Worn out but standing firm

[Simon]

Is it any chance she could have changed?

Danger Will Robinson!!!

https://i.makeagif.com/media/9-05-2016/3umgv3.gif

[losingmyself]

 
Stay your course. NOTHING has changed. It's all smoke and mirrors.

[escapingman]

Oh yes, I know it is. I am enough Out of the FOG to wanna go back in. She is about to slip, she is stressed about Christmas and if she is doing all she can to be nice to me, who do you think will get it? So, I removed the kids for a few hours and we had a really great time together. We also has another couples therapy session and I am 100% honest, I think she is to, and the worry is that she is validating what I say with acting like she is actually right to behave the way she has done. I think the therapist is adding one and one, but lets see. We are going to see the therapist one on one after Christmas and that will be interesting. I also hope to get my own Therapist soon. The big cloud of FOG is lifting and I can see clearer and clearer. It really helps to take a few days away here and there and just get me time.

And thanks Sinom and losingmyself, but there is no chance I believe she will change (without a brain surgeon). 

[hhaw]

EM:

Your stbx would resent/hate/ punish you IF her love bombing behaviors convinced you to stay in the marriage, bc she is seeeething under all that niceness all the time.

Once she gets her way she'll be compelled to punish and make you pay for forcing her to be nice.  How dare you!?!?! 

It's all kinds of disordered and her efforts to gain your compliance will escalate as the divorce count down continues.

You should be asking yourself what possible extent your intuition believes stbx will go to when divorce goes forward, for real.

Right now it's all talk.

Some PD's employ scorched earth policies.  Some don't.  If you're ever afraid she'll set the house afire, hurt someone or herself, etc..... don't ignore it.  Do what you can to head it off and avoid it.

From what you've said, it seems her mother might be a person to steer the stbx toward......as far as stabilizer and caretaker go.

I recognize myself in your last post ....the running thought, one to another.  I was told this is what traumatized brains DO. 

I also recognize a fellow sufferers WORRY WORRY WORRY coping style in that post, which is impossible to stop unless I stop.  Shift focus.  Concentrate on some one other thing and breathing.

Gaining access to logic and reason will help you see the entire field again, identify things you have control so you can focus on solutions and actions to improve and shorten your suffering, ime.

Identifying what you can't change is just as important so you can put them on the shelf and let
them
be.

If it's impossible, KNOW it's just how it feels and your thoughts and feelings aren't reality.  You can change those, direct them and be the master of your reality.....as far as anyone raising children in this chaos can be.....you can do it and turn it into habit, ime.

Your thoughts are so normal, em.  They're also overwhelming and paralyzing and creating fear and bogging you down......robbing you of agency in your life.

Your stbx childlike wife is weilding a boat load of control over your thoughts and I want you to know......you are capable and worthy of blocking her control and restoring equinamity in every moment, decision and small choice.

STBX will escalate her flip flopping PD behaviors, bc that's what they DO.

How you move through this is more about your choices than hers.  Even though it seems unlikely..... it's true and I wish you spaciousness, emotional distance and most of all acceptance of the things creating resistance and worry worry worry in your moments.

[escapingman]

I can tell you that you are right, she is seething and she would love to rip me to pieces. I am getting quite a few interesting revelations from her during the therapy sessions and also following them. She has admitted she needs me, I am the only one that can take care of her emotions and calm her when she is upset. Yeah right, she calms herself by verbally abusing me to the extent that I am surprised no neighbour has called the police (we live in a detached house). The more we talk, the more I know I need and want out. Regarding her mum, this is something I have been thinking a lot about. I have always had her down as a PD herself, but I am not sure what she actually is, other than an extremely selfish person. I have however never seen her lose her cool and I think when really looking back the times she has raged is has been set off either by my uNPDw or my late uNPDfil. However, my STBX and MIL have a very weird relation. My STBX is so scared of MIL so she do anything to not let her down. Me and MIL have had many arguments, looking back I think they have been because of the lack of boundary between MIL and STBX and when I have tried to set boundaries STBX have triangulated us against each other. But I don't know, we almost have no contact with her now and it is very superficial. If I involve her, I can see it go two ways. She either be my biggest asset by taking STBX away from me and put her in her box. Or else she will back STBX and become my worst nightmare. So far I am way to worried about the later so I keep her out for now. But if I can give her evidence and tell her to either take STBX and make her stay at hers, or else I drag the lot of them through the mud and put a real police report through. Its all about appearance and MIL would not like her family to be talked about so she would do anything to avoid that. I am however very aware of that doing so would be playing with fire and could back fire spectacular. To add to this we have a highly narcissistic SIL as well that could get the dead wake up when she gets going. I haven't really come across her myself but I have seen her in action from a distance. At the moment STBX and SIL aren't really speaking to each other so hopefully she would not get involved, but who knows with PD's. This is probably the most twisted family I come across, STBX grandmother was a big big Narc as well, she also controlled STBX whenever they saw each other, they didn't speak to each other for 10 years over an incident so small I still laugh about it. But, they both refused to back down.

[escapingman]

Just to add one note, I have so much material I could easy write a best selling book with all the incidents. Most people would however think its pure science fiction as it is so unreal what has gone on in my STBX family.

[Simon]

Just to back up what hhaw said about seething and longing to punish you (although I know you already know that's true), here's something that Dr. Tara talked about in one of her videos.

She said that a client of hers had decided to leave or file because of all the toxic narcissistic abuse he'd suffered during his marriage, with kids (something like that), and all of a sudden his wife became a loving, caring and devoted wife.
After 14 months of near bliss, she became pregnant, and suddenly became toxic and nasty and abusive again.
He asked her why she had suddenly changed back into this toxic person, and she remarked "Do you have any idea how hard it's been for me to be nice to you all this time?"

Once she'd got pregnant, she had her hooks in him again, almost certain that he wouldn't leave now, and so there was no need to act any more.
The whole thing was pre-meditated, and she knew exactly how she was going to treat him as soon as she got pregnant.
The fact that he was seeing Dr. T suggests that he did decide to divorce her (or working towards it), but if I remember correctly, she said that the wife had turned his kids against him, one of them was in counselling and was really struggling, and that the wife was currently working on alienating the youngest child from their Dad.
None of that 14 months was real.
It was all a means to an end, and that she was going to make sure he paid the price for wanting to get away.

And I know what you mean about some of the incidents being unreal e.m.
I was only with mine for a year, and the couple of people I trust with the details of my relationship with her sometimes look at me funny when I tell them one of the more ridiculous episodes.
It's like they think I'm embellishing the story for effect, when most of the time I'm actually leaving things out to play it down a little.
And there are some things that I have never told anyone, and sometimes doubt my memories of the incident (until I check my journal I kept for the whole year).

Society has no idea of the Psychological Pandemic that's bubbling under the surface, and that's because it's all too unbelievable.
This stuff should be taught in schools (but that's a topic for another thread).

[escapingman]

He asked her why she had suddenly changed back into this toxic person, and she remarked "Do you have any idea how hard it's been for me to be nice to you all this time?"

During the therapy sessions we have had STBX has said several times that she is trying so hard to be nice. She thought I was supposed to be grateful and tap her on the back and say "well done for not abusing me". She has made this clear more than once that she is trying really really hard, and I have asked her why is it so hard to be nice? She can't answer that so I obviously know she is not going to last as soon as she thinks the charade is not needed anymore.

Thanks for sharing the story, very good to read.

[hhaw]

EM:

I'm not sure why, but at a point we tend to lose our ability to file police reports and get action IF our stbx isn't all out assaulting us OR is doing it so we can't document it and time went by when we COULD, so....the courts want fresh abuse/assaults.  I think you already watched this happen to you.

You can't just press charges on older assaults, ime.....or get restraining orders.  This leads to one's case getting weaker if one waits for the STBX to do A or B or C.

You believe you stbx and her mother will want to avoid exposure, but I find it brings out their claws......they double down on accusations, make huge victim noises and tell stories you cannot even believe they have the nerve to make up,which complicates and confuses the entire matter, ime.

You want to avoid the He said/She said divorce.  Even as you document and prove your case expect the PDs to manufacture chaos the likes you have never imagined.....
Remember, PDs generally want and attempt to destroy you, your credibility and relationships with everyone (your children) when you have the nerve to expose them.  I honestly believe they're reactive and have no ability to control this reflexive lashing out.  Even small perceived slights expose fangs.  Imagine exposing their abuse.  Terrifying!


PDs honestly feel YOU are the aggressor, YOU attacked them if you hire an attorney and file a divorce...the PD honestly feels attacked.  They use that to justify what they do to "defend" and get you back in compliance.... it's a train wreck.....longer or slower, but an absolute train wreck, ime.  Messy.  Heartbreaking. 

My point is......hesitating to use your evidence seems to dilute it or make it unusable, ime.  The STBX will drag things out, pretend you're the bad guy long enough, actually sound like a victim to the point the courts become confused about your situation, ime......the kids get pretty much zero protection or therapy bc the courts tend to split the baby and give 50/50 everything, despite the PD abuse
If
You
Fail
To
Prove
Your
Case
With
Very
Clear
And
Convincing
Evidence
Without allowing time and stbx chaos manufacture to damage your ability. That's a HUGE if, imo.

A second factor hindering your ability to be heard and put a convincing case forward is......
Your hesitation and willingness to remain in an abusive situation for so long.

People don't understand it.  They doubt it, perhaps dismiss your evidence even, bc the PD conduct is so beezar....people sometimes want to know what YoU DID to the PD to MAKE them behave that way.......so I'm telling you there are ways to sabotage yourself and your case you might consider avoiding.  PD behaviors make no sense.  People need your story to make sense.  I would have tailored a reasonable case based on my evidence and avoided blathering about EVERYTHING the PD did, bc it made me appear unhinged just saying it out loud, so....think about making sense of your lawsuit before filing is good advice.  Always base it on your strongest evidence.

Filing a lawsuit based on evidence you HAVE is a position of strength you can back down from and settle out of court, should the stbx come to her senses.  But you have to put up the goods, ime.

Escalating your case from a very neutral position, as the stbx also escalates the matter, appears more like two parents smearing each other.....the courts punish everyone, ime, esp the kids with bad judgments and Orders failing to protect or provide therapy the stbx doesn't sabotage and control if she fails to control the T.

So....to review, putting together a scathing, airtight case up front SHOWS and justifies your divorce petition and all your requests to protect the kids.

Waiting, trying to avoid a fight or waiting for the stbx to back down to avoid the public shaming has never worked, that I've seen, ever.

It extends suffering, ime.

I saw one poster get the upper hand in his divorce....he did everything right and the courts SAW his truth and reality.  He was able to protect his children.  It was amazing!

I can report we lost contact when he decided to stay in his marriage....for his children.  I saw red flags and danger all around him......it was just a matter of time before his defeated PD harmed or framed him while he was busy raising kids and she was seething every moment of every day inside their shared home, ime.  He saw it differently and I pray he's enjoying peace and raising his kids in harmony, but...... he'd proven to everyone his wife was disordered and I stress it was THAT very clear and concise action affording him any power and choice at all in the matter.

I've never seen waiting pay off.  Bartering and dealing with PDs always ALWAYS leads to weakening our evidence and creating confusion.

You'll still be a good well intentioned human being IF you prove a divorce case up front, without faffing about waiting for the PD to agree, understand, cooperate or avoid a fight, even though the PD and every cell in your body tells you you're a monster for doing what needs doing to end the suffering more quickly.

Standing firm might get protections and therapy for your kids, sheltered from the stbx's sabotage, if you prove your case to SHOW the court WHY your requests are necessary.

Maybe, just maybe then your stbx backs down, bc she's exposed and can't undo what you've proven at that point.

If she has any wiggle room she's going to roll like and alligator with you and the kids tied to her.  It's not personal, em.  It's what PDs DO. If your wife was in her right mind she'd want you to do what you can to protect her children.  Even from her.

You think you're tired.  You can't imagine the escalation if you aren't resolute and focused
On
What
You
Can
Do
Now.

That's prove your case and remove all the wiggle room for stbx.

Everything else is you resisting acceptance .... it's you struggling to change your reality and the PD, ime. Been there.  It's difficult to keep all this reality in focus, all the time. Maybe impossible for empaths.

Your PD is broken.  If she could fix herself she would have.  She can't.  She will always be broken and you can't save her, protect or shield her AND the kids/ yourself.

You have to explain to a court why you put up with her abuse as long as you have.  That's not easy, but you say you did it for your children, to give them a family, bc you thought the abuse would end, but it just got worse.

You prove that abuse and get what you need....put controls in place, hold the stbx's feet to the fire and report all failures to comply with Judge's Orders....while picking your battles and trying to create peace for your children.

I know how crazy that looks from where you're standing.  After all the protecting the PD....of hiding your shame and living in confusion bc you can't understand why the PD is being abusive when you're being so kind and peaceful and loving all those years.  It's hard to BE firm.  To put up and enforce boundaries while the PD shrieks and bucks and behaves like you're throwing holy water on a demon.

It's also horrifying and heartbreaking and something an empath would avoid at all costs if they could, so empaths tend to wait till backs are against walls and all options are lost, ime.  I guess doing less is a choice and sometimes one needs to have their hand forced.  It leads to a weak position in divorce though. 

Just know......the kind cut, in these cases, is the stinkiest cut.  Doing what you can to prove your case up front, with everything you have to provide clarity and gain understanding, is the kindest thing you can do for everyone involved.  It shortens up the process, saves family resources and limits the damage the PD can DO, ime.

If the stbx has access to you ....if she can talk to you, get inside your head things are much messier, difficult, impossible to steer quickly to a final outcome that's better for the kids, bc you'll find it impossible to stand her painful alligator rolls and stay on course.  It will get messy, ime.  And then the mil and sil and flying monkeys start in. Whew boy, lots more pressure on top of pressure.

No one understands how difficult it is to BE an empath caretaking an abusive PD with kids in the middle, but they could if you show them with economy of motion, time and......if you stop the PD controlling ANY aspect of your choices.

You aren't there yet.  How could you be?  It's almost impossible to "get" unless you've been there, admittedly.

When you post about waiting for a no fault divorce.....I know you have hope to avoid a big fight.  Understandable.  Any good parent would want that.  You're a good parent.

But Don't create a huge divorce battle bc you can't stop protecting the PD.  She's going to show you how to throw a spouse and kids to the wolves soon enough, if you do.  By then the courts will see mutual combat and everyone loses, including the kids

I'll close with this .....if you present your evidence with compassion for your stbx....if you ask for her to get T (without expectation) and speak about her without judgment.....
YOU can DO this.  You can keep your kindness in tact while forging ahead with positive change..... but  the stbx will interpret as acid in her face.  You'll have to build a tolerance and hold....hold.....hold.....not jump in to stop her discomfort, bc that extends yours and the kids....the stbx's also.

I believe you'll have to be away from her in order to focus, make a good plan and exit in the best possible way with the best possible outcome for everyone involved.

That said.....we are where we want to be, ime.  If you need to be the nice guy and  protect your stbx..... that will be your path in the divorce.  It will be longer more painful.  It will be more expensive and traumatizing for everyone involved, but it will be what you need to be, bc other choices are intolerable, ime.  That's perfectly reasonable.  We all have our limits.  Best to accept them and know it if it's that's our truthlll
L
.

From one very regretful empath to another.......file the charges without hesitation.  Stand up for yourself and your kids without worry about the stbx, bc she's going to gut your case, your credibility and your sanity if she can and she won't make any mistakes by hesitating.  She will not.  She's committed to relentlessly upend you and the kids, and you're the only person who can limit that harm.  The kids will be terrorized and know their mother's love is conditional.....they likely won't go against her, bc they know your love isn't conditional.  You'll still love them, no matter what.  How terrible to force children to take sides, but your wife built her family in it.  This won't improve unless you force compliance through the courts ....get the kids into Therapy.....keep the stbx OUT if the therapy sessions if you can arrange any at all.

He who hesitates is lost.



Now I understand that saying.  Deeply and painfully.... I have no idea if I could have changed my outcome if someone told me all this before I filed. 

Maybe we're not meant to mitigate the PD harm in divorce?  Maybe it has to play out the way our marriages played? Bc that's who we are in the role.  Trying to tame the PD.  Gain their compliance, unable to accept the truth and so we suffer more, bc suffering less isn't what we need?

I don't know, but I promise I won't keep hitting you over the head with this. 

Trust your instincts.  Don't let the PD confuse you.  Honor yourself, always, and know things will get better.  It's just a matter of more or less time, EM.

If you do it the way most of us did it.....it will still be ok.  Maybe less ok, but ok.

I typically only post at the beginning of the divorce process and the point where settlement discussions are coming up.  I don't believe I can say much to help a divorce gone off the rails.  It's off the rails, on it's own terrible course and I tend to avoid that particular chaos.

Everyone ends up dragged through that.
I sincerely hope you can avoid it.

[escapingman]

Thank you hhaw, there is so much value in your posts.

I just had a call with my solicitor where we made a plan, and she confirmed what it would actually mean if I move out. I am OK with that, for now. Plan A is to after Christmas go for a separation, frame it to STBX as a trial and leave her with hope it is just temporary. Then for me to recover and heal for a few months and to go for the no fault divorce. But, if things go ugly over Christmas be prepared to escalate and take whatever action is needed. This will still be hard, but if I can manage to get out of the house and get some rest and healing before the upcoming war I will benefit. But my gut feeling is all hell will break lose over Christmas, it has always before so why would this year be any difference?

At least I have my options and that gives me some kind of comfort.

[DetachedAndEngaged]

I have a solicitor, she is trying to push me to file. I know I need to. Only issue is she think I should stay in the house for legal reasons, I don't think I can do that.

It has been many weeks since I've posted anything to your threads, but I've been following along and am glad to see that you are slowly pulling yourself Out of the FOG.

I'm curious, what is the legal reason your solicitor thinks you will be better off staying in the house?

From a non-legal standpoint, getting out immediately sounds like the best for your's and your children's mental/emotional/physical well-being and, indeed, safety.

Wishing you continued progress on your path...

[escapingman]

I have a solicitor, she is trying to push me to file. I know I need to. Only issue is she think I should stay in the house for legal reasons, I don't think I can do that.

It has been many weeks since I've posted anything to your threads, but I've been following along and am glad to see that you are slowly pulling yourself Out of the FOG.

I'm curious, what is the legal reason your solicitor thinks you will be better off staying in the house?

From a non-legal standpoint, getting out immediately sounds like the best for your's and your children's mental/emotional/physical well-being and, indeed, safety.

Wishing you continued progress on your path...

I spoken to the solicitor today and cleared all this up, I am now confident I can move out. There were 2 reasons the solicitor wanted me to stay in the house, first one was for the kids sake, which I now know is void as we are better off with me out. The second is for financial reasons and that stbx potentially could delay and delay and delay to stay in the house. I am prepared to take that risk now, I just need out.

[SonofThunder]

EM,

I continue to read along quietly regarding your situation and imo, it seems you've been in this same position before, possibly a couple times.  I understand time and continued experience can be a good teacher regarding repetitive experiences to solidify our perceptions.  Also imo, PD's are high-radar (sensitive) to subtleties of our choices and therefore our choices alone, can speak volumes, not only to a PD, but to ourselves. 

Therefore, in the past, your choice for "I just need out" has been a hotel. Imo, the choice of your "out" residence speaks volumes to your intent, both with your PD and to yourself!  A hotel speaks 'temporary' and gives yourself an easy-out to return home to your uPDw once again.  I want to suggest to you that you make a firmer commitment to yourself, and (covertly arrange to avoid manipulation from your uPDw), arrange a lease of a small apartment/flat; large enough for you and your children to recognize you acquired space big enough for them to stay, even though they will probably remain with their mother at first for a variety of reasons. 

A commitment to a lease is also a mental commitment to yourself to stick with the joint decision (you + the solicitor) made.  I don't know the laws of your country, but the choice for a temporary 'trial' of separation may be advised by your solicitor for legal reasons (avoid a charge of abandonment for example) or if not, your solicitor is simply playing along to your desires to 'ease' yourself and your uPDw into separation, but that is imo (if not a legal move) catering (caretaking actually) to your wife, when not necessary, to avoid an overly harsh reaction by her.   

Even if (b/c of your country's laws) your solicitor is suggesting a trial-period for legal reasons, you can possibly sign a 6 or 12 month lease.  Imo, this alone speaks volumes to yourself and your uPDw, as well as your children.  Acquiring enough room for them to stay/visit, also tells them you are not abandoning them, but actually looking forward to some alone time with them, letting them know they are highly loved and planned-for.  Not sure if the kids are in school or physically attending (b/c of Covid) and how they transport, but if yes, the location of your leased apartment/flat can also be highly convenient to their school, in the event they need to stay with you. 

SoT

[escapingman]

Thank you SoT. To make a move us more to caretake of me than uNPDw or by law. I can mentally not stay in the same house as her, I even when I am MC and GR I can see and hear her and still be on edge. 2 months of me not engaging in her drama has had a massive and positive effect on my relation with the kids, I value that the most. When filing stbx will try to ruin that. The plan I have and the various options are with me in mind and not her? But I need to be prepared to adjust depending on what toys she throws at me, but it's nothing I can preempt and manage beforehand.

[JustKeepTrying]

escapingman,

It's reassuring to see that you have steps and a plan in place.  Following all of your posts across the boards and you have had quite the journey Out of the FOG.  I pray that you remain committed to your course of action for yourself and your children.  If you feel this bad with your wife, then your children are in the same situation and just as confused.

hhaw has several wise points.  Please read over her posts again and again as you move through the holidays.  Take steps to leave in your own home to reinforce your commitment like organizing the paperwork you will need.  Catalog the items in the house that you want to divide after you file.  Look online at apartment/Airbnb long rentals.  These actions can be done quietly without her knowledge and keep you grounded during the chaos.  They will also make you feel like your moving forward.

PIece of advice, wherever you land after you leave, make sure it's in the children's school district.  That way you demonstrate to the courts you are committed to maintaining a family.

[escapingman]

Question to everyone, I am so tired of uNPDw. I actually despise her and don't care about her feelings anymore. I am so past caretaking of her so I just walk away when she starts her drama. I was just watching some tv on my own and she came in and tried to get my attention, I ignored her,  she got narky and I just told her to get lost. She stormed out and slammed the door. Is this me healing, or is it me getting back in to drama? I didn't feel anything than relief when I told her to sling her hook. She obviously came back 5 minutes later to try to get me into her room to watch tv, which I again declined.

Maybe my decision earlier today and to confirm it to someone (solicitor) could have pushed me further Out of the FOG? I don't know, but I wish and I pray I can just tell her that we are over and good bye. Cause if I don't care anymore, what hold does she have on me? Kids, yes I know, but that would make no difference whatever anyway.

I don't love her anymore, I love the one I thought she was, I am just done here. Thank you.

[square]

This description reminded me of your wife and how she has such a narrow range of responses to any situation - basically rage or fawn, and try it over and over even if it hasn't worked.

https://www.outofthefog.net/forum/index.php?topic=90089.0

[Andeza]

I have essentially a list of things to do before suddenly moving out of a house with a pwPD in it without warning. Applicable to your situation are the following: secure all your IDs, important documents, sensitive work stuff, and vital records if you have not already done so.

Over on the PD parents subforum there are many stories of PD parents burning or destroying those items when a child suddenly moved out. I can totally see you wife pulling a similar stunt if you make your exodus suddenly on Christmas or the day after. So today... I'd track down and squirrel those items away.

I'm glad you got your options sort and have a more concrete plan now.

[hhaw]

Echoing Andrea.....
Secure any precious items....like baby pictures and family heirlooms you care about, em.  Be prepared to let everything you leave in the house go when you leave, bc your stbx will likely destroy or hold Ransome anything she thinks you care about.

[escapingman]

I have been thinking about your last messages, I think I have all photos on digital media and for the rest, I am not sure anything in the house is of any sentimental value for me. uNPDw has treated the house like a show home and it is almost sterile, I have a box in the garage with my old memories, not looked at them for 20 years so not sure how much I really care about them. Other precious items are still at my parents, if they survived their spring cleans. I am still in 2 minds if I should just file and stay or go. I have started to really see how much uNPDw's behaviour is affecting GC, it's getting so bad I almost feel tempted to throw stbx out the house and never let her see the kids again. We had an incident yesterday with something GC said, I am not sure I can even put it in writing as I am shivering. But I need to protect her from further damage. I feel reasonable comfortable I SG will be fine, she can see, but GC. I am working on her and give her as much love I can whatever she do, I feel I am becoming closer to her but she is such a caretaker for her mums feelings it is frightening. She puts her mum before herself. GC can be in tears and cry because something her mum has done, I try to comfort her and if I say anything she can slightly think is a negative thing about stbx GC will defend her mum instead of letting her own feelings be. I am struggling with that, but I am trying.

Yesterday STBX again tried to be intimate with me, pushed her away again as feeling sick of just looking at her. She immediately started complaining about how mean I am and it's Christmas and so on. All I can see is the previous abuse and the current emotional abuse of the kids. How many times can I say no before I really need to scream no in her face? This must be some kind of circular she is doing coming back to the same all the time trying to get me to change that no to a yes.