PD’s, Pharisees and Hypocrisy

[SonofThunder]

PD's and Pharisees: Woe...how similar!  Lessons of truth and empowerment from Jesus.

As we take the time to look deeper into the comparison of PD's and Pharisees (over time and multiple posts on this thread) please feel free to join in the conversation as we are all equals here, and I love that truth!   So please add-to, challenge in love, and comment all you desire.  The more input the better! 

To all you good people, who have wandered into this board section and are curious, you our welcome here!  This is the 'religion' board and so although its no requirement for you to be 'religious', lets try and keep the conversation wagons circling around religious teachings (all religions welcome on the religion board) and ideas in general and teachings on the subject of hypocrisy, so it stays true to the board and the thread, and doesn't get hijacked into another board topic or specifically down one persons experiences.  But, please feel free to tie-in your PD and religious experiences, with examples, as it relates back to the thread topic. 

As for me, I'm starting the thread so I'm naturally going first haha.  I'm a steady growing follower of the life and teachings of Jesus Christ so therefore Christianity would be my 'religion'.  Im not a personal fan of 'religion' and have departed from all organized 'religion' and a brick-and-mortar gathering place, but rather, I'm now on a life-long quest to get to know, learn from and fellowship with/follow my creator.  I don't know much about the teachings of other religions but am always interested to learn.   So onward! 

Let's consider that Jesus is peeling back the skin of the Pharisees, who were the rules-focused, oppressive religious 'leaders' of the day in Israel and revealing the pulp of their self-focus and gain at the expense of others, including Jesus' himself and HIS original designs of love, relationship, faith and marriage.

In similar fashion, PD's are doing the same thing to us spouses, children, siblings and other people they attempt to manipulate for their own gain.  Earthly marriage and deep personal human relationships are designed by God-Jesus to be a model of his relationship with his creation, and therefore, the Pharisees purposeful manipulation of the people and God's designs is why Jesus was SO heavily focused on their facade and exposing the truth behind the lies? 

Like the commoner's of Israel under the weight of rules, lies and manipulation/abuse, we non's are SO time and mental/physical energy-consumed in self protection, protection of our loved ones, protection of our good desires and plans, that we are worn out, confused and injured.  We are used. 

So, what good is it for Jesus to expose the lies of these hypocrites and teach us and the people around him, the reality that he originally created?  Although Jesus has the power to do so, his exposure of the Pharisees' lies didn't rid the world of hypocrites and users/abusers, but rather became, in the face of wrongdoing, a beacon of truth that empowers those who learn from him, to fortify their/our armor-for-living, in a world full of Pharisees, and to hopefully choose him, the creator, as the good teacher.  He desires us to choose what is right, and to abandon what is wrong.  Will we face extremes in doing so?  Surely, just as Jesus did and others who choose to follow the truth.  Be empowered! 

The same is true about Out of the FOG.   It is a place of truth, exposure/recognition of what is wrong, fellowship around what is right, and like Jesus, a hopeful source of empowerment! 

SoT

——————-

To begin: From BibleGateway.Com, here is Matthew 23, from the New American Standard Bible. 

Hypocrisy Exposed:

23 Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples, 2 saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses. 3 Therefore, whatever they tell you, do and [a]comply with it all, but do not do as they do; for they say things and do not do them. 4 And they tie up heavy burdens and lay them on people's shoulders, but they themselves are unwilling to move them with so much as their finger. 5 And they do all their deeds to be noticed by other people; for they broaden their phylacteries and lengthen the tassels of their garments. 6 And they love the place of honor at banquets, and the seats of honor in the synagogues, 7 and personal greetings in the marketplaces, and being called Rabbi by the people. 8 But as for you, do not be called [e]Rabbi; for only One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers and sisters. 9 And do not call anyone on earth your father; for only One is your Father, He who is in heaven. 10 And do not be called leaders; for only One is your Leader, that is, Christ. 11 But the greatest of you shall be your servant. 12 Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled, and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted.

Eight Woes

13 "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut the kingdom of heaven in front of people; for you do not enter it yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.

15 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one [h]proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.

16 "Woe to you, blind guides, who say, 'Whoever swears by the temple, that is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple is obligated.' 17 You fools and blind men! Which is more important, the gold or the temple that sanctified the gold? 18 And you say, 'Whoever swears by the altar, that is nothing; but whoever swears by the offering that is on it is obligated.' 19 You blind men, which is more important, the offering or the altar that sanctifies the offering? 20 Therefore, the one who swears by the altar, swears both by the altar and by everything on it. 21 And the one who swears by the temple, swears both by the temple and by Him who dwells in it. 22 And the one who swears by heaven, swears both by the throne of God and by Him who sits upon it.

23 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the Law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others. 24 You blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!

25 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside they are full of robbery and self-indulgence. 26 You blind Pharisee, first clean the inside of the cup and of the dish, so that the outside of it may also become clean.

27 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness. 28 So you too, outwardly appear righteous to people, but inwardly you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.

29 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs for the prophets and decorate the monuments of the righteous, 30 and you say, 'If we had been living in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.' 31 So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers. 33 You snakes, you offspring of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?

34 "Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will flog in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, 35 so that upon you will fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

Grieving over Jerusalem

37 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who have been sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38 Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! 39 For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, 'Blessed is the One who comes in the name of the Lord!'"

[Andeza]

Hmm, such an excellent comparison. Sometimes when reading about the behavior of personality disordered individuals, I'm struck profoundly with various bits of scripture initially aimed at the Pharisees that is 100% applicable. In those days, I fully believe that what we now know as narcissists would have sought out the most high profile positions among the people for supply. Therefore, Jesus knew them for what they were. Whited sepulcher filled with dead men's bones. Pretty on the outside, but full of corruption and unclean things.

I am frequently reminded, when reading about pwPDs that are active in the church and put on one mask there only to mistreat their families at home, of Matthew 7:23.

God knows the heart of man, whether it be true or false. Being pro gaslighters ain't going to help them in the end.

[Mary]

I had never read Matt 23 from that lense, SoT. It shows me that Jesus knows exactly what is going on, and calls out the hypocrisy. Verse 12 is a challenge and very comforting, as Jesus teaches those who are not Pharisees how to be.

"12 Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled, and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted."

I aim to follow this teaching, and I am hoping for a bunch of high-five's from Jesus someday!

Thanks for the thought-provoking comparison.
Mary

[SonofThunder]

Hmm, such an excellent comparison. Sometimes when reading about the behavior of personality disordered individuals, I'm struck profoundly with various bits of scripture initially aimed at the Pharisees that is 100% applicable. In those days, I fully believe that what we now know as narcissists would have sought out the most high profile positions among the people for supply. Therefore, Jesus knew them for what they were. Whited sepulcher filled with dead men's bones. Pretty on the outside, but full of corruption and unclean things.

I am frequently reminded, when reading about pwPDs that are active in the church and put on one mask there only to mistreat their families at home, of Matthew 7:23.

God knows the heart of man, whether it be true or false. Being pro gaslighters ain't going to help them in the end.

Andeza,

I fully agree that NPD's and general Narcissism would have been the backbone behind those that sought out those positions. There is no reason, imo, to believe that personality disorders were not as common in that day as they are today, and in the hands of money, power and pride, we see that these self-appointed, covert, intelligent humans, used and abused those in their way, even to the point of public rage and murder. 

One thing i must keep in mind always, is that Jesus has unlimited supernatural abilities, one of which is omniscience. In addition, his ability to control matter, nature and time. These supernatural abilities allow Jesus to fully control his circumstances in situations that we cannot, therefore i desire to remember human limitations in my dealing with abusers, but also be extremely gracious that Jesus, this all-powerful creator, loves his creation enough, to come into this highly volatile scene voluntarily, in order to have even closer relationship with those who will believe, and to teach by example, even leaving a legacy of his time here and a general textbook for living. 

The Matthew 7:23 reference is a great way to relate the hypocrisy of PD's in the home vs in public.  What is interesting to me, is that Jesus teaching is more focused toward those who are being gaslighted and manipulated, not the abusers themselves.  Yes, he surely and supernaturally exposes truth to the abusers face in the very volatile public settings (we non's learn quickly that calling out a PD trait in a public setting is flame to gasoline) that only he can escape, but he is doing so to show the hypocrisy and teach the sheep that they are incorrectly following the gaslighting, manipulative, covert and disordered shepherds, and that in contrast, he is the good shepherd and that his desire is peace and deep joy, even in the midst of abusers. 

Therefore, i believe Jesus is exposing and teaching for our courageous real living on this Earth as well as prove to us who to trust (him!) for when our time is complete here.  I do not believe Jesus is simply conveying he is 'aware' of our circumstances and for us to solely focus on the heavenly end-goal, in martyrdom fashion, but to fully protect ourselves now, using the supernatural education he provides into the human condition that sin creates, and for us to absorb the power that he models. 

SoT

[SonofThunder]

I had never read Matt 23 from that lense, SoT. It shows me that Jesus knows exactly what is going on, and calls out the hypocrisy. Verse 12 is a challenge and very comforting, as Jesus teaches those who are not Pharisees how to be.

"12 Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled, and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted."

I aim to follow this teaching, and I am hoping for a bunch of high-five's from Jesus someday!

Thanks for the thought-provoking comparison.
Mary

Hi Mary,

Thanks for your input on the thread.  In verse 12, what do you believe that 'humbles himself' means and how does it relate to time, both now and to the future? 

I want to notice that at verse 8, Jesus switches briefly from PD/Pharisee trait exposure, to those around who may ascribe to a place of prominence and/or those who are blindly letting themselves being led-around and led-astray by these users and abusers. 

Verse 8 starts with "But as for you..."  and therefore continues on into the verse 12 you referenced.  But in verse 13, he goes right back to trait exposure and the list of 'woes'.  Again, its great that we can witness Jesus' powerful public confrontation of these abusers (and only he can escape the resulting murder attempts).

Also i want to point out verses 37-39, and especially verse 38 (retyped below), where Jesus, because of the continued hypocrisy and abuse, will be very shortly abandoning them to let them wallow in their own mess until he returns in the (i just love the powerful, passive-aggressive tone of Jesus) way they think/hope he should have come. Oh my gosh, will they be ever-surprised in his second coming, and the future Pharisees (our abusers as well) will then have wished they heeded the teaching of God. 

Jesus doesn't use his supernatural abilities to auto-correct the issue, but lays out the truth and then leaves/abandons them to suffer the consequences.  But his teaching to the masses, is to recognize, stop listening to and protect oneself from these abusers and follow their creator's teaching instead. 

37 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who have been sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38 Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! 39 For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, 'Blessed is the One who comes in the name of the Lord!'"

SoT

[SonofThunder]

In this thread, i desire for myself,  to jump around Jesus' teachings and look at how he exposes the hypocrisy of the abusers, the analogies he makes regarding them, and his encouraging teachings regarding the way for non's to live.  Again, he mostly exposes the wrongdoing (exposure is also a good lesson although he knows it wont change the abusers) and then teaches another way, to those who are being abused. 

Therefore, please also feel free to continue to provide any input (Biblical or other religious texts for those who desire) on the PD/Pharisee/Hypocrisy subject of this thread.  I will be doing the same in a random fashion as i explore it from a Biblical side. 

I desire for myself to have excellent conversation regarding the current and previous thread comments, as well as insert and discuss additional texts. Thanks for the interesting conversation!

SoT

[SonofThunder]

I believe it may be good to note that by the time Jesus arrived, the Jewish population's everyday life, seven days a week, was basically regulated by Roman law as a governing body and then internally in Jewish life, by the Torah-guided rules of the Sadducees and the contemporary, self-serving rules of the Pharisees.  *See below for a copy/paste read regarding. 

I bring this up because the rule-keeping and power-controlling influence of the Pharisees (combined with the old-school Sadducees), seemed to affect just about every aspect of day-to-day living and therefore the common people were constantly misguided, manipulated, hounded and extorted by these power-hungry people, who operated behind the protective facade of religion and piety. 

Jesus therefore, stood in stark contrast to the Pharisees as he taught, called out the hypocrisy and challenged everyone to see the light of God's freeing truth vs their dark controlling experiences.  In a way, these common people were oppressed into the same FOG (fear, obligation and guilt) that we experience with PD's and the hypocrisy of the PD also knows no bounds, similar to the Pharisees of Jesus day.   

Therefore, imo when I explore the New Testament Biblical texts, I try to remember that i am reading the everyday stories of Jesus and the people of that area, both during and after Jesus' coming.  I personally believe that modern Catholic (i know many) and Protestant religions (my experiences), and many of those organization members that call themselves 'religious', compartmentalize religion into its own space in their 7-day-a-week-lives; a kind of religious 'hat'. 

My experiences with my uPDf and uPDw are that they put on their religious facade 'hat' mostly in Sunday worship or in some Bible study group (my uPDw has done this for a decade+), and with the two PD's, it has always been a sickening experience to experience their hellion traits the other hours of the week when the hats of employment, parent, spouse (HA!), friend, hobby etc.. were mostly worn.  Now as a disclaimer, i am not, nor desire to be anyones judge, so what religious hats they choose to wear is between them and their creator, but i can speak truthfully for my own experiences with the two Pharisees in my life. 

So, in looking into the PD/Pharisee/Hypocrisy comparisons, I desire to not attribute what Biblical texts I'm reading, into the religion 'compartment', but rather attach to the people's everyday life experiences as it was in Jesus day.  I believe that helps me to better relate the Pharisees and PD's and how the people were SO affected by them in all areas of living. 

SoT

-—————
From Encyclopedia Britannica (britannica.com/topic/Pharisee)

Pharisees (Hebrew: Perushim) emerged as a distinct group shortly after the Maccabean revolt, about 165–160 BCE; they were, it is generally believed, spiritual descendants of the Hasideans. The Pharisees emerged as a party of laymen and scribes in contradistinction to the Sadducees—i.e., the party of the high priesthood that had traditionally provided the sole leadership of the Jewish people. The basic difference that led to the split between the Pharisees and the Sadducees lay in their respective attitudes toward the Torah (the first five books of the Bible) and the problem of finding in it answers to questions and bases for decisions about contemporary legal and religious matters arising under circumstances far different from those of the time of Moses. In their response to this problem, the Sadducees, on the one hand, refused to accept any precept as binding unless it was based directly on the Torah—i.e., the Written Law. The Pharisees, on the other hand, believed that the Law that God gave to Moses was twofold, consisting of the Written Law and the Oral Law—i.e., the teachings of the prophets and the oral traditions of the Jewish people. Whereas the priestly Sadducees taught that the written Torah was the only source of revelation, the Pharisees admitted the principle of evolution in the Law: humans must use their reason in interpreting the Torah and applying it to contemporary problems.

The Pharisees were primarily not a political party but a society of scholars and pietists. They enjoyed a large popular following, and in the New Testament they appear as spokesmen for the majority of the population. About 100 BCE a long struggle ensued as the Pharisees tried to democratize the Jewish religion and remove it from the control of the Temple priests. The Pharisees asserted that God could and should be worshipped even away from the Temple and outside Jerusalem. To the Pharisees, worship consisted not in bloody sacrifices—the practice of the Temple priests—but in prayer and in the study of God's law. Hence, the Pharisees fostered the synagogue as an institution of religious worship, outside and separate from the Temple. The synagogue may thus be considered a Pharasaic institution, since the Pharisees developed it, raised it to high eminence, and gave it a central place in Jewish religious life.

[SonofThunder]

In response to my previous post:

I put forth the above thought (regarding everyday life in Israel with the Pharisees) in hopes of having the Biblical texts relate to my/our everyday living vs in the religious compartments of our lives.  Imo, a growing relationship with Jesus is a 24/7 proactive endeavor on all aspects of being alive and human, similar to the 24/7 of being a parent. Therefore what I read in the text is, for me, 100% applicable to my everyday life. 

I am looking into the Pharisees who are the predominant narcissistic, hypocritical manipulators of Jesus day, who just happen to utilize religion as the tool of choice for coercion, control and personal gain at the expense of others (our PD experiences). Religion was a 24/7 way of life in that day and the Roman rule of the region did not focus upon the Jews general activities unless it was somehow disruptive to Roman rule, law, taxes or order (vs upheaval).  So because of that, the narcissistic Pharisees operated inside the covert protective confines of religion and Jewish law to oppress and manipulate (and even execute) under Jewish law.

*It is my understanding that in Jesus case the Jews didn't have any evidence to execute based on Jewish law, so they lied and manipulated to appeal to Roman law, and Pilate put Jesus to death to avoid a riot and a smear to Pilates name and position, or his own death if an uprising in Jerusalem became dishonoring to Rome/Caesar. 

So then, going forward, i will be using my studies and shared thoughts here on this thread, to glean from Biblical texts in further understanding of, learning from and protection from the similar ways of the uPD's in my 24/7 everyday life. 

SoT

[SonofThunder]

There are two chapters in John (chapters 9 and 10) that i find very intriguing regarding Jesus' purposeful and creative exposure of Pharisee hypocrisy and then immediately following that ordeal, by teaching about the realities of shepherds and sheep and its analogy to being hyper-aware of self-serving hypocrites and right from wrong. 

Again, since everyday living for the Jewish population in Jesus' day was woven in religion and also, imo, Jesus desires our relationship with him to be interconnected 24/7 in our lives today.  For us non's that 24/7 includes the exhausting work of living with PD's (controlling hypocrites) in our lives.  Therefore any teaching and principles we can glean from Jesus is fantastic. 

Instead of my pasting the entire chapters of John 9 and 10, I have provided a convenient web link below (if desired) to Bible Gateway, so we may choose a translation that suits each of us.  *My choice is the NASB for verse-by-verse study, coupled with The Message for a well translated, no verse-numbers everyday street language for general understanding of the context and the vibe of scene. 

I want to encourage others to notice the hypocrisy, verbal abuse, black and white thinking/judgements, grandiose attitudes toward self, FOG of the parents of the blind man, manipulation, gaslighting and well-arranged fear and control by the threat-use of 'excommunication' from the synagogue (everyday life restriction and reputation smearing). 

I also laugh at loud at the 'what do i have to lose', passive-aggressive brilliance of the blind man who creatively positions the Pharisees into a corner with his public responses, until they ramp up to rage and verbally abuse him and use their ace-card of 'putting out'.  He's been blind his whole life, so his listening and thinking skills are razor sharp!  Im sure he was probably not 'put-in' to the synagogue in the first place, since the pious Pharisees taught that handicaps were because of a persons/parent(s) committed sins, so he probably could care less about being 'put-out'.  But I'm sure the Pharisees got a public kick out of doing it along with the verbal abuse. I just love the blind guy and in a way, his passive aggressive smart-ass comebacks are exactly how i want to JADE at times, but the toolbox is better for my blood pressure haha. 

For the fun of the possible thought and future Damascus road experience, what if John 9 verse 40 is Saul of Tarsus (Paul) and also John 10 verse 21.  Ha! If so, i bet he recalled those words vividly when his eyesight was removed.  That would be SO Jesus-like to have it that way. 

When you get to John 10, take notice of verse 1 and its application to potential experienced love-bombing as the "thief and robber" that may have, in a whirlwind of excitement, creatively landed you a PD spouse and landed your robber, a target caretaker.  I can relate to it for certain.  Verse 10 is also applicable for a PD's drive to self-serve at the expense of us nons.  Interesting to me also that the sheep know that the thief/robber isnt their good-shepherd, because they know him so well.  Hmmm...wish i had taken the long time needed to recognize a robber.  I also wish i knew back then what i know now regarding PD's, as I would have been a much sharper sheep but instead, had the 'wool pulled over my own eyes'. 

SoT

www.biblegateway.com

[SonofThunder]

My study of the hypocrisy, Pharisee and PD subject is of great interest to me at this time, because I am, imo, in perpetual Discard in the IDD cycle. 

I have been around the major IDD cycles about 8 times in my 30 year marriage with the smaller and even micro IDD cycles happening within the long major ones.  I have written in another thread, about my move away from matching the Discard (which brought me quickly and strongly back one step to Devaluation, because PD's cannot handle a taste of their own medicine (hypocrisy). 

Therefore i have found that a MC mode of Indifference, is a perfect way to settle in nicely for the long-haul Discard, and using the toolbox to never get back on the IDD hamster wheel again. 

In doing so, my uPDw has now heavily embraced her past off/on religious interests;  joining a women's Bible study, listening to Sunday sermons while putting on her makeup, venting to me (if i ask..otherwise silent, pretending I'm not around) how some of her acquaintances are doing certain things, or responding in ways that to her, are not ways that are becoming of a Christian. 

*I believe her Bible study group is quite the gossip meetup, based on what stories im told, if i inquire upon her return. 

Since I have fully tested her  PD hallmark trait, 'Fear of Abandonment', a few years back, i know that in the ultimate mode of Discard (emotional, physical affair...or both), she will need a target-supply person to substitute for me, since she is getting very little supply from me any longer. 

Therefore, im studying the hypocrisy of the Pharisees and Jesus' insights and wisdom regarding, to better understand what I may be seeing and future-seeing, as my uPDw is more than in her past, practicing her religion. 

Disclaimer*:  i am not desiring to judge my uPDw's religion and authenticity of her faith, and possible real heart-desire for a better relationship with her creator.  I actually wish that for her.  But, I have have plenty of past and current experience with extreme hypocrisy with her in many areas of our marital relationship, so i don't trust her.  But again, I'm not her judge, nor would I desire to be, so I'm very glad that God has that job. 

I have a friend with a diagnosed BPDexwife who embraced religion while having an affair with the owner of the landscape company that serviced their home, and she at one time, also had an affair with a very successful contemporary Christian musician in a popular band.  When the group performed near to the town in which she lived, she would have sex with the musician. This (and many other terrible BPD-driven activities) was found out about in a later-discovered journal she hid in their home. She had been quickly, legally removed from the home with a protective order when she threatened her husband (my friend) with death and also wrote the threat in her own blood on their master bedroom dresser.  So therefore, he scoured the home afterward for anything he could find to legally assist in his protection in the coming divorce. 

So again, just keeping a watchful eye open and an educated mind, full of Jesus' insight to combine with my growing PD education while monitoring the progress of my Discard situation. 

SoT

[square]

They said, "You're nothing but dirt! How dare you take that tone with us!" Then they threw him out in the street.
John 9:34

I'm going to give them some leeway for investigating a man who claimed to be the son of God. But it's interesting that they ridiculed the blind man rather than merely being skeptical.

That his parents were afraid to say anything other than he was their son and he was born blind shows this was hardly a one time behavior.

I do appreciate John's clarifying interjections.

[Mary]

I look at the pharisees and at how super religious my uPDh can sound when having a spiritual conversation with someone. But he can then turn around and lie to my face to get his way with seeming no remorse.

With this in the background I find myself increasingly sceptical of preachers. How do I know they're true followers of Christ and worthy of my attention?  But we all come short so I don't want to be too harsh in my judgments. It helps if I know something about them and their lifestyle.

On the topic of humility, I have really been pondering what Jesus meant by saying we should abase and not exalt ourselves. I think there is a place for being confident in our abilities without being prideful. Maybe it's in remembering where thise talents came from and not feeling better than others because of them.

Also, I guess in my case, it's easy to think of myself first instead of considering the needs of others. For example, I started jawing with someone at church about how my week had gone, and come to find out her husband had just walked out on her. When I could have been a listening ear, I jumped right in about the big "I". So yeah, I think humility includes considering others first and caring about people without having the false humility that "I'm just a no-good sinner, not good at anything."
Thank you for your thoughts and research SoT, and hang in there during this long discard phase.
Mary

[square]

I see the bottom line as this:

We are not to lift ourselves above others.

But we can be happy with ourselves as filling our special niche among all God's children.

So I see pride as thinking we are better, or deserve more. But that's not the same as feeling we did a good job or enjoying our talents. We do not all have equal talents, but we are all equally valuable people. I see it as totally fine to think "I just did a great job with X, I'm really good at X, I seem to have a talent with X" - as long as it doesn't lead to "I'm better than this other person, I'm better than other people, God has chosen me above others, I'm going to heaven and they are not."

[Mary]

Well put, Square!