Another step Out of the FOG

[escapingman]

It looks like STBX is giving me 2 options, either I drop the divorce and we stay as now, or else she will make my life miserable and take me down. The choice isn't very difficult, she would take me down and make my life miserable anyway after I dropped the divorce. With this in mind, I will push for everything, she will so I have to. I am not going to give her one inch unless she suddenly agree to everything. To get through this I will have to fight using my brain, leave all emotions somewhere else, to be fair I don't really have much emotions around her anymore and I know what she is capable of. She is 10000% a vulnerable/covert NPD, even if she got the house, all the money and full custody, she would still be the victim and I would be made to feel guilty.

I have been watching a bit of Richard Grannon today, I think he is ace. He has come out of 2 relationships from PD's and talks with lot of experience. I watched a video today where he talked about BPD and that BPD really shouldn't be diagnosed as it is to broad. After his explanation I agree with him, I am no psychiatrist but he said the current criteria for BPD is to wide and currently diagnose both people with c-PTSD and Vulnerable Narcissists as BPD. The people with c-PTSD can be cured, the Narcs rarely. A lot of articles I have read about BPD writes about that there are lots of BPD's now being cured, are they maybe more traumatised people that has been misdiagnosed? These kind of articles has been detrimental for me over the years as I always had the hope that STBX can change and all she need to do is realise she has BPD. She won't change. She is a Narc.

She keep telling me she will show me how much she loves me. That's crap. She might love me, for the benefits, the residual benefits. There is nothing else she loves about me, she has shown that with all her hate over the years. She is the person being mean to me, the one being nice is a  mask, she can't keep it up.

I keep watching videos, reading, learning, and for every day I am a little bit more Out of the FOG than the day before.

[SonofThunder]

Keep up the great, steady, forward progress EM!  Thoughts and prayers for clear thinking, confident calm strength and stamina. 

SoT

[escapingman]

I am still amazed about her behaviour. She has engineered rows all evening, in the end I had to put my foot down (for the second time) to GC telling her that her behaviour wasn't good enough. She kept screaming and swearing at me and I told her that's it, I will take her electronics off her. She blocked me in the door, pushed me and then ended up falling into the wall herself. Out of her bedroom comes STBX screaming at me for attacking GC, shouting at me I am a nasty person and then shouting at me about me and my solicitor being the pits of the earth. All I can do is say, thank you STBX, you could not make it more clear I am doing the right thing. However I really feel sorry for GC being caught up in this and taking her side, I know why she screams at me that she hates me, it hurts, but I have to try to stand my ground as a decent parent. SG can see it all, she knows.

[hhaw]

EM:

Your stbx threatened you, then followed through on the threat by directing your GC dd to disrespect you till you reacted, twice, and now they're both willing to say you assaulted GC physically and maybe something worse. Time will tell.  Do you not see how devastating this could be?  Do you not understand where this is heading?  In any case, the stbx is about to wipe that amazement right off your face. 

IMHO the time to discipline your children is when they;re in a safe environment where you'll explain the situation. From what you said,. the girls are pretty normal when stbx isn't around.  That WILL change, but calling GC out for being puppeted by her mother seems like the wrong place, wrong time.  Tell me you recorded the event. Tell me you don't sound unhinged on that tape. 

Please don't expect SG to be your witness on this event.  SG has disrespected you at times at her mother's direction.... likely to avoid her mother's wrath.  You can't blame a child for doing what they need to keep the love of a disordered mother. 

The girls know you'll love them no matter what...... your love is unconditional.  That will never be the case with their mother.

Right now I don't see any relief in site for your children.  Does your attorney have any ideas at all about protecting them from the adult struggle? Are you in recent contact with the domestic violence people?  I think it's likely stbx will be in contact with them very soon.

  You remaining in the family home puts so much more pressure on the kids.  Your nose must be on the PD pebble or you'd see that... right?

Have you found the book The Parallel Process on parenting troubled kids?  Kids are troubled bc the parents are troubled, IME.  The book helps parents learn to do better so they can teach their children to do better.  It's going to help you communicate with your girls.... it's going to help you find your footing and feel less overwhelmed when you're in the thick of this divorce.  I promise. 





She's fixing to wipe that amazement right off your face, IME.



You're going to have to save yourself, IMO.

Remaining in the family home puts terrible strain on the children and on your position and mental health, IME.

I'm not sure why you're still there, but stbx has clearly told you what her strategy is going to be.  I hope you leave before she figures out you're not dropping the divorce.

[guitarman]

Practising Mindfulness guided meditations regularly has saved my soul from self destruction. I was prescribed a course by my GP several years ago at my local hospital. I have been practising ever since.

I learn to relax. I learn and accept things that I cannot change. I learn to remain calm. Staying calm is my super power. It is my strength. I am a solid quiet mountain.

It has helped me to cope during the most extreme times of trauma and abuse coping with my uBPD/NPD sister's self destructive mood swings. I could watch her rage and not get caught up in it with her. I would lock myself in the bathroom to keep myself calmly safe with her raging at me from outside.

Observe, don't absorb.

I follow the Mindfulness teacher Tara Brach online. She gives regular free talks. She has such a calming voice. She tells funny stories. We all need to laugh. It's so important.

www.tarabrach.com

Little by little things will change for you. I expect that you are already noticing the changes and how differently you feel.

Abusers are all about power and control. They don't like it when they realise they are slipping away. The abuse can then become more extreme.

Keep calm. Stay strong. Stay safe. Keep posting.

[escapingman]

Thanks for your replies.

hhaw, I am still here cause I am building myself up for the next step. Like it took me a couple of months to actually file after I had decided. I am kind of running down the clock as peaceful as I can, as you said as soon as she realise I will not back down anything could happen. At the moment I need her to respond to the court if she is accepting the divorce or if she will take me to court. If I move out before then I am pretty sure her decision would be to contest, if I stay she might in her twisted mind think she can get me to change my mind later on and accept it. I need to play the games, but I need to not get involved in the squabbles as I did yesterday. It was a classic bait and switch as STBX was on my side reprimanding GC until she suddenly swapped side and shouted at me. I can see exactly what she did, I will not fall for that again. STBX will be out all day 2 days next week, I will try to get all paperwork sorted then as I will have time to go through everything (currently I don't know where anything is as STBX has that hidden away somewhere in her enormous amount of filed papers).

Regarding the recordings, I have almost everything recorded but for some reason I missed last nights events. But I have a lot of her craziness, I suppose things she says that would sound crazy to others is just normal to me. I have in recordings how she screams and threatens the girls, even attacking them, I have always hoped to not use them to not drag her through the mud. But, if she tries to drag me through the mud I won't hesitate.

I think I am as far Out of the FOG as needed with STBX, but I am still struggling with the triangulation with the kids and her parental alienation. If I can find a way to cope with that I should be fine, but it is so hard when GC is such a puppeteer to STBX. STBX and GC have even started to share clothes and bought the same jumpers. I feel this is so disgusting I have no words for it, but how can I stop that? 

[Free2Bme]

EM,

I can relate so much to your situation, I too lost 20 years to this nonsense. 

I applaud you for taking the trip and making the positive memories with your DD's.  I would encourage you to plan another one very soon (I get how difficult PD's can make this),  This may be the saving grace for your girls, especially the GC. ( It did not go well for my GC, it was a tragic couple of years post-divorce.) 

Meantime, keep reminding DD's of what a great time you all had during your time together (not in front of PDw).  Not in a manipulative/devisive way, but in an effort to ground them to something positive and healthy. Don't disparage their mom, just circle back to the good memories, laughter, etc.

You are doing great, you have support here.

[escapingman]

She is such a victim, I feel disgusted by her victimhood. She want to talk, tell me stories, involve me, and I am so so so so mean that is not letting her. She doesn't pay any attention anyway and keep talking to me, or at me to be precise. All she wants is me, she doesn't want money, just me back. She cries, then storms out in a mood moaning, then ends up singing in the kitchen to come back 5 minutes later to start again. A short while ago she followed me round the house in every room I went and just stood there looking at me. Apparently she has so much on at the moment so she wants me to pause the proceedings to let her get the grips of things. She must think I was born yesterday, oh yes I delay so she can buy time.

But, not once. Not one single time has she asked how I feel and how come I filed for divorce with such accusations of abuse as I did. Not once....

[hhaw]

EM:

It warms my heart and makes me feel hopeful when I read you're connecting with your children. The time you spent away from the PD..... seemed to me a respite from what must be a tightrope of eggshells for your children.  I wonder what they make of the stbx posturing as a victim, trying to tell you her sad stories and have you ignore her. The stbx will tell your girls what to think of it. 

I've asked a few times about your attorney setting up an emergency hearing based on past abuse you documented AND the stbx's refusal to stop discussing and involving the children in the adult conflict. 

Have you spoken to your attorney about that possibility?

I know it's difficult to pull your attention away from the stbx's egregiously harmful behaviors, but it will do you good to manage it,IME.

[escapingman]

For the kids, I am really worried about GC. I need her to break her unhealthy bond with STBX. She has been fed so much crap about me, SG and everyone else around. I can hardly get a word back from her at home, she does anything for STBX but snarls at me. Anything I say, GC takes as a criticism of STBX and she just shout and swear at me. It really has become a dynamic where STBX and GC bully me and SG, STBX has now backed off me as she is trying to get me to change my mind, but GC hasn't and that backfires on her as STBX gets angry with her for continuing "the war" whilst she is trying another manipulation. SG is strong, physically strong so when GC ramps up her bullying she can hurt GC physically, which she does at times. To try to get SG to see that this is not OK, but at the same time tell GC off for her initial bullying, with a screaming PD in the background is not easy. I am exhausted.

STBX was supposed to be out all day today, so I had my plan to get things moving done. But her plans changed and she is now in the house, making it impossible to what I planned. I suppose the paperwork is actually not that important, a valuation of the house can wait, it won't make any difference really if I just guess a number and have an estate agent confirming that later. I just need the last piece of her showing her hand if she will accept or fight the divorce, then I can make my next move which likely will be moving out. 

[Gettintired76]

EM I see so much of my situation in yours, hhaw is actually right the blow up at your GC could be your undoing, I accidentally scratched my daughter's arm with a bracelet I wear while trying to calm her down, and my udBPDex has turned it into years of prolonged abuse, and I has kept my children from me for 2 1/2 months, the courts are just now starting to see how she is and have taking legal custody away from her for our oldest daughter and I foresee them taking physical as well because she has made it clear GC is the court's responsibility now . So yes it was wonderful you had those two days of heaven, it's the same with my kids, but tread lightly and document (you can't forget a single day). I had no choice but to move out (and am honestly glad I did). I suggest you do so as well. I wish nothing but the best for you and your kids EM good luck bro.

[hhaw]

EM:

Right now you have it in your head that moving out would be "taking the gloves off" IMO. 

You're waiting for the PD to "show you her hand" before you make a move, but I want you to reflect on any patterns between you for the last 15 years.

Likely it's the PD doing egregiously harmful things with you reacting, but never holding her accountable or forcing her to deal with consequences of her actions.

I hope you can see that pattern, widen your gaze and see how PRESSING EVERY ADVANTAGE to hold the pd accountable could help you and your children OUT of this situation more quickly and with more protections.

Right now you're still waiting for the PD to set the stage and decide what you'll do next.  It's a position of weakness and doing nothing IME is about backsliding into a ditch....and I understand that too well, bc I've been in many legal ditches.  Usually with attorneys giving me that very advice,bc attorneys yearn to settle EVERYTHING, which means we can't use our evidence in the next case, which is demoralizing and the PDs get trickier once they know we're documenting and it's a downhill slide you'd do well to avoid IF you still can.

Pressing your case, going to trial and avoiding a settlement means your evidence will BE IN THE COURT RECORD for future reference AND you won't lose that evidence forever, bc once you settle....the court won't consider it anymore, IME. Think about that for a minute.  Settling doesn't work for people in abusive situations, IME. 

Peddling uphill in your sitution would mean actively holding the PD accountable for everything you can (at this late point) and not allowing her to get away with anything going forward...nothing. 

It would mean YOU decide what your next move is....hopefully the strongest action you can take through the courts and dv systems and not backing off an inch, ever, for any reason an the kids are going to be pressuring you if you somehow manage to stop the PD's voice and physical presense from doing it herself. 

I'm not gonna lie...... peddling up the hill you're on would take tremendous courage and willpower going against your very nature...... and that would be ferociously uncomfortable for you and WHILE you're struggling and weakened and your children are suffering.  It's really hard...maybe it's impossible. I don't know. Everything in your brain and body will be screaming for relief, but IME the quickest way to true relief is sticking with that discomfort, making a good strong plan to hold the PD accountable at every chance then HOLD her accountable without backing off an inch.  TRIAL COURT is your friend. Do not fear trial court.  Your PD should fear it, but might be too uhinged to understand the harsh light of that courtroom won't work out the way she thinks it will....with her accusing you and you buckling and things going back to the way they were.

In court lies catch up to people.  Producing evidence is compelling and helpful. You'll do better than the PD in court.... don't forget that.

Your plan to wait and see wait and see wait and see is a pattern in your relationship with the PD and maybe your entire life. 
Maybe you can't change it.
Heck, maybe you have no interest in changing it. It's not for me to say.

My wanting it for you.... my seeing you change your very nature is, admittedly, my yearning to change my own very similar nature.  I'm projecting what I want for myself ONTO you.... with all my hindsight and trauma informed therapy sessions.... and I'm still struggling in daily situations.  It's not easy and I want you to remember that..... remember to be very kind to yourself no matter what happens.

You're in the abyss..... a bit blind, flying by the seat of your pants and whatever you do..... remember true panic and biochemical hijacks will ebb and flow.  Best to take action ONLY when you're out of the grip of panic, IME. You'll have moments where the chemicals will actually help you if you can sit with the REALLY bad discomfort long enough and breathe through them,IME. Trust the panic will pass and know you'll be able to think with more clarity soon enough.  Resist acting when you're in deep distress if you can.

I'm reminding you to examine your patterns and understand repeating them will get you more of what you already have.

CHANGING your patterns, which is REALLY uncomfortable, will get you something different....... maybe.  That's not easy to see when you have tunnel vision and your biochemistry is constantly hijacked by the PD keeping you off balance and reacting.

Just know you can do it, you deserve to be protected and you're obligated to protect your children so it's OK to begin making decisions BEFORE the PD shows you her hand.

The stbx will always lie, cheat, steal and knock you off balance, btw.  Learning new footwork, to get out of her reach, could be an option that saves you EVERYTHING... time, resources and more trauma to your children.

Just say'n..... you have more choice than you realize. 

Trial Court is, IME, the quickest way OUT of the abyss and usually the one affording the best protections.

Nuff said.

Good luck

[escapingman]

I watched a seminar about divorcing a narcissist with Richard Grannon, Sam Vaknin and Sara Davison. They are all speaking a bit more direct and put a lot more on the non-PD than most of the other people talking about the subject. The message is pretty much, don't be a victim, sort yourself and kick that Narc out of your life. Quite like hhaw is trying to tell me, things won't change by it self. I am trying to figure out my next move, but if I wait for STBX to show her hand I will still be waiting in a years time. It's becoming obvious to me she is just stalling and delaying and trying to make me change my mind. As hard as it will be, I will need to straighten my back and move out. I will not have any peace until I am out of her space. I understand that.

Thanks for all support, it really helps.

What Sam Vaknin said that really got into me was: Stop being a victim, be a survivor.

[hhaw]

My message is more.......
stop repeating the patterns that got you where you are.

We're all dealing with childhood wounds and doing the best we can. When we know better, we do better.

That's you,EM and me and everyone on this board.

Words like "victim" and "survivor" bring up emotional resonses for me and everyone, likely.   The PD will turn that on you, belittle you..... say you're whining and make you feel ashamed..... and so might many people who hear the word applied to anyone in a first world Country...... best not to use labels, IME.

I'd rather stick to the facts and backing them up with evidence..... with asking the Courts, police and DV services for everything they can provide while leaning into the stbx falling under the weight of their own consequences.....nothing to do with us.   THe nons did their best and the consequences of our actions fall on our heads.  We deal with them every day and that's our burden.  Covering for the PD, giving them more changes and wiggle room and waiting for them to make a move so we're always reacting.....is never a good strategy, IME.  (Yes, the ROYAL we.... roll with it.)

Protecting the PD's, EVEN AN INCH falls again on our heads and brings dire consequences for us and the children crushed under the weight of allowing the toxic PD to call the shots, extend the proceedings and you're right about your stbx extending this out as long as she can.

It's the PD playbook and most people posting support to you has dealt with it.  Learnng from our mistakes is available to you.

Learing the hard way is too.

[escapingman]

What was also repeated in the seminar, which I know and have read and heard before, but is the biggest truth. IT DOES NOT MATTER WHAT DIAGNOSIS STBX MIGHT HAVE, SHE HAS ABUSED ME, SHE STILL IS ABUSING ME AND SHE WILL CONTINUE ABUSING ME AND THAT IS ENOUGH! At the moment it is only a question of time before it blows up, STBX is walking around as a ticking bomb. I was accused of using the silent treatment against her a couple of hours ago, wonder how she knows about the silent treatment  But I certainly didn't use it, I did MC and GR.  Then she went and did a story to GC about her being such a victim and very covertly blamed me. GC bought it and was very short with me afterwards. I did not have any energy or will power to try to correct STBX, it would only have ended up in an argument I could never win anyway.

I think you all are right, I just need out and fight this from afar.

[escapingman]

Ok, today and tonight she gave us a shit show deluxe! All recorded! Will listen to it tomorrow to see if I can use it.

*trigger warning*

To set the scene, during the day girls were in school and me and STBX at home working in different parts of the house.

I am sitting in my office, headphones on (noise cancelling) listening to music at loud volume whilst working. STBX turns up in my office collecting something next to me, suddenly she stands in front of me articulating and waving her arms. I remove my headphones and look at her wondering what's going on. She tells me I don't need to be mean to hear and she is not having any intentions of being mean to me and then she leaves. Whooooosh, the PD interpretation has done it again. I didn't hear her, I didn't look at her, I was working..... But I was mean. Fair enough, I am used to it.

Two hours later, I am still sitting in my office working. She opens the door and tells me to stop being mean to her. I just look her confused as all I have done is worked in my office. She tells me she loves me so much but wonder why I hate her and is mean to her. Again, I was working.....

Later on she has had screaming and swearing sessions with the girls, followed by being nice to them, and then swearing again within minutes. Crying about why we all are so horrible to her when she is so nice to us all.

Finishing it all off by kicking off with SG for asking her why she is eating in bed (she took a biscuit with her to bed), and instead of saying she just wanted to eat a biscuit in bed she went on a rant about how naught she is and she is not allowed biscuits and in the end threw it back into the kitchen. SG obviously went upset telling STBX of course she can have a biscuit in bed but STBX screams she is clearly not allowed and swears at SG. SG asks for an apologise which ends up in STBX grabbing her arm and squeezing it until SG starts crying and runs to me for comfort.

I then cuddled and played with SG until she got back to some kind of state, she made it quite clear what she feels about her mum.

I am knackered but maybe STBX is actually losing it now and I can get her out of the house.

No doubt I am doing the right by divorcing her.

[Poison Ivy]

It is my impression that in general, getting one spouse out of a home before the divorce is finalized is most easily accomplished by one of the spouses leaving the house voluntarily. Your wife's behavior, although extremely aggravating, doesn't seem worse than other things you've described her doing. If you want to ask the court to order your wife to leave the home, this incident seems neither more nor less of a basis for this request than the other things. But the most effective approach to take, as hhaw has said, is to stop waiting for your wife to do or not do things. She has all the power if your actions depend on her reactions.

[escapingman]

I get it Poison Ivy, I really get it . I should leave. But I am scared of leaving the girls behind, especially SG as I have no idea what they would do to her. I know she is fine if I leave for a few days but if I move out, I am not sure.

Will talk to solicitor tomorrow about what to do, tried today but we both missed each others calls.

[square]

What I see from my vantage point:

You're waiting for her to indicate, verbally or via her actions through a lawyer (signed papers, scheduled hearing, or the like), whether she'll accept the divorce or contest it through the court.

But she shows you every single day what she has decided to do.

She has decided to do absolutely nothing about it except continue the only playbook she knows to try to regain your compliance.

That's it. That's her plan.

[escapingman]

What I see from my vantage point:

You're waiting for her to indicate, verbally or via her actions through a lawyer (signed papers, scheduled hearing, or the like), whether she'll accept the divorce or contest it through the court.

But she shows you every single day what she has decided to do.

She has decided to do absolutely nothing about it except continue the only playbook she knows to try to regain your compliance.

That's it. That's her plan.

100% true, that's why I am not waiting any longer. I will run this from now on. I will be in charge, not her.