Out of body experience

[escapingman]

Thanks hhaw, very good advice as always. You people on here really are gold dust and even though I don't know you you are my to to people in this. I have no one else to talk to, at least no one who fully understand this. Stbx have gone out on here own, so had a casual chat with GC, all she is trying to do is telling me to be nice to stbx and question me what she has done. Tried calmly to tell her that what mum has done is between me and her and not something she should be involved in, then she started shouting at me that I don't know what stbx has done and I am pathetic. Before I would probably have tried to get her round and explained, but there is no point. I have to believe she will see it in the end. Told her I love her whatever is going on.

Regarding the police, they have the report, they put it down as Coercive behaviour and it's up to me to tell them to act on it. If so they will arrest her and interview her. But, the process will be slow and take time and most likely end up with word against word. Word against word with a manipulator like her is not something I am looking forward to. The police suggestion was to live apart, but they can't force her to leave as they need her being charged in court, and that takes time. But if she attacks me again to call them straight away and have her arrested. Police suggested if I didn't want to go ahead right now that it might be less evidence needed for a non molestation order that the solicitor would arrange. But again, I need to speak to my solicitor about this. My preferred option would be to leave as soon as possible and start all proceedings away from stbx influence and manipulations. To see her and having her baiting me is emotionally draining and taking to much energy away from the real battle.

Oh, and her latest is that she has promised the kids she is redecorating their room and I need to help.....

[hhaw]

You have the evidence, I suggest going forward with the charges, particularly if she continues being abusive..... particularly if your attorney feels you can prove your case.

At some point you can tell the kids why you're separating......but not to debate.  Just to clear the air and provide clarity once you've filed and explain your decision to the kids. 

It's likely the kids already know what their mother's done to you.  Hearing you say it out loud, sans anger.....solidifies your position as worthy of safety and capable of setting and holding boundaries, ime

I'm sorry the stbx weaponizes the children against you.  That's the way it is.  At least for now.

I really like the book The Parallel Process by Krissy Pozatek, LICSW, bc it gives you a very concrete structure for dealing with problematic relationships with our children.  It demystifies and simplifies, provides a skeleton to build on, ime.  I found my notes recently.  I highly recommend it.

I'll say it one more time, resist allowing stbx to cross your boundaries, assault and abuse you.  At a point you'll be holding her feet to every fire, ime. 

Document, keep your cool, report and be ready to lodge that police complaint to begin your stand.

Once you do......have a plan for leaving. 

You're doing really well.

[escapingman]

Thanks, hhaw. I suppose I feel bad about pressing charges, don't think I can do it whilst living in the same house unless she go on to do a full on assault. But I am tired, I am so tired right now. I am tired of no adult conversation, I am tried of having to implement MC and GR all the time, I am tired of having to stay 100% focused, I am tired of when I do the smallest slip up and actually make a 2 word reply that she tries to jump on me thinking I am back as her supply. I am tired of someone denying the fact I told her I am going to file for divorce and keep trying to involve me in activities with the entire family. Right now she is alternating between playing happy family and being the victim.

I had the discussion with SG yesterday that she need to accept mum and dad will split up, she said we don't we just try to be nice to each other and all will be fine. Makes my hearth bleed as that is what I have tried all these years but it all being sabotaged by stbx. SG brought up happy memories, yes some of them were happy, but what SG failed to include was the extremely unhappy moments during those happy memories caused by some minor incident that made stbx lose her shit and kick off with me. It breaks my hearth to do this, I don't want to split the family up, but I have to. I have to do this to save myself, to save the kids, maybe even to save stbx. 

[escapingman]

Big steps forward today, I paid the solicitor on account and have got an initial consultation with therapist booked. Going to email solicitor tomorrow and find out next steps. Scary but the alternative is worse.

[pushit]

Good for you, EM.  There will certainly be rough times ahead in the short term, but rest assured that life will be so much better on the other side.  I can't even begin to describe how much happier I am now, you'll get there too.  Take things one day (or even one minute) at a time, you'll get through it.

[escapingman]

I think the heat might be turned on very soon. I am not surprised as stbx has never accepted to not get her way. Apparently, SG overheard stbx and GC talking where stbx where telling GC about lawyers, courts and different scenarios. I would not put it passed her to as soon as she realise the divorce actually is happening lodge an accusation and involve GC in it. GC has been manipulated against me for the last year and at the moment would eat out of the hand of stbx. I am buckling up, this will be a ride, I really hope I am strong enough for this.

[Simon]

I am not surprised as stbx has never accepted to not get her way.

Yep.
The emotionally arrested child inside a PD does not like or even understand "No", and just like the toddler that they are emotionally, they will tantrum.
Unfortunately, being an emotional child inside an adult body means that they will do a lot worse than stamp their feet and cry, like a toddler would.
They see no limits in what they can and will do.

But you're getting everything ready in the right way, and you're not giving her reasons to blame you by reacting.
You got this! 

[pushit]

Another thing I should mention - one great thing about involving lawyers is you can step back and let them do the fighting for you.  Let them take that weight off your shoulders, make all the discussions happen through the attorneys and remove yourself from the back and forth.  Don't speak with your stbx directly, that just pulls you back into the circular nonsensical arguments.  Make her put it out in public for all to see. 

You may be very surprised at what happens.  Remember, if she makes accusations there needs to be proof in order for it to stick (at least in my jurisdiction).  If she tries this, it may end up benefitting you.  That's what happened in my case.  My ex spouted a bunch of crazy stuff, her lawyer quickly went into damage control mode and guided her towards a fast settlement.

Looking back at my divorce, the early days felt extremely stressful but in the end it was just a bunch of barking from her attorney that ended up being inconsequential.  I found that the courts have seen it all before, and they typically pay little attention to the party that is shouting loudly with nothing to back it up.  Let your lawyer decide which arguments from the other side hold water, they'll know how to react to things.

And above all, keep your head up and be there the best you can for the kids.  There will be damage control you have to do for them to counter mom's craziness, the best thing you can do is be stable and make it obvious you're not abandoning them.  You won't be at your best, but there will be better times ahead when you can be a better father than ever before.

[escapingman]

It all kicked off again yesterday, GC started shouting at SG again at bed time. Went up to calm it down but was then shouted at by GC as well ending up with PD STBX turning up shouting at everyone for not getting on (she is the one always backing GC against me and SG). Managed to calm it in the end when PD STBX had left for her own room. This morning PD comes into me asking me if I am still in a bad mood. Bad mood? I wasn't in a bad mood I just tried to calm the kids. Anyway, I told her a short yes and she stormed out ranting about how miserable I am and how can I be so nasty etc. Later on I went in to GC who was playing the piano telling her how good it sounded, she immediately shouts at me for not having said hello to her (this is one of PD's manipulations having made GC think I hate her). Telling her calmly she was behaving badly yesterday but just got shouting back and then her being backed by PD. Went back to my room and PD came after screaming at me to stop shouting (I was sitting quietly), then when calmly trying to tell her to stop she storms out start ranting to GC I need to be in rehab. Rehab? For what? Anyway, I got so angry so had to leave the house.

Spoke to solicitor who now want to speed this up and start the proceedings. Solicitor will warn PD STBX to not continue her abuse and to not discuss the divorce with me, if she can't do this she is going to take court proceedings to have PD STBX removed  from the house. Solicitor thinks I have strong enough case and evidence for having that accepted.

Still trying to calm down from this latest drama. Can't even begin to think how this would have turned out if I wasn't Out of the FOG.

[hhaw]

Keep recording, em.

Stbx has telegraphed to you......hers will be an offensive defense of accusations against you to include addiction and abuse on your part.  I assure you, there will be more and you will be as shocked as your solicitor when they come out, ime.

THATs why you hold the PD'S s feet to every fire proactively.... So you don't appear to be a vindictive abuser filing charges against his victim when she " finally speaks out."

Please understand you're shortening, simplifying and mitigating harm when you expose the stbx's conduct proactively and with enough documentation to stop the war PDs wage against accountability.

Being outed is considered an act of war by them.  Contacting a solicitor, telling the truth, protecting yourself and the SG will be considered acts of treason to a PD and please know the more truth about a PD is exposed, the more energy the PD puts into destroying your mental health, physical health, relationships, standing in your community
and
most
if
all......
your credibility.

Always resist losing your temper and mind, bc THAT'S what the PD will be pointing to and she'll believe that's the problem too.

Keep recording, for goodness sake.

Stay consistent.  Feeling level will come and go.......but remain consistently calm and rational.

Don't prioritize protection the PD from consequences.  Please.  You can SAY you'd like to, but then DO what you can to position yourself in the best possible way to bring peace and calm into your lives with economy of motion.
And resources.
And time.
And trauma.

Good luck,em

[square]

I agree. I have no legal knowledge but your stbx is not going to hold back in any way. She won't be constrained by any worry about what's fair, what's true, what's reasonable. She will burn you down. You will be constrained by the truth. Your goal is not to burn her down but just to protect yourself, and by extension, the kids. But you will lose if you try to take it easy on her because she will not do the same.

[hhaw]

EM:

One more thing about holding the PD accountable.......it's my belief WE, as the people who marry and have children with them, tend to be adverse to conflict, IME.  We rarely, if ever, stand up to them, hold thm accountable or otherwise OUT them in socieity and to friends and family members, bc we KNOW it would escalate the trouble we're already struggling with, IME.

Getting over the aversion to conflict, setting a good plan in motion with the help of attorneys and solid supporters......sticking to that plan when things get crazy...... THATs the way out,IME.  We discard any dreams of safety we had for our children and get busy hammering SAFETY OUT for our children, IME. Can't do that by going under the conflict, or over the conflict.... we have to go THROUGH the conflict to get there and acceptance of that is good for our emotional health.

We wouldn't get so far into the PD nightmare IF we had put healthy boundaries in place and enforced them THE FIRST TIME they were stomped on.

When you're alone at night with your thoughts...... research healthy boundaries, co dependence and the book THE PARALLEL PROCESS to keep yourself steady. 

The above is DOING what you CAN DO in the moment, which is a healthy coping strategy you can model for your girls.  Do what you can, then put that story on the shelf.... go back to seeking and/or cultivating some joy with your children or for yourself.  Plan a meal you love.  Cook it.  Invite the kids to help, but release any expectations around it.  Go about your plans and try to enjoy them as best you can..... as you can.  The PD's words hold no power over you IF you put on an imaginary helmet and keep them OUT.  KNOW you have a plan and are working towards resolution..... the PD's words are chaos and confusion and  she will never speak truth, peace or surrender to you.  Any mention of those things are likely to be ploys to get you to give up something or sabotage your standing in your legal case.  Just keep moving along and get separated as quickly as you can.

Worry worry worry, all the time, is an unhealthy coping strategy I certainly employed during my divorce, and I had 2 daughters I was trying to protect also.  Breathe escaping man.  When you're worrying out of your head.... breathe and put your hands on the place in your body where the tension and fear live.  Name them..... hot?  Pinching?  Pressure?  Searing?  Breathe into that discomfort or pain 10 times..... like you're filling a vase, from the bottom of your lungs to the top...... slow and steady.... concentrate on the pain then check it. Repeat till it's gone or stops feeling better. 

Focusing on a place in your body where you feel neutral is good IF you can't focus on the pain.

If yoou can't focus at all, bc you're so upset, push on a door jamb with all your might for a while..... and breathe.  The fight or flight mind NEEDS to act.  It honestly believes it's under life threatening danger..... so PUSH for a bit, then go bak to breathing into your pain again. 

Think of yourself as making good, better and best choices ALL THE TIME.  KNOW every best choice will get you and your children throuogh and out the other side of this more quickly.

Remember.... when you try to spare the PD or protect her.....
you're being cruel to yourself and your children.

[hhaw]

EM:

I found my notes from another poster on  the Parallel Process.....

here's one thing I believe will help you get through this.....

"Resisting being dragged into responding is the only thing you can do, as othr posters have said. This book, though referncing dealing with difficult children, is mostly about how we choose to change and respond differently ourselves, IMO."

YES! 

I know you're overwhelmed so will post other notes later. 

[escapingman]

Thanks for your amazing support!

Stbx went out with the kids today, she came home with GC leaving me a note GC had been misbehaving and therefor needed to stay in her room until tea. Then stbx left again. So I went upstairs to G to see what was going on, this is the girl that in front of stbx was screaming at me she hates me, tells me she swore at SG and after a bit of talking she also admitted to have pushed her PD mum twice because she was bored. I calmly told her she should apologise to them both when they come home. She agreed and then we had a cuddle and I told her I love her more than anything and that does not change when she shouts at me. I got a genuine smile from her and then an embarrassed "go away" from her. That made my day.

We have a strategy for the divorce, my solicitor is really good so far and is pushing me and is stopping me from being to kind. We agreed stbx will be served the papers, she had given me the draft ones and only need to confirm and tell her when. Stbx will be told to not talk to the children or me about the divorce, she will be told to not talk badly to me in front of the kids, and she will be told to accept the "mild" accusations in the paper. If she doesn't, we will take it to court and get harsh. My solicitor is convinced we have enough evidence to have her evicted, but I just want to give her a tiny bit of rope so she can hang herself. I am not sure if she will go all out war, or just crawl into a ball and be the biggest victim ever. I think and hope she will do the latter, but I am ready for fight. 

[Lauren17]

EM, several thoughts to share with you.
I'd like to second Pushit's advice to step back and let the lawyers do the arguing for you. I've had to work through terrible guilt when doing so. (It's so hard to let go of all those years of isolation training.) But it's been very effective.
It sounds like you're doing right by your daughters. Holding them accountable for their behaviors. Not bad mouthing Mom. Reassuring them that you love them.
Hhaw's advice hasn't steered me wrong, yet.
Sometimes, ok often, I feel like the things I'm doing aren't enough. This is in all areas. Not enough GR. Not enough MC. Not enough support to girls. Not enough protection against retaliation. When worry starts to take over I sit down and write it out.
I'm worried that X will happen. These are the things I can control. These are the things I can't control. Then I step through which of the "can control" things I've done to help prevent X from happening.
And, often, I come to Out of the FOG to take strength from others going through similar situations.

[escapingman]

Thanks Lauren, that is exactly what I am doing. For the last 2 weeks since I took my final decision I have only made very few and limited conversations with her, mostly one word answers. I have reiterated we are getting a divorce and pointed to her behaviour when she has pushed to a reason. I have left it there, nothing more. I don't intend to argue anything with her - I am done with that. I did that for 15+ years and only got me close to a madhouse. Next week STBX will be served the papers, they will also tell her to under no circumstance talk to either me or the kids about the divorce and to not talk badly about me to the kids or to abuse me anymore. She will also be told that all communications regarding this will be handled by the solicitor. If (when) she fails this the plan is to get hard on her. That is a game the solicitor will play better than me.

[hhaw]

EM:

The stbx will likely be pathologically unable to:
1.  Resist talking to the children about it the adult conflict, ime.

2.  Settle the custody/divorce out if court.

I write this so you look down the road with your attorney, remain proactive in the ways you can AND so you avoid getting your hopes up, dashed, up, dashed and so on, bc it's devastating to one's mental health, ime.

BTW, what are the consequences for ignoring the Court's directive to refrain from including the key D's in the adult conflict?

Think about holding the stbx accountable every step of the way, without restraint.  You're mitigating harm to the children ...... that's what you talk about.  The kids the kids the kids.

Remember to speak about the stbx with compassion, always! 

[escapingman]

Hhaw,  I think that it will be a BIG help in getting stbx removed from the house. My solicitor semester pretty confidential we already have enough evidence, I am sure we will go down that route as she just can't keep herself calm.

[escapingman]

Tired,  I am so tired. I could stay in bed all day every day, I have to drag myself out in the mornings. I think the last couple of weeks have mentally drained me, but I am now in the complete opposite to before. Before when I did nothing everything nust kept going as always and the abuse continued. The new do nothing defaults to divorce as stbx will be served the papers and everything controlled by solicitor. So happy to be in this position, but scared shit at the same time.

[escapingman]

Just noticed something very interesting, my stbx uNPDw is in a good mood. She came in to me and started chatting about somethings, I gave her one word answers making it clear I was not in the mood to talk to her and frankly is in a very bad way (caused by her). She completely ignores/missing how down I am and runs off singing and being generally happy. I really have come to realise that if she is in a good mood and have got her supply from something other than me, she doesn't need me to give her supply and she completely misses if I am happy/sad/angry/whatever. I am just bracing myself as she will receive the news from my solicitor later today, just not sure which person she will turn into, the angry blamer, the victim or the denier. So far she has been alternating between all 3 when I have reiterated we are getting a divorce, but this could really push her into any direction. I really don't want to be here witnessing this, but my solicitor have said it's important and that I am recording any abuse following this as that could have a major impact on the next steps.

Wish me luck, I am shitting myself right now.