Emotional Neglect?

[Basil Bachelorette]

I've recently gone NC with my uBDP/uHPD sister. We had a big fight via text earlier in the year, which was unwarranted; and was a big shock to me; and just the final straw after so many years of shocking and unnecessary arguments. After that I started doing research and found Out of the FOG.

Anyways, that is my backstory. What I really want to write about right now is this problem of self-doubt that has been plaguing me. My sister maintains that our parents are the problem. This began as early as ten years ago. Then she would often refer to our family as dysfunctional, our parents being the main problem, but she was not specific on how exactly we were dysfunctional.

About five years ago though my brother confided that he also has problems with our parents. This completely surprised me, and I'm ashamed to say I did not receive his perspective with much empathy, at the cost of a valuable opportunity for talking about it. In fact, I don't think we spoke of it again until just last fall, when I was able to put aside my defensiveness.

The thing is, I get along great with my parents. In fact, we bonded over the trauma caused by my sister, after so many incidences of her screaming at us. Additionally, for years I lived only 45 minutes away from my parents, whereas my brother and sister both lived in a city five hours away, so I got much more alone time with them.
My parents are far from perfect. I remember incidences of my Mom yelling at me when I was a kid, and a few times with my Dad as well. They were more classically authoritarian parents: they didn't like me asking why I had to do anything; they expected me to simply obey. But it was never unpredictable; I never felt like I was walking on eggshells around them. There was always a build up to an argument that lasted at least ten minutes. And in my adulthood, they've been amongst my closest friends and confidants.

So, when my brother said he also had some issues with them, I became very defensive, thinking that if I didn't notice any mistreatment, there must be something wrong with me. Of course, he wasn't saying that; I was just being defensive. But it also made me feel hopeless, because now there was no clean-cut angle at which to look at my family. It wasn't just my sister making stuff up, nor her being a victim. 

Now in recent years I have moved far away from the entire family, and I went to therapy as well. I wasn't in therapy for more than a few months, but it was almost exclusively about my sister. On one occasion I explained to my therapist that perhaps my sister acted the way she did because our parents were distant with her. My therapist pushed back on this, saying that perhaps over the years my parents had put up walls against my sister to protect themselves. (To be clear, I had already told my therapist about the several occasions of my sister screaming at us) This was a small, but significant moment, as I had never heard anyone defend my parents before. I had gotten so used to my siblings and my sister-in-law critiquing them. Even though I didn't share their complaints, and was very wary of my sister, her thinking still got to me. After that conversation I began to look at things a bit differently.

The rest of the story takes place over a year of phone calls, months apart at a time. During this time, I was getting along with my sister, and she was comparatively open to critical thinking than she has been in the past.

First, she called me out of the blue to explain that her behavior in the past was caused by her not understanding boundaries, because everyone infringed on her boundaries. At this time, she did not specify who had done this. I was so happy for her to have found such clarity. The next time we spoke I was comfortable telling her that I did not feel the same issues that she did with our parents, though I understood that it was different for her.

Then over time, the story changed: she would talk about how I, by chance, or by gift, had been comparatively impervious to my parents' behavior growing up, that it had badly affected her and my brother, but not me. It almost felt as though she was praising me at times like this, asking me to share my secret. I remember suggesting that perhaps because I was the youngest, I had received the best of their parenting, because they had time to get it right. I always had such conversations with her in hopes that they would bring her clarity and peace.

About a year after the phone call about boundaries, I remember complaining to a friend how depressing it was that every time I spoke to my sister, she just criticized our parents.

Sometime last spring, I told my sister that I didn't like having these conversations, because I got along well with mom and dad, and I worked hard to have that connection with them. I said it in a very matter of fact, non accusatory way. It probably felt insensitive to her though. She did not get angry at me for saying it, but she stopped calling me after that. She did not answer my call on her birthday, a few months later, and every time I spoke to her during the summer, it was only because she happened to be with my brother when I called him. Every time they would complain about and criticize our parents.

On one occasion I asked them to be specific about what the problem was. Next time we spoke, I got the answer: emotional neglect.
They've given me specific examples. My brother told me that one summer our mom had a cancer scare, causing her to behave erratically, explaining some nasty arguments we had with her. The emotional neglect was in not telling us that she had a cancer scare. I couldn't help but wonder though if this was, at the very least, an understandable action by parents who did not want to upset their children over something as of then uncertain.

Another example: my brother told me that on road trips with just the two of them, my dad wouldn't speak for hours at a time. Had they already talked a lot though? Did my dad outright ignore him though, or just not engage with enthusiasm? Am I a bad friend for having these questions?

Another example: my parents claimed that my brother had ADHD, but according to my sister he was just acting out to get their attention. When I spoke to my dad about my brother's childhood though, he said that my brother was rambunctious everywhere he went, with teachers, with other students, not just in the home. Perhaps this doesn't invalidate my sister's claim though?

Another example: My brother used to bonk his head at night to get to sleep. He says that mom and dad didn't take him to see a specialist. I asked my parents about what they did to try to solve the problem. They said they tried everything they could; they told him to stop bonking. Did they ask him what was wrong though? I can't remember if I even asked that. I asked whether they thought about taking him to a specialist. My dad replied that they had taken him to a general child psychiatrist, which I already knew about growing up. I'm not sure what to make of that one.

Anyways, point of my post: I don't know what to think. On the one hand, my dad can be a bit spacey, introverted, and less sensitive. My mother was more prone to have a temper when I was growing up, but she hasn't been like that in years. On the other hand, it could be that my sister's need for attention is bottomless, so no one could ever have given her enough, and now she's just trying to blame her PD on someone else. I don't know if it's my instincts telling me that, or my dislike of her though.
I would be interested to know what others think. Is it possible my parents neglected them, but not me? Or perhaps they neglected me when I was younger too, but made it up only to me when I was older?

Thanks for taking the time to read 😊

[LemonLime]

Hi Basil,
I'm sorry you're in this situation.  It's one thing to deal with a sib that has a story about your parents that doesn't click for you, but quite another when 2 sibs are involved.
You're very good at describing the situation.  Obviously, nobody truly knows the minds of your sibs except them.   But high-conflict personalities don't often offer insight into their behaviors without getting super-defensive, so we are left to speculate.

If you're worried that you are forgetting neglect from your parents, I suppose a therapist could talk with you about that and see if there is something there.
I will, however, offer that my older sib who is high-conflict (?narc), has explicitly stated that "Lemon Lime and Sister-of-Lemon Lime had very different upbringings" with the very clear idea that she had it hard and I had it easy.   She doesn't give specifics, but I do know that my mom was a bit at her wit's end (and very certainly at the end of her parenting skills) with my sister until sister was about 20 (and married!), mostly due to sib's rages and meltdowns which occurred regularly.   Mom and sib were not a good match....mom is very rule-following and proper and worried about "what the neighbors will think" while sib was strong-willed and tended toward negativity.  Dad sat by and did little to make anything better.  I can see how Sib didn't feel "seen".  But even Sib has admitted no abuse happened.

Sib is friends with parents now, and I am in the doghouse for finally putting up a darn boundary and not permitting sib's (lifelong) rages in my presence.  Mom and Dad hate the rages but do not impose a boundary, and they never have (which is likely why sib is how she is).

However, before we went VLC, sib still whipped out the "mom and dad liked you better" trope whenever she wanted to dominate me or control the narrative.   I think she uses it as a weapon against me whenever it suits her, as she knows I'm prone to guilt.   I also believe this:
Sib uses the idea of being "victim" of my parents to cover for her feelings of inadequacy.   After all, Lemon Lime's success in life can be attributed to the fact she was given better parenting than Sib was.   Anything Sib accomplishes in life is extra-special and amazing, given the "terrible" circumstances of her upbringing, and the "clear favoritism" that I benefitted from.  I do believe there is a huge payoff for being Victim for my sib.  Huge.
She's had Victim mentality her whole life, and I suppose in some ways it has served her well or she wouldn't still be using it.

PD's blame others.  It's what they do.   I'm not commenting on your sibs' upbringing because I wasn't there.  It's theirs to own.   But parents do make mistakes and they are human.   Is every mistake "abuse"?   Gosh I hope not, or I am a serious abuser of my children.   I cringe when I think of the times when they were little that I should have handled a situation differently.   I didn't have the skills to do that.  It's not because I'm a bad person or that I didn't love my kids.  I was doing the best I could at the time.   It sounds to me like your parents are human, and that they DID take your brother for help.   I'm not sure what else there was to do, but of course I was not there.  A child psychiatrist IS a specialist, after all.

My sister constantly criticized my mom as long as I can remember.  I didn't see the deep flaws in my  mom that my sister seemed to see.   My sib interpreted my mom's words and actions very differently than I did.  Something my mom said that seemed neutral to me was interpreted as nefarious by my sister.  My Sib saw negativity and ill-will everywhere she went.  And I "sided" with mom and didn't allow my sister to gossip about my mom much.   Which of course felt to my sister like we were ganging up on her, I suppose.  I really didn't know at age 10 how to support my sister in her experience while not throwing my mom under the bus.
It seems to me that a person in their 50's (in my sib's case) should be able to put things in perspective a bit and offer some grace and forgiveness to their parents.   I'm not saying to forgive abuse.

I don't know if this helps but I hope it does in some small way.   Your post really caught my eye in its similarities to my situation.
Hugs!

[Basil Bachelorette]

Hi Lemon Lime,

Thank you for your response; it definitely helps!

I also often think about the personality differences between my parents and my sister. They are more conservative, and low in openness, whereas my sister is very high in openness and more free-spirited. I'm high in openness too, but at some point I came to recognize that even though I don't understand my parents entirely, they're lifestyle suits them, and aspects of it definitely benefited my childhood. I get the feeling though that even if my sister ever conceded as much, she would forget about it in the next conversation. She does praise them-in fact she shows a regular pattern of praising and devaluing people. It's almost like the complaining and blaming is impersonal, like a habit she's stuck in, and that I've inadvertently incentivized. I've spoken with one other PD person who wasn't even aware that he complained about the same person everytime I spoke to him, or so he claimed.  I think you're exactly right when you say it comes down to their own inadequacies.

Even though my sister doesn't try to overtly make me feel guilty about my 'better upbringing', even though she praises my supposed talent in not being affected by them, the end result is that I feel the guilt, and it does limit the responses I can make.

"But parents do make mistakes and they are human.   Is every mistake "abuse"?" -I've asked myself this exact question so many times!  I wonder if you've ever heard of Donald Winnicott, the psychologist who said that parents only need to be good enough? For me, that says it all. Yes, my parents made some bad mistakes, but the point is that I forgave them so easily, I hardly even remember doing it. In the end, I don't feel dread or anxiety on the thought of seeing my parents, whereas with my sister, I do.

" My sib interpreted my mom's words and actions very differently than I did.  Something my mom said that seemed neutral to me was interpreted as nefarious by my sister.  My Sib saw negativity and ill-will everywhere she went."
-This describes both my siblings. Now I'm left to wonder whether such an attitude is innate to my brother, or whether he's picked it up from her. 

I'm sorry to hear that you are in the doghouse   I wonder how you feel about her getting along with your parents. On the one hand, I think I would feel relief, out of guilt, knowing that my sister was not completely abandoned, but on the other hand I would be very scared for my parents' health if they have to put up with her rages. Not to mention, the isolation you must feel.
I haven't yet explained to my parents that I am NC with my sister, nor decided how I will handle next Christmas. But last I talked to my mom, she straight up told me that  she wanted me to be friends with my sister. Even just the decision to not try to be friends with her is unprecedented in my FOO, so I have no idea how they'll react.

Anyways, thank you again for replying. That was my first post (excluding my introduction), and as a first response, yours was very reassuring!

[bloomie]

Basil Bachelorette - hi there and welcome! I'm glad you have reached out and joined the community as you sort through what seems to be significantly different ways of viewing not only the world, but your parents than your siblings.

I try to hold ground for responding to others based upon what I have actually seen and experienced myself and yet, I also leave room to acknowledge that siblings (I have 4) in the same home can have very different treatment based on a lot of factors like, birth order, gender, personality, the health of a parent of the state of the parent's marriage, their assigned 'roles', etc.

It seems clear that your siblings had a tough go in your parent's home. They experienced what they have identified as emotional neglect. You will most likely never be able to sort out the exact reasons and details or understand the context of things like why, for example, it was so painful for your brother to drive for hours with a father who did not engage with him.  But, for him, that and other things brought harm. Whatever was going on with both of your siblings you do see particular behaviors - raging and acting out, head banging to go to sleep, that are outside of children being simply difficult or rambunctious.

It is possible that you have a very different treatment by your parents all of your life and that has to be really confusing. In my own case, my youngest sibling had starkly different parenting than myself and two other sibs. He was nurtured, supported, listened to, heard, generosity was shown him, the expectations for his life and the responses to his efforts were as if he had two different people parenting him than I did. He maintained a dependence and kind of enmeshed closeness with my parents all of their lives and when my parents died very close together his life fell apart.

If the rest of us had shared with him the realities of our experiences, so different from his own that he only caught glimpses of, I don't think he would've ever been able to understand how we could be talking about the same people.

All of this to say, you are right to set a limit on talking about your siblings hurts and harm from your parents if it is causing you such pain. That is what highly trained professionals are for beyond a certain point. Sadly, when family history is so varied like this it does naturally cause the potential for division and confusion.

The most important thing I can think to offer is that staying the course and continuing my own healing work, knowing when to share and with whom, drawing lines where I needed to for my own mental health and peace, maintaining the family relationships as I chose based on my own experiences, has been more than enough to do. I can love and support my siblings - and I do, but there are so many things I choose to work through privately and with a trusted mentor or T.

A simple thing that also really helped me was realizing that each of us view the world differently. Not right or wrong, just differently and that leads to responding differently to even the same experiences. Sometimes, it is as simple as how you view the world versus how your sibling does.

This is a lot to think through and come to terms with. I hope sharing here is a great support and comfort to you in the coming days.

[LemonLime]

One interesting idea that I've been researching lately is the idea that memories change over time.  That is, memories are kind of like a game of "telephone".  Apparently every time we remember an event, we change it slightly.  So it goes back into "storage" altered.   So the next time we remember the event, it's been changed a bit, and we change it again when we re-remember it.   Isn't that so strange?  By the time we have remembered an event many times, it has changed quite a bit.
Not sure how to use this information, but I think it's good for me to know that my memories may have morphed with time.

[LemonLime]

I love "The Good Enough Parent"!  Thank you for reminding me of that.  I have looked at that source for my own parenting, and have taken solace.

I'm lucky that my parents have witnessed the rages and do not pressure me to "make up" with my sister.  I don't know what I would do if they did that!  I'm lucky to have their support.   OTOH, they don't impose any "sanctions" on my sib for what she has done to me.  So my guess is that sib feels they are on "her side".   Oh well......I know that sib is not well.   And I'm grateful to be well and mentally healthy.

[Basil Bachelorette]

Hi bloomie,

Thank you for your detailed and thoughtful response, as well as your feedback on the specific examples I provided!

All of this to say, you are right to set a limit on talking about your siblings hurts and harm from your parents if it is causing you such pain. That is what highly trained professionals are for beyond a certain point. Sadly, when family history is so varied like this it does naturally cause the potential for division and confusion.

This helps a lot! It could be that they were emotionally neglected, but I wasn't. Or it could be that all three of us were, but I came off the least damaged. What matters though is that I'm not ready to discuss it in the same way.

I think what's been really bothering me then is that if I accept my sister's judgment on this, then I must accept her judgment in general, since she expresses her complaints of our parents in the same way that she complains about and analyzes everyone else. When I start thinking like that, it puts me into a spiral. I start thinking that if she is right about this, she might be right when she criticizes other people, or me. If I believe that I am as cold and uncaring as she has said when angry, or simply detached and analytical, as she has said when not angry, then at best, I begin to worry about how I come across to people all the time, and then I lose confidence and overthink a lot. At worst, I start wondering if I'm the one with the PD or I've been tricked by PD parents.

When we were younger, she would often talk about how most people were 'numb' and 'disconnected'. This made me feel alienated from others as long as I was talking to her regularly. So, also, I worry that if I accept her assessement of our parents, I will feel alienated from them.

With my brother, it is different because he does not most often express his feelings in broad intellectual statements of 'fact'. Rather he will mention specific behaviors or actions people took. So it is easier to actually talk to him. I'm not ready to accept the premise of emotional neglect on what I see as her terms.

Not sure where I'm going with this now. If anyone has any similar experiences  or insight on the situation I would love to read more!

[Call Me Cordelia]

Hi. I just want to point out that accepting your sister's assessment does not mean agreeing with it. She has her experience and you have yours. They will never be in perfect alignment, because you and she see the world differently. You aren't talking about objective facts as in a court of law, "Mom said x to me." You're talking about your emotional responses, and one does not have to invalidate the other even when they are different.

It can be difficult to grasp when we have not been raised in an environment where our feelings were accepted, when we are used to needing to justify our emotions or when it's assumed that there is a competition between siblings. You can see even the same event differently and still respect both points of view. Your sister's point of view does not invalidate your own. Even if your brother sees things like your sister does, this does not need to be a case of "two against one." But I agree, there comes a point where talking about it anymore becomes counter-productive. You are adults now with your own lives. Do you really want your relationship with your siblings centered on the past, especially if the past was painful?

[Basil Bachelorette]

Update: Resolution

It seems kind of silly to me that I was worrying about this all those months ago when now, the nuances of it seem so clear. I had a conversation with my brother in which he proffered that it was not good to dwell on negativity towards our parents all the time. I then conceded that sometimes there were things we needed to talk about. It felt like a healthy conversation indicative of mutual empathy and growth. He also mentioned during that call that he was seeing a counsellor.

I could never expect such a conversation with my sister. Yes, she will sometimes say good things about our parents, but it's breadcrumbs compared to everything else. And with her there is never the impression that she has learned to see things in a new light, or that she has healed or let go. After talking with her, I often came away feeling hopeless about interpersonal relationships in general. It always felt like we were having the same conversation over and over again.

So yes, my parents may have been emotionally neglectful towards my siblings and me in ways that I have yet to unpack. Perhaps it accounts for her PD? I firmly believe that it does not excuse her behavior though. My emotional relationship with my parents is very different from the one I had with them as a child, and I have seen first hand how my sister plays on their tendency to self-blame and guilt, as she does with everyone.

Thanks again all for your input!

[bloomie]

Basil - what a centered and steady resolution and conclusions you have come to in this with your parents and siblings. Good update!