Supportive parenting or gaslighting by covert narc

[zenagain]

Been a while... with covert narc wife of close to 20 years... son now around 16 (ambiguity to protect my identity)...  I have been trying to wait until son is out of the house before filing for divorce (he is doing really well with me and in school (considering), so I am trying to not upsetting the apple cart - for better or worse...

My recent repeated situation and question I pose to the group:
Background:
- covert narc wife often tries to gaslight my son, or create a token economy for things he wants (tit for tat related to a simple request - basic power trip for her to feel like she is winning and giving him rewards at the same time... I digress - you guys know the drill).  Anyway, he recognizes it and stands up for himself... but often goes a bit to far as neither wants the other to have the last word or win (he starts to rant and take it a bit to far calling her names, cussing at her and insulting her when they are both trying to get the last word - its like watching pre-teen's fight with each other).
- Often I am around them at the time of the fight (hmmm...).... but choose not to get involved unless it gets way out of hand
- Of course, she turns his ranting at her onto me - "how dare I stay silent when he says such horrible things to (her)"..."your silence is your endorsement that he is allowed/okay to yell at me", etc, etc,  "How could you do that to me".  "I support you when he says stuff to you, how could you just sit there in silence!!!!"

My question:
There are two thoughts or paths to take when I am in these situations, and I am not sure which to consider the better approach:
1.  An approach from one of my (more than a few) therapists was, '.......  that is between her and him to sort out.  They need to work out how to interact between the two of them, and you need to allow them (particularly at this age)'.
- or -
2.  The approach from my covertnarcwife via txting or pleading in tears, that I should, '... be a supportive husband..... get in the middle (of them) to let him know it is not okay to talk to his mother that way!!' , etc, etc

In any normal relationship, particularly after 16y+ years, I feel that #2 is the correct answer - parents are on the same page and it is the son that has stepped out of line -  but in this relationship with a covert narc, it feels like I am being gaslit ... that the anger/fight between son and wife is being deflected onto me in order for her to feel like it is not her fault (but mine) and 100% mine to correct, get involved in, take the punches for her, have my son angry at me for her actions and behaviors.    If I do this, I feel it is often out of guilt and not the correct path to take for my son? 

If all that makes sense? 
Thoughts? 
-zenagain

[JustKeepTrying]

I don't think either option are the best.  Yes, your son is learning to assert his independence as is natural at his age.  It is normal that parents are not cool and push back is expected.  It is not ok to allow a young person to learn to talk back to people in authority.  If he knows this and demonstrates it with teachers, boss, etc.  Then the issue is with his mother.

In which case, she is causing damage.   Regardless, you don't win either way.

He is 16 and impressionable.  Perhaps now is the time to initiate the divorce and establish for him a safe place.

In my experience with therapists, they know so little about PDs.  Share the toolbox with your son.  Those are good skills with a narc as well as in life.

I hope you find peace and it's shitty that is happening to you.

[PlantFlowersNotWeeds]

I agree with the prior post.  And, neither option seems great.

We have some similarities - today is my 20th anniversary and we have a 17 year old son, he'll graduate spring 2023 from high school.  I wanted to stay married until he graduated, but I didn't walk Out of the FOG I ran, and when I stopped, I decided I just can't do this marriage thing with him anymore.   

My husband and son don't have too many negative interactions, but lately I just let it happen.  Later, I might go talk to my son; I'll recognize his feelings but encourage him to talk more appropriately (less swearing for him).  I also do the same to my husband, but it usually ends up with me being called names or much worse, so I only do it if his actions were over the top.

We need 2 homes - my son need some peace from all of this.  And, he'll have to figure out his father himself.  I'll try and teach him some tools, but without him really knowing I'm doing it.  I hope in a few months our house will be sold and I can relax.

One thought is just to let it be, until you feel like a line has been crossed and you need to address it. Then, think about how you will do that - in the moment? later? only with your son?  I do think that my presence did escalate some of the situations, so since I have, in a sense, Grey Rocked their interactions, it has gotten better. 

Good Luck

[JustKeepTrying]

I was hesitant to say more in the previous post buth PlantsFLowersNotWeeds is brave.  And I have talked about it before.

I left when my son was 17 and junior in high school.  I had to - my xOCPDh was physically threatening and devolving.  I tried to provided a calm place for my son but I admit I was wobbly several times and I was struggling with my ex's push pull and manipulation.  In retrospect, I should have allowed my son to figure it out more.  I did provide therapy for him and made sure he kept the appointments.  But the worst was when my x kicked my son out of the house prior to his senior year and I was unable to take him in due to the pandemic (I have stage iv cancer). My son had to couch surf his senior year of high school.

It's been over a year and my son has restarted a relationship with his dad again.  On his terms and I do not interfere.  I do not encourage or discourage. I just make sure he has money and place to go if he needs to talk.  I encourage him to journal.  But mostly I try to keep myself balanced so he has a safe place.

There was a time in my life when my kids insisted I tell them the truth at all times.  But I learned with the divorce that I have to keep that away from them.  I did through the marriage and they never saw their father (or at least I tried) for who he is.  So when I left they were confused and refused to believe.  They all have problems through and I encourage them all to stay in therapy.  I don't blame them - I wouldn't want to think my parents were disordered.  Plus they know i will love them regardless - they can't say that about their father.  It's a lose lose sitution and all you can do is your best.

[Lauren17]

I agree with the other posts that this is a tough situation and there is no "good"answer.

I'm in the midst of divorce from a similar length marriage with similar aged kids. I know what it's like to be stuck in the middle of these interactions.

I try to stay out of it as much as possible. When needed, I talk to my kids separately in an effort to get them to own their own behavior while not directly addressing the other parents. It's so hard!  But I keep chipping away at it.

[Gettintired76]

Zen, I feel your pain bro, as I deal with this almost daily. My son is 14 however from your story could be mine. I have broken up with his mother and that has created a new wrinkle, he will come to me "share" things then when his mother finds out, suddenly I told him whatever it was or pushed him to do this or that. I digress as I don't wish to hyjack your post. As for the answer to your question sadly I don't think that when dealing with a pd there is a right answer generally you are "damned if ya don't damned if ya do". All you can do really is consistently instill in your son that you love him and support him, while also preparing him for the real world. Teach him right from wrong (by word and example). You be the one to teach and show how to have proper interactions. That's really all that can be done imho. Hope I helped.

[Joga]

Zenagain, I have a somewhat similar situation in my family, although my child is much younger. My son is early grade school aged and autistic. He can be very challenging to parent at times. I'm good at helping him calm down when he has a meltdown or behavioral episode. My uPDh  takes these episodes personally and escalates them. It usually ends up with my son saying pretty hateful things to my H, and the first few times it happened I didn't say anything, because quite honestly, I understood where my son was coming from and generally agreed. My h was then furious at me for not backing him up. I've learned to diplomatically tell my son (in front of PDh) that he shouldn't talk that way to anyone while still validating my son's feelings after h leaves the room.

[gfuertes]

It sounds like you see your narcissistic future ex-wife as being on the same level as your teenage son.  There may be valid reasons for that, but from your son's perspective, she's not his equal.  She's his mother.  You (and perhaps your son) may not feel like she deserves respect - at least not when she's behaving like a teenager herself.  But stepping in and telling your son to stop yelling at/arguing with her is about teaching your son how to be civil, not just about defending your wife.

[Joga]

It sounds like you see your narcissistic future ex-wife as being on the same level as your teenage son.  There may be valid reasons for that, but from your son's perspective, she's not his equal.  She's his mother.  You (and perhaps your son) may not feel like she deserves respect - at least not when she's behaving like a teenager herself.  But stepping in and telling your son to stop yelling at/arguing with her is about teaching your son how to be civil, not just about defending your wife.

Agreed! That's why I tell my son it's not okay to talk to anyone like that. I want him to learn to be civil even when other people are shitty.

[IsleOfSong]

I deal with this all the time between my wife and our 14-year-old son. It's like I'm refereeing a fight on an elementary school playground, and it's exhausting and disappointing.

Echoing much of what's been said here, I'd suggest doing two things when this happens, and doing them in front of both parties:

1) Tell your son to watch his language and that he should express himself directly while not being disrespectful
2) Then turn to your your wife and tell her to get off his back over trivial things and to stop denigrating him, as it's unhealthy and not a fair fight to begin with since she's the parent

It's important to call out the bad behavior when it happens and to do it in front of everyone who's there to see it. Will it get them to think twice before doing it again the next time? Perhaps. Will you start to feel better because you're standing up and telling them the standards of good behavior you demand in your life? Absolutely. I've started doing this and it's helped me quite a bit.

[zenagain]

Thanks all!  In the end, he seemed to have gotten the message (don't cuss at people, don't yell and name call - more effective to communicate) when I spoke with him a day or so later..... she (the covertnarc) did not understand I how she was so wronged by her son and husband...