Leaving the guilt behind and moving on

[escapingman]

Thank you hhaw, amazing post as always!

This double bind, no win, lose lose situation is actually only a win win for me in a twist. STBX demands me to cancel my trip, I find reasons I can still go ahead and she finds more made up reasons I can't go. I am pushing this to the limit, but what she doesn't know is that I was thinking of cancelling the trip anyway. So now I have told her I will cancell without any further information given to her. She now demands to know what the trip was for, told her it doesn't matter as I am not going. So now she is fuming that I am not telling her what the trip I am no longer going on was for. If you can't win playing their game, make up your own rules as PD's always do anyway.

Yesterday she was shouting and swearing at me, pulled up all kind of wrong doings I have done. I ignored her and enjoyed a movie in my own room. If I had raised to the bait it would only have ended up in a circular. This morning she has already forgotten all the names she called me and acts like all is normal. Another tick in the box for "it really does not matter what I do as she will decide whatever she does anyway". If it wasn't for the kids I think I could manage, it would not be a fun life but manageable. But as I have the kids that's not an option. The biggest issue is that GC is making everything about STBX at the moment, she is giving away her own desires to please her uNPDmum and that is not going to end well. All my MC and GR towards STBX is complained about to GC by STBX and then used against me by GC. This is not something I can manage or change without being out of the house with her.

[escapingman]

So for so many years I tried to save my uNPDw from her childhood and her parents, it was a battle I could never win. Now, I have to fight the battle to save my own kids from her. This is a battle I intend to win. It will be hard, but has to be fought. SG told me that she can't send me messages when I am away because STBX is monitoring her phone when I am out, how sick is that? Any message she send me she deletes straight after sending it she said. SG really lost it with STBX yesterday and screamed at her, let it all out, shouted at her about how she hear voices in her head from all back chatting STBX is doing about me and all nasty comments to everything. It's impossible to deny it anymore, STBX is toxic and need to be moved on. I really do think SG would come with me and that STBX would be perfectly OK with that. The issue is GC, how do I save her.

[hhaw]

EM:

The more energy you invest in your exit plan, logistics for getting kids help and PROVING your stbx IS detrimental to your shared children, the better your chances for helping/ saving BOTH children, ime.

I notice the stbx surprises and knocks you off center often, which is normal, ime.  It also robs your focus from more productive activities, ime.

Getting kicked D's into therapy will likely be easier before filing divorce.  Ad rewards, the PD will likely have more ability to shut down all therapy if she isn't controlling it, ime.

IS there a shelter with crisis support in your area?  If so, consider getting that started with the girls and yourself BEFORE you file.  You can say it's to help the girls deal with the adult conflict.  You're an equal parent.  Ask your attorney what your rights are.  Courts like to keep the status quo in place, ime.

A Therapist or social worker specializing in crisis management seems like the best thing you can provide for yourself and the girls and I would really focus on that NOW.

I would try to focus on documenting the stbx's toxic acts and words. 

I would resist being blindsided and upset by them, bc it negatively impacts your ability to plan and be responsive.

If you can.....resist letting the PD shock you.  Accept she's toxic and doing trauma.....put all energy into documenting and improving your case/situation and likely victory.

I'd be in contact with a domestic violence shelter.....maybe consider going there when I file IF I failed to get the evidence to have the STBX taken in for a mental health evaluation for the suicide threats.

Looking back, I wouldn't waste a moment worrying about things I couldn't control.... it's wasteful and harmful.... it's detrimental to your mental health and harms your ability to problem solve.

Your stbx is broken.  She can't do any better or she would if.

She can't.

Accept that and stop allowing yourself to be yanked off balance by the stbx's outrageous behavior.  It's what she IS. 

Prove it to your attorney, the domestic violence advocates and mental health professionals at the hospital intake department IF YOU CAN.

Wasting another second feels ng outraged is playing into the stbx's hands, ime

Breathe.  Center yourself.  Organize your case.  Get therapy in place, whatever you can get, the sooner the better, but get it.

If your stbx is as toxic as you and she say......why haven't you DONE something concrete about it yet?

What concrete options are available to people dealing with domestic violence?

THAT'S more productive than anything you could be doing in your time, imo and it's only my opinion from far across the pond.

I hope you position yourself in the best possible way before filing, EM.  THAT is how you save your children.

[square]

Would it work for you and SG to use Snapchat or something instead? The messages can even be set to automatically disappear after being read.

[escapingman]

Thanks for your support.

I have got away for one night to get a breather. Feels great with some time away. But. I feel so guilty. Buy I don't know why I have this feeling of guilt. It is just so strong right now and I cannot point out why. I truly don't feel guilty for going away. I don't feel guilty for anything I done. I just feel so guilty. Is this normal?

Edit: Can the guilt come from that I enjoy myself on my own and then this feeling just took over?

[square]

Is your guilt the feeling your wife programmed?

I had some alone time last night, cooked while listening to some music and marvelled how easily I can feel happy if I can just be myself and enjoy stuff.

[JustKeepTrying]

Guilt.  As a recovering Catholic I am well aware of what guilt can do, drive and result.

It could come from anything.  Your guilt over marrying your stbx and the situation with the children; over a night away; over delaying filing; over filing at all; over chooseing chicken or fish.  Sometimes emotions are just that emotions.

The trip is listen to your emotions and ask yourself these questions:  What do I believe right now?  Is it true? Who would I be if I let go of that belief? and then Pivot or switch to a more productive belief if needed.

You are going to feel guilty.  Don't let it derail your plan.

[Joga]

Hi Escapingman! I read through your thread and had a few thoughts:

It seems like you really really want to leave but are having trouble getting over the hump of just doing it. When your wife does someone especially disordered, try thanking her (in your head, not out loud) for the additional motivation to make it happen. I have my moments with my H when he is acting normal and I feel guilty or wistful, and then he does something awful again and I think "oh yeah, that's why I'm leaving. Thanks for the reminder".

Guilt is a hard one. I feel guilty all the time. Reverse the rolls in your head and imagine treating your wife the way she treats you. Could you do it? Could you treat her like that without feeling guilty and like a horrible person? I'm guessing not. She should feel guilty, not you. Don't carry the guilt that she should feel.

I wish you peace and strength going forward.

[hhaw]

EM:

Unfortunately, I think you won't have the opportunity to examine your enduring sense of guilt until you're in therapy.

Likely, you've always felt guilty for having time and self care turned toward yourself.  Always felt undeserving and maybe you can trace that back easily.  Maybe not.

I tend to believe that's common in relationships with one very toxic, blaming, disordered and selfish person  involved with a mate who feels responsible for the PD's happiness.

Why one feels responsible is a question for another day.

What's helpful now is noticing all your emotions, acknowledging them and bringing your focus back to the mission, ime.

If you allow your guilt to derail you.... it's still ok, as long as you find your way back to the path you committed to when you felt level and made a good exit plan to work towards.

The less focus you give to the guilt....the less power it and your stbx have over you.

When it comes up, try to get curious and stop judging it good OR bad.  Just let it be and see what it has to say.  Welcome it, bc it belongs, even if it no longer serves you  in your adulthood ... At least you're aware.   Awareness is where we find choice, discernment and replacement of old habits and coping strategies.  Nothing to be scared of.  This is good and you might consider starting a journal ( your stbx can't access.)

I'm sure you keep a calendar with daily notes about the stbx's behaviors, the children's schedules/ interactions and school/ activities for court.

Something for yourself and therapy might help you cope with the really tough emotions......and breathing into them......and anything else you find helps calm yourself.....physical activity, for instance.  You work out now.  Maybe go, do that when the guilt takes a hold and you can't shake it.  Giving up drinking was wise.  Eating well will also build you up.  You'll need your strength.

Later on a T will help you process and file the guilt in historic files, out of your limbic system.  You can and will be free of it, if that's what you choose to focus on.  You can DO that, EM.

You'll be modeling and teaching your children as you learn.  The kids will have Ts to help them deal with their guilt and trauma.

Right NOW....your focus and work will determine if you move through this difficult period with economy of motion, resources and trauma.....or not, ime.  Choosing economy of motion every time is better, yup yup yup.

Remember, economy of motion will mitigate the harm to you, your children AND the stbx,even if stbx doesn't understand it and behaves like a possessed person in pain.  You can keep things on track, despite her distress and her crushing the children and leveraging their safety..... but you must be responsive and prove she's doing it so you can limit and stop the harm.

That's a lot if balls in the air.  A lot to face and deal with, esp when your brain pathways want peace and to escape conflict so badly....you can barely stand the discomfort of sticking to the plan instead of placating the stbx to get a moment's peace.  It's a very short lived payoff with long term negative consequences when giving in to the stbx, ime.  You extend all suffering if you give the stbx anything.....so stick to your plan once you make it, EM.  Think of it as the kind cut being the stinkiest cut.  You're going to have to suspend kindness toward your PD in favor of being the adult in charge.  It's not easy being a consistent, calm, focused parent who does what's best, even when it feels super hard. 

Right now your nose is on the pebble of guilt.  If you can breathe into it ...tend to those feelings.....like you would a small child, you can breathe space around it mindfully.....so you can get your nose off the guilt pebble TO SEE THE ENTIRE FIELD with all the other pebbles and ricks and trees and sky and grass.

You will create spaciousness for yourself.  You will create emotional distance while expanding your window if resilience.

Until then and as you practice, you need a plan and the guts to stick to it without faltering.

Your children will likely thank you for it some day......so.....choices.

You're doing great, EM. 

[hhaw]

One more thing, EM.

It's likely research into codependence will resonate with you and your guilty feelings.

When we're codependent we NEED our mate and kids to be ok for us to be ok.

This creates reactivity and shifts us into fight or flight mode, which shuts down frontal lobe access to logic, reason and creative problem solving brain functions.

Once you give yourself permission to be ok.....even when the stbx and kids aren't ok......you gain the ability to respond and be responsive to them.....to SEE choices and discern between good, better and best.

If you remain stuck in reactive survival but ain you act without thinking.....your brain just does what it's always done which is whatever you've always done to shut the stbx up and restore imagined peace.

You understand that's never going to happen.  You're Out of the FOG now.  Accept and get on with restoring yourself so you can teach your children how to do that for themselves, EM.

Responsiveness means you have more choice and ability to respond.

It will feel odd and foreign and that's ok.  It'll pass and turn into habit and comfort and eventually joy, em.

I promise.

[SonofThunder]

Hi EM,

I personally believe the term 'guilt' is reserved for when I have done something wrong. For me, 'wrong'  is defined as:
A: illegal
B: immoral/unethical
C: hurtful to another living thing. 

If I have done none of those three, then I deeply analyze what im feeling and reclassify my feelings as another term.  I agree with some other comments already made, that this mixed feeling I have, when I am faced with a reprieve from being mentally on-guard 24/7 around my uPDw, is a programming that is innate to my fight-or-flight.   

I am able to get away on occasion, and have been keeping notes on my feelings and my activities.  I find that it takes almost two full days for my mind and body to settle down from the initial feelings that I have when I step away.  My mind is programmed to have the toolbox on-guard 24/7, and to be planning one-step ahead at all times when around my uPDw.   When I step away, my mind and body enter into a freedom hyperactivity and I find my heart and mind racing in a mode of confusing thoughts. Yet, there is no reason to be in fight-or-flight when away, but it seems to noticeably rise to the surface when away. Whereas when I'm near my uPDw, fight-or-flight is so normal, its mostly unnoticeable. 

An analogy to my experience is my vehicle with automatic transmission.  I simply slip it daily into D (drive) and go about my driving, not paying attention to the vehicle's self gear-selection or the rpm of the motor.  But when I step away from my uPDw, its like I dropped my vehicle into S (sport) and now my normal mental habits and my physical sensations are interrupted by my hyperawareness that im in a higher gear, the rpm's are higher and vehicle is more responsive to the throttle.

After the 2 days of settling into being away, my mind and body seems to calm down and I get into a very relaxed (almost lazy) routine vs the normally hyperactive mindset of my vigilance at home.

Therefore, I want to suggest that while you are still deciding your marital situation for yourself, you may want to consider being away for longer periods, which may allow your mind and body to settle down from the switch, each time you get away.  Also i want to suggest consideration of your definition of 'guilt' to see if its really the right term for what you are experiencing.   

Enjoy your time away,

SoT

[Starboard Song]

Hi EM,

I personally believe the term 'guilt' is reserved for when I have done something wrong. For me, 'wrong'  is defined as:
A: illegal
B: immoral/unethical
C: hurtful to another living thing. 

If I have done none of those three, then I deeply analyze what im feeling and reclassify my feelings as another term. 

This is a powerful tool that should not be overlooked. We can stop sometimes, when we are wracked by a feeling, and ask "regardless of my feelings of guilt, am I guilty?" That let's us back up from the emotions and complaints of others, which induce feelings in ourselves, and try to objectify the question. We may be able to affirm "I am not guilty" on that basis. If we can, that goes a long way toward resolving the feelings of guilt.

I'd modify your definition a tiny bit, SoT, just to note that with a BPD person, for instance, politely declining a casual and routine dinner invitation can leave them feeling betrayed and abandoned: very hurtful. And yet we aren't guilty of having done anything wrong. I don't know if item C needs to say "knowingly hurtful," that we did it on purpose, or maybe "reasonably hurtful," that a reasonable person would have been hurt. But either way I really like your approach, and everyone can apply it in their own ways. So good!

[SonofThunder]

Hi EM,

I personally believe the term 'guilt' is reserved for when I have done something wrong. For me, 'wrong'  is defined as:
A: illegal
B: immoral/unethical
C: hurtful to another living thing. 

If I have done none of those three, then I deeply analyze what im feeling and reclassify my feelings as another term. 

This is a powerful tool that should not be overlooked. We can stop sometimes, when we are wracked by a feeling, and ask "regardless of my feelings of guilt, am I guilty?" That let's us back up from the emotions and complaints of others, which induce feelings in ourselves, and try to objectify the question. We may be able to affirm "I am not guilty" on that basis. If we can, that goes a long way toward resolving the feelings of guilt.

I'd modify your definition a tiny bit, SoT, just to note that with a BPD person, for instance, politely declining a casual and routine dinner invitation can leave them feeling betrayed and abandoned: very hurtful. And yet we aren't guilty of having done anything wrong. I don't know if item C needs to say "knowingly hurtful," that we did it on purpose, or maybe "reasonably hurtful," that a reasonable person would have been hurt. But either way I really like your approach, and everyone can apply it in their own ways. So good!

Starboard, thanks for the feedback.

Imo my 'hurtful' definition for myself is related not to emotional feelings or opinions of another living thing, but rather physically or financially hurtful. Possibly (objectively) 'situationally' should be as well.  I agree with you that emotionally hurtful is very subjective, and a PD playground in my experiences. 

Therefore imo, my A, B and C is for my own knowledge in defining a feeling of guilt for myself, not based on the subjective opinion of another living thing.  As an example,  I can step lightly (not purposefully) on my cat's tail and it may not have truly caused the cat real pain, but the cat imo, shrieks because it was startled and was scared of potential pain.  If I personally believe my step was heavy enough to actually cause pain, I may feel guilty, but if not, i do not feel guilty.  I use this example because its not human and its based on my own opinion, not a subjective opinion of the cat. 

Yes i agree with your example that politely declining is just fine, and if the person overreacts, thats on them.  But if I say I am coming and then rudely just not show or last minute decline, that is objectively B=unethical and C=hurtful, as I may have caused them to spend excess money by expecting me, or could have invited someone else in my place (situational).

Purposefully, or knowingly are good additions, but imo premeditation falls under part B, because intentionally trying to be hurtful is unethical.  As I mentioned, I could even add 'situationally' to the C list (influencing situations, events, relationships, time etc.) but again purposeful situational hurt/harm is B: unethical because its purposeful. 

Maybe a better statement for C should be: objectively physical, financial or situationaly harmful?  Accidents can fall under this heading and are not intentional but can cause real physical, financial, and situational harm and therefore my feelings of guilt over an accident  vs some other term.  100% agree with you about the need to "back up" and look at a situation in order to process my own emotions in a healthy and proper way. 

The first two (illegal or immoral/unethical) imo, require laws and codes of ethics determined by sources outside myself.  Thanks for the kindness and helping me sharpen my own defining playbook. 

SoT

[escapingman]

Thanks all for your feedback. I don't the guilt in it self stems from anything particular towards STBX, it's more like a cloud hanging over me. I am not sure it's guilt or if it is something else, but I think it has to do with me still being stuck in this situation. I am back home after a short trip, it didn't take long to get that "help" from her to confirm she is disordered and nothing will change. Was on my way home and got a message from SG that she was being called names and shouted at. Apparently she was late out of school and STBX got stressed why she was late and then ended up shouting at SG for her being stressed about being parked outside school and the traffic and the rest. This morning she shouted and swore at SG again, this time she got some mud on the carpet. I could see the fear in SG's eyes and that is something I can't un see. I read someone else writing in a different part of this forum of how she was scared of her mum when growing up, I need to save my girls from this terror. I can really see how STBX is getting worse and much more unstable the more control she is losing (me not playing her game anymore). My real worry is if I move out and the girls have to spend longer time with her on her own what would happen, especially when she will feel the abandonment being real. I have read a lot about the fear of abandonment in BPD and that fits in 100% of how she behaves. She is also showing very narcissist traits about it all being about her. I truly don't know what she will be capable of doing when finally realising I am filing. I am having a session with the therapist soon, I hope she can help with guidance and not just being interested in us getting back together.

[escapingman]

I started to listen to a book about codepenancy, I have always tried to see me more as an empath and less codependent, don't ask me why but I think it has stopped me from seeing the full picture. The guilt I said I felt the other day, I know now it wasn't guilt but shame. I think alot goes back to my childhood even though I was not growing up with abuse from my parents, but I understand I was emotionally neglected and not really seen. My dad is a people pleaser, he always want to please everybody, except for me. It's to deep to go into here and now but I think I always tried to gain acceptance but never really got it, and instead tried to get if from friends with a couple of really toxic ones back when I was a child. I couldn't see it then, but I can now. I was just giving out open goals to make fun of me in my desperation to be accepted. I started drinking when I was 13, not regularly but occasionally, that made me cool and I finally found a way to be the cool guy. My parents knew, but never told me off. When it comes to girls, I only got any courage to make a move on the ones I liked when having a drink, when sober I always been to scared of getting a no. So instead I have most often settled with anyone that showed me any interest independent what I felt for them. Anyone would do if they have me kind of attitude. This left me as an easy target when I met my uNPDw, she was everything I wanted and needed and she wanted me (or so I thought). Now I of course know it was all mirroring and love bombing.

Whatever happens with my STBX does not matter, all my focus must be on me and to get rid of all this shame. I realise I have had this shame all my life, without knowing it. I need to realise I am allowed to have a life, and to enjoy what I enjoy. It must not have to be validated by anyone else.

I also spoke to the therapist, apparently (not surprisingly) STBX has told her a completely different story. I think I might get her to help me suggesting a trial separation, it might work to get me out more peacefully than if I just leave. But they key for me is to be able to shake off the shame and guilt and move on.

[SonofThunder]

EM,

So glad you are able to understand your past, and how it has shaped your situation.  I have also done much searching and discovery.  I was an ideal target for my uPDw.  But not any longer, therefore the permanent discard. 

I take it as a compliment to be discarded, as it tells me i have stopped being the easy target.  I wish you the best in your decisions going forward and for more self-discovery. 

SoT

[square]

Really interesting insights into yourself. I feel quite sure they will lead to further growth and peace - well worthwhile.

Just a note of caution, I'm not sure if you were hoping stbx would respond well to the therapist suggesting a trial seperation. It might be a good idea to do this, but I worry you hope she'll accept the idea to some degree. Don't let your guard down.

[escapingman]

Square, I am no fool and very well aware of that a separation would be an enormous failure for her and not accepted. But it might make it easier for me with someone else actually promoting it. I am not sure. But all I know is I need to save the kids. I am out if the fog now so she can't get to me, except for through the children. Currently I sm trying to explain and coach them when stbx go off the rails, it's hard, but at least I am there fir them. I am worried how she would damage them if I wasn't there for longer periods. I spoke about this with the therapist but she had no answer yet, she doesn't know enough and not sure she actually knows about PD as much as required. Maybe my best hope is that the supply runs so low for stbx that she gives up and discard me. But I doubt that will happen as I am still providing her with a home, food and money. She doesn't want to go back to work, way to comfortably for her now. But I might be able to withdraw the free flow of money, or demand her to get a job, that could be the tipping point. I don't know. But I am so glad I am Out of the FOG, or at least on my way out of the last fog.

[square]

Of course you're no fool, EM.

I just know what it's like to hope.

[escapingman]

I have been a fool for so long, but not anymore...... thanks for your Kind words square.