Resuming Contact

[thenextme2020]

There was a really great post here ages ago that we used to repost all the time about therapy. The basic premise of it was just because you've done heaps of work on yourself, don't expect that to make a single jot of difference in your relationship with PDFOO.
Unless they have been to therapy and have done the work on themselves, you are stepping back into the same toxic situation and to come back to the post - it was 'Just because you're drinking from a golden chalice now instead of a broken bit of dirty pottery, it won't save you from being poisoned if you're drinking from a toxic well.'
I think you should keep working on your relationship with your parents and spare your spouse and your children from dealing with them until you have seen with your own eyes what they are like.
Dinner in a restaurant is one of those situations that provides your parents with a wonderful strategy to engineer a 'woe is me my family are abusive' scenario.
You'd be better off meeting at a theme park or some other venue where your partner and your children can walk away and find something else they'd rather do if the meeting with your parents proves to be uncomfortable.
I think the other thing you have to prepare yourself for is that your parents have very likely gotten worse over the years that you've been NC, rather than better. That tends to be the progression of the illness, unless there's an intervention with therapy and a deep commitment to change.
I'm stunned at how much worse various family members have become over the course of three decades and I really can't believe that's down to the fact that I see them with much greater clarity thanks to therapy and the insights I've gained from these boards.

It's possible that they've gotten better, it's also possible they really haven't. I'll know when we see thing. Typically speaking my parents "behave themselves" in public and when around other extended family. As if they have to keep up appearances. I end up getting a "faker" version of them but at least it isn't as toxic. Low standards, I know. things also tend to go better when we're in a public place or park doing some activity. Where it gets bad is if we're in a home and they're able to use the opportunity to make comments on anything and everything. They're not longer welcome inside my home, and I'm not visiting theirs (even though its my childhood house).

Over the years I have not tolerated any outbursts from my mother. If it happens, she loses contact with me for an extended period of time. She doesn't get to yell at me just because I'm her son. Not seeing your kid or grandkids for 4 years is a harsh consequence. I hope they think about that before doing anything they will regret.

[thenextme2020]

Sorry, I realised I didn't address your concern about how your parents might feel about your SIL being present at the meeting.
So I would ask you to reflect, why does your wife feel like she needs support for that meeting?
If she feels like she needs an ally or a witness then I wonder if that's because she's not confident that you will see the behaviour that is directed at her and she's not confident that you will stand up for her and tell your parents to knock it off.
I think perhaps it is unfair on your SIL to draw her into this and it might be better to go to therapy with your parents.
If and when they can acknowledge to a T what their behaviour was, how it was hurtful and learn how to deal with the consequences of that, then it might be time to bring your wife to that conversation.
My in-laws are perfectly capable of behaving themselves with my DH because they want something from him.
They also wanted him entirely to themselves so it has not bothered them one bit since I stepped out of that relationship.
It's extraordinary how PD parents can modify their behaviour when it suits them and they will dial up the nastiness the moment that it suits them.
My 2 cents worth - test them out on a therapist first, before you risk undoing all the hard work you've done on repairing your marriage.

My wife and I agree that it is unfair to bring SIL into this, and that we wish we didn't have to, but ultimately it's what my wife wants. And I want her to be as happy and comfortable as possible. My wife would never go to therapy with my parents, and yes I agree that she wants her sister there as a witness and extra protection. She told me that she's not 100% I will deliver and protect her but that she's still giving me a shot. In past years that would have really hurt me and made me defensive but these days I took the criticism and feedback with a grain of salt. She has every right to doubt me given all the history. She has every right to be scared shitless. This is the time I don't let her down. This is the time where I emerge victorious having defended and protected my wife and family at all costs.

[thenextme2020]

I just want to send a HUGE thank you to everyone who has responded to me on this thread with thoughts and support. You have no idea how much it means to me. I have exactly 1 week before the visit. I'm certain more crazy shit will get thrown at me in the meantime. I'll be back to share how things are going. Thanks again.

[Hilltop]

Good on you for holding your first boundary however let this be a sign of what is to come.  I think a lot of time we take our time out, we do healing work and then we go back in thinking that things will be different or we will handle things differently.  It's generally not the case.

I went NC with my parents for 2 years and then resumed contact.  It was fine at first, they were on their best behaviour until they weren't and then things were back to being how they had been before.  Only it seemed worse and more hurtful.  I would say once you have done some work on yourself, their behaviour becomes more obvious, you see through it more clearly.  In the end about a year and half ago my parents really went out of their way to show their disdain for me, they really ramped things up and now I am back at a VVVLC sort of relationship however to me it's draining.  I am currently trying to find a way to feel that I can sort out how much contact I want and then just not think about it but that's the thing, once we resume contact we do end up managing either our boundaries or our feelings and it takes a toll.  I feel you have already felt this toll when you spent a couple of hours getting over the first boundary stomp by your parents.

I have seen many of us on this board, myself included, do NC, resume, things go bad, contact is lessened.  It seems to be a common pattern.  I still have some contact because I am still in the belief that we may be able to find a way it works however the other part of me also knows that this isn't the way it's suppose to be.  A relationship shouldn't be this much work or this draining.  Narc's typically get worse with age so no amount of managing them is going to work.  I am somewhat trying to come to terms with this.

I also another who feels that bringing the sister along is possibly going to interrupt the natural flow.  I would say your wife will need to see you stand up for her during this visit, if that needs to happen.  If you fail to do so and her sister has to step in, that will be  blow to your marriage.

I would think about protecting your wife and kids and not worry about managing your parents.  Think of ways to deflect comments or redirect things when you need to.  In some ways, I almost think they may be on their best behaviour, especially with the SIL present and this may lull you into a false sense of security that things have changed.

Keep us updated on how it goes.  I sometimes don't think the mental gymnastics are not worth it.  Sometimes the toll is too great.  I hope it goes ok, good luck.

[Amadahy]

Congratulations on your good work on yourself and your marriage!  It is no small feat to realize dysfunction and nurture good emotional health.  Bravo!

I raised three sons with their grands at the periphery.  I "shielded" them from my Nmom, at the expense of my own mental health, so they got a decent mom when perhaps they could have had a great mom.  Finally, after the horrific decision to let Nmom live with us as her mental health worsened, I evicted her when she started going after my sons with the gaslighting, inappropriate comments and rage.  By that time, the kids were nearly grown and the oldest said, very astutely, "Mom, you don't have to protect us anymore."  I cried and cried because they had seen what I tried so valiantly to hide:  we were not going to have the beautiful extended family experience that some folks enjoy.  All that being said, I hope your situation is remarkably different and workable, but if it is not, it is not your fault and not an indication of failure on your part in any way.  I'd give my right arm to have all those early years of marriage back with the knowledge I have now.  My DH and I muddled through, but I put him through a lot with my putting up with her bs.  I now have c-ptsd and struggle greatly to feel good about myself or deserving of good things.  And, my good intentions and hopes did not turn her around.  Not at all.  She has wasted her life due to mental illness and I wasted some of mine due to my inner child hopes of someday gaining a mother's love.  If I had it to do over, knowing what I now know, I would have cut her (them) off when I left home at 17 to get away.

I am so thankful you have a good, supportive wife.  I have a wonderful DH and it has made all the difference.  Best wishes, with everything. 

[thenextme2020]

Back with an update. It's just 3 days now before I see my folks. They get into town tomorrow morning. To be honest, just the idea of them being in town makes me a bit nervous. Not as much as a few years ago, but the nerves are still there. I'm not expecting them to come over unannounced and knock on my door or anything. IF they did I would not answer it and would immediately call off the entire visit as this is a big boundary stomp. I think I'm getting nervous because suddenly, things are getting very real. The irony is I've been looking forward to this moment for almost 4 years, yet I find myself insanely worried about the outcome. It's such a brain fuck to be looking forward to hugging your parents, but also on guard ready to deal with any attacks. My mind has been racing late at night and early in the morning. I constantly think of every possible scenario, and every possible comment that might come my way and how I will respond. It is impossible to anticipate it all, yet my brain is still trying. Maintaining boundaries isn't the hard part, it's dealing with the reaction to the boundaries. If my mom has an angry outburst we will have to end the visit - and I am so angry that I might have to do that, again, after a nearly 4 year break.

I spoke to my mother earlier in the week and calmly explained the plans for the visit. I could hear a bit of disappointment and frustration in her voice. I know she hates the "rules" but tough shit, if she wants to see me and my family she'll have to deal. While she didn't outright challenge the boundaries, she expressed sadness about them. Well, "frustrated sadness". It all comes down to control with her. It's never enough time, it's never the right activity, and so on. There's always SOMETHING to complain about. I will never be enough for her. Nothing I do is ever enough and she has an opinion about how I do ANYTHING. I think what really pissed me off is that she is jealous of the relationships I have with my wife's side of the family, and that they've met the kids. What was I supposed to do over the last 4 years? Live in a cave? Have no friends or family? Revolve mY entire life around her? It's probably normal to feel sad about it, but it isn't appropriate to put those feelings back on me as if I need to do something about it. Her BPD makes her feel unwanted or abandoned. I chose to see other family for the last few years, and this is somehow a betrayal to her and I'm an uncaring monster for not doing more about it. Well here's the truth: I did all I could, it's not wrong for me to see caring and loving people, and my mom's feelings about it aren't my problem. She will never understand this. She will never accept the truth that her behavior justified the NC. While she didn't say this I know thinks of it as a disproportionate and inappropriate punishment. In some fucked up way she wants me to be responsible for the pain she's had to endure with NC, even though she is the one that caused the NC to happen to begin with. This makes me feel nuts. I was reminded just how exhausting dealing with her fragility is. I was reminded that no matter how much she says she understands and respects my boundaries and the plans, if she gets triggered or emotional she is going to have a very hard time controlling herself. This is why we have limited time and now have a low contact relationship. It's to protect me, my wife and kids. In the past I used to think that giving her more of what she wants would help the relationship. I realized a while back that no, it doesn't. Nothing I do, no amount of time I offer will fill the hole inside of her. So, I must give only what I can.

She acknowledges that her past behaviors that are unacceptable, and has told me repeatedly that she will be friendly and civil going forward. I know that because she has BPD she will always struggle to hear any criticism or take feedback well. Whenever I've tried she gets defensive and upset. This is why I can only have a superficial relationship with her. It is never worth it to "get into it". It never will be. That is fucking sad.

This time around I let her get a bit out of her system when we chatted. After only a few sentences, I interrupted and said: "Look. We're excited to see you and I am looking forward to you meeting the kids, but there cannot be any outbursts on this visit in front of my family or kids. That simply cannot happen". What baffles me is that she knows the consequences of this. She knows they include NC, yet she's still willing to argue just to "be right" or "share her side of it" or just protect her fragile inner-self.  So we'll find out if she is in fact "trainable". My game plan doesn't change. It's zero-tolerance for this shit. She attacks me or my wife a single time and I immediately warn her that if it continues we're leaving. She does it again and we leave and she won't get to see my kids.

I guess I have no questions here. Just thoughts and venting. Thanks for reading!

[feralcat]

Bravo !
I envy you your fire. Anger can be a great tool if managed properly
I hope the visit goes ok.

[Cat of the Canals]

So much of what you wrote exactly describes my relationship with my mother. Especially this: "In the past I used to think that giving her more of what she wants would help the relationship. I realized a while back that no, it doesn't. Nothing I do, no amount of time I offer will fill the hole inside of her. So, I must give only what I can."

I tried and tried. Everyone told me she wanted more, so more I gave. And yet I heard the same exact things. She wants to see me MORE. She wants me to call MORE. And that was when I noticed a theme. It was always about what she wanted, and she always wanted more. The notion that a relationship goes both ways is a foreign concept to my mother, I think.

No wonder we always come away thinking we are somehow "not enough."

You clearly have a lot of insight into this, and I'm sure you struggled like hell to get to this place, so I want to commend you on that. And I wish you and your family the best of luck during the visit and beyond.

[Call Me Cordelia]

Hi, I'm just catching up on this thread. Wow. A lot of good advice, and I understand the visitation is imminent.

I do have a few red flags that I believe haven't been mentioned yet.

The timeline between resuming contact and meeting the children is very fast, in my opinion. For myself and my DH's parents, he is vvvvlc, I am NC and so are our children. If they want to see the kids, I personally need to see major improvement on a consistent basis over time before I will reintroduce them to the children. I will not subject the children to any "experiments" of the nature you describe. Simply because for them, the stakes are high. They have an idea of grandparents from what they see with their friends with normal grandparents. If they thought they could have it, and then I stepped in and said NO, AGAIN... well we all know who would be the bad one. And it would be trauma. And back to therapy we go. Nope, better just take things reeeeal slow.

I doubt we'll ever get the chance to even discuss meeting children until they are adults, truthfully. But if they are not willing to go along with whatever terms you set for the good of those children, you have your answer. It is certainly not too late to change your mind on whether meeting kids is even on the table at this visit. You have made things ridiculously easy for them, to be perfectly honest. They have to behave themselves for one stinkin' dinner after they've reduced your wife to needing moral support to even be in the same room as them. And she's fearing for your marriage as a result of just this one meeting. Yikes!

If your mother hates the "rules," that tells me she does not have the necessary insight into why those rules are in place or the humility to accept without simmering rage that you have all the power, you set the terms, you control access to your children. That's the way it is even for healthy grandparents! But if her saying her side and protecting her ego is more important than seeing you and her grandchildren, are you willing to accept that for your kids? If so, why?

I have the most empathy for your wife in this situation. She didn't ask for any of this, and I'm pretty confident she's only doing this to please you. I really wonder at your going through with it after the obvious distress it's causing her. If it were me in her shoes, which is very easy for me to do since my own DH has repeatedly expressed hope for reconciliation, I might go through with it in the hopes/expectation that they just blow it up and then I can just point to that and say we're done. But that's really quite a gamble. Everyone at that table will have a desired outcome, but your wife is expecting to be hurt. I'm concerned that she feels she needs a witness, although I certainly understand that. I hope that your SIL is firmly on team Mr. AND Mrs. Thenextme.

I'm heartened to read that you have learned to trust your wife on her interpretations and insights. Sometimes the FOG can roll in at inconvenient times. It sounds as if you are nervous and maybe even in a bit of fight or flight in anticipation. That's all understandable. But that hope might very well flare up and the emotion take over, causing you to temporarily override your wife's insights or failing to see covert jabs, etc. I know that's happened with my own DH time and again. I would identify some sort of high-handed behavior or passive aggressive or sly insult with barely plausible deniability, but his denial kicked in immediately and he'd say I was overreacting or they didn't mean it like that or worse, that I was determined to see the worst of them. But then after a long time, he would come back and admit that I was right, even months later sometimes, when I wasn't even thinking about it any more. It's going to be awful to come out of that dinner, and instead of being able to relax, to have to decide whether you should do it again with your kids the very next day! And very possibly not agree! Talk about pressure!

One night is not enough time to think through everything that happened. You are very likely to both be in major trigger mode, and that's not a good state for deciding anything. My suggestion is both of you to take very thorough notes and then completely table any decision on the relationship going forward for a good long time. As long as your wife wishes. This cannot be pressured or rushed if you desire a good outcome for all. Your parents broke it bad, and they can very well wait for the ones they have hurt to make up their minds. As others have said, they are incredibly lucky they are being given any kind of a chance here. In the meantime take very very very good care of that woman!

[Call Me Cordelia]

Coming back to add a couple of links that I think are relevant to your situation:

https://outofthefog.website/what-to-do-2/2015/12/3/put-children-first

This is just a general organizing principle for all these decisions that I'm sure you can agree with, but it's something DH and I have found we need to get back to when our inner child is crying so loud. The actual children's needs come first. Not the adults.

http://narcissistschild.blogspot.com/2017/08/dear-estranged-and-alienated-parents.html?m=1

This is one I've come back to time and again when the specter of reconciliation with my IL's haunts me again. It helps me approach from a position of strength and not fear, and reorients me to the reality of the situation.

I wish you and your family all the best!

[thenextme2020]

Hi, I'm just catching up on this thread. Wow. A lot of good advice, and I understand the visitation is imminent.

I do have a few red flags that I believe haven't been mentioned yet.

The timeline between resuming contact and meeting the children is very fast, in my opinion. For myself and my DH's parents, he is vvvvlc, I am NC and so are our children. If they want to see the kids, I personally need to see major improvement on a consistent basis over time before I will reintroduce them to the children. I will not subject the children to any "experiments" of the nature you describe. Simply because for them, the stakes are high. They have an idea of grandparents from what they see with their friends with normal grandparents. If they thought they could have it, and then I stepped in and said NO, AGAIN... well we all know who would be the bad one. And it would be trauma. And back to therapy we go. Nope, better just take things reeeeal slow.

I doubt we'll ever get the chance to even discuss meeting children until they are adults, truthfully. But if they are not willing to go along with whatever terms you set for the good of those children, you have your answer. It is certainly not too late to change your mind on whether meeting kids is even on the table at this visit. You have made things ridiculously easy for them, to be perfectly honest. They have to behave themselves for one stinkin' dinner after they've reduced your wife to needing moral support to even be in the same room as them. And she's fearing for your marriage as a result of just this one meeting. Yikes!

If your mother hates the "rules," that tells me she does not have the necessary insight into why those rules are in place or the humility to accept without simmering rage that you have all the power, you set the terms, you control access to your children. That's the way it is even for healthy grandparents! But if her saying her side and protecting her ego is more important than seeing you and her grandchildren, are you willing to accept that for your kids? If so, why?

I have the most empathy for your wife in this situation. She didn't ask for any of this, and I'm pretty confident she's only doing this to please you. I really wonder at your going through with it after the obvious distress it's causing her. If it were me in her shoes, which is very easy for me to do since my own DH has repeatedly expressed hope for reconciliation, I might go through with it in the hopes/expectation that they just blow it up and then I can just point to that and say we're done. But that's really quite a gamble. Everyone at that table will have a desired outcome, but your wife is expecting to be hurt. I'm concerned that she feels she needs a witness, although I certainly understand that. I hope that your SIL is firmly on team Mr. AND Mrs. Thenextme.

I'm heartened to read that you have learned to trust your wife on her interpretations and insights. Sometimes the FOG can roll in at inconvenient times. It sounds as if you are nervous and maybe even in a bit of fight or flight in anticipation. That's all understandable. But that hope might very well flare up and the emotion take over, causing you to temporarily override your wife's insights or failing to see covert jabs, etc. I know that's happened with my own DH time and again. I would identify some sort of high-handed behavior or passive aggressive or sly insult with barely plausible deniability, but his denial kicked in immediately and he'd say I was overreacting or they didn't mean it like that or worse, that I was determined to see the worst of them. But then after a long time, he would come back and admit that I was right, even months later sometimes, when I wasn't even thinking about it any more. It's going to be awful to come out of that dinner, and instead of being able to relax, to have to decide whether you should do it again with your kids the very next day! And very possibly not agree! Talk about pressure!

One night is not enough time to think through everything that happened. You are very likely to both be in major trigger mode, and that's not a good state for deciding anything. My suggestion is both of you to take very thorough notes and then completely table any decision on the relationship going forward for a good long time. As long as your wife wishes. This cannot be pressured or rushed if you desire a good outcome for all. Your parents broke it bad, and they can very well wait for the ones they have hurt to make up their minds. As others have said, they are incredibly lucky they are being given any kind of a chance here. In the meantime take very very very good care of that woman!

Thank you for your very thoughtful response. Yes, I agree that the timeline between meeting them alone and them seeing the kids is short. As I reflect on what you wrote, I realize just how much of this I'm expecting to go right. The dinner has to go well, my wife has to feel ok afterwards, then we have to rally and see them the next afternoon. Is it possible that it all happens without any issues? Yes, but the more I think about it the more I think about how quickly it could all go wrong. All it will take is my mom saying something like "yes we are sorry but what about this this and this, and what about our feelings?". Talking out our issues will not work. It never has and it never will. I will try my hardest to make sure that the conversation doesn't go there, but if my mother overpowers and takes it there I will have to put an end to it immediately. I might be successful, or I might not be. All I know is I will intervene and do my very best. If my mother is unhinged there is nothing I can do. Over 4 years I have collected a lot of data and signal. More of it has been positive than negative. This is why we're taking the chance. You might be asking yourself, "why is he trying so hard with people that require so much work?". The answer is very complicated.

As I've learned more and more about BPD I realized that the frustration that my Mom carries is really just shame and sadness. It's really hard for her to accept her shortcoming in a mature way and communicate that with civility. Yes she is protecting her ego, but she also just lacks good communication skills. Because she lacks this skill and suffers from anxiety, people rarely get to see her better qualities. I know it must sound like I'm explaining away her BPD or making excuses for it. In actuality I'm trying to figure out when compassion comes into the picture. Not seeing your son or grandkids for 4 years sucks. To what extent do I allow her to vocalize that pain before it becomes unproductive? To me it's fine if she says she's been sad and has missed us, but the second she starts telling her side of it, her two cents, and and mention of "things we did that caused her to act the way she did", I'm going to have to put a stop to it. And when I really think about it hard, I get that she's been sad, but what about all the pain her controlling behavior caused me and my wife? I don't intend to bring any of that up again, and I don't want the conversation to be all about how hard NC was for her either. That would be a disaster. I just want to keep things high-level and medium chill.

My wife and I agree that if anything major goes wrong at the dinner then we won't be introducing the kids the next day. My Mom keeping it together for 2 hours is certainly not a guarantee. It is possible that my wife and I might see some things differently after the visit, but my radar for the unacceptable and abusive has improved exponentially over the years and I feel much more confident that I'll know exactly what happened. My wife and I are closer and more emotionally connected than we ever have been. Is it possible that my wife expects this whole event to explode and can use this event to say, "see, it's untenable". Sure absolutely. But I know that she also wants to see if they are in fact trainable and if we can find some way for this to work. That's what makes this shit so hard. It's all so, so complicated. It's all really really hard. It isn't at all fun losing sleep over whether or not my Mom is going to keep it together and not point fingers at us at dinner. At this point I'm certainly not blinded by hope or false expectations and the fight or flight has definitely kicked in. I now just have to accept that the outcome here is not in my hands, and if it goes south it isn't my fault. I can't be wrong doing what is right for my wife and kids if it comes to it. If my Mom chooses to go to war than she cannot be surprised by the outcome: We're not going to fight back, we're just going to leave and go on with our lives.

[Hilltop]

thenextme2020 - people are not trainable, especially not PD's.  I fear you are going into this with too much emotion.  You seem triggered already and I don't mean that to sound harsh.  I mean your parents have not changed, you may have, but they most likely haven't.  They probably will fall into old traps and old patterns.  I am wondering if you have already fallen into old patterns.  You have outlined the rules already, told them what not to do, you have already told the PD, the boundary to stomp.  It's like telling a toddler no you can't have that, so they focus more and more on what they have been told they can't have.  Let go of holding on so tightly, let go of trying to control everything.

Take a deep breath and let go.  Leave the emotion at home.  Go with the knowledge that they probably will try to stomp some boundaries.  Have your deflection techniques in place and use them.  Let go of the worries about your mom and her anxieties or jealousy over which family you have spent more time with.  Her thoughts and feelings are not your concern or your worry. Leave that with her.  It's so much easier when you don't care but I feel like you care so much and this heightened state may not help with reacting calmly.

I really hope the visit goes smoothly but it's not solely on you.  You can put a thousand rules in place but you can't control anyone else.  Only yourself.  So go forward and let them handle themselves, you do not need to remind them not to rage.  You only need to show up and be kind and gracious.  You are on edge, so stop focusing on them and focus on calming yourself down before the visit.  It will be what it will be.

[Leonor]

I'm not understanding why this is happening at all.

Who is all of this fuss and muster and suffering for?

It's not for your kids. You don't even want them to possibly enjoy their time with the adults in their family who do love them.

It's not for your wife. She's in knots, begging for a kind soul to be there just for her.

It's not for your family. The one that you created.

It's not even for your family of origin. If they really cared about any of you, they wouldn't have been so toxic as to almost ruin your marriage.

This is about you. Your loss. Your pain. Your fantasy.

Don't drag your wife and kids through this.

[Call Me Cordelia]

I'm inclined to think Leonor has a point. There are lots of things I could say. A few things you said really stood out and now my alarm bells are really ringing.

Over 4 years I have collected a lot of data and signal. More of it has been positive than negative. This is why we're taking the chance.

Have you heard the one where they behave 90% of the time and are abusive 10% of the time, you are still stressed 100% of the time you are with them?

I bet the same was true when you started to set boundaries. I doubt physically abusive parents hit their kids in >50% of their interactions with them.  The acceptable abuse level in my view is 0%.

Which brings me to the next point, of spending so much time collecting data and just thinking about them generally:

You might be asking yourself, "why is he trying so hard with people that require so much work?". The answer is very complicated.

Actually I wasn't asking myself why. Maybe a bit of projection though!  Is it though? Or better, does it need to be complicated? I'm thinking clarity would be far far preferable here. And yes, you are in fact putting sooo much into this thin hope, which, given the very few bits of data you've shared, you already know is futile. So ok, I'll bite: Why?

I will try my hardest to make sure that the conversation doesn't go there, but if my mother overpowers and takes it there I will have to put an end to it immediately.

Evidently you don't trust your mother to behave herself. Seems justified. She's already been trying it on over the phone and pushing against the rules you've established before she even gets to see you, knowing you could simply cancel the whole thing. To her this is a power struggle. You are aware of this. I'm starting to suspect it is for you as well... you can control things right back and "make" things ok, if you just have the right technique, strong enough boundaries... In other words the same old lie where if you are good enough, your parents can be good enough.

You are also way controlling things with your kids. You say you want them to have the chance to know your parents, but have to have a hundred scripts ready to go exactly so your kids DON'T see your real, uncensored parents for who they are. They only get to see the dad-trained sham version.

I realize just how much of this I'm expecting to go right. The dinner has to go well, my wife has to feel ok afterwards, then we have to rally and see them the next afternoon.

That expectation seems extremely likely to be disappointed. Where is the evidence that things have really changed? Your wife and you are both already a mess, a state unlikely to be improved by your parents' presence. And yet, you have this expectation of it going "right." A dubious distinction. Again it smacks of control.

I realize I'm kind of saying the same thing over and over here. I'll stop piling on now. You are so right that this shit is so hard and terrible. I've been NC for 4 years now as well. It's definitely a struggle to accept that the outcome is not in your hands, that detachment is the only healthy response. And even that is not an attitude that I can hold onto consistently yet. I can know a thing in my head, but believing it and living accordingly is a different story. That's what we're all here for.

[doglady]

Hi thenextme2020,

Reading through this thread I can't help thinking that the amount of planning, overthinking, and trying to cover all the angles that you are currently engaging in seems enormous and unsustainable. I know it's purportedly only for a dinner and possible meeting with the kids but if you then picture this arrangement potentially continuing, well, there's a lot more where this came from. Do you actually want to do this as part of your ongoing life and have it take up so much time, effort and mental stress? Because I don't necessarily see that easing off in the scenario you're outlined if you let your parents back in.

While your need to control the anxiety about how the dinner will go is totally understandable given your mother's past (and presumably future) dysfunctional behaviours, the concomitant level of work you are putting into this meeting, along with stressing about all the 'players,' seems beyond exhausting, both mentally and physically.

You're clearly a very compassionate, intelligent and insightful person. That comes through in spades. But it's not uncommon for people with these high level skills to also turn themselves inside out trying to find solutions for unsolvable problems, because they think they can. It's a double-edged sword.

My two cents' worth: you're working way too hard. And that's a red flag if ever there was one. I wonder if people who've consistently let you down and stressed the hell out of you and your wife (and potentially your children) are worth all this work? Only you can decide.

I wish you well. Keep us posted.

[SunnyMeadow]

Reading through this thread I can't help thinking that the amount of planning, overthinking, and trying to cover all the angles that you are currently engaging in seems enormous and unsustainable. I know it's purportedly only for a dinner and possible meeting with the kids but if you then picture this arrangement potentially continuing, well, there's a lot more where this came from. Do you actually want to do this as part of your ongoing life and have it take up so much time, effort and mental stress? Because I don't necessarily see that easing off in the scenario you're outlined if you let your parents back in.

I agree with this and everyone else's thoughts. This one meeting seems to be putting enormous stress on you and your wife. All this time, effort and brain power for a short visit with a shaky outcome.

Now that I'm in my 50s, I realize life is too short to be giving others this much control over my life. We only get so much time here and it seems a huge shame to spend time dancing around these people and trying not to be hurt by them. That's what it comes down to, avoiding the hurt. It may not happen during this meeting but it will happen. Are they worth it? What do they add to your life? Maybe you want to see if they will hurt you again so you can feel justified to stand up, flip the table and leave for the last time. If so, I get that. Just keep in mind they are waiting to put the screws to you, to give your wife some on the sly, underhanded mean comment, to say something rude to your children about their parents.

It sounds like it would be easier on your mental health to spend the time building up the easy and smooth relationships with people who aren't out to hurt you. I've started putting more caring and time into the good relationships in my life and my mother is becoming an afterthought. I see her from time to time due to obligation, she's old as heck and in poor health. But it's just me who sees her, not my husband or children. I can't put them through that anymore. They don't want to see her anyway so it works out.

Anyway all this to say, protect yourself and protect your true family.

[Amadahy]

Hoping you found some answers, thenextme2020.  We're here to support you, however those answers come and whatever they may be.  Wishing you and your family peace.

[Hilltop]

Hey thenextme2020, hopefully you can come back and let us know how it went.  If the techniques worked and how you feel after.  I'm hoping you are feeling ok.

[thenextme2020]

Hi everyone. I'm posting to follow up on the experience meeting my PD parents after nearly 4 years and introducing them to my kids. There so much I want to say, and there is so much I haven't fully emotionally processed. Here is what I have so far:

As many of you read, I was a bag of nerves. It took my wife nearly 4 years to get to the point that we were ready to try again with my folks. I didn't sleep for the 3-4 days leading up the weekend, and I spent most of those days completely distracted from work. I put an enormous amount of attention on somehow orchestrating the visit to go well, if not perfectly. I got a lot of good advice here that I needed to let go of control, and let go of the fantasy that I could make the weekend go exactly how I wanted it to, or that I could make people be how I wanted them to be (namely my parents). I also realized that I was way too emotionally invested in the success of the weekend. So much anticipation, so much planning, so much riding on it. As the adult child of a PD parent, this is a theme in my life. I'm always an anxious wreck before big presentations and meetings. I realized that it's the same exact feeling I get before seeing my parents. I put all the pressure of the moment myself. I expect perfection, and I think I can control outcomes. I can't control the outcome of a presentation - whether my colleagues like me or if the presentation will go well. I care so much about what I look like because family image was so important growing up. I was raised to believe that if I wasn't perfect that I wasn't anything. Meeting your parents shouldn't feel like you're prepping to present to the board of directors. When I reminded myself that this wasn't a "performance" and that I didn't need to be liked, my nerves began to disappear. So much of what is robbed from us by our PDs is our self-esteem. Our self-worth. Our self-reliance. Our inner compass and ability to self-validate.

Ultimately, the weekend was actually really nice. My wife and I stayed really emotionally connected and on the same page. The dinner with my parents was pleasant, and my wife and I enjoyed the conversation. This might be the first and only truly pleasant interaction we've both had. It's almost as if we needed to spend these years away to unravel the enmeshment and build our separate identities. Build our own foundation. Build our own family and way of life. Identify our values, own them, and celebrate them day in and day out until we became them. Without all of that work over the years we would have been vulnerable to having our power taken away again. Without that work we could have regressed into child-like roles and allowed toxic treatment. It didn't happen this time because we showed up as more actualized adults with lives of our own. We showed up as two people who liked themselves, and knew that we were awesome just the way we were. That was our armor.

Afterwards my wife broke into tears and told me, "that was actually really nice", "why can't they be like that all the time?". I told her that while I agreed that it was a nice dinner, we cannot fully let our guard down as my parents have PD and can be unpredictable. It's heartbreaking to want to open up and give more to the relationship, but know that it is dangerous to do so. It hurts so much wanting to share deeper parts of yourself, and knowing that those things can be weaponized. We did a great job keeping my parents on an information diet, but also shared things we felt comfortable sharing knowing that we could stand strong against any push-back or judgement.

We agreed that what ultimately helped the dinner be pleasant and enjoyable were my boundaries, and self-confidence. My wife told me that I came across incredibly confident, and stood up for my point of view over. Interestingly my parents didn't interpret that as a threat and push for more conformity in thinking/enmeshment. It had been so long since I saw them that I felt like an entirely different human being. I felt strong, mature, and clear headed. I didn't regress into childlike behavior. I didn't agree with anything that wasn't accurate. I didn't allow them to tell me what to think or rewrite any history. I calmly and assertively called shit out in the moment. For the first time in my life I felt powerful. What matters here is that in the moment, my power didn't come from the need to "control", but from a calm knowledge that I was in fact, "free of them". I don't need them, or depend on them. They can't control me or hold me back. I was there because I love them. Because I wanted to be there. Not because I felt obligated. That gave me immense power and comfort.

At the end of the dinner my parents attempted yet another apology for their behavior, and directed it towards my wife. It felt a bit slapped on, and it didn't make me melt, but on some level I appreciate that they had enough self-awareness to try. They have PD, they only really care about themselves, and they lack good communication skills and the ability to emotionally self-regulate consistently. So much of my strength came from having deeply accepted that those are their limitations. My strength came from "becoming the observer". My strength came from not needing them to nourish or validate my soul anymore. It was hard at times to feel just how much our relationship dynamic has changed. It lacked some of the easy going banter we used to have. It at times felt awkward and superficial. I realize now that many of those lighthearted conversations from the past were actually toxic and negative. It was really nice being able to talk about interesting topics this time around and not just sit around and talk shit. My wife and I actually enjoyed everything we talked about - from current events, to real estate, finance, etc. I led the conversation for the first time in my life. It's amazing how enjoyable a conversation can be when you facilitate it rather than just being a passive passenger. This is a really helpful skill for interacting with PD parents.

It almost felt like we were meeting for the first time. I suppose it's the first time they've met their son as a mature, individuated, boundaried man - one who was quite capable of enforcing real consequences. They were thrilled to meet my kids the next day, and were quite warm and kind to both of them. Even though they were meeting for the first time and that is inherently awkward and hard, they made a real, almost touching effort to get to know them, play with them, and did so in a very respectful and kind way. They regularly asked how they can help, and what they can do - carry the baby, bags, get something etc. This was all so new to me. As the scapegoat, my parents never cared as much about me or my needs as they did my GC older sister. I know that they will never be able to care about me as much as they do her - but that's primarily because I don't give them the same supply and deference. My parents have always tried to be helpful in an engulfing way. This time it was as if they had some degree of awareness about what is actually helpful, and were ok when we said no to the help at times. This was weird and disorienting. I kept waiting for the other shoe to drop. I kept waiting for the moment that my "no" would lead my mother to explode or complain.

That didn't happen on this visit, but I know it is just a matter of time. The cynic and realist in me knows that to some degree this could have been one gigantic hoover. That said, there were too many real, positive data points to ignore. There was actually some non-negligible, non-superficial behavioral adjustments from my parents. Now, I don't believe they have changed. I want to be clear about that. I will say that they have a better idea of where the line is, and that will require continued clarity from me going forward.

This leads me to the daunting question of what happens now? Honestly, I don't know. I just know that I will proceed with an abidance of caution. They live on the other side of the country but that won't prevent them from now trying to dismantle carefully implemented boundaries. They are still a risk to me and my family, but I now feel so much more confidence in my own capabilities, and in my own strength. There are some boundaries we may choose to slightly relax and closely monitor: sharing more images, an occasional FaceTime, and perhaps one more visit later this year of equal brevity. This all scares me. I want to go slow. Really slow. So that if anything backfires I can quickly pull back and reduce contact once again. I didn't understand that strategy before (it was all or nothing), but I'm ready to try it.

In hindsight this is what I would have done differently in the lead up to the visit:

- Work on emotional detachment.
- Communicate the boundaries once and once only, unemotionally.
- Not give the visit and "what-ifs" so much headspace.
- Invest in even more self-care in the lead up (working out, reading, watching funny shows, focusing on my wife and kids and healthy people)
- Remind myself that one visit isn't the end all be all. I didn't cause it, I can't control it, and I can't cure it.
- Remind myself over and over that this wasn't about me being perfect or good enough, and it wasn't about my parents being perfect or good enough. It was about ensuring that the interaction and time together wasn't abusive, and actually added value to everyone.
- Spend way less time trying to curate the perfect outcome or control and dictate my PD parents behavior.

[Hilltop]

I'm so happy to hear it went well.  That is really great news.  It sounds like you have done so much positive work on yourself and it really paid off.  Although you said next time you don't want to give it so much headspace, I would imagine after 4 years of NC it would be nerve racking and unsettling with the what ifs and I would think it's absolutely natural to be so worried about how it was going to go.  Now that you have one visit done, I can only imagine that the next visit you will feel more prepared. I was worried the nerves were going to hinder you thinking clearly but they didn't and that's great to hear. Although it's good to hear that you have recognised that part of their PD is not being able to communicate properly and not regulate their emotions eventually the old patterns will resurface with them, it's great you acknowledge that and can put a plan in place for if they visit and it doesn't go well.

There were a couple of things you said which I thought were so true. You wrote "So much of what is robbed from us by our PDs is our self-esteem. Our self-worth. Our self-reliance. Our inner compass and ability to self-validate.".  I have been thinking about this a lot lately.  The loss of self esteem.  As you say you have worked on coming to like yourself and feel confident and I have no doubt this played a huge role in the success of the visit.  So much of the role of scapegoat is to take in the badness of the family, they project all those negatives onto us and so overcoming that in my opinion is huge.

Also "Remind myself over and over that this wasn't about me being perfect or good enough, and it wasn't about my parents being perfect or good enough. It was about ensuring that the interaction and time together wasn't abusive, and actually added value to everyone.". This is pretty much where I hope to get as well.  Accepting myself, accepting the limitations of my parents and having time together that isn't abusive and knowing that when a visit doesn't go well, I have the confidence to walk away and come back again later when time together is actually something of value.  I like that you noted that facilitating the conversation and not just being a passive passenger was helpful.  All too often I sit down with my parents with my shoulders hunched forward defensively and just let them dictate the conversation.  I'm sure my insecurity is written all over me.  I am hoping to reach a point as you have where I feel more self confidence and I can sit down with my shoulders back, head held high and actually have a conversation. 

I'm really glad the visit went well, I am also glad you acknowledge that whilst they made some overtures of friendly behaviour that ultimately unconsciously these family patterns of SG/GC will probably not go away.  Someone here recommended in a post Jerry Wise youtube video's which I recently checked out and he had a couple of great video's on scapegoating in families and how the dynamic goes back 5 generations and why it is done unconsciously.  I found it helpful in reminding myself that I can change my behaviour but ultimately others may fall back into  their familiar roles.  In fact if anything it is more likely they will however he also says that if we calm our behaviour it can have a calming effect on the family sometimes.  I am glad you are finding a way to be in contact with your family that works for you.  At the end of the day, what you are comfortable with is what matters, I am so happy you got value from this visit.