Medium Chill and Grey Rock with children in the house

[escapingman]

I have been practising MC and GR with my uNPDw for the best part of a year, most often effectively but sometimes been baited in to JADE. However, now to my problem. My uNPDw feeds on my normal relation to the children and uses that to pretend all is fine. Some of you might have followed my story, I am planning to leave uNPDw but until then I am struggling with how to handle this. I give an example.

uNPDw would lose her rag for any reason, rage at me, turn the kids against me and whatever. She would stay in this devalue/discard phase for a day or two. Then she would turn it all round and paint me white, but me doing MC and GR drives her insane as she want me back. At this stage, any interactions I have with the kids she takes it personally and pretend it includes her. Like yesterday at NYE, I decided that for the kids sake I would spend the evening with everyone (uNPDw had played the victim card she wasn't allowed to eat with us etc which was only going to set GC against me and if I ate on my own SG would feel bad). I continued doing MC and GR towards uNPDw but spoke and interacted with the girls. We then played a game, the girls request, and I don't think it's fair to them to be caught up in adult stuff, and was having fun with the girls whilst maintaining MC and GR towards uNPDw. BUT, uNPPw has now twisted this round and is now acting like we are all a happy family again, which we are not. She has pulled herself back into the I in the IDD cycle, whilst I am firmly not participating in the cycle at all.

So, how can I maintain normal interactions with the kids without uNPDw "stealing" the interaction and making it her supply? Is it even possible or is the only way to remove one of me or uNPDw from the house?

[SonofThunder]

Hello EM,

I cannot control the actions or reactions of my uPDw, but only my own actions and reactions.  I also believe the IDD cycle applies to my uPDw's actions toward me, not toward herself.  Surely when my kids were younger and living in the home, my uPDw would utilize her relationship with the kids to try and manipulate me in ways, but I decided to ask myself this one question when recognizing certain actions and reactions of my uPDw and uNPDf.  The question I ask myself is "does it REALLY matter?"   If yes, I conduct an action or reaction to protect myself (and the kids if needed).  If not, I let it float downstream.  This has very much helped me stay calm, on-course and guarded with my time, energy and planning. I determined what REALLY matters is my own actions, reactions, and protections. 

So using my own mantra for myself, i want to also ask you (no pressure to answer at all). 

Why would it matter if my wife acted like we are all a happy family again (which we were not) if I would have been in the process of a divorce? 

How does it hurt my non-adult children if my wife were to do so, in the process of a pending divorce?   

I personally would have desired to separate my relationship with my children from my relationship with my wife, if i was in a pending divorce or actually divorced with non-adult children.  I would assume, that in a divorced state, my wife would naturally attempt to make it that she and the children are all a happy family, without me in the home, and I would do the same.  Therefore my children would experience family-type matters and not my troubled relationship with their mother.

SoT

[escapingman]

Why does it matter if your wife "is now acting like we are all a happy family again, which we are not"? 

How does it hurt our non-adult children if our wives were to do so, in the process of a pending divorce?   

Good question SOT, I suppose it's about me and how I feel about my uNPDw. I struggle to look at her, hear her voice etc with all hurt she has caused me so fresh. I rather sit on my own rather than uNPDw thinking all is OK and keep coming to me expecting interactions. For my own health I need to keep her at an armlength distance, but I still want to be able to interact with the children. Until I have moved out I am not sure how to do this.

[SonofThunder]

EM, I understand your reply. 

I purposefully went back and altered my original questions within the editing time-slot allowed, toward my own relationship, to obtain more generic answers to contribute toward the conversation of your original post.  I will leave the questions as I altered. 

My relationship and conversational nature with my children was and still is, different than with my uPDw.  My wife's was/is also different with them vs me.  All is well in that regard.

SoT

[Poison Ivy]

I agree with SoT.

It might help to remind yourself that even if it feels weird in the moment to be maintaining the appearance of a "happy family" when with a spouse whom you plan to divorce, it is better for you and the children, in the short term and the long term, to keep the emotional temperature at a tolerable level (not too hot, not too cold).

[hhaw]

You ask too much, EM.  You'll never control what your stbx believes it does.

You can only control yourself and your ability to be responsive to your children/mission, regardless of the stbx's crazy.

Who cares what the stbx believes.  When she steals your focus it's bc you allow her to put your nose on particular pebbles, ime. 

Remember to pull back, get your nose off the pebble and SEE the entire field.

Focus on what you CAN do, not on what the stbx forces on you.  Remember to be curious and to stop judging.  It helps, ime.

  Remember your mission and get your head back in the game or leave if you can't.

The stbx will continue pressing your buttons.  The only thing you control is how responsive or reactive you'll be when she pushes.

Choose the responses serving your goals and to hell with what the stbx says, threatens or wants.

[escapingman]

Hhaw, it's more how do I manage to get the best out of the situation without getting the kids against me. Like this time, I had 3 options. 1) Let uNPDw sulk on her own and have the evening ruined by GC going against me. 2) Remove myself and let uNPDw be with the girls and have the girls disappointed I didn't join them or 3) Try to do damage limitation by spending the evening together all of us but still MC and GR uNPDw. I picked option 3 but uNPDw has used that as a reason to think all is fine and since been pestering me. I know the second I put her straight she try to turn the kids against me again, and if I keep MC and GR she will keep coming back like a bad smell until I either cave or she can kick off turning the kids against me.

I suppose with all this the only option is to move out ASAP as I can't win whatever I do.

[SonofThunder]

EM,

Imo, my continuing to remain in a home after having declared I desired a divorce, is a choice i made.  Since i cannot control the actions and reactions of anyone other than me, then my opinion, is that the only damage control I should be doing, is the damage I'm doing to myself and others by remaining in my home after my decision for myself.  If for some reason my remaining is now causing great tension, then i believe its my duty to leave the home, or if im not leaving until later, to behave as normal as possible, even though everyone already knows my decision.  I do not believe i must continue to restate my decision to adults and my children who understand my decision for myself implies im moving out sometime in the near future.

Since my decision is strictly my own, and will not attempt to alter my decision based on the temporary behaviors of my wife, then she can act any way she pleases in the home and I will simply act calmly (mc and noJADE in a calm manner similar to if I was a lady-friend of my wife) and move forward with my plans.  Imo, how my kids are affected by the behaviors of each adult remaining in the home is the responsibility of each adult, and possibly (age appropriate) some responsibility of the children as well. 

If I were simply living with a roommate (not my wife) that I was incompatible to live with,  and was contractually required to give a month(s) advance notice of my decision and informed my roommate I was moving out, i would not change my behaviors for the remaining months, nor would I expect certain behaviors from my roommate.  The roommate may try to hoover me into staying or be angry at me for my decision, but my decision and behaviors would remain unchanged, as i do not desire to alter my behaviors, as I'm not trying to change anyone, but simply live peaceably in my space until I depart.

You wrote "put her straight".  What does that mean?   Why do you believe you must "put her straight"?

SoT

[escapingman]

You wrote "put her straight".  What does that mean?   Why do you believe you must "put her straight"?

Probably a bad use of words, but I mean when she finally will realise she can't change my mind. When I move out or when she is served the divorce petition whichever will come first.

But I have realised, until I have moved out I will need to live separate lives with my STBX. The kids will always be welcome to join me and I will do things with them, but I will not force them to chose and it will have to be their choice. GC will most likely keep with her mum whilst SG will alternate. MC and GR on it's own doesn't work very well as stbx keeps violating my boundaries, this is where it gets a bit tricky as I need to tell her to stop whatever she is doing, without getting into an argument. Very tricky,

Thanks for all your thoughts SOT, they are very refreshing and I like the way you challenge my thinking.

[SonofThunder]

EM, you are very welcome.

You wrote "MC and GR on it's own doesn't work very well as stbx keeps violating my boundaries, this is where it gets a bit tricky as I need to tell her to stop whatever she is doing, without getting into an argument." 

Imo, its always a good refresher to remember that properly constructed boundaries are actions and reactions that I choose for myself, not an attempt to control the actions and or reactions of another person.  Therefore "violating my boundaries" is actually not possible with properly constructed boundaries and "tell her to stop" is not a boundary for me, as it does not pertain to controlling my own actions and reactions and it is nearly impossible to control another adult's actions and reactions, without my violating some ethics or laws. 

The proper constructed boundary on myself would state "when my uPDw starts doing a certain action or reaction, I will (fill in the blank) to remove and protect myself from this action or reaction.  So therefore, my uPDw can do whatever she desires, and I calmly and quietly protect myself with own own action and reaction boundaries.

SoT

[escapingman]

I understand what you are saying SOT, but if uNPDw physically stands in the way, stopping you from leaving a room, demand your attention when in a meeting, suddenly comes and throws her arms around you demanding a kiss? What do you do? Many times, I cannot remove myself without either being forceful and push her away, or to really tell her to leave (when I am working and cannot leave my desk). I know removing myself from the house is the long term answer, but I am not there just yet.

[SonofThunder]

I understand what you are saying SOT, but if uNPDw physically stands in the way, stopping you from leaving a room, demand your attention when in a meeting, suddenly comes and throws her arms around you demanding a kiss? What do you do? Many times, I cannot remove myself without either being forceful and push her away, or to really tell her to leave (when I am working and cannot leave my desk). I know removing myself from the house is the long term answer, but I am not there just yet.

EM, i will answer your questions. 

-I will first politely ask my wife to move aside from the door, as i desire to leave the room.  If she refuses, I will calmly get out my phone, tell her i am recording and then record in video while i repeat her words of refusal (on video) and then warn her that i will not be kept in a room/house/car/anywhere against my desire and if she is attempting to keep me in place, i will do whatever is necessary, within ethical and legal limits to leave the room.  If she does not heed my rights-warning,  i will proceed to leave the room while video recording from there forward until deescalated and I am where i desired to be.  If she continues to stand her ground and refuse me my adult legal rights, i will escalate as necessary to leave and protect myself. 

*I say that last sentence above, because PD's can become physically violent and I will sadly need to legally protect myself as necessary.  Its sad that this sometimes occurs, but i have witnessed this occur with my uPDf and my brother.  It is especially necessary imo, with PDmales and therefore, I carry legal and proper personal protection tools as a boundary i choose for myself as well. 

*Recording lets her know she and I are clearly being recorded at that moment (legal for both parties to be aware), and prevents her legally accusing her of wrongdoing after I successfully leave the room in an ethical and legal manner.  Recording will more than likely immediately deescalate the situation as well, and she will step aside, as PD's do not desire to be shamed in a potential legal situation where the video may be valuable to my case. 
 
-if my wife was a stbx (im not yet separated=my choice to remain) and throws her arms around me and demands a kiss, i will give her the most tastefully passionate kiss i am capable of, and if she wants to have sex right then and there, i will fulfill my marital vows to her in this way and fully enjoy my (and her) right to do so as a married couple.  Any of her sensual actions while not separated, no matter what purpose she desires by them, will have no affect on my plans to leave. 

-when i separate from her permanently (my choice alone), all sensual and sexual activity with her will end at that time, as its the law in the area I live, as I am required to live apart physically and sexually from my spouse for 1 year, before a legal divorce may occur. 

After i am legally divorced, i will refuse any sensual or sexual advances from her (or any other women), because its against my own choice for a code of ethics.  Although i will always appreciate the beauty and traits of the opposite gender and can do that while abstaining from sexual activity.

SoT

[square]

In addition to SoT's excellent ideas, you can also consider working outside the home in a public wi-fi connected space, either as a new daily habit, or just when known important meetings/calls will be happening.

[hhaw]

1.  You told your stbx the truth.  You're divorcing her.

You aren't responsible for reminding her every time she goes stupi....errr.....pretends you didn't file.  Just keep swiveling your head in circular fashion and stay
on
mission.  Ignore her words and actions.  Just.....focus on the mission.  That's it!

Mission is? 

Divorce
*Protecting children/ limiting harm
*Get kids into "new normal" routine
*Protecting self
*Getting everyone into therapy
*Learning and modeling healthy boundaries for and with the children.  *Setting logical consequences and following through without emotional input....
the book **The Parallel Process** is SO helpful here, till you get into T.

Educating yourself will likely empower you and sturdy you up, ime.


The  stbx is a creature of habit ( we all are) but also of escalation.  How do you document in your household?  You expect escalation, you need a plan to deal with it.

I find nurses to be amazing at understanding these situations.  If you have a retired nurse for a neighbor, consider enlisting their help, if they're willing, to be a witness, help with the kids, de escalate with their presence, etc.  Again, having a notebook to SHOW your situation with clarity is helpful, ime.

There are no good choices right now, EM.

Accept that fact so you can keep your eye on the ball.

When your stbx controls your emotions, she's herding you towards compliance OR upsetting you to the point she can blackmail you into compliance.  Things get worse when you tell her the divorce is still on so stop doing it.

You're just signaling to the stbx she must escalate beyond current methods to gain control of you again. That's dangerous and upsetting to everyone.

Just let her think what she thinks w/o feeling obligated to correct her.  It's ok to have a minute to breathe.

When putting up with her creates more distress than u can handle....leave.  For an hour, a day or for good, but don't lose sight of your mission.

You're going to be dealing with stbx telling her side if the story.  Consider getting out front with level, trustworthy people who can help keep you level and be witnesses, EM.

[JustKeepTrying]

In addition to GR and MC, I used the advice I was offered here and I found it helpful

Look at your stbx like a science project.  With scientific detachment.  In your mind, distance yourself when you look at her.  It will help with your own emotion when confronted with her doorway/demanding a kiss behavior.  This means you look at your feelings and thoughts as passing and disconnected from your interaction with her.

This mental approach helped me to detach and see what I needed to do so I could support the kids (like you do) and deal with my x's irrational mood swings.

[escapingman]

Yes the mission is divorce, plan is to file this week. I will speak to solicitor as soon as possible, she is back working tomorrow. I have defiantly got it that she will not understand or accept whatever I tell her so I better just file. She has managed to create a warlike situation in the house where she has manipulated GC to such a degree she is bullying SG and hurling abuse at me. As the words she is using against me are exact sentences stbx uses and way to advanced for a child of her age to construct it is all being fed to her. But when using them and I tell her off and tell her to not listen to her uNPDmum she ends up in trouble with uNPDmum for getting her in to trouble. But then stbx pretends she has never said it, altough I hear her saying the things and SG has told me that stbx is telling them both to no listen to me and all other things under the sun.   

[escapingman]

Still doing this couples councelling, I think she is about to make herself a big disservice. I am not sure how I could use this therapist, if at all, but today uNPDw lost it. The therapist had to remind her several times it's not good for children to experience rowing parents, and she still couldn't backtrack from her divine right to punish me. I was as honest as I could and said how she upsets and hurt me when she shouts at me and the kids and she just laughed it off as it was a joke. She then got into victim mode and started talking about the world being better without her. We have been booked in for individual sessions from now on, I am thinking if I wait just a little with proceeding with everything to have a one on one with the therapist to see what she has to say about it all. If she witness abuse and even witness stbx talk about suicide, could I get her sectioned? Could I use the therapist in trials? I am not sure, but it might be a way forward. I am rapidly coming Out of the FOG seeing her blatantly lie to the therapist and fabricate events. I might have given her the benefit of the doubt before, but no more. For the sake of the kids a solution need to be found, and that soon. I am starting to get very worried about moving out and leave them with her, not sure if that is a viable plan anymore. But with her breaking down in victim mode I think she might, just might, leave and move in with her mum, at least temporary.

Oh, and as this thread is about MC and GR. I was really accused for it today, she doesn't like my short answers and not paying interest in all her stories. Fun that as any story I have told has been ignored as uninteresting or used to bait me.

[Poison Ivy]

I suggest asking your lawyer whether the therapist could be asked to testify or otherwisei provide evidence about your wife's statements. My guess is that the therapist cannot (because of legal and ethics rules for therapists), but the laws about this vary depending on location. Also a consideration is that if the "door is opened" to the therapist testifying or providing evidence about your wife, your wife likely could insist on having the therapist testify or provide evidence about you.

[escapingman]

I suggest asking your lawyer whether the therapist could be asked to testify or otherwisei provide evidence about your wife's statements. My guess is that the therapist cannot (because of legal and ethics rules for therapists), but the laws about this vary depending on location. Also a consideration is that if the "door is opened" to the therapist testifying or providing evidence about your wife, your wife likely could insist on having the therapist testify or provide evidence about you.

I am not sure what obligations they have, if she finds out that there is abuse going on she might be obliged to report to social services. As the therapist is employed by the health service I would be surprised if she wouldn't have to do that if she suspects it. My uNPDw would not, as it looks right now, thread very carefully as all she is interested in the therapy session is to win. By winning, uNPDw thinks that would involve getting the therapist on her side and then me submiss and behave as she expects me to.

[JustKeepTrying]

In my experience and my xOCPDh did this frequently, the threat of self harm etc whenever I asserted my boundary or pushed back on his delusions gaslighting etc.  It took me years to realize it was manipulation.

Consider the straightest path.  File, get your kids and yourself help and get out.  Simple and straightforward and quick.