things I need to say

[SonofThunder]

  to Bloomies post. 

"I will finish out the necessary details of this terrible circumstance tomorrow. But I need to also begin to heal. I may look for professional help, as much as I am opposed to man's wisdom. I will find a wise and gentle person who loves the word of God and can extract me from the mire of hurt and abuse. I want to live a full life."

tragedy or hope,

There is much wisdom in your writing.  Adding to it now, the wisdom and insight of this experience.  I admire that you accept and love yourself for who you are; where you are at this time and what you may experience in the future as you begin your healing journey.  I also respect that you understand that God has blessed others in their occupations, with the professional talents and gifts to come alongside us in our journey to heal, both mentally and physically.   If, in my time on this Earth, i find myself loosed from the emotional bonds of life with PD's, i will also seek counseling in the healing process.  My engines have been pushed hard for many decades and when/if my time comes for retirement from my emotional, physical and financial hyper-focus on both myself and the PD's in my life, i will take this machine into the shop for a complete tune-up, worn-out parts replacement and restoration, while i focus on calm Sunday drives there forward. 

You stated the service this week was a military one.  Therefore a hat-tip also to your husband for his service to country.  No matter whether he had a PD or not, i respect the service of those who choose to defend country.  I have not served and believe i was not called to serve in that manner, but the service of others allows me the freedom to pursue my own calling.  Therefore again, thanks to your husband for his service. 

I will continue thought and prayer for your forward movement in healing and comfort and yes, putting faces to names in Heaven will be a joy. 

SoT

[tragedy or hope]

Thank you SoT for the hat tip.

This became his identity in his later years. Some due to so many health issues from agent orange, which ultimately made his fight with covid impossible to win.

I visited the cemetery today. I had sadness, but somehow things seemed right. It is a beautiful peaceful place and I did for him what I could to honor what he felt was important to him. The solemnity of the service and dignity were his values, when he was able to seem normal.

He was an honorable man. Never overtly unfaithful, (in his value system not mine. He hurt me often with his flirtatious nature.) prided himself on "doing the right thing" a gentleman and chivalrous always, even when it was no longer in style. Those are not untrue statements which I will miss him for, but that is only a part of him.

At the same time,  he was violent in word and deed, hostile, vengeful, moody, unkind, sometimes hateful, abusive, disinterested, cunning, often boring, and I spent many days feeling generally uncomfortable with him. I even told him that I could not understand why I felt so uncomfortable with him, even when we had peaceful moments. I think after he retired, I had no time to regroup and I felt like he had permeated my mind. I seriously wondered if he was not a Christian by the inconsistency of his behavior with me and the rest of the world.

As a result, we really did not pray together or study together. I could not share my convictions without him feeling threatened. He would pray with anyone else, but only quick expected prayers at meals and travel etc. His prayers to me were kind of rote, and I felt no connection with him spiritually. How could I? This past year, he had communion with his men's group, which he initiated, but would never offer to do it with me. When I told him it bothered me, one day he set it up and it was very uncomfortable, spiritually and otherwisel

So, I have deduced, I have done well by him with his sons to not besmirch his memory, though my sons have said little about him as a person except that they loved him. I feel I have done my job before God to allow my sons to have a father, his grandchildren love him... and have a few memories they cherish.

I know my sons cherish me. They are/have been taking such good care of me. I am humbled by their tender care. Anything I ask, they too will do. Plans are in the works to help me regularly. They all have families.

This they learned from their father.

[SonofThunder]

tragedyorhope,

Im sorry that you had such a difficult experience with your husband, not only in your marital relationship but also in your hoped spiritual relationship with your husband. Many years back, before my coming Out of the FOG, but knowing something was weirdly wrong, i gave up trying to include anything spiritual with my wife.  Like your husband, she participated in religious activities and still to this day, attends a weekly ladies Bible study, but is very (i like your word) 'threatened' by sharing anything religious or faith related with me.  Now, understanding NPD/BPD fairly well, i am able to connect the dots on how 'religion' is utilized by PD's, for a variety of PD trait reasons and i fully experience them in my PD wife and father. 

I am purposefully separating my words 'religion' and 'faith' as i write.  Like your husband, my wife participates in religious activities and for whatever motive, i dont care.  Although I am not a judge in any way, of her inner-faith and inner-relationship with her creator, i do believe i have a right and healthy, protective obligation to myself,  to correctly  judge her religious activities to be a hypocritical facade-show, because i experience the opposite from her and i desire to boundary-protect myself in this way.  Therefore, I choose to proactively separate others' religious activity from faith/relationship and i am emotionally freed in doing so and handing that judgement squarely to their creator.  I am also mentally freed in my choice to judge the facade experiences and choose to proactively disconnect myself from my wifes religious practices, which i have done.     

With regard to your husband, i read your past desire in your writing; to have a faith connection with him, but he did not, and you are not alone in your experiences and I'm sorry that occurred.  If my wife precedes me in death, i want to have hope not in the 'religion' which i believe i understood, but in the inner faith and relationship which i was not able to determine, nor qualified to judge, and desire to meet my wife again in eternity, washed clean from her PD and finally get to know her. 

Im wishing you the same hope, now that your husband has preceded you, so you may be able to peacefully rest that his creator knows his true heart, and you can have hope in a future healed reunion. Simultaneously, i will hope for you to continue to steadily shed his wrongful treatment of you, understand the things he did well (you mention his chivalry for example) and his inability on this Earth, to share with you in areas of your desire in a marital relationship. 

Thank you for continuing to share in your journey. 

Thinking about and praying for you,

SoT

[Worthy of Care]

T or H: I relate to a great deal of what you have shared. I feel care for you and am praying for you. I think you are doing so well at being honest with yourself about what your relationship with your H was like, and also doing your best to be wise and honoring of your sons' relationships with him.

Jesus does see you, Tragedy or Hope. This song came to my mind. https://youtu.be/04uKAWKEoG8 (Nicole Mullen).

[Mary]

Amazing song Worthy! Thanks for sharing. It really fits this thread.

[Mary]

What is going on is surreal. My children are reminiscing in a strange way. Other people outside our family are saying such positive things about their deceased father, one of my sons has taken their comments to define who his father was. He told me he just did not know how much others loved him.

While his father was in those relationships, he was extremely cruel to me emotionally over and over.

Once our children leave the house, they see so much less. We sheilded them as children. I think they can forget or never realized the extent of the tension. My adult son understands in ways others cannot, yet has no clue what all I went through to give him a happy childhood. Given that you are not besmirching your husband to them, and they have not lived with the PD drama daily for some time, I can see how they also might have a somewhat skewed memory of their father. You have a lonesome road of grief in this regard. All the more comforting to know that God sees.

I had an opposite yet similar experience when my 2-yr-old disabled daughter passed over 20 yrs ago. Noone could know or understand the friendship bond that she and I shared. I had lost my best friend who was there through such dark days with uPDh. It was a loss noone else could understand because they did not know the depth of the circumstance. People would tell me what a blessing it was that she could go. God knew and saw though. I did not understand why He took her.

Sorry if I'm making this too much about me. I just thought it was an interesting contrast. The grieving process is so complex and hard to go through. Wishing you comfort,
Mary

[tragedy or hope]

I am thankful for your honesty. All of you. So comforting. I feel like you are walking through this with me in a way no one else could understand. I am sorry Mary for your loss. What was her name? She must be in your heart daily.

SoT... it sounds as if you have a strong resolve about even the religious aspect, which I don't think I had gotten to. But you are right, faith is very different than religion. And you are correct.
I always had questions about his faith walk, but I too am not the judge. Other people saw fruit I never really saw in sincerity but I too feel it is not my business.

Worthy thank you for the link... I wept when I heard that song.

Some of my grieving is also about what I did not have. Not just the loss of someone who at times was loveable and endearing.

I feel embarrassment and shame for what I allowed him to say to me, do to me.

I just did what I felt led to do. The song had meaning for me, because I spent my adult life longing to be seen by him for who I am.

I did the right thing to stay. I will do the wrong thing if I judge myself I know that. However, I think if I told my whole story, you would say, "what was wrong with her!" Why would she stay?

My convictions. Though God does not expect us to give up our lives for someone else; that was done by Him. I learned to give up self, yes, to a fault but I believe that will be blessed back to me by my Lord.

I like SoT's clear distinctions about judgement. I have found my sons to be very sound in their comments and responses to some of my grieving comments. I don't know if it's in their DNA or otherwise, but the perspective men put on situations IMO shed a great deal of light and open up new thought to me.

I see today, my first day alone, that I have always been alone. Not much is different than an occasional interruption. One big difference is privacy. I do not have to hide my tears, my texts, my letters, my  zoom meetings  my "Out of the FOG" page... whatever I was using to keep balanced.

My lack of trust in him regarding my feelings, caused me to create my own world without him. He knew less and less about me when I found "Out of the FOG" because he only gave cursory consideration to anything I said or felt.  It was turned around to him and his feelings most of the time. If I was sad, he was sadder etc.

That's all for now. I hope it is meaningful to someone here.

I know this... after 4 weeks in the hospital with 10 IV's beeping machines and being sedated 24/7, in his last moments and heartbeats- with all his strength, he squeezed my hand and it felt as strong to me as when he was well.

I believe he truly loved me but did not know how to separate himself from himself. He could not let me see what I already knew... his weakness and defective heart (if you will). After 50 years, it's impossible to hide. God rest his soul.

[SonofThunder]

Tragedy or hope,

You wrote:

" I see today, my first day alone, that I have always been alone. Not much is different than an occasional interruption. One big difference is privacy. I do not have to hide my tears, my texts, my letters, my  zoom meetings  my "Out of the FOG" page... whatever I was using to keep balanced."

"My lack of trust in him regarding my feelings, caused me to create my own world without him. He knew less and less about me when I found "Out of the FOG" because he only gave cursory consideration to anything I said or felt.  It was turned around to him and his feelings most of the time. If I was sad, he was sadder etc."

There is SO much truth there describing the alone-together life with a PD and now your experiences afterward.  You were alone emotionally but not alone physically.  In order to keep the peace you had to be protectively private, yet he was already emotionally distant even though physically close. 

I will assume your body, as well as your mind, is continuing to adjust to the lack of constant readiness and proactive protection regarding privacy and carefully executed actions and reactions.  It is this freedom that I often think about, but sadly sometimes it comes through wrenching loss, as you have now experienced.  It is always educational for me to read another's experiences from the other side of death or divorce with a PD.

We Out of the FOG, toolbox-handy non's really do carefully live in a lion's enclosure and we get so accustomed to living there that to the onlookers, it looks as if the lion is tame and we are comfortable.  Not until we or the lion is removed do we realize just how cautiously and 'by-the-book' we had to operate while living there, ready to fight or flight at any moment, because the lion is a truly a wild animal at heart and can lash out at any moment.  Thank you for sharing your experiences and although very sorry for you for the loss, I'm also joyed to read you are pleased that you stayed true to your convictions and now also are starting to experience a more relaxed life again outside the lion enclosure. 

And wow, that last paragraph you wrote:

"I believe he truly loved me but did not know how to separate himself from himself. He could not let me see what I already knew... his weakness and defective heart (if you will). After 50 years, it's impossible to hide. God rest his soul."   

That is quite a benediction.

SoT

[tragedy or hope]

Thank you SoT for your support,

Revisiting the earlier post of religion vrs. faith... My stomach turned today. I recieved a 4 page letter from a young woman who admired him so much when he was her bible teacher for several years until the age of 16.. when she heard about my loss she had to write me to tell me how wonderful he was.

She also wrote how she cried when she recieved a text from her father  in a worship. service that he had passed... now at least 6 years since she had him as her bible teacher. My gut tells me she had a crush on him and he as a typical unpdh procured the attention of several of his young students. She is not the only one who seemed to be dreamy over him. I have not heard from any young men in his class, ever.

At one point in our past location, two sisters were so enamoured with him that their father, who knew him... arranged a brief meeting with his wife because she wanted to meet this hero of a man.
Times before he would be off to his religious group he would be rude and hateful to me over simple things... NEVER missing a meeting. Coming home to be as cruel as when he left or not giving me the time of day. Too tired. I would have called him the odd inappropriate interest in the girls and he knew it. It was one of his many little secrets.

He did speak once of having lunch with some of the other male blble teachers when they discussed one particular girl who I believe they all had a crush on her. I felt it was disgusting then and now.

This so irks me. This young woman sent me scriptures. I know she was reaching out to my grief but I believe after 6 years of not seeing him and having that kind of reaction... just not normal. Its as if he walked on water like no one else on earth ever affected her.

Once we had a long drive in the car and he had been particularly manipulative, avoidant and unkind. When we arrived at our destination, he invited me to have a beverage and indicated he would have something. I ordered, then he declined and told me he changed his mind. I was not able to take the drink out of a certain area, so he found me a seat like a child to sit and drink it alone. He said he wanted to walk around.

I felt awkward alone so I got up to follow... as he turned a corner there was a pretty young girl stocking shelves. He had already started his speel about her wearing a cross around her neck and what it meant to her. When he saw me come around the corner, he stopped the conversation and moved on, leaving me with the young woman. She started to tell us to have a nice day, she could see there was some tension by the way he walked away. I actually told her, "he likes to talk to pretty girls.." he heard me and was indignant the rest of the time we had to wait for someone to arrive. He would not talk to me or stand near me. I enraged him because it was true and we both knew it. He used religion to get dozens of conversations going mostly with women young and old who wore crosses.

I am powerless, and once again, I see his disrespect toward me and I am pained just a little more. He could not help himself unless he repented which he could not do.. and so he hurts me from the grave in a strange way.

This make me so sad. I imagine more will be revealed, than just this one. I need to prayerfully embrace myself and just work on healing. This situation really confuses my grief.

[square]

No insight, but I'm reading along and my stomach hurts a but. Because I know if I'm ever in a position to have parted from my husband somehow, there will be a lot of poison to process, and it will be quite painful.

I assume at some point the worst will, probably not be healed as such, but fade in urgency. Not hurt as much when it pops up.

[JustKeepTrying]

tragedy or hope,

I am so sorry for your loss.  My sincerest condolences. 

I often think my marriage (32 years) as a chimera.  What I often hoped for, wished for and believed but it was something else.  My xOCPDh had those NPD tendencies - (flirted a lot with young women which I found a bit creepy) but that is not what I wanted to address.  You are mourning his lack of physical presence, the way he died, your ideals and hopes and all that you wanted and didn't or couldn't get; mourning your guilt and anger and frustration at not feeling seen or heard.  You went through the highest of the high and lowest of the low and now there isn't a physical person there to recognize you and the fact that you survived.  You are mourning the love you had and still have - I too love my ex.  I always will.  I know that if he passed others would remark on his this or that - all of which would be in total contrast to the abuse that poured on me.  It's crazy-making.

I admire your faith and I see you.  We all do.  We are all here for you.  I will pray for you and for your husband's soul.  For all of your family.  I pray that you will heal and find peace.  He is holding you in His hand with His grace, wisdom and love.

[GentleSoul]

I am so sorry for your loss. I have been crying as I read the heartfelt posts.

My uPD husband passed a few months ago, like you I was there and held his hand until the end.

It has been difficult to process the loss as it is such a huge range of emotions I have been feeling due to his PD behaviours.

Sending warmth, strength and prayers to you.

[tragedy or hope]

Thank you Gentle Soul. I have been reading some of your posts also. I am so sorry for your loss. I see you have found the bittersweet in it.

Today I grieved for me. Sad that I spent so many years with someone who mistreated me, and yet I loved him, On a certain level he was not always that cruel person. That's what kept me hoping, like a child. We married as children looking for security. So we stayed together.

I too am feeling much peace. More important, I feel more like myself, and a certain joy than I have felt in decades. I find myself smiling and talking to people I don't know with sincerity and really enjoying myself.

It's not that I did not do this before, but it was if unpdh had some kind of control over my mind and I was always reserving or holding back some of me, kind of like on automatic pilot.

He is still in my head everyday, but I am doing what I want and there is no worry about what he will say or do. Sometimes when he was love bombing, all I could think of was how to get away from him. Since that was his primary MO... I spent a lot of time feeling like I had to run, or get away. He was not seeking me, he was seeking the satisfaction of once again playing with my well-being like a cat with a mouse. Interest, disinterest... kindness, meanness, pretend joy, immediately morose at will. Keeping me surprised, off balance, unsure of where I stood, etc... forcing me to move into MC which took all the life out of the room

This was the same man I had 3 beautiful children with, socialized, worshipped, vacationed etc... but as the years passed and we became more isolated (partly due to my non-compliance with him as I got more aware) he became more unavailable.

I am really not sure what I am grieving. I think I am grieving a construct in my head of what I wished it was but was never going to be.

I think I am also grieving, the person other people keep telling me he was, a kind of hero to them, because I didn't get that person from the heart. It was all I ever wanted. I often told him I would live in a tent with him if we could just be partners. He would/could never be that with me. Breaks my heart.

What a cruel joke on me, never giving me what was easy for me to give to him.
Simply to love with an open heart. It's just heartbreaking. He could be very charming, romantic, endearing, but there was always a caveat; something must be in it for him.[/i

[Worthy of Care]

I'm feeling sadness, anger at your H, and compassion for you as I read what you shared.

[GentleSoul]

Thank you, Tragedy or Hope, for your kind words and understanding. 

Bittersweet is an accurate description, I feel. 

I relate to what you share about being isolated from each other due to our non-compliance. 

To save my sanity I lived in Medium Chill but it did indeed cause a void between us but it was one that was sadly needed. 

He wanted me to comply with all his alcoholic and PD thinking.   It would have destroyed me.

All the best to you. 

[tragedy or hope]

I am sad, and yet, I feel so free. My mind no longer is in static mode. I can think more clearly and I am no longer focused on mental escape.

I am having friends over for lunch today. I did not invite anyone into my home for 6 yrs. other than family. I think because I felt I had to hide something, or protect myself from more hurt. My unpdh made everything extremely complicated, so much so that it was exasperating trying to accomplish anything MY way. His fingers, thoughts, criticisms were always in the mix.

I spent the whole day yesterday preparing. I believe in preparing a place for people. IE: Jesus example of "I go to prepare a place for you..." because it speaks of love and desire of the person's presence. I learned this early in my married life.

So I set the table, rearranged chairs, straightened etc. as much as I felt I wanted to do. Today I will receive my guests with joy instead of angst. Somehow, today I feel good enough. I have not felt that way in decades.

I hope they feel the love that I am trying to express to them.

Of course I feel sad that my unpdh is no longer here. I feel sad for the terrible way he had to pass and for a few sweet times, when he let his guard down ever so briefly.

We who decide to commit have to accept either their behavior or their absence. But our souls are left to wrestle with the consequences either way.

[Worthy of Care]

We who decide to commit have to accept either their behavior or their absence. But our souls are left to wrestle with the consequences either way.

  Yes. Ouch.



I hope you have a lovely time with your friends.

[GentleSoul]

I am sad, and yet, I feel so free. My mind no longer is in static mode. I can think more clearly and I am no longer focused on mental escape.

I am having friends over for lunch today. I did not invite anyone into my home for 6 yrs. other than family. I think because I felt I had to hide something, or protect myself from more hurt. My unpdh made everything extremely complicated, so much so that it was exasperating trying to accomplish anything MY way. His fingers, thoughts, criticisms were always in the mix.

I spent the whole day yesterday preparing. I believe in preparing a place for people. IE: Jesus example of "I go to prepare a place for you..." because it speaks of love and desire of the person's presence. I learned this early in my married life.

So I set the table, rearranged chairs, straightened etc. as much as I felt I wanted to do. Today I will receive my guests with joy instead of angst. Somehow, today I feel good enough. I have not felt that way in decades.

I hope they feel the love that I am trying to express to them.

Of course I feel sad that my unpdh is no longer here. I feel sad for the terrible way he had to pass and for a few sweet times, when he let his guard down ever so briefly.

We who decide to commit have to accept either their behavior or their absence. But our souls are left to wrestle with the consequences either way.

This, all of this. You speak my truth. 

Thank you for sharing so generously. 

[Mary]

"I believe he truly loved me but did not know how to separate himself from himself. He could not let me see what I already knew... his weakness and defective heart (if you will). After 50 years, it's impossible to hide. God rest his soul."

This statement sheds so much meaning on the whole circumstance. Just beautiful.

[GentleSoul]

If I may add and pick up on a beautiful point raised about no longer needing to focus on mental escape.

I am also starting to see that now.  So very much of my life was about distracting myself and finding relief from the mental stress.

I started to realise when I no longer enjoyed or was interested in the things I used to do, I then was able to see why.   I don't need them anymore.

There were a pure coping means.