greyrock and meddling MIL

[bee well]

I have just greyrocked with MIL for 1/2 and as usual I am left with the bad aftertaste of my inauthenticity.

The inauthentic, vague answers, unfortunately, are the only way to keep the peace with her, and thus minimize the time spent on conversations.

If I am unable to "stomach" it, I will cut the conversation short. Other times I just let it run the course until she tires herself out.

This time she called with inflation on her mind and had to remind me that if one buys half a kilo, instead of two, one eats the same.

She has it in her head that I spend too much money on food because whenever she visits, she sees several containers of dry goods. She can't seem to let go of that idea.

I save by buying in bulk, and nor do I want to be in the supermarket all the time with this virus circulating. She doesn't understand that concept.

There is also her fixation with the utility bill (hers was high so she is convinced ours will be too). Yet last time I told her how low our bill was she said not to make ourselves sick over a little money, to just turn on the heat at certain times (suggested by her).

Naturally I just said yes, it's a shame about inflation, it's necessary to save, yada yada.

This is just a small example of her pushiness, nothing new so I guess this is just a rant. No life or death situation here, It's just the contradictions that never fail to annoy me.

And also the fact that her advice is not sound (I mean, what's wrong with buying in bulk? It's not as if we are going without electricity to buy flour.)

If she keeps it up I will have go medium chill to remind her to mind her own business. (which she will do temporarily, while she plays the victim).

I wonder, those of you who have the pushy MIL, how much of this stuff do you tell your DH?

One one hand, I am tired of giving MIL space in our conversations, but on the other hand, it's his Mother and I think he should know.  Usually he commiserates with me but on occasion he will get annoyed because it is nothing new (when that happens I see it as her causing problems between us, however "small.")

Any thoughts?

[Worthy of Care]

I'm not answering your question, as my experience with MIL is very different. I did want to encourage you that I think that you are doing a good job of the way you respond to your MIL's questions and comments. I'm sure it's hard and frustrating, but yea for you.

[bee well]

Thanks, Worthy of Care, I appreciate it.

[square]

That's definitely frustrating.

My H and I do talk about hus mother and vent when needed. But in the last year or so he seems tired of talking about it. I personally will vent elsewhere, like here, instead of to him unless there is a real problem.

I do consider MIL his responsibility, but as far as I choose to engage with her is up to me and I don't need to burden him with it. I still have stepped away from responsibilities lije arranging visits or gifts. Up to him if he does it or not. If I needed his protection from active harrassment, I'd tell him, but if I choose to speak on the phone with her and it's annoying and he doesn't want to hear it, I'll just deal with that myself.

My take only.

[Cat of the Canals]

My husband and I commiserate often about his MIL, but our situation is different, as I am VLC with her. We do not speak on the phone (nor does he speak with mine). I have her blocked on social media, and though she has periodically attempted to draw me in there anyway, I have ignored the attempts. She is very, VERY invasive, and I know that if I leave any door open even a crack, she will barge in eventually. So all doors to me are shut and locked. 

But I know what you mean about feeling "inauthentic" when using grey rock and MC. It's really frustrating to not be able to just be honest about little things like groceries, ffs! To feel like every little nugget of information needs to be filed into "safe" and "unsafe." But these are people who do not understand or respect boundaries, and it's the only way we have of defending ourselves.

Can I ask how often you speak to her on the phone? Could you start reducing that? If it's once a day, start only answering the calls on odd days. If it's once a week, try pushing it to every other week. You are not obligated to speak to her whenever she demands it (or at all). You are certainly not obligated to listen to her nagging about things that aren't her business. At the very least, I'd enact a "not your business" policy. The first time she harps on something like the groceries, you change the subject. "Ahh that's interesting. Have you been enjoying the weather?" The second time, you end the call. "I've got another call coming in, and I need to take it. We'll talk another time. Bye!"

[bee well]

Hi,

Thanks for the feedback, and the validation.

Square, I like that you distinguish between when and if it's useful to tell DH about the MIL "stuff." When we realize the situation will not change it's not productive to start conversations with DH that take away from the quality of our days (unless there is something that needs to be solved or she pushes too far-- in my case, I need to distinguish between her laundry list b.s. and crossing larger personal boundaries).

Yesterday I told DH and he said lately he is getting tired of her insisting, also with him, on those topics. He has decided to call her out on it next time (his responsibility).

Cat of the Canals, I know what you mean about the barging in through the cracks. You are to be commended for keeping such strong boundaries, while at the same time being there for your DH. That's not an easy balancing act, but I imagine it has been good for your marriage.

Not engaging in social media is key for maintaining space. We don't do that with MIL either. It would be awful to deal with that. The phone calls are enough.

We talk a few times a week. Lately I feel uncomfortable talking with her when DH isn't there (I never no what she will say.) If he talks to her and I don't, the next time she will guilt me.

Thank goodness we don't talk on a daily basis, although she has pointed it out that her Sister and DIL talk everyday.

It's amazing how the MIL files information away, The longer certain topics go on the more likely it is for to spontaneously divulge information that will be used later. Also the longer the rambling is the more likely it is to turn toxic.

The Art of changing the topic, and ending the call when needed help to avoid this, are ones I need to practice more, especially the latter.

I think it comes down to me feeling the discomfort as I enforce my boundaries.

If I don't want to speak I have a right to not speak, and it isn't healthy to reinforce her guilt by offering excuses about why we haven't talked, or validating her waif-y behaviour (I am not ignoring her if we talk less than once a week.)

Another thing that came to mind after I initially posted is that I need to quiet the Inner Critic. Yes, the greyrocking is inauthentic, but we are are protecting ourselves and wouldn't need to do that if it weren't for the MIL dynamic. Beating ones self up about it does nothing to help.

What I take away from this conversation is the wise thing to do is to not focus needlessly on b.s., keep up our boundaries and improve them in the way that's best for us. (There's that Serenity Prayer again...).

Thanks again for your replies. It helps so much to hear opinions and experiences of other people dealing with similar issues.

[bloomie]

bee well - I understand the drip drip drip wearing on us that this kind of implied criticism can bring. It can create a lot of frustration and anxiety and take over way too much space in our lives if we are not careful.

A couple of things came to mind... I don't know anyone, even those who have really good and loving mil/dil relationships, that talk with their mil's several times a week.  Especially with one who is intrusive to the point of inventorying your pantry for potential frivolous bulk purchases. 😳

You make a really good point that the longer or more frequent the conversations - the more words - the more potential for boundaries to be crossed and your mil to get you in a defensive position. Through trial and error I have found that my own mil is most likely to behave offensively over the phone where she doesn't have to actually look someone in the eyes, sit with what she says and does, can stir up chaos, speak offensively, and then stage a dramatic exit. So, it seems like you are starting to consider how much is too much in number and duration of phone calls and that is a wise step.

I would gently challenge this thought:  "greyrocking is inauthentic"

Carefully choosing what we share and with whom, how much warmth or openness we offer, using skilled verbal tactics to navigate conversations with others who may expect or demand more information than we deem appropriate or safe to offer them (such as how much we pay for our utilities, for example) is not insincere from where I sit. It is what healthy people with full autonomy do every single day in all kinds of environments and social settings.

We get to determine what does and does not work for us regarding our private information - and yes, that is even with our mil's. Staying on light and superficial topics is something most of us do every single day with others and we don't label our conversations as insincere, simply boundaried. Learning to sit with our uncomfortable feelings when we do not meet another's expectations for info about our lives is part of this coming Out of the FOG journey, I have found.

You are showing a great deal of kindness and willingness toward your mil and possibly judging yourself way too harshly. It sounds like you are learning to what degree you can, or want to, share about your life with her and making adjustments in response to her choices that don't work for you.

I believe living out our boundaries, and speaking them when necessary, is our best shot at preserving relationships even if the relationship ends up being mainly superficial or in some cases, as others have shared here, have moved to NC. If I had not learned that I cannot engage with my own mil as openly and warmly as I once did, and establish a limited and superficial level of contact with her, I truly believe I would have no relationship with her whatsoever. It would be broken beyond repair. No doubt. She is not safe up close. She is not safe at a distance either, but I have moved the relationship out to a position I can handle (most of the time  ) I imagine that looks differently for each of us here.

You mil sounds like she needs some peers to talk about things like inflation and her kids choices she doesn't approve of. You are not her BFF. You are her dil and as a mil myself I can say I try to never lose sight of the delicacy and vulnerability inherent in that connection and treat it with gentleness and respect. Your mil is out of line from the little snap shot I am seeing here.

The issues behind your discomfort are not small. Things like amount of contact, boundaries, how/when/what to share with difficult entitled elder family members is tough and I am really glad you are here processing and talking it through.

[Hilltop]

Hey Beewell yeah the constant judging over minor issues can play havoc with our self esteem.  It's an intended criticism.  They honestly can't understand that people may do something differently. 

Perhaps if you wanted to mix it up the next time she mentions not buying in bulk I would ask her why.  I would want to know what it is that bugs her.  I mean you don't have to take that personally,  you know you are saving time and money buying in bulk,  so her opinion doesn't matter.  Then you could say to her,  yeah it sounds like you don't like buying in bulk. Then drop it. Acknowledge her opinion without feeling the need to defend your own opinion.

As for the electricity,  if she mentions not putting on your heat and family getting sick I would simply remind her that your kids go to school,  you work,  there are less people home during the day so of course your bill will be cheaper.  I wouldn't let her get away with comments that you are willing to make the family ill to save money.

It sounds like she judges you being frugal. That's her problem. 

I found with DH I had to keep a lot of the thoughts to myself.  It's his mother and at the end of the day he didn't want to hear it.  I vented elsewhere where others got it. 

I think grey rocking with comments about inflation are great.  I feel you can speak up when she is insinuating you don't turn the heat on enough.  I would shut that down,  ongoing criticism is not good for your self esteem.  It's not something you have to tolerate. 

My MIL is pushy as well.  Oppinated as well.  It's really annoying. 

[Cat of the Canals]

I think it comes down to me feeling the discomfort as I enforce my boundaries.

If I don't want to speak I have a right to not speak, and it isn't healthy to reinforce her guilt by offering excuses about why we haven't talked, or validating her waif-y behaviour (I am not ignoring her if we talk less than once a week.)

No, talking less than once a week is certainly NOT ignoring her. I don't even talk to my own PDmother once a week, at this point! I've decided that if she wants me to call more frequently, she's going to need to become a better conversationalist first. Don't see that happening... 

Something that might help in your effort to enforce a boundary like limiting the frequency of her calls: considering that talking to her seems to cause some amount of friction in your marriage. The less you talk to her, the less need to vent to your husband, the less annoyed he gets. Think of it as taking a step to protect your marriage from unnecessary strife.

I would gently challenge this thought:  "greyrocking is inauthentic"

Carefully choosing what we share and with whom, how much warmth or openness we offer, using skilled verbal tactics to navigate conversations with others who may expect or demand more information than we deem appropriate or safe to offer them (such as how much we pay for our utilities, for example) is not insincere from where I sit. It is what healthy people with full autonomy do every single day in all kinds of environments and social settings.

We get to determine what does and does not work for us regarding our private information - and yes, that is even with our mil's. Staying on light and superficial topics is something most of us do every single day with others and we don't label our conversations as insincere, simply boundaried. Learning to sit with our uncomfortable feelings when we do not meet another's expectations for info about our lives is part of this coming Out of the FOG journey, I have found.

I love this, bloomie. I need to print this out and re-read it whenever I feel like grey rock and MC are harsh/mean/etc.

[bee well]

Hi All,

Thanks again for the thoughtful, relevant replies. There is so much helpful information here.

Bloomie, It is exactly that, a "drip, drip, drip", and it is very erosive.

At times I feel like I am over reacting to her comments--it helps to hear that it's not "just me."

One thing that makes it difficult to resist is the fact that in my community, perhaps more than in some places, the stereotypically intrusive mother-in-law is taken as a fact of life. People laugh about it and joke about it all the time, but it's a sad, oppressive cycle that gets repeated over and over.

In any case, as I recently told DH, just because something is culturally acceptable does not make it healthy or right!

I appreciate your reframing of greyrocking. You have correctly pointed out a differentiation issue here, and it's about choosing where, when, and with whom to share my thoughts and feelings. At times the lack of spontaneity with the MIL is just so forced: I don't like it at all, but the reality is that with uPDs, spontaneity does not usually bring good results. Keeping a separate, unique sense of self is necessary in all relationships, and that needs to be a factor in the one I have with MIL as well.

(This involves working on letting go of the vestiges of the fantasy I initially had about having a good, healthy relationship with MIL).

Hilltop, It  is so absurd that she would spend so much time thinking about what I have in my pantry. I have lots of contrasting thoughts about the logic of her ways of doing things, but I accept them.

The not accepting anyone doing things differently is exactly it. She criticizes most everything and everyone. It's automatic and it's part of her essence.

She has already volunteered why she doesn't think it's a good idea to buy in bulk--to avoid spending now, and she thinks the food will go bad. She thinks money should stay in the bank (never mind the math, never mind that I have glass containers and the expiration is 2 years off). The thing is she contradicts herself constantly. She herself is very frugal and has a back up of goods in her home. She does her own canning, etc.

It's just DH and me here, and ILs have a bigger house, so of course their bill is higher. MIL just has a knack for imposing her "logic."

Those two recent examples are so petty but they are just the tip of the iceberg. It could be anything, really.

All of her chatter is just, well, ridiculous b.s. (no way to put it nicely). Most of the time doesn't merit more than an "uh huhn uh huhn," but there are times when it does need to be shut down. The comments are her subjective opinion, and not part of any meaningful exchange, so when she continues to insist after I have responded, that is in my view a form of aggression. She will not change, so it is up to me to keep up the boundaries, and reduce exposure.

(Actually she is better in the phone calls than in person! Fortunately we live far away but I dread the visits. On "her turf" is the worst. DH goes there more than I do--he has a thicker skin that I do,) 

Cat of the Canals,

The frequency of the calls is something that needs attention. If I don't feel like talking to her, it's not good for me to force myself to do it.

I have decided to talk to her when I feel like it. If she doesn't like it, that is her problem.

Maintaining  boundaries with MIL to protect and care for me, DH and our marriage is a healthy way of approaching things (rather that using energy worrying about consequences with MIL).

It's a matter of priorities, and the overarching issue here is definitely accepting the discomfort that must be felt in order to reinforce the boundaries. I've much improved about it in other areas of my life but it's a constant. For some reason I have the most trouble with this in MIL's case. That, I think is due to the fact that I still have an implicit though false, sense of obligation, that needs working out.

Today I am trying to focus on progress rather than thinking about the future and feeling foolish that I am still dealing with this. (There was a time when I would never have ever been here having a conversation like this one.) I'm thankful that the FOG has disappated/is disappating...

[Hilltop]

Beewell she sounds really annoying.

Say the pantry stuff.  Let MIL give her opinion and even ask her why she does this or that.  Give lots of hmmm, if you think so and then continue with what you are doing.  Continue to stock your pantry how you want.

Remind yourself it is her opinion.  Nothing to do with you.  Let her go on for a couple of minutes then change the subject.  Keep it focused on her.  Her ideas.  Don't take it in personally.  Then do your own thing.  Don't change anything for her.  If she believes she does it right great.  Again her opinion. Remember not to JADE. You don't need to  tell your MIL why it's ok for you to stock items just bring it back to her.  She'll love talking about herself and you continue to live how you like. 

If she asks about electricity again just say you don't remember your last bill.  As you say they have a bigger house.  They are at home more often.  If she goes in for a dig I would then shut her down with common sense.

If you find you are talking too much I would cut it down.  That way you won't get as irritated with her.  As you say she is critical of everyone.  This is not personal to you.  If you really get this it will help detach from her. 

It's annoying but she isn't going to change.  My MIL would stick with subjects she saw me react on.  The pantry and the electricity get under your skin.  So your MIL will continue with that.  That's how my MIL is.  If she gets a whiff of anything bothering me she focuses on that.  Really annoying. I ended up doing just this,  leaving the conversation with her and not reacting and it does work. 

[palmtreeparadise]

So sorry you're dealing with this - I do think you're doing a great job setting boundaries and responding calmly. I think it's good for you to bring it up to DH seeing as you haven't brought it up to him before. I've found in the past sometimes it can be a lot for DH to take in because after all it is his mother - especially if he is in the fog it might be difficult for him to hear or understand.

[bee well]

Hi Palmtreeparadise,

Thanks. Sometimes I have more success at it than others,  It's like we have to keep shoring ourselves up, isn't it? Lately I have been working on having fewer phone calls and that helps. Less exposure= less toxicity and more time to recover. I have to remind myself that I don't have to talk about every single thing MIL does to annoy me. When I do that it causes friction and can turn into circular conversations. Not good when that happens. Fortunately, DH knows it's not "just me" as he has been dealing with her for a lifetime. He comes in and Out of the FOG but does a pretty good job of keeping the boundaries up.

[Leonor]

Can dh take her calls instead? Sounds like you are doing the heavy lifting in his relationship with his own mom.

[bee well]

Yeah, that's right Leonor. Most interactions with MIL involve "heavylifiting." We do our best to distribute it. Naturally, it's DH's Mom so it largely falls on his shoulders. As for my part, I can only change me, and not MIL, so I do my best to limit the contact and work on my own attitudes and behaviour...(esp. not trying to please her, or personalize her snark). She manages to get my goat once in a while but it comes with the territory. (Ugh!)