Handing out Rope

[Lauren17]

I'm struggling with the best option for a parenting schedule for DD.
All the advice is to minimize her time with uNPD father. But the courts don't care, so 50/50 is the expectation.
He is currently playing the victim. Kind, loving, devoted father who is so very very sad about mean Lauren breaking up his family. He's playing it so well, that I'm starting to believe him.
I know that this isn't sustainable and DD is the one who will be hurt in the end.
So am trying to decide if I go with a 50/50 plan, wait until the facade collapses and the work to change the schedule?
Or do I press on in a SoT style truth war? Do I bring in the physc evaluator and the guardian ad litem and try to get him less time now?
Stbxh is undiagnosed, but meets almost all of the criteria for covert narcissism. So he doesn't rage, he seethes. He doesn't shout, he gives silent treatment. He doesn't call names, he  "jokes" until you cry. He very nicely and calmly lies and manipulates to get his way.  This is hard to see, and is the reason I'm not sure giving him enough rope will work.

[Stillirise]

Lauren,
I'm sorry you and your DD are in this position.  I was fortunate in one aspect of my divorce, in that updxh really wasn't interested in 50/50 custody, just money.  Knowing that, at filing, I initially offered the old standard, EOW + 1 day per week. His only counter was adding alternating weeks in the summer to that. I agreed.  He has never used all the days he's allotted, even with me having majority physical custody.  If he had countered by asking for 50/50, I can't say for sure what I would have done.  I also would have had difficulty proving he was unfit/unable to parent on a 50/50 schedule.  Knowing he would not be able to maintain that act, I might have agreed, let him "win" on the money aspect, then let him fail at 50/50.  I was really scared he would force that gamble, and I'm so glad he didn't. 

I never let on how major of a concern that was for me.  I let him waste energy on other issues that he cared more about than I did, because as a PD, he thought if it mattered to him, it must have been important to me, too.  Either way, I'm still the mean lady that took his money, and his time with his kids.

All of that said, you know your situation best.  If you think he's truly interested in, and will fully attempt to parent on a 50/50 schedule long term, and you feel this is not in the best interest of DD, then maybe you should stand your ground.  If you think it's a dog and pony show, about the appearance of being a good father, then maybe you have room to be more cooperative.  However, if/when he decides to shirk parenting duties down the road, you have to be prepared to pick up the slack, sometimes with short notice, and often with some inconvenience.  Take the high road while doing so, and don't give supply by showing you're flustered or inconvenienced about taking DD on his time.  That leaves you in a better position, should you have to revisit the arrangement in court. 

If/when his relationship with DD sours, you can know it had nothing to do with you.  You can focus on being the stable, reliable parent at every opportunity you're given.  Best wishes to you!

[SonofThunder]

Hello Lauren17,

I have zero experience with divorce and custody matters, nor children being in the middle.  But, I do enjoy brainstorming, so with that stated, a few questions.

You wrote: "I know that this isn't sustainable and DD is the one who will be hurt in the end."   

Im not sure of the good/bad relationship dynamic between DD and her father.

1. Is it possible that DD will experience even more parents-getting-divorced anguish at this time, by you also attempting to have her father advance diagnosed with a disorder in order to reduce DD's time with him?   Therefore DD could be hurt either way? 

2. Could Lauren's and DD's relationship be bruised by this advance attempt, when DD is in a fragile period of her life? 

3. Could covert NPDex manipulate DD in ways, to try and hurt Lauren and the Lauren/DD relationship, because Lauren is advance attempting to legally control NPDex?

Lauren17 also wrote:

"Or do I press on in a SoT style truth war? Do I bring in the psych evaluator and the guardian ad litem and try to get him less time now? ..........he doesn't rage, he seethes. He doesn't shout, he gives silent treatment. He doesn't call names, he  "jokes" until you cry. He very nicely and calmly lies and manipulates to get his way.  This is hard to see......."

In a different thread, i use the term 'truth-war' to differentiate from a 'hurt' or 'smear' war.  'Hurt & smear' may be what it feels like to run into a boundary wall of truth, but truth is truth.  A wall is a wall, and never hurt anybody on its own, but run into one...different story.  If your 'truth' reveals enough/certain kind of abuse and court ordered restrictions are put in place, its going to feel like 'hurt and smear' to the PD. 

Truth can also work against the non, because there's possibly not enough prove-able truth to sway the court. You used "he doesn't" many times in the above quoted paragraph.  Imo that would be a huge NPD power-victory and the NPD would then (in a 50/50 future custody) possibly be illegal-abuse-educated to possibly stay just under the threshold radar to prevent a future attempted restriction, and continue to win...and Lauren lose.

Imo, it is not against the law in my country, to be a Narcissist or have a PD and be a parent, but is against the law to abuse in certain ways.  Ive been emotionally, financially and sexual-withhold  'abused' by my wife with regard to human ethical standards but would never be able to prove my PDw broke any laws of my country or state. 

Therefore, imo, the prove-able 'truth' of a law-determined meaning (and amount) of 'abuse' in the past, will be necessary imo, to convince a court that it is not in DD's best interest to have 50/50 time with both parents. 

SoT

[PlantFlowersNotWeeds]

IMO, the "truth war" is a difficult one.  In a fair world, I'd say go for it.  But courts are tricky and your future-ex sounds very good at manipulation.   The "truth war" is going to cost a lot of money with no sure way of wining. 

I like the prior posts - you can "win" by being the best parent you can, being a solid, consistent, strong parental force.  I think he will loose interest and you will have to alter your life and plans to pickup the pieces.  And you will show, in your actions, what a good parent is.  I've heard other people in my life say that they want to fight in court so their child knows they tried - I don't agree with that.   As parents, we decide what's best for our child and move forward.  We try every day (in or out of court).

My ex enjoyed looking like the perfect family especially when he landed wife #2.  It was way harder on me than my daughter.  She ended up with more people in her life who loved her. 

There is so much about this situation that you have no control over - I'd focus on what you do have control over.   Just because you decide to NOT fight in court, doesn't mean you didn't try. You are just going to try in another manner.  If you do go forward, give it your all and do what you need to.

[moglow]

I'll be honest - you have to understand that you may or may not get the diagnosis you "want" and a push for that would not likely help you in the long run. You might be about to trot him through more than one eval eventually, but to what purpose? Unless he's determined to be an unfit parent you still have to deal with the custody issues and your daughter is caught in the crossfire. Try and minimize her time with father for any reason can still look like parental alienation to a judge that isn't there. That said, a guardian ad litem looks for what's in the best interest of your child and that's the real goal here - HER well being and safety. You and he are adults who are unable to sustain a positive mutual home life, she's therefore very much stuck between you and should never be put in a position to choose.

My best advice is to be there with and for your daughter, listen to any concerns and try not to sway her one way or the other. Children see and hear a whole lot more than we realize and can be very resilient, but they need at least one stable grounded parent to build on. Please always take the high road in your child's behalf - she will see and remember that, believe me.

[pushit]

I have experience with this kind of thing.  Long story short - my exPDw had two extended psych holds within two months.  Disappeared off the map, didn't show up to pick up the kids from school.  I filed to modify parenting time after the first one, the court quickly deemed her an acceptable parent and we went right back to 50/50.  She was deemed an acceptable parent because the hospital had just released her after a two week hold, so the courts assumed she was not an immediate threat to the kids.  Completely ridiculous.  After the second hold her parents begged me to negotiate an agreement with her instead of filing something.  I did, and she agreed to it in writing, then her lawyer shredded it and told us to go F ourselves.

Ultimately, I found that the laws in place (family law and HIPAA) allow the problem parent to hide everything, and they utilize the law to not allow evidence or testimony to be brought up in a hearing.  I spent $10k on emergency orders and hearings that resulted in nothing, we went right back to the same old same old.  Don't look for fairness in courts, courts are a different world and it isn't about what is justified.

After her lawyer shredded our agreement I decided it would be best to focus my energy on reducing stress and fighting, being the best dad I can be, and doing everything I can to eliminate my exPDw's influence on me and the kids outside of the courts.  It was the right choice.  I've minimized her, she gets to the kids a bit but she doesn't get to fight with me anymore because I keep her at a distance.  I've focused on my relationship with the kids, as long as we have that all is good, and it is getting better every day.

I (and you) can always choose to fight and bring the courts in, if need be in the future.  But for me, I'd much rather spend the money on taking the kids to Disney World than arguing with my exPDw with no guarantee of a fruitful outcome.  Best of luck to you.

[Penny Lane]

You've gotten a lot of good advice here! After watching my husband deal with pretty ongoing court stuff with his ex for years and years, here is what I think.

If you are going to fight, now is the time to do it. No matter what happens in the future, the parenting plan is going to be the foundation and the starting place for all future modifications. Do your best now to get the best possible deal that you can.

Talk to your lawyer about this. But the bar to prove to a judge that he is an unfit parent might be so high that it's insurmountable. A psych eval might not get you anywhere. So it might be a situation where you need to work smarter not harder/more aggressively. "Fighting" might not look like what you think it does. It might actually look like negotiating and settling. For example can you get him to agree to give up parenting time if you give up child support or alimony that you'd otherwise be owed? The key seems to be to not let the PD know how much you care about parenting time, to let them spend their energy arguing over the things THEY care about and then letting them win something so they feel like they have a victory over you.

I think you can probably (but not certainly) make some headway and get a better deal than 50/50.

But, I think it's safe to assume that you're not going to get everything that you want or you should get. So when the dust settles and the parenting plan is finalized, keep in mind that even if your daughter is with your ex more than you'd like, it will be OK. And there are some things you can do to make it easier on her.

First of all, a LOT of PD parents on here fight for parenting time for reasons of control or money, and then don't exercise that time. Especially dads. It's not a guarantee but it's very possible that he will not take the time he's entitled to. Parenting is hard work and he won't have you there as a buffer. The key, again, seems to be to make him think that he's putting you out or at least not let on that this is what you want to have happen. And make it as easy as possible for him to just not show up.

Second, if there is an incident be ready to go back to court. DH actually did get a revision of the parenting plan - because his ex let the kids' insurance lapse. So he was ready to jump on it and that reopened the entire plan and not only did they address insurance (they are now on our insurance) he ended up paying less child support, with more parenting time, and a host of smaller provisions that were important to him. This was only because BM did a concrete action that allowed him to reopen court, though, it wasn't because of the things she does that are more damaging to the kids. It's not a sure bet that your ex will do something along those lines.

Finally, the most important thing you can do has nothing to do with court. You will need to do this no matter what the parenting plan says: help your daughter become resilient to protect herself against her dad's actions. The reality is no matter how much or little parenting time he has, he will be her dad for her whole life. She needs to both be able to see his actions for what they are, and also have the tools to guard herself against them. On that first point that means you get out of the way, you don't badmouth him or try to get her on your side, but rather you let her figure out for herself what she's like and then you're there to comfort her when he inevitably disappoints her. On the second point, this is emotional skills like you see in the toolbox. You can explicitly talk about them, model them, show her how you deal with him or other toxic people. This is also practical skills, make sure she always has an exit route, make sure she knows how to take care of herself if he just takes off for a weekend, make sure she can logistically get herself through the uncertainty of her dad's house. She will grow up strong and at some point she will be an adult who can decide for herself whether she wants to see him.

Good luck. You are in the hardest part now. Put your head down and get through it and know that there's even more joy and peace on the other side.

[Lauren17]

Thank you to everyone for you kind and thoughtful responses. You've given me new perspective and lots to think on.
One detail I left out in the original post. DD is of an age where she can express her wants regarding the parenting plan. She has, on multiple occasions said she wants more time with Mom. Stbxh is, of course, saying she didn't mean that, denying he heard, accusing me of lying about it. He is pushing for 50/50. All while playing the martyr, which the mediator certainly bought. So, I feel like if I let him "win" on this one, I'm letting my daughter down.
SoT, answers to your questions.
1.  Yes, DD will be hurt either way. My whole focus here is trying to minimize that as much as I can.
2. I'm not sure on this one.
3. Yes. In fact, he's already started this with YA DD.
As many of you have suggested, I tried letting him think my focus was on money, in hopes he's back off on DD. It didn't work. He know both me and my financial status all too well.
I would certainly give up child support and/or alimony to increase my parenting time. I really think l that this is supply for him—his revenge on me for leaving him.
I think I may be focused on fixing everything right now, as opposed to thinking about the long game. Lots ro work through.

[Penny Lane]

That's a really good point about focusing on the long term, and yes that's pretty much what I was trying to say.

I want to add: You are NOT failing your daughter. You are trying to do your best for your daughter. If she ends up with too much time with her dad, and he acts badly, then HE is failing her. And the courts failed her. But you are absolutely doing your best and you are the only person in this scenario looking out for her best interests.

Imagine that you are talking to her in 10 years, and she wants to know the whole story of the divorce. This is a thought exercise I do sometimes. Basically, if I had to explain my actions now, would I be able to tell them that I was acting in their best interests?

You can't guarantee that in 10 years you'll be able to say that you got her everything she needed from the custody schedule. That is out of your control.

Say your daughter says "why didn't you fight harder for me?" I think the best thing is that you are able to say "I fought as hard as I could. I didn't think I would have success waging a divorce war with your dad, so I focused on trying to get him to agree to the best deal possible for you. At every step of the way I had your needs at the forefront of your mind."

But, honestly, no matter what she is saying now, most children of divorce don't grow up and ask, "why didn't you fight more with my other parent?" I don't think she wants, or it's in her best interest, for you to wage a likely unwinnable war. Really, as long as you can tell her that last part, the "at every step of the way I had your needs at the forefront of your mind," that's how you know what is best for your daughter.

So what you do now is take the information that you have at hand and make a strategy. It sounds like you have already tried the first obvious strategy, the reverse psychology trick. That didn't work. Maybe you can still get him to give up parenting time for money. Or maybe it's something else that he values more than parenting. Maybe you let the divorce sit on the back burner for a bit and let him come back to the table when he wants to move it forward for whatever reason, or maybe you push it forward because you know he'll want to avoid an actual court hearing. Whatever you think will get you the farthest with him.

You are not going to get everything you want (or everything you deserve) after this strategy. Divorce is brutal. But you'll know you tried your best - you don't have to wage a war to be able to say that. You are doing so well for yourself and for your daughter and don't let him convince you otherwise!

[hhaw]

I'll add this to the very good info here...
A Forensic Child Psych told me one either "placates the PD parent OR asserts authority over them in the courts."

The courts are expensive and the adult conflict is traumatic for the children, ime.

For me, it took many court encounters for the PDs to prove who they really are.  Documenting impeccably was necessary.  The PDs admitted what they were doing and the Judge dinged them with my legal fees in that case, which were substantial AND wrote the PD'S contact with my girls was detrimental in the Grandparent Visitation Final Order, which began as a Custody Case, but morphed into visitation as their case fell apart.

Courts tend to extend the benefit of the doubt, assume all litigants lie and "split the baby" giving everyone something, ime.  The kids suffer, bc of this when PDs are involved.

It sounds like your child might be 18yo before you can get to a final court battle where the court can't ignore the PD truth, ime. 

Unless you have solid evidence of overt harm to your child...
Unless the PD is very likely to tell the Judge who he is ....   
Maybe better to focus on putting T for your child into the Final Order AND having complete control over that situation as priority.

A good T, esp one who testified in court well, can be a helpful advocate for your child IF the PD does harm and you take him to Court over it down the road.  Forensic Ts charge more where I'm from and the PD will sabotage and stop T for you DD if he can, ime.

PDs don't like Ts poking around their behavior and parenting/ability to behave innapropriatel/harmfully, ime.

PDs fight it, tooth and nail so always make sure to point to any school problems and adjustment to divorce as reason for T.  If you say out loud..."DD needs T to counter PD parent" it's likely he'll die on that hill and manage to sabotage it.

My In-laws stormed out of the courthouse during mediation with a retired Judge, bc I wouldn't budge on T in place to monitor the children and the PD's conduct during grandparent visitation, which started out supervised and moved to unsupervised in 2 months.....emotional suicide for me, but I was being pressured by the Judge AND my attorney, so I agreed knowing the PDs we're unable to agree to anything I agreed to, preferring to  take things in expensive trials, bc they won even when they lost......starving me out with legal fees was an acceptable strategy.    The PDs we're actually in a good place when they walked out of that conference.  If their regular attorney was present, I would hav been cooked, bc he would have forced them to sit there and shut up, imo. 

You're limiting harm and strategizing for future battles, ime.  Documenting harm while accepting your child will be harmed.  You're charged with limiting that harm and trying to end it, if you can.  It's really hard to stay level, but you're your best resource....you strategize and problem solve better if you learn how to avoid fight or flight mode.  A trauma informed T for yourself is a good idea, ime.

Don't count on teachers and school admin to help prove harm, bc they don't/ can't get involved.

A good T, who can testify on your child's behalf, is powerful and an enduring investment, ime.  Esp a trauma informed T who can teach your child how to deal with and reduce stress and understand and process trauma.

If you can show the court you'll facilitate the PD being the best parent he can be while supporting the father/DD relationship it's easier for the court to give you sole authority over school/ medical decisions.  Avoid sharing those decisions with the PD if you can.......but don't let the PD know how important it is to you. 

Avoid speaking a negative word about your PD.....just give the facts you can prove and always do it sans emotion.

Appearing 100% in your child's corner, always prioritize her best interests and it's easier to gain the court officer's understanding of what you're up against, ime.  The PDs eventually show who they are if you keep your cool and let them, ime.  They refuse reasonable deals and eventually people SEE you're the only reasonable parent in the room, which sometimes leads to everyone leaning on you to give in, bc attorneys want to settle and avoid trial and trial prep, ime.

That means you have to keep pointing to your child's best interests as reason for holding your ground....you want to avoid being identified as the reason this goes to trial.  You want the PD to be identified as the unreasonable parent putting his DD through the legal wringer for the sake of "winning" things not in DD's best interest, ime.

Making a list of things you have to have, being prepared to calmly defend them on your child's behalf and requesting Agreement be handwritten at the time a deal is reached AND signed by everyone that day will limit chaos when the PD wants to change his mind after the attorneys waste money crafting an Agreement at their offices and you've allowed the next hearing to be cancelled and stopped documenting, bc your attorney said the settlement would happen when you kind of know it won't be that easy and have to start the process again adding time, expense and stress to an already stressful situation.

Electronic signatures are possible, I'm betting.  Wanting to sign the deal shows you desire to avoid trial...... it's ok to push for a handwritten Agreement, but know attorneys normally decide one will write it out, retire to their offices to hammer it out sometimes for milinths, both get paid for bickering over details (the PD will try to change everything anyway) then the PD can refuse to sign, even if he got everything he asked for and you spent 10k to have your attorney spin his wheels hammering it out.  Happened to me over and over and my second civil attorney charged me 40k after I specifically instructed him not to spend time bickering over details of an Agreement written into the court record.
I didn't pay him, btw but it was one level of chaos I tried to limit going forward, bc attorneys are easily manipulated by PDs, ime.  Sometimes I upset my attorneys when I insisted I knew how things would go, but then I avoided rubbing it in when I was right and the attorney was wrong....that left room for the attorney to get angry at the PDs, which worked out well for me, bc she took my case personally and stopped requesting payment up front, than God.

Sometimes the things we feel will sink us turn out to work to our advantage in the end ime.  It feels scary to read terrible accusations against us in court documents BUT feels better when the PD looks foolish in Court, bc they have zero evidence and we allege only what we can prove....the harsh light of a Courtroom doesn't favor dramatic liars, ime. 

Good luck.  You sound pretty level going in to this.  Trust your gut.  Always present as the consistent, calm and child centered parent you are.  Let the PD lose his cool and show the court his anger, resentment and focus on harming you at his child's expense.  You speak with compassion for your stbx always and focus on your child.  You'll have good and bad days, but keep your eye on the mission. 

This too shall pass.

[SonofThunder]

Very interesting read hhaw.  Your experiences, insight and wisdom from your ordeal will hopefully add much consideration for Lauren17 to potentially apply in her situation.  Divorcing a PD with younger kids is quite the ordeal and in a way, glad I avoided by being in the fog through those years, despite my mental and physical exhaustion.  But your strategic thinking and decision-making, setting the stage for the PD to expose reality behind the facade, is some detail-focusing that i would find interesting even in the middle of a court battle.  Although the push-pull on younger kids during the period sounds traumatic. 

A respectful tip of my cowboy hat to you good people who slog-it-out with a PD for your own freedom and the ultimate best situation for your children. 

SoT

[Lauren17]

I'll add this to the very good info here...
A Forensic Child Psych told me one either "placates the PD parent OR asserts authority over them in the courts."

I don't understand the message here. Can you expand?

I do have DD meeting with a very good T. Stbxh did originally try to push back on my selection through his lawyer.  However, I had documented asking his opinion and offering him a chance to vet that he ignored. So the pushback went away. Now he's trying to manipulate the T.
I am planning on DD in T as part of the final order. I'll have to talk to my lawyer about preventing his ability to impact that. Thank you for that excellent suggestion.

[SonofThunder]

Lauren17,

I understand your that expand question was for hhaw.  I understood hhaw's comment to mean exactly what you suggested with:  "I'll have to talk to my lawyer about preventing his ability to impact that." = "asserts authority over them in the courts."

The flip side to that would be to 'placate' your Stbxh by allowing him to impact your DD's choice of a T, by not challenging your Stbxh.   

Therefore my understanding is that you are proactively asserting authority by using the law to the full protective benefit of your DD. 

SoT