventually he's off playing with something else, but it won't be the thing you took away that belonged to you anyway.

Take courage.



"When people show you who they are, believe them."
~Maya Angelou

Believe it the first time, or you will spend the rest of your life in disbelief of what they can/will do; to you. T/H

Family systems are like spider webs. It takes years to get untangled from them.  T/H

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Hazy111

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Re: Connecting the dots on something
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2021, 01:02:00 PM »
The narcissist needs to dominate and control his significant others. They cant be trusted in his world (paranoid) . They may also spend "his" money denuding him over one of his narc supplies.  His wealth. They may also impact on what he wants to spend on , whatever makes HIM happy.

Self esteem is derived  from without not within. Status, wealth, possessions (family comes under possessions , pretty wife , "successful children", which also bring him more supply (envy admiration of others)) fame, etc

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11JB68

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Re: Connecting the dots on something
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2021, 02:47:44 PM »
Thanks for the continued feedback.
It is so frustrating - it's not all money related but a lot is. I make more. I'm not spending "his" money.
I've tried being more 'adult' with this. e.g. maybe 2 years ago (pre-covid) I stated to him that I needed addl x amt per month to get my hair cut. You'd think I was asking for $1000. I know many women who spend way more on beauty services per month. (I'm not coloring, perming, straightening, getting nails done etc, Just wash/cut/blowdry). He 'agreed' to it. That weekend I went to buy HIS cigarettes and they had gone up in price - which essentially reduced the amt of $$ I woudl have left each month for my haircut. Then something came up where he was angry with me and he 'threatened' to "take away" his 'permission' for my Haircut $$. 
At a later date I stated (I am stating, not asking) that I needed an increase in my weekly 'allowance', due to inflation/higher cost of household items/groceries/cigarettes/etc. He was SO stressed about it. Agreed, but acted really put out etc. Also insisted that I get x amt from DS per week to help out (it's fine, DS is an adult and lots of adult kids pay rent, etc but really NOT necessary)
My 'allowance' has NOT kept up with inflation AT ALL and he seems unable/unwilling to understand/acknowledge this.
We spent a bunch of $$ over the summer getting the house/yard ready for a party in August. Because HE was concerned about how things would look to guests. HE insisted on a new couch etc.
NOW he is suddenly concerned about $$/bank account balances etc after we paid for all of that!
I got my haircut yesterday and the price went up $3. It concerned me. It shouldn't.
I saw on the news this am that all things are costing more - gas, groceries, something was up 12% etc. This caused me stress. It shouldn't.
It's not just $$ though. It's things like how we do things, what we do in our free time, etc etc. His stuff is 'need' my stuff is 'want'/unnecessary
Sorry - now I'm just ranting about the same old stuff


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square

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Re: Connecting the dots on something
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2021, 03:28:43 PM »
My H and I donít have conflicts about money - he leaves all the management to me and neither if us are spendy (GRATEFUL for both).

But I can really identify nonetheless with the stress and anxiety about how HE will react to normal and trivial things.

PDs manage to put themselves at the forefront of our minds, with FOG. For me, Fear of him getting angry.

I can identify with seeing a lousy $3 increase in haircut and immediately thinking, how can I solve this with H, how will he react? Like when DD goes to the doctor and gets a prescription, my mind should only be thinking ďI hope the rx solves the issueĒ but Iím thinking ďis he going to blow up about having to run a 5 minute errand for the health of his daughter?Ē

Also, on haircuts themselves, that has been a source of strain for years. If a prescription run is a problem, why would I ask for a ride to the salon? So he can use it against me as evidence that I am constantly running him around nonstop?

Now my mom takes me to the salon. She lives 1000 iles away. Twice a year I visit her and she takes me a few days after I arrive. My salon is across the country.

Before settling on that, I once went nearly 2 years without going to the hairdresser. In fact, my hair style is based on my difficuty - grew out bangs and such. (Thankfully itís a texture that gets away with such poor maintenance).

We are in ridiculous situations. Our husbands are incredibly selfish. They feel like good husbands to wives to have to do such acrobatics for low end hair cuts?

They are willing - very much willing! - to put such stress on us for such minor paybacks as a few extra bucks toward their cigarettes or one less minor errand to run?

Btw when he says he might rescind your haircut allowance Iíd say, ďinteresting, I was thinking of rescinding your cigarette allowance.Ē

I also assume that the topic of you making more money is a nuclear button but if pushed hard enough Iíd hammer it.

My H has me afraid of him and thereís hardly anything heís afraid of me onÖ but thereís a couple. Iím betting itís the same in your house.

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square

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Re: Connecting the dots on something
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2021, 03:31:01 PM »
Oh, also, you do realize that when the price of cigs goes up, itís him that has to beg to you, right?

Heís got you automatically covering his crap with your money. NO.

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11JB68

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Re: Connecting the dots on something
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2021, 11:46:27 PM »
Square...
Haircuts, he is judgemental of mine and Ds. Mine was too short in his opinion and he was, IMO verbally abusive about it. Ds grew his long and that became a battle.
My making more is an issue, he says it's emasculating, yet he's unwilling to do what's necessary to make more.
I cannot (or don't feel I can/scared/etc) make snarky comments to him about money or cost of his cigs etc

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square

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Re: Connecting the dots on something
« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2021, 01:39:23 AM »
I hear ya.

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Mary

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Re: Connecting the dots on something
« Reply #12 on: October 17, 2021, 02:25:36 AM »
I have stopped asking permission for things mostly. Instead, I'll say that I'm planning to do x. Or I'm thinking about doing y. Then if he gives input, I'm not taking it as a mandate.

Also, when he spends x amount of $ frivolously without my input, I feel like I can spend some without discussing it. I've started doing this way more, especially in the area of saving. Sometimes I don't share at all what I'm doing. I'm not doing things that will hurt us. If he knows there's money sitting somewhere, it's as good as spent. So if I want to save, I have to do it under the radar.

Mary

For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called. (Isaiah 54:5)

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11JB68

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Re: Connecting the dots on something
« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2021, 04:18:39 PM »
And sometimes it has to do with who he is looking to impress.
Years ago a subordinate at his work got married. I clearly remember him telling me we should be generous with the gift as he was her boss
My employee is getting married and he had a minor fit over what I wanted to give her.
This after a full summer of him throwing money around to impress our party guests and friends, all the while stating that we are doing well... But now he's worried about money.
All arbitrary.

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Lauren17

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Re: Connecting the dots on something
« Reply #14 on: October 18, 2021, 03:22:03 AM »
There are so many similarities to my experience here, Iím not sure where to start.
As I started coming OOTF, I stopped asking for permission to spend money depending on the amount. I based it on what amount I would like to be consulted on. $20 for lunch with a friend? No need to discuss. $5,000 for new furniture? Yes, discuss.
For expenditures in between, I found that ďIím going to replace the dryer. It will be $400. Shall I put on on the credit card?Ē was the best approach. Not asking.
Wants and needs. Over the years, Iíve been told multiple times that I donít need something. Iíve also been told I donít want it.  :no:
Stbxh always managed the finances. I had little to no insight. ďWe canít afford thatĒ was an answer I accepted often. Ive recently found out the vast majority of the time, that was a flat out lie.
This is all subtle, but very wrong.
Iíve cried a thousand rivers. And now Iím swimming for the shoreĒ (adapted from Iíll be there for you)

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Hazy111

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Re: Connecting the dots on something
« Reply #15 on: October 18, 2021, 11:38:51 AM »
All arbitrary.

The thing is it isnt .  Its all about his feelings.  He can justify  expenditure by the wife on herself as there may be a function coming up for example and hes worried about what others may think of her and therefore  him (As she is an extension of him).  At home where theres noboby to impress,  his immediate needs to take over.

My father spent his entire married life keeping a running account ( books carefully filled in)  of the family expenditure which was then compared to the bank statements. Every receipt had to be kept. My mother barely spent a £ on herself.   Looking back this was a none to subtle reminder to my mother not to spend too much and keep within her "budget" . Control. This of course never applied to him.  When she died, he stopped it.  I asked him why he did it in the first place when the bank would send statements.  "Well she would never have done it "   :stars:  He couldnt give me an explanation why when she had died he stopped doing it.

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1footouttadefog

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Re: Connecting the dots on something
« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2021, 11:23:52 AM »
I think he asks this question be aise he knows it's an issue for youit steals your joy.

You can change that and the qiestion will go away.  It will be replaced with another tactic. 

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escapingman

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Re: Connecting the dots on something
« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2021, 12:51:10 PM »
Hazy: My wife keeps every receipt and have to match every single one against the credit card statements. If she is missing a a receipt for a bottle of milk she will run round the house searching for it. If she doesn't have it her first suspicion is that the store has charged her for something that was never bought. She says that's the only reason but it is a massive control issue to make sure she sees every little think I spend on, it makes it really uncomfortable as she very often comments on what and why things was bought and why I didn't go the other shop 5 miles down the road as they would have had the same item but 50 pence cheaper (never mind the petrol to go there instead). I stopped the statements coming through and now print her part of them and cut mine off, she isn't happy but I don't care.

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Simon

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Re: Connecting the dots on something
« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2021, 01:08:22 PM »
Sounds very familiar to one of my Brother-in-laws.
He will give my Sister a few hundred quid for her birthday (I don't think he's ever bothered to get her a present himself), and then she will wait for a while and think about what to buy herself.
When she decides, sometimes weeks or months later, he will have the final say on whether she's allowed to buy it.
I've asked her why the hell she lets him dictate what she can spend "her" money on, and her answer is always "Well, he DID give me the money, so..."  :stars:

And as some have already said, it's not about the money, it's about control.

Another time, she was having health problems with her stomach, and being a Vegan, I suggested Almond Milk or Soya Milk instead of dairy, because of how bad dairy is for you, and after she mentioned it to her doctor and he agreed that it was a good idea, she phoned me and told me she was going to give it a go.
I gave her a list of the different milks, and suggested that she go to Tesco and get one of each and find one she liked, and then commit to giving it a go for a month and see if it helps her stomach.

Fast forward a couple of days, I go and visit her, and she's in the kitchen making a cuppa and I'm sat in the living room where he is sat watching the TV.
I shout out to her "Are you trying your new milk in your tea?", and as she walks in with her tea, she says "No, I didn't get any after.", and before she's even finished saying it, he chirps in with "No. We won't be trying that!".
I look at him and then back at her and say something like "But even your doctor said it was a good idea, and as well as being healthier, it might sort out your pain.".
Again, he chirped in with "No. We won't be trying any of that nonsense!".
I looked at her, and she said nothing.

CONTROL!
Any man or woman worth their salt would try anything to ease the pain of their partner (notice I didn't use the term "loved one").

Of course, on top of that, when the doctor tells him what he needs to help him, it's all hands on deck, and "OK everyone, this is how we're doing things from now on!".
I wish she would stand up for herself.
If only she had an ounce of the stubbornness that I have.
But unfortunately she has no boundaries at all, and every decision is his.

And more specific to the original post, he often uses the phrase "Do we really need it?".
His laptop broke last year, and he ran out and got it fixed the same day! (he's the only one of his family allowed to use it, and he's on it all the time).
Hmmm. :roll:
« Last Edit: October 19, 2021, 01:11:59 PM by Simon »

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escapingman

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Re: Connecting the dots on something
« Reply #19 on: October 20, 2021, 07:22:21 PM »
Hazy: You might be right, or you might be wrong regarding if dairy is good or bad. I don't know. But the story from Simon is about a PD and much more important than the diary. I have had very similar ones with my wife (stbx), I suddenly developed an allergy to her perfume, I went like a beetroot when she put it on. Was I the victim of this? No, she first refused to stop using it and when she eventually did I was supposed to feel sorry for her for not being able to use it.