Where's the line between holding my ground & being mean?

[wisingup]

I was thrown together with uBPDm a lot this week.  Usually we gather on Christmas day at my brother's home, but he is recovering from surgery & his family just wanted a quiet day without hosting an event.  That left uBPDm without any kind of Christmas gathering, so my DH, DD and I got some takeout & went to her apartment to eat & exchange gifts.  Then 3 times during the following week, I took her to doctor's appointments.

When there are others around, I do OK with her.  I feel safe I guess, and can let down my defenses a bit.  When it's just she and I though, those defenses are on high & I tend to be irritable with her.  As of June 2021, she's alone in an apartment with no car after her recent UTI delirium episode, & increasingly dependent on me.  I know she can't help her situation, but sometimes she does something that rubs me wrong & then I have trouble hiding my irritation with her. This morning, for instance, she sent me an email with the subject line "Help".  The body of the email was simply - "call me as soon as you can".  This set off alarm bells, but when I called, she just needed me to help her order groceries.  It seemed to surprise her that that kind of vague message was alarming.  She apologized & then of course I felt bad for being annoyed with her. 

Then we moved on to discuss her plans to move to assisted living later this year.  She has funds for about 6-7 years or so of assisted living in a studio apartment, and then it will be Medicaid, or being supported by my brother and I.  I've told her this many times.  But today she said she wants a one-bedroom apartment in the independent living part of the facility.  Um - A) that would be tremendously more expensive, and B) what is the point of assisted living if you're not getting any assistance?  She's very bad with money, which is why I've finally taken over managing her finances, but now it's like she's a whiny kid asking for expensive toys & I'm in the position of telling her she can't have it.  Neither my brother nor I could EVER have her live in our homes, that option is not even remotely on the table, so if she blasts through her funds, we will have to cover the remainder of her years just as we are trying to retire.

Ugh.  I know the right answer here, & I will hold the line on the studio apartment - just needing to vent a bit after a mom-heavy week.

Here's to a brighter 2022 for all of us 

[Cat of the Canals]

This morning, for instance, she sent me an email with the subject line "Help".  The body of the email was simply - "call me as soon as you can".  This set off alarm bells, but when I called, she just needed me to help her order groceries.  It seemed to surprise her that that kind of vague message was alarming.  She apologized & then of course I felt bad for being annoyed with her. 

I'm calling BS on this. I just don't buy a grown adult being "surprised" that a message titled HELP with only a vague message tacked on would alarm you. There's literally a children's story about what happens when you yell "HELP!" but don't really need it. This is Day One crap. She was pulling a classic waif maneuver and now she's playing dumb because you called her out. It was a normal (and I think healthy) reaction to be annoyed with her. She crossed a boundary and manipulated you. How else should you feel?

As for the "I want a one-bedroom apartment" nonsense, find a simple, firm phrase you can repeat over and over in a calm, MC voice. "Unfortunately, you don't have the budget for that." No further explanation, since I'm sure she already knows this and seems like she is trying to guilt you into providing fancier accommodations. If she wanted a swankier assisted living pad, she should have saved for it.

[wisingup]

I'm calling BS on this. I just don't buy a grown adult being "surprised" that a message titled HELP with only a vague message tacked on would alarm you. There's literally a children's story about what happens when you yell "HELP!" but don't really need it. This is Day One crap. She was pulling a classic waif maneuver and now she's playing dumb because you called her out.

Thank you Cat - you are 100% correct here.  It so helps to have perspective from others!

[daughter]

I want a 1 bedrm apartment!!

That would've been nice, but a studio is totally satsfactory, and in your budget.

Outlandish demands for lavish gifts and subsidies come with the territory. My wealthy nmom had a habit of demanding expensive gifts from her children.  50 years ago, it was her expectation that young teen me, earning only $1/hr babysitting, and responsible for my clothes and personal expenses, should buy her $50 gifts.  As adults, she had GC "golden boy" trained to HIMSELF spend upwards $2000 for her xmas jewelry gift!  No wonder he was "golden", literally bearing gold.

[lkdrymom]

My father used to leave those types of messages on the answering machine.  Basically shouting into the phone to call him right away.  My mom was actively dying do I would be expecting the worst and I'd find it was something silly.

Tell her a one bedroom is not in the budget.  When I moved my father to AL I got him a one bedroom because I wanted him to have a nice place. Turns out he would have been just as happy in a studio and we would have saved $500 a month.

[Birdy]

I have been lurking for a while and haven't posted, but your situation is extremely similar to mine.

If you haven't done so already, I recommend consulting with an elder attorney and getting a POA in place as well as a trust set up for your mother's money. This could shield some of her assets if she needs to go to a nursing home.

My PDM (sort of diagnosed) agreed to go into independent living and then changed her mind. It was a great setup for her, but she didn't like how "old" everyone was there. Also, the facility basically told her to leave because she complained 24/7. PDM decided to then move to a small apartment with "young" people there. Our attorney said we can't force her to stay without having her deemed incompetent by the courts, so we let her move. She had to do it all on her own because my brother and I told her we disagreed with the decision.

She now lives by herself. She no longer has cooked meals available and has to order groceries. PDM eats only chips/snacks and drinks only hard liquor. There's nothing we can legally do.

Her attention-seeking behaviors will likely increase the more you try to control her choices.

[wisingup]

Thank you Daughter, Lkdrymom, and Birdy for your helpful input. 

I think I continue to be gob-smacked by her willingness to burden others.  That trait was shamed out of me as a child, but it's alive & well with her.  There's a real chasm between what she expects that her children would step up and do for her (without being asked of course) and what we are willing to do.  I'm pretty sure she assumed she would live with one of us in her old age, despite our rocky relationships with her.

Frankly, it's this very sense of entitlement and the "poor me" guilt-tripping communication style that causes us not to want to step up.  Many of the things I resent doing for her I would do joyfully for my mother-in-law. MIL hates burdening us and would only do it as a last resort, plus she is warm and supportive and a happy, pleasant person.

[treesgrowslowly]

Hi Wiseup, (great name!).

Detaching emotionally from a needy mother is one of the most challenging things that a daughter can do, regardless of age. This is something I have come to believe in my years on this forum, and as a the daughter of a mother who I had to detach from in order to save my sanity.

When I took steps to detach from my mother, I found therapists to be amazingly understanding of the predicament I was in. They understood that I was giving to someone who was taking advantage of me, and they could see the toll it was taking on me. If you have not spoken to a counsellor / therapist who understands your predicament, I would say that finding one, might really help you to sort out how to deal with the situation.

Needy parents are extremely hard to emotionally detach from and recover from, but it is possible.

Trees

[wisingup]

I was giving to someone who was taking advantage of me, and they could see the toll it was taking on me.

Thank you for this, Trees.  I'm having a sudden, much-belated revelation that her interactions to me are most likely rarely genuine.  I think they are manufactured and curated to get what she needs or wants from me in the moment. 

After I called her out on the complaining about going to the doctor's appointments, she has been overly apologizing when she needs my time or help with something and saying she wants to be less of a burden.  But then she wants to go to assisted living without any assistance, in exchange for a larger apartment?  This directly keeps the assistance burden on me now, and increases my likely financial contribution in the future.  Her actions are not matching her words in the slightest.

Its really increased my happiness & peace of mind in other areas of my life to not take things personally and give people the benefit of the doubt.  This was a skill I did not learn growing up with her - she is highly suspicious and critical of others, including me.  She takes everything personally.  But I'm thinking I need to stop giving her the benefit of the doubt at this point - she's still manipulating me.

[Birdy]

Hi Wisingup,

When my PDM wanted a new apartment, we let her look into it herself with no help. She envisioned herself living in a luxury unit with a pool, gym, etc...When she went to apply, she learned her retirement income would not allow her to rent unless she had a co-signer. My brother and I politely declined.

Perhaps, you don't have to be the bad guy here? Maybe the facility could tell her what she needs and can afford?

[Sneezy]

Wisingup - Your post has been rolling around in my head. Such a difficult question.  I struggle with drawing this line with my mother and in other life situations.  I want to be a good, kind, generous person.  I want to spread love, not hate (I'm not quite old enough to be a hippie, but I think the flower children of the sixties were on to something).  But I also don't want to be manipulated and taken advantage of.  It's a difficult line to draw.

I actually got into an argument with the minister of my church over this type of line-drawing.  He is very big into forgiveness, turning the other cheek, showing grace, etc., as most ministers are.  And most of the time I agree with him.  But I also think that some of this theology has been used to keep women in our places, and to goad us into doing things and taking on tasks that we don't want to do.  I told my minister that I firmly believed in everything he said, but I also don't think God intends for me to be a door mat (yes, I read that in a book somewhere, so not my original thought).

For me, I try to practice my medium chill and not to say hurtful things to my mom.  But when I feel used and manipulated, I pull back.  I "have a meeting" or "my car is in the shop."  And when it gets really bad, I just tell my mom "I am not your taxi driver" or "it's not my problem if you're bored, find something to do."  I don't always like how I feel when I say those things, and so I try not to say them.  But when it comes right down to it, I hate feeling taken advantage of, too, and so sometimes I cross the line and say something that isn't very nice just to save my own sanity.

Bottom line - I don't know the answer to your question about where the line is between holding your ground and being mean.  I suspect the line changes depending on circumstances.  But it's something I'm trying to figure out and something I continue to struggle with.

[Cat of the Canals]

Bottom line - I don't know the answer to your question about where the line is between holding your ground and being mean.  I suspect the line changes depending on circumstances.  But it's something I'm trying to figure out and something I continue to struggle with.

This reminds me of something I just saw on another site. It was the concept that being polite and kind is a good place to start in most interactions, but there is a sliding scale that comes out if someone is pushing boundaries or refusing to take "no" for an answer, etc. The scale looks like this: polite>factual>short>upset>rude.

So the first request or nudge gets a "polite" response.
"I'm sorry to hear you're bored, mom."

If she pushes again, you move to "factual."
"I know you're capable of finding something to do."

Again? Now we're at "short."
"I'm not interested in solving your problems for you."

The gist was that if someone manages to push past the "short" part of the scale, they kinda deserve whatever's coming to them.

[Happypants]

I'm not sure that there's a definitive line as such.  I believe a part of what makes dealing with PDs so difficult is that oftentimes I'm forced to communicate in a way that would be considered mean and an overreaction under most circumstances. When holding my ground, and by that I mean having a modicum of control over my life/time/emotions as an adult should have by default, I need to stray into that grey area of strongly worded statements that leave me feeling like rubbish afterwards because I've broken my own rules of compassionate communication. It's a grey area rather than a line because the emotion behind the strong words isn't one of contempt or distain, but the necessity to protect my autonomy.

[Sneezy]

I need to stray into that grey area of strongly worded statements that leave me feeling like rubbish afterwards because I've broken my own rules of compassionate communication.

You have really summed up the problem - the people in our lives who have personality disorders are experts at detecting when we feel like rubbish and exploiting that feeling of ours to further manipulate us.  Often times, they are the ones who have raised us to feel like rubbish whenever we don't respond in their desired way, and thus they have a built-in way to further manipulate, exploit, use, and control us.

It's a grey area rather than a line because the emotion behind the strong words isn't one of contempt or distain, but the necessity to protect my autonomy.

Yep, exactly!  What I need to do is learn how to NOT feel guilty when I protect my autonomy.  And this is so hard, because my mom did everything she could to raise me to be the person who caters to her and who feels guilty when she is unhappy.

[wisingup]

Great discussion everyone - thank you all for your thoughts! 

It's a grey area rather than a line because the emotion behind the strong words isn't one of contempt or distain, but the necessity to protect my autonomy.

I think this is an especially important point.  I resent being put in a position where I must behave in a way I am not comfortable with in order to protect myself.  Heck, I hate just being in a situation where I have to protect myself.  I resent that I currently have little choice but to be in that situation once a week or so, and I hate that it's my MOTHER who makes me feel so unsafe.

Anyway, it's become clear that getting her to assisted living or hiring a geriatric care manager must be the goal.  There has to be someone between she and I for her daily needs.  I will continue to manage things from afar.   And I'm practicing the following phrase in my head "You can't afford that.  THIS is what you can afford."

[Cat of the Canals]

That was a great way of putting it, Happypants!

[RainbowG]

I just wanted to thank everyone for participating in this discussion. I, too, have had to deal with this question lately, and what I've read here has brought me some comfort.

Both of my parents are PDIs. My father's health has been deteriorating for the past couple of years, and my mother is terrified of being left alone, so they've both become more depressed. My brother and sister were dealing with some end-of-life arrangements because I'd been NC for almost 20 years. Because of COVID, I started communicating with them again last year, but only by email.

My sister decided to go NC last year. I expected them to turn to me to "replace" her, and I was right. My father is asking that I deal with an end-of-life arrangement, telling me I'm the only one in the family he trusts with it.

I was seriously tempted to agree to it because I thought it'd be cruel to refuse and I don't want to be cruel to anyone, but after letting it sit for a while, I realized that if I agree to this, he'll ask me to do more, and I don't want to be that involved in their lives.

I have to agree that we sometimes have to do things that feel awful and appear mean to people outside of the situation. But flexibility is part of dealing effectively with life, and that includes being flexible when dealing with different people in different situations. Some require stronger boundaries than others and I believe that's OK!

Rainbow

[wisingup]

Thanks for sharing your story RainbowG, and welcome back. 

I listened to Kris Godinoz yesterday for the first time, & it made me think quite a bit.  She talked about why we feel so confused and upset after interactions with a PD - it's because of the cognitive dissonance where their words do not match their actions or our past experiences with them.  This is my mom to a T.  From day to day, I never know what kind of interactions we will have, because I think she manufactures a personality based on her mood & needs that day.  Right now, she is highly dependent on me & knows I'm annoyed with her demands and complaining, so she is overly fawning & love-bombing.  When I was more in the FOG, she regularly let me have it with hostility and rage.  What this has taught me is that the worse I treat her, the better she treats me, and vice versa.  That is a recipe for madness, in my opinion, & I need to get off this ride.