Another step Out of the FOG

[hhaw]

EM:

It's nice to breathe the free air, but don't let your guard down.

It's better to set expectations for a full trial then proceed accordingly without hope for a settlement.  IME, faffing about with settlement talks is destructive, expensive and leads to demoralizing bouts of crushed hope a trial can be avoided.

Much better to avoid the stbx COMPLETELY, as you're working towards, prepare for trial and mitigate negatives. 

You're not quite to the point of settlement discussions.  When you are....
Ask for any settlement to be hand written at the meeting, filed and stamped THAT day by YOUR attorney with everyone signing the Agreement.... everyone....attorneys included.  You'll be reminded of this many times.

Have your ride or die list of things you MUST have in any settlement.  Make sure they're reasonable and child centered.

Do not give up anything equating to emotional suicide for you.....just draw a line and be prepared to defend it....go back to the children's best interest as often as necessary.

Be prepared to give up everything but your bottom line list.  You DO this to appear rational, reasonable and overtly willing to settle your case outside the courtroom so the court and attorneys understand you aren't the reason the court has to set trial dates and hear your case.

  It's likely your stbx will refuse to settle bc she wants to stay married.  stbx might pretend settle a few times then argue over details of the agreement she'll never sign till you're basically 6 months down the road and out if funds for a trial.  To limit time spent on settlement discussions is imperative and can move your case forward more quickly. 

The number one rule in settlement discussions is to never cancel a hearing or trial date until you have a signed, filed and stamped copy of your Agreement enforceable through the Courts.

[guitarman]

The love bombing and the brief change in behaviour are all done to disconcert you, to gaslight you into doubting your own reality and experiences. It is done to ultimately break you and hoover you back in. You may even begin to think that you were to blame for all the upset but you weren't.

It's a constant complex mind game that you are enduring. Stay calm, resolute and strong. You are building your resilience. You have a plan. Don't deviate from it.

Trust your gut, not your head or your heart as they can lie to you.

You need peace. You don't need chaos and drama. You don't need abuse.

Don't minimise what has happened to you or make excuses for the abusive behaviour. It's so easy to do. I know as I've done it all myself.

If it hurts it isn't love.

We can get used to the brief intermittent periods of positive rewards when everything is calm, peaceful and SO wonderful. We can become addicted to those times as that is when dopamine, the feel good hormone, is released.

The abuser can become like a drug pusher handing out those feel good hormones that we crave. We can get hooked on them. Then the abuser takes them away. We need them back so endure and forgive any abuse to receive them again.

I never knew about this until it was explained to me. It can be why many abused people never leave their abuser. The trauma bond can be so toxic and we don't realise it.

I've witnessed so much extreme abusive behaviour by my uBPD/NPD sister. Other people wouldn't fully understand, if they haven't experienced it all for themselves.

Keep calm. Stay strong. Stay safe. Keep posting.

[escapingman]

The sticking point at the moment is that STBX has not responded to the court if she is accepting my claim it is her fault, or if she is going to defend it and try to have the court throw it out and not allowing me to divorce her. She it trying to get me to agree to certain conditions before she accept the divorce with the claim it's her fault. If she doesn't accept it I will have to prove in the court that my claim is true, which I have no doubt I can, but would still want to avoid it. When she has shown her hand and responded either way we can push through with either the "easy" route or the one through court.

On another positive note, I got a call and the therapy services has a late cancellation and I got to speak to a therapist today. I will see her regularly from next week, I am looking forward to that.

[square]

Though just getting it done is the priority, I'm thinking you don't want to agree to her conditions.

The reason is that you have the total upper hand. You can prove what you need. Or if you choose you can switch to no fault soon. You have nothing whatsoever to gain by chipping away at your position, and it's likely just a tactic anyway where the goalposts will just get moved.

[escapingman]

She is arguing about something really petty, which to me only can be because she wants to buy time and delay. But I agreed to her last request so we will see if she is going to do her bit, if she does it's a big win for me. If she doesn't, it's a big loss for her as I am confident I can convince the court and then the cost will go up which will be paid by her. The actual financial settlement and what happens to the children is not really dependent on this, although it can be affected in my favour if she tries it on with the court and fail. At the moment I am letting the solicitor deal with the strategy, I just want it over and done with and as fast as possible. STBX has been in doing her drama again, it really is making it difficult and I am struggle to work having her in and out like a jojo trying all kinds of tactics to get me involved and to change my mind. Latest thing is she now think we should go on a weekend break as a family, and when I told her it's a bad idea and stuck to thinking it's a bad idea I was called mean and asked why I was so nasty to her.  There is nothing I would love more than believing her and for her promises to actually be true, but I know it's not true and it's all a fantasy. So glad I will start therapy properly next week.

[escapingman]

I am an absolute mental wreck right now, one second she is crying begging me to change my mind, next she is singing in the kitchen, then she comes and start talking about something trivial like all is normal, suddenly back to begging me, declaring how much she loves me, crying, getting angry shouting at the kids and then circling all this back and forth. It's like sitting in the middle of a hurricane, I have no idea what she is up to when I see her from one minute to the other. Now the latest is she want us to have a romantic dinner together, she loves me so much and all I need to know is to accept it and then we will be happy. Not one sorry for her abuse, she has changed she says and she was ill before and now she is better.

The only way I could see us staying together is to first divorce, split our finances, her to seek help and agree she needs help and work on her self and her anger. I know I have a better chance of winning the lottery (without playing) so won't put any hope on that happening. Whilst writing this  she came in, again, saying she lost her way a bit and has not been the best, but I am to blame too. I agree I am to blame for staying in her drama triangle, but I am in no way to blame for taking part in her abuse of me and for not understanding what I was dealing with.

I am not sure how I am supposed to work with her entering my room at any given time demanding attention. How do you explain to someone that the problem right now is that she is being nice? That she want to save the marriage? I would have thought that would be a pretty normal response for a normal person. But I can't see a non PD begging and love bombing for months? At some point would a normal get the point that the marriage is over, wouldn't they? I am not sure what to think anymore, I have been in her world for too long.

[feralcat]

I'm sorry about her stopping you working. You said once you have a bad back, so presumably you can't rent a 'hot desk' somewhere ? Ask a friend if you can work at theirs ?
You'll never be able to see things from her point of view, EM. Any more than it looks like she can see yours . Or a cat can empathise with a mouse. She sounds totally chaotic and erratic. Even reading what you write is jaw dropping( ps you write very well).

You ARE getting there. Look at how far you've come since you first joined this group.
Good luck with the counsellor next week.

[escapingman]

Thanks feralcat.

She says she actually accepted the divorce with the court today, if that's true that hurdle is gone and I don't need to fight her in court for the actual divorce. She has cried and begged and declared her love for me today, I am a mental wreck, totally exhausted. She has fought and screamed at the kids, they have screamed at her, she has cried, they have complained about her crying. I don't have the energy to involve myself to much in her childish fights with the kids, other than trying to be there for them. Especially GC is in terrible state with STBX at the moment, she is fighting back 100% and calling her out on her manipulations and passive aggressive tricks. I think she is starting to see, at least I hope she is. They are all out now and she is taking the kids to an activity, I dread to think what's going on, but I am enjoying the peace and calming down myself.

With this first hurdle gone (I will wait for confirmation from my solicitor before celebrating it) it's time to start thinking about moving out. I am not sure if I am mentally strong to see her crying like a wounded animal for much longer. I hate it. But, when she has told me today I am mean to her and is ruining her life I have started to push back telling her it was her own doing. I have no interest in getting into any discussion with her about it but I am starting to get angry. Maybe I need that anger to pull me through the next phase? 

I did manage to work a bit today, but it's hard to prepare meetings, concentrate and then run teams meeting with her in the house turning up in my room at any time. It would be ideal to work away, but unfortunately my back is in a bad state so need a proper workstation, cafés and hot desks only work for so long. 

One year ago I came home from the first time I left her, I cannot believe how far I have got since then.

[JustKeepTrying]

EM

You should be proud of how far you have come - this isn't easy and don't believe anyone who tells you otherwise.

My ex did that please please stay love bombing between the filing of the papers and the final decree.  He tried so hard to win me back that I waffled everytime.  In the end to get him to stop I told "Here is my offer, and it is a sincere offer, the divorce goes through, money split, you work on your issues and two years we get back together but not married.  Never married again but if you love me and want to be with me, this is the only way."  He told me it was ridiculous and why not stay married - I told him he had hidden money from me (lots) and gas lit me for decades that we had none.  I wouldn't live that way anymore.  He shut up and never asked again.  The love bombing stopped.  Whether he still sought help - i have no idea because he has never once suggested we try again.  In fact I found out he started dating two months after the divorce was finalized.

I hope you get confirmation soon and can move to more peaceful life soon.

[guitarman]

You've done so well. Congratulate yourself for all that you have achieved.

You'll feel so much better when you move out.

Keep calm. Stay strong. Stay safe. Keep posting.

[escapingman]

Thanks for all your encouraging messages.

This morning her mask slipped, the kids started fighting (again) and she always involves herself with shouting at them. The kids always try to get each other into trouble, and they love when STBX tells the other one off. I stay away from them when this happens as it always ends up being me  in trouble. Today it escalated and STBX came in screaming at me for being lazy etc for staying away. Got to try to calm the situation, as expected it didn't help and then STBX started screaming at me in front of the kids and then told me in front of them I can have custody and she doesn't want them. After this GC started screaming at me as well, she always think it is fair game to scream and swear at me as soon as STBX has done so. I am trying really hard to do low contact in the house and to stay away from STBX and these situations. However, I feel good that I didn't raise my voice, I told both girls off for being mean to each other and tried to calm them down, with a screaming PD in the background.  I really can't wait to have my own place, preferable with custody of the kids.

Do I have to add that STBX behaved like nothing had happened as soon as I came back from driving SG to school?

[hhaw]

I'm sorry, EM but I don't know what "telling off" means.

When you tell your children not to fight or not to scream at you or tell them off... what does that actually look like?

And.... did you record the stbx screaminng at you and telling you she wants you to have full custody of the girls?

Of STBX screaming at you then gc joining her in screaming at you?

I think your children are in crisis...... stbx will continue slipping more deeply into chaotic behaviors, IME.  You're struggling to share space with the stbx.  Are there any updates from your attorney regarding protection for the children or timeline for your moving out?

I know yu continue to hope stbx agrees to the divorce, but I don't think she will.  All the small things she brinngs up will continue, then turn to medium thing then back to small and large and everything in between....like dangling a carrot in front of you..... requiring you DO things in order for her to make more promises or SAY she'll settle then she'll yank the football out, like Charlie Brown and Lucy, IME.

And I do hope I'm wrong this time, but I believe a trial is your least painful, quickest way out.

Don't fear trial.  Press every advantage at every moment........ don't give the stbx an inch until she's signed off on Court documents and your attorney files them.

[escapingman]

Sorry hhaw, maybe it's a wording I picked up by STBX as she has many weird wordings. With telling off I mean telling the girls they should not fight, they should not swear and that they should be nice to each other. When STBX is "telling them off" she is threatening them with that she is going to lose her temper, swearing at them, calling them mean and screaming.

Yes I got it all on a voice recording, all from how it started to the end.

I absolutely agree the children are in crisis, but I am close now, and the more STBX is letting her mask slip the less they want to be with her.

According to STBX she actually agreed to the divorce and accepted the petition from the court. I am just waiting for confirmation, her solicitor had also said she agreed so if she lied and didn't do it her solicitor would probably be annoyed with her. If she has agreed to it, there is "only" the finances and custody to agree. Finances have started, I am not sure how long time that takes to sort out. Custody, if she keep behaving like she does I will go for full custody and play my tapes for whoever needs to hear them.

I am a bit exhausted right now, both from her dramas but working through this as well. But I have sat in meetings all day and avoided her which has been like a rest (at least mentally).

As they say on the planes, take the oxygen mask first and then help the children. I do my best with the kids, but unless I can breath I am of no use for them.

[hhaw]

You're doing great, EM.

Just don't fall for the settlement talk trick, bc  I'm not gonna lie.......
It will knock your sanity out if your body for a day or two.  Maybe three but expect a trial while talking hopefully about it a settlement and remember to ask politely for a hand written Agreement AT any conference to be signed buy all parties and walked to the file clerk's office by your attorney.

Remember not to cancel ANYTHING in court based on a PD promise.  Ever.

[Poison Ivy]

EM, I just saw a blog post that you might find helpful. It is on the website of divorce coach Karen Covy (karencovy.com). If you click on the blog link, you'll see the post, titled Co-Parenting with a Narcissist v. Parallel Parenting: Which is Better?

[Audacity]

Hi  EM
I am hearing you. I am almost done with financial separation part. Just need her to sign. I am feeling like you. My head is not able to explode though as it just can't get that someone can do what she has done, is doing.
Just hang in. I now know I am not alone and not crazy. Thank you.
I have a therapist and he listens. Was going to work on building me back up but switched to listen and support and sane checking. He is a great listener and then a subtle pointer of direction.
All I can offer is remember it is nothing you can fix but something you can manage. If anyone can manage the situation you are in it would have to be you. You have been doing it for a long time and would be acutely aware of what you need to do to get to where you want to. But it helps having a sounding board.

[hhaw]

EM:

Think about how your stbx might destroy your ability to run your company.....who she might smear you to or documents she might alter or accounts she might empty or whatever you can imagine.....double it then expect worse, IME.

I already understand the stbx depends on the family business income which make irrational destructive behaviors impossible to understand until you remember.....some PDs employ a scorched earth policy.....even if destroying you means destruction of themselves and shared children.

Be as proactive as you can be with this and all aspects of your life. 

You're already the parent participating with other parents.....keep that up and make sure those parents have a true idea what's going on....for your childrens'sake and your sake, alike.  So the stbx can't claim you're an abusive monster and turn them into flying monkeys willing to testify against you.

[escapingman]

Thanks for all your support, it really helps to have you all here.

hhaw, it's not like she is actually destroying my work but she is wearing me down. I am pulling myself up to get through meetings etc, but I really struggle to motivate myself to actually get things done. I am completely worn down, and my best chance of rest is during the day when I am supposed to work. I have gone from being able to work upwards 200 hours a month to just about push myself to do 50 hours, I don't want to get back to working that much again but it would be nice to be able to if needed. As soon as the workday finish I do all I can to hide, pretending to work, but all I do is staring at the screen. All to avoid her and to keep as low contact as possible. I am really putting all my energy into just surviving at the moment, I am so pleased I laid the groundwork for the divorce as I have no idea how I could have found energy to start the process now. I really hope I can get the go ahead to move out soon, I think it is close but not close enough. At least it helps to be Out of the FOG, although that makes it harder in some aspects as there is no relief as I know all niceness is a mask.

[Penny Lane]

This is at more than five pages, so per site guidelines I'm locking it.

Good discussion, feel free to start another thread to keep it going!