Trying to find acceptance

[moglow]

Y'all don't let anybody kid you - choosing no contact with a parent is not an easy path. Knowing [or suspecting] they're okay with that decision isn't easy either. It's now 4+ months since I last spoke with mother and blocked her cell phone due to the incessent snarky negative texts, more recently she disconnected her home phone claiming spam calls and the monthly expense was too much. On one level I'm as okay with all of that as I can be at this point, and trying to find acceptance with it all.

My brother's now telling me about mother's recent purchases and her offers to pay for this or that, for him or others. He's frustrated with her throwing money around that she presumably doesn't have on a limited income that's not going to increase, over the top credit card spending is our suspicion.  My thoughts are that if you cut off home phone because of the expense, reasonable people don't leap out there to fill that void with something new. It's not at all about the expense. I know she's not reasonable and me thinking that way is a waste of my air and energy, but here we are.

I believe it's an old school Mexican standoff in mother's mind. I blocked her cell phone due to the way she treated me, now she's cut off her home phone in retaliation of sorts, throwing that ball back in my court. It's not boundaries and consequences, my refusal to be treated that way anymore. We now have no contact because I blocked her cell, not because of her choices. And I feel guilty as a result. Dumped myself smack dab back where I just clawed my way out of. 

Why on earth does what she thinks weigh so heavily on my mind and how do I shut it off??? I get that part of it is a lifetime of training and reinforcement, the belief that I'm [and others are] responsible for her feewings. All the stuff is still ebbing and flowing through my soul like waves ...

[Cat of the Canals]

I'm not NC but I've distanced myself quite a bit from PDmom this year. I expected a flurry of Flying Monkey activity, but there's been none. Like seriously. NOTHING.

On the one hand, I know I should be glad she hasn't escalated things. No drama =   

On the other hand, I know that this most likely means I've been discarded (maybe more like semi-discarded?), which stings a little. Even though I've told myself ever since coming Out of the FOG that her supposed dedication/loyalty to me was little more than a manipulative smokescreen, it still feels like a smack in the face to realize how much that was true. How easily I can be replaced with whatever or whomever will give her the necessary resources. I mean, the reason I gave for wanting distance was that my BIL had just died. Has she checked in on my emotional state AT ALL? Sent even a simple message to say, "Hey, I know maybe you still don't want to talk, but if you do, I'm here. Whatever you need, I'm here." NOPE.

I don't have any answers, really... I wonder from time to time if there's an innate sense of knowing what we're "supposed" to have when it comes to a mother. And that those of us without that are somewhat doomed to always have these complicated feelings swirling around in our minds. Wondering why and how things could have been different if this/that had happened another way, and on and on...

Whatever it is, hang in there, moglow. Let the guilt go, if you can. It's not yours anyway. It's hers.

[Andeza]

"Why on earth does what she thinks weigh so heavily on my mind and how do I shut it off???"

It's supposed to, Moglow. In a perfect world we'd be able to take the advice of our parents, learn at their knee, then elbow, until we're grown, knowing we can always check in for a word of advice or a tiny bit of cheering up when needed. But that's not what we get from them. We just get more abuse. Instead of advice, we have to hear about why it's our fault. Instead of support, we get a freakishly gleeful finger-pointing. Good heavens...

And some of us, because it's all we've ever known, become addicted to the drama. When we rip it out of our life there's this big, boring empty spot where they used to sit and chatter nonstop. When I went NC with uBPDm, I'm a bit ashamed to say that I missed the drama. There were times I was bored out of my skull at work and would call her just to let her ramble because I was slowly losing my mind with nothing to do. (Heck, by then I'd deep cleaned my entire office, and since work had to do with dirt by its nature that could take days.) But the more I came Out of the FOG, the more I realized I was just trapping myself in a nasty cycle. She had become my freaking hobby!

I'm not saying that's where you are, just that I feel it's a possibility. I might, were I in your shoes, make kind request to brother to leave me out unless there's a major development concerning health, living, or funeral arrangements... Then, I'd go out and get a new hobby. I took up gardening, personally. And chickens. They talk all day long but will never say a bad word about you.

Mexican standoff? More like the guy that's getting fired and screams "YOU can't fire me, I QUIT!" They really do have the emotional maturity of toddlers, I swear.

[Hilltop]

I'm another who thinks it may be 'I'm no fired, I quit'.  Or maybe you were the only one she spoke to on that line.  We got rid of ours when we realised we didn't use it any more.  Perhaps she was impulsive and it was a reaction.

I use to go through stages where I would think about it non stop.  Ruminate day and night and its really not healthy.  I found after I read a ton of books and did a bit of healing work that I ruminated less.  I still think about it from time to time.  The one thing I realised is that the more time you spend thinking about them, their motives, their thoughts, there isn't any room left to be thinking about yourself and how you feel.  I needed to think about my parents actions to understand the problems and really think about how I felt about it but when I simply ruminated about what they had said or done, it didn't get me anywhere.  In saying that it took a conscious effort to stop it.  To be aware and train myself to change my thoughts.

I remember reading somewhere that the drama becomes addictive and you may not even be aware that you are addicted to that cycle.  I am not sure if I was addicted but I did have to break myself away from it.  I think we spend so long thinking about it, it just becomes a normal part of our life and day.  Its a game and we get drawn into playing.  What move are they making, what do I do now, if I do A what will the response to that be or if I do B will that work better.  You know what, it doesn't even matter what you do, it won't change the big game.

In the end you need to turn inward to yourself.  Work out how you want to live, where do you find peace and do that.  It doesn't matter if the other party is upset or what they say.  Nothing else has worked so why not tune into yourself.

To add, my MIL went through a stage of spending so much she actually got behind on bills.  Why was she spending so much.  She was buying gifts for us, for our house ie decorating our house.  I didn't like it, when she found that out I didn't like it, she doubled her effort to buy us multiple gifts a week, ongoing for months, I mean gifts are a PD favourite.  In the end, she got behind in bills and with her credit card.  That's the thing with PD's, you can't stop them playing their nonsense games, you simply have to remove yourself.  In MIL's case she spent until she simply couldn't afford it anymore.  I told her I didn't have room for everything she was buying and she gleefully bought more and more.  I threw it all away and stopped talking to her about it, she got a gift I said nothing or a bland thank you and then I threw it away, when she stopped getting that reaction, she stopped spending her money however she was already in debt.  She actually allowed herself to get into debt to get that reaction. You can't help them, you can't tell them.

[moglow]

I read and reread your responses last night - my headache let go and I finally got a decent night sleep, so thank you!

I know reading all that, it looked silly. Logical on the surface, because who needs both landline and cell. Why not cut unnecessary expenses? Not knowing the backstory, her oft-repeated "I don't want to cut the home phone off, end our only means of communication ..." Then her making that very decision now, after knowing I blocked her cell phone. She gets to appear the victim of mean ole daughter. And??


If she plays victim ... To who? She's deliberately narrowed her world down to a nubbin, and what others think *still* isn't my stuff. My reality is how painful and fruitless "communication" with that woman had been for years. She ramped it up the past few years with her accusations, while showing not one whit of interest or concern for me. My life has made a huge turn for the better overall and not only does she not know, it wouldn't matter. She's still the same person.

It still ain't easy. It just becoming a smaller part of me. I sure hope I can close that door in my mind eventually.

[Hepatica]

moglow,
I agree with Andeza. It hurts because it's supposed to. It's a parenting style that believes in punishment and relishes in that power.

The natural concept of family is topsy turvy in disorder-land.  We grew up feeling like this  again and again and again. I constantly find myself wondering why my parents use the closest people around them as punching bags? They perceive that as normal. Healthy families understand that the inner circle of family is meant to be supportive, not perfect, but at the basic level, loving. Disorder-land goes for denial, punishment and anything goes if I'm in a bad mood.

If she had not left nasty texts, you would have had no reason to set a boundary. If she had any ability to look inward and realized, oh yeah, I'm behaving terribly. Our parents cannot humble themselves because it jars that belief system that a parent is an all powerful being, and can do no wrong, and the children must respect that hierarchy and always submit to them, or suffer the consequences.

Your mother is using tools to get to you. The phones and your brother. You might have to request that he keep all information about her at a need to know basis only. She has no self-reflection to stop what she's doing and a fixed belief system that believes in punishment. You deserve to be loved.

Step back a bit and tell yourself that you deserve better and it's very unlikely she will be the healthy parent you deserve. Treat yourself with some tenderness. This is a loss and it hurts. I'm sorry. But you can find that love within and with other people. Our toxic parents though. It's doubtful they will ever realize what true love is.

[moglow]

I'm not NC but I've distanced myself quite a bit from PDmom this year. I expected a flurry of Flying Monkey activity, but there's been none. Like seriously. NOTHING.

On the one hand, I know I should be glad she hasn't escalated things. No drama =   

On the other hand, I know that this most likely means I've been discarded (maybe more like semi-discarded?), which stings a little. Even though I've told myself ever since coming Out of the FOG that her supposed dedication/loyalty to me was little more than a manipulative smokescreen, it still feels like a smack in the face to realize how much that was true. ...
I don't have any answers, really... I wonder from time to time if there's an innate sense of knowing what we're "supposed" to have when it comes to a mother. And that those of us without that are somewhat doomed to always have these complicated feelings swirling around in our minds. Wondering why and how things could have been different if this/that had happened another way, and on and on...

Whatever it is, hang in there, moglow. Let the guilt go, if you can. It's not yours anyway. It's hers.

Thx, Cat - all of that is so true! We somehow know what's lacking and are seeking it, even though it's completely unfamiliar and we're working in a blind. Interestingly enough I watch all of you here every day and see that we learned that lesson and pass it on to each other without hesitation. My prayer is that we can get where we consistently apply it to ourselves the way we do for everyone else!

...And some of us, because it's all we've ever known, become addicted to the drama. When we rip it out of our life there's this big, boring empty spot where they used to sit and chatter nonstop. When I went NC with uBPDm, I'm a bit ashamed to say that I missed the drama. There were times I was bored out of my skull at work and would call her just to let her ramble because I was slowly losing my mind with nothing to do. (Heck, by then I'd deep cleaned my entire office, and since work had to do with dirt by its nature that could take days.) But the more I came Out of the FOG, the more I realized I was just trapping myself in a nasty cycle. She had become my freaking hobby!

Sad but true for me as well. Mother had definite drama cycles and I participated far more often than I should. I've stretched it out further than I ever thought I'd be able to and maybe that's part of where I am right now. No contact means no drama, it's an adjustment for sure.

...I remember reading somewhere that the drama becomes addictive and you may not even be aware that you are addicted to that cycle.  I am not sure if I was addicted but I did have to break myself away from it.  I think we spend so long thinking about it, it just becomes a normal part of our life and day.  Its a game and we get drawn into playing.  What move are they making, what do I do now, if I do A what will the response to that be or if I do B will that work better.  You know what, it doesn't even matter what you do, it won't change the big game.

In the end you need to turn inward to yourself.  Work out how you want to live, where do you find peace and do that.  It doesn't matter if the other party is upset or what they say.  Nothing else has worked so why not tune into yourself.

To add, my MIL went through a stage of spending so much she actually got behind on bills.  Why was she spending so much.  She was buying gifts for us, for our house ie decorating our house.  I didn't like it, when she found that out I didn't like it, she doubled her effort to buy us multiple gifts a week, ongoing for months, I mean gifts are a PD favourite.  In the end, she got behind in bills and with her credit card.  That's the thing with PD's, you can't stop them playing their nonsense games, you simply have to remove yourself.  In MIL's case she spent until she simply couldn't afford it anymore.  I told her I didn't have room for everything she was buying and she gleefully bought more and more.  I threw it all away and stopped talking to her about it, she got a gift I said nothing or a bland thank you and then I threw it away, when she stopped getting that reaction, she stopped spending her money however she was already in debt.  She actually allowed herself to get into debt to get that reaction. You can't help them, you can't tell them.

The financial fracas is a concern, mainly because I can't and won't be the one to bail her out when it all implodes. She's not moving in with me and vice versa - I've worked too hard for my peace and my own home to have it disrupted. [Plus it's on the second floor and she can't maneuver stairs!] There's been no thought or preparation on her part, for the time she can't do it on her own anymore or needs help. Heck, I understand she recently cashed in a life insurance policy to pay down credit cards - who DOES that at 82?? She can't recoup that money, her income isn't going up at this stage in the game. So yes, there's resentment as well, that we'll be left to clean the debris she's left behind.

moglow,
I agree with Andeza. It hurts because it's supposed to. It's a parenting style that believes in punishment and relishes in that power.

The natural concept of family is topsy turvy in disorder-land.  We grew up feeling like this  again and again and again. I constantly find myself wondering why my parents use the closest people around them as punching bags? They perceive that as normal. Healthy families understand that the inner circle of family is meant to be supportive, not perfect, but at the basic level, loving. Disorder-land goes for denial, punishment and anything goes if I'm in a bad mood.
...
Step back a bit and tell yourself that you deserve better and it's very unlikely she will be the healthy parent you deserve. Treat yourself with some tenderness. This is a loss and it hurts. I'm sorry. But you can find that love within and with other people. Our toxic parents though. It's doubtful they will ever realize what true love is.

Y'all really know how to get to the heart of things! Mother maintained that this was "normal" when everything inside me screamed that it's not. I get that's what she knew with her family, but you'd think at some point she'd realize that's not necessarily the case for everyone. Yeah no. Her self involvement doesn't all for reflection, any indication that her thought processes need serious work.

I doubt I know what love is, even though now I can at least recognize what it's *not*. I hate that we've experienced so much of the same, are only now really accepting that what we've known just isn't normal and we don't have to live that way. GETTING to that place is a bit more of a challenge than I realized.

[moglow]

I'm not yet where I'm willing to delete mother's old voicemails, and right now I'm kind of glad. I just sat and replayed several I've saved from the past few years - all have a harsh snippy tone, threats of "if something doesn't change [i.e. if I don't kowtow to her demands!] i'll no longer be part of your life," snarls about apparently her cell phone has been blocked [um no, I was very up front and open about that when I did it. There was no "apparently" about it!], etc. And yes,  threats of disconnecting her home phone if I won't unblock her cell, and how she called when I'm at work or text because I'm so hard to talk to - all planned and deliberate on her part. Those messages one after the other were spat at me even when we'd clearly not talked in a while, her claims that I didn't care. She wanted responses, return calls to THAT? Piss poor behavior = resulting consequences, mommie dearest!!

As y'all suggested above had she used a dab of self-reflection and changed the way she talked to/about me, we wouldn't be where we are now. I wouldn't have grown to dread that message indicator or ultimately blocked the ugliness from my life. It does sting that she's okay with shutting me down, but let's be clear - it's no loss to her other than the loss of an audience. And I never had anything resembling warmth and compassion from her so I'm really not sure why I continue to whinge about it. "Because she's my mother ..." The gift that keeps on giving [insert rolling eyes here].

[Hepatica]

moglow,

Forgive me for being blunt, but your mother's behaviour is bullying. There is no love in threatening people and prodding them along with snippy, harsh tones. Having her a distance, and even better, no contact at all, is the most self-loving thing you could do for yourself.

If they'd only learn to be loving, we'd be so happy to love them back, but they don't seem to get it. Obligation goes only so far, and when it becomes to the point of self-harm, we should be allowed to throw obligation out the window. 

[moglow]

Hepatica, no apologies needed - you're more than welcome to call em like you see em where she's concerned! Perfect term for her: Mother IS a bully, always has been. I can remember her laughing about the way she walked all over her mother and siblings, other family members not being allowed to correct her or contradict her in any way. I think that's where her PD came in, she grew up all entitled with everyone catering to and tippy toeing around her, afraid they'd set her off. I think mother lashed out and abused us because that's literally what she'd done all her life, not because it had been done to her.

But yes, some of those voicemails are at least two years old or possibly further back. This is not a new thing for her - me pushing back and saying No? THAT is new. My resentments of her and her treatment of me/others is a poison I have to excise from my life. If that means never seeing or speaking with her again, then that's what it will be.

Thank you! 

[Call Me Cordelia]

I agree with the suggestion to curtail discussion of your mother's latest folderol with your brother. It appears to be feeding the rumination/sucking you back in to the drama.

If she gets herself in trouble, she will have to deal with it on her own. That's all there is to it. If she chooses to indulge magical thinking that there will be no consequences, or Moglow will do her "duty" and take care of everything for her despite all evidence, that's her choice.

Somehow you still care because... well you're a good human. It feels wrong because it is wrong... but it's not you who are wrong. It's the messed up pattern of abuse that has made a loving relationship with her absolutely impossible. It's also grief. If your mother ends up in real trouble that's regrettable, truly. But it doesn't make it your responsibility or even give you ability to make it any different. I'm sorry.

You seem well aware that the only place to go from here is acceptance. That's not something you can force on a timeline as I understand it.

On a different note, is there any way to avoid being stuck with the inevitable mess of affairs at her death?

[bloomie]

Moglow - the thing that NC or distance from a mom like you have and like I had reveals in ways we simply cannot not see.. is we are not missed. There was never a place, space, room for us in their lives.

In my own case, I was unwanted and a problem and was told that many many times. I was an inconvenience. And if I spoke up for myself or took action to distance myself from abuse, such as you have done, I was cruelly punished and set aside.

Facing that fully and acknowledging that core truth was a kind of final letting go for me.

Part of that has been seeing how ugly, selfish, shallow and malicious my mother's choices and behaviors toward me have been which speaks of deep character issues and moral failure that is a lot to process.

It is no little thing for a mother to verbally and emotionally abuse her loving daughter to such a degree you have to block her cell phone.

Why on earth does what she thinks weigh so heavily on my mind and how do I shut it off??? I get that part of it is a lifetime of training and reinforcement, the belief that I'm [and others are] responsible for her feewings. All the stuff is still ebbing and flowing through my soul like waves ...

It is truly an epic battle to beat back the conditioning and waves and turn and begin to climb to higher ground and refuse to look back and further engage. You are getting there. And we are with you along that steep trail up and away to freedom, clean air, clear views, acceptance of what you cannot change and peace.

[Boat Babe]

I echo everything that people have said. You, we, are the victims of child, then adult, abuse by the people who should have loved and nurtured us. We have lived with cognitive dissonance all our lives. We are living with varying degrees of C-PTSD. We are still unpicking our FOG in order to protect ourselves. We have been left with some deep core wounds and some less than helpful coping strategies.

We are also total fucking heroes. We have chosen to be different from our PD parents. We have chosen to be good people. We have raised our kids (if we have them) with love and a reasonable dose of sanity. We are good to our friends, colleagues and neighbors. We work on our personal growth and healing. We support our fellow travellers here. We are pretty awesome people.

Moglow, I hear your pain and frustration. This too shall pass. 💖💖💖

[Hilltop]

Y'all really know how to get to the heart of things! Mother maintained that this was "normal" when everything inside me screamed that it's not. I get that's what she knew with her family, but you'd think at some point she'd realize that's not necessarily the case for everyone. Yeah no. Her self involvement doesn't all for reflection, any indication that her thought processes need serious work.

For me this has been hard as well, I couldn't really understand why there was no self reflection from my own mother.  Couldn't she see what she was doing, or how her actions affected others.  It was really hard for me to admit that perhaps she doesn't care.

I'm glad the saved messages were beneficial for you.  To hear and understand the cruel tone and remind yourself of why you can't keep doing it.  What I found really interesting is that in prior messaging your mother has threatened to disconnect her landline if you block her so you now know that she has done this to punish you.  I mean what does she think, that you will be left shaking in your boots and come running back, yep in her mind, disconnecting her landline will be enough to pull you into line.  Its punishment. 

Its not an easy relationship to disengage from.  Its not an easy relationship to accept that it is built on neglect or cruelty. It takes time to work your way through all the emotions, to keep going.  As you said if at any stage in your mothers life she had done the work you are doing now, the relationship may have been different.  Its frustrating but ultimately they either can't see it or choose not to see it.  We don't have to be left punished in these relationships because they didn't do the work or the self reflection. Your mother chose her path and you get to choose yours.

[SonofThunder]

Hepatica, no apologies needed - you're more than welcome to call em like you see em where she's concerned! Perfect term for her: Mother IS a bully, always has been. I can remember her laughing about the way she walked all over her mother and siblings, other family members not being allowed to correct her or contradict her in any way. I think that's where her PD came in, she grew up all entitled with everyone catering to and tippy toeing around her, afraid they'd set her off. I think mother lashed out and abused us because that's literally what she'd done all her life, not because it had been done to her.

But yes, some of those voicemails are at least two years old or possibly further back. This is not a new thing for her - me pushing back and saying No? THAT is new. My resentments of her and her treatment of me/others is a poison I have to excise from my life. If that means never seeing or speaking with her again, then that's what it will be.

Thank you! 

Im jumping in here late in the game and this may sound cold, but its true for my uPDfather.  I had to think about this a lot when I heard it stated to a caller by the wonderfully blunt (and many times correct) Dr Laura Schlessinger.   

The caller kept referring to her 'parent'' and 'dad' in her story and this person's emotional attachment that dragged her into continual emotional abuse and manipulation by him.  Dr Laura asked her what makes this man a 'parent'.... a 'dad'?   There was silence on the other end of the call, so Laura continued on with what makes someone a parent and a dad, and abuse and manipulation weren't in the job description.  Therefore, she stated this man was no more her 'parent' or 'dad' than a similar-aged grumpy man who lives down the block.

Dr Laura stated that this man did 'father' a child (verb), but he was not, based on the caller's description of him over a lifetime, a 'parent' or 'dad'.  Therefore, Dr. Laura referred to him as a "sperm-donor" to her mom/mother and that she was raised by her mom/mother and sadly had this 'sperm-donor' living in the home. 

When my uNPD father/sperm-donor uses his connection with me as a way to emotionally manipulate me for his own gain and self-presevation, i always remember what Dr Laura said and ask myself if its true.  Sure, there were times when things were calm and even enjoyable around my father, but parent, dad, friend he did not do, but rather manipulated those privileged titles he earned, for his own benefit by 'fathering' a child and 'locking-in' my caretaker mother as his lifetime servant.

So, not sure if this concept would also help your emotions and brain-energy output in these situations, to consider what makes a woman a 'parent' or 'mom'.  If she gave birth to you, she 'mothered' (verb) a child but was she just really an egg and womb donor for her own benefit?  If she adopted you, was she really a 'parent', a 'mom' or a foster 'mother' who did it for her own benefit (potentially locking in your dad also)? 

I sure never remember giving a rats-behind about my childhood friend's father or the older man I have not met, who lives down the block from me now, and they may be PD's as well, for all I know.  Would i help that older man down the street, to get out of a bind he could not solve himself?  Sure i would, until he was an ass to me or my family and then he would not get any of my time or concern. 

So when the emotions start to boil up hot regarding my fathers actions/reactions, I relate to Dr. Laura's words and they simmer down a great deal colder. 

SoT

[moglow]

SoT I'm not a huge Dr Laura fan but she does have a way of calling a spade a spade! I grew up and have had it thrust at me all my life "but she's your mother, the only one you'll ever have..." So it's hard to unhear that even now  knowing who she is abd what she's chosen. The voices in my head ask in the reverse,  if she's the only one doesn't that make all of this exponentially worse?! Why is there so little recognition/admission that *the parent* made these choices, the quick assertion that we/children of must somehow be "the bigger person" and make it work etc?

My older brother recently shared links to Rick Warren's podcasts on forgiveness, where he speaks of resentment and generational bitterness. I'd not really framed my feelings as such, how deeply I resent the mother I was given and how she treated us all our lives, her  erratic and unreasonable performances, the extreme rages out of nowhere that fueled the violent episodes. The only consistency we had was the sheer inconsistency of mother's reactions to every and anything.

Anyhoo, Pastor Rick's message was to forgive and keep on forgiving, BUT that doesn't rebuild trust or the relationships. Forgiveness is so WE can heal and stop allowing it to eat us alive. Very different message from what I've always been taught - forgive and jump right back in with my clean conscience knowing where it will go if they don't choose to change.


Forgiveness isn't carte blanche for more abuse, in other words. Light bulb moment!!! I'm choosing to walk away from her and more harm, finally learning that it really is okay.

[SonofThunder]

MoGlow,

I fully understand your response.  I agree, Dr Laura does not mince words and her version of 'shock therapy' sometimes on certain subjects (non-marital) gets the attention of the caller at the right time in the call, so Dr Laura can insert some harsh truths regarding the situation, from her doctoral training, decades of experience in dealing with people on live radio and her past private practice. 

Not defending her in any way and in fact, I believe she is out of date in areas of her psychological education regarding PD's in the last decades vs when she was in private practice.  At the same time, I highly disagree with many of her marital theories revolving around the wife being/not being the 'girlfriend' of her husband and that husbands are simple one-track sex, provider and protector machines that just need a girlfriend haha.  But imo there are some truths to glean from some of her advice on certain subjects and for me, when i hear them, I run them up against my religious beliefs and consider, keep or discard.  I will leave that comment there since this isn't the religion board.   

Forgiveness is an interesting subject and for me, its a deep religious/faith subject so again i will not divulge certain concepts here. In general, I believe that forgiveness, is me giving over my people issue(s) to another more capable to handle, so as you said "WE can heal and stop allowing it to eat us alive."   I do that without the people who wronged me knowing, and they surely are not getting any notion of 'off-the-hook' from me.

Looking back now, and knowing that my father's harsh mindset has always been self-serving.  Now, with the Out of the FOG lenses on while retracing my childhood, I am able to flip certain situations over and see the real self-motives. Even things I perceived as positive, were simply trophies for my father, and extreme and harsh expectations and 'training' (abuse) was that his children would become a source of large pride-trophies for him.  Therefore I will remember the idea of Dr Laura's words and consider why this man's actions and reactions (or lack thereof) can still mentally affect me so much.  Again, my religious beliefs and therefore religious teaching I consult, will provide some answers to this 'unchosen' connection i have with my father vs others, but in certain times, for reduced anxiety and shedding,  it helps me to think about him as the asinine older man who lives down the block and let it go (forgive). 

I wish you the best with your search for acceptance and like you I'm learning to walk away.  I always desire to 'love' other humans as best possible and to me that means to desire and possibly assist in what is BEST for another person. In some cases, BEST is my walking away and allowing hardship of consequence to do its fine millstone grinding. 

SoT

[Andeza]

Thats good, Moglow, and an important distinction to make. Naturally our abusers want to achieve a state of forgiveness (somehow without ever actually apologizing?  ) and then we're supposed to forget how they are, how they're treated us, etc. That way they can jump right back into their old behaviors and get back to abusing us with no delay and zero guilt because we forgave them... They see forgiveness as license to continue abusing us as usual.

[Call Me Cordelia]

Absolutely, Andeza. Catch-22 says if it's forgiven, it can't be that much of a problem anyway. If it's not forgiven, then you're a bad person.

[moglow]

Andeza, I think that's where I've kept hitting a wall in my mind - the idea that forgiveness seemed to mean that I must reopen that door, that I'm lacking (yet again) with my refusal to put myself in that position. Plus mother never so much as hinted that she owed apologies to anyone. They must indeed excuse her as it was all their fault in the first place!
Putting it in THIS context, that it's nothing to do with her possible reaction, but that it's about and completely for my own healing ... All of a sudden that's mind blowing really, all fresh and new and not just my supposedly selfish mind.

...the thing that NC or distance from a mom like you have and like I had reveals in ways we simply cannot not see.. is we are not missed. There was never a place, space, room for us in their lives.

In my own case, I was unwanted and a problem and was told that many many times. I was an inconvenience. And if I spoke up for myself or took action to distance myself from abuse, such as you have done, I was cruelly punished and set aside.

Facing that fully and acknowledging that core truth was a kind of final letting go for me.

Part of that has been seeing how ugly, selfish, shallow and malicious my mother's choices and behaviors toward me have been which speaks of deep character issues and moral failure that is a lot to process

.

Somehow in all this time I didn't see the very real similarities in our stories. You've seemed light-years ahead of me in growth and healing - and in forgiveness! - and I can't help but wonder what brought you to this place, the battles you fought to get here. I salute you, really I do.

Thank you all for continuing to be my anchors and giving me much needed shoves along the way. Y'all have become a huge part of my chosen family and I'm proud to know you.