The honor thing rolling around in my head again

[Lilyloo]

For years I haven't been able to get past it.  It pops up now and then.  I decided and I may be wrong about this, but I have honored my N mom, because I have never gone off on her after she has been so mean to me and all my life said nasty, hateful things to me. Shes done some real damage to me. She has to my brothers also, but they fail to see it. One of my brothers was all about the honor thing. He became an alcoholic and had 3 strokes. She really treats him as a child and controls, but he has to honor.  I think I did talk back to her one time as a teenager.  I could write a book on all the times her words hurt me and cut through me like a knife.  I always came home and cried or got angry but never once confronted with the same mean type of things, but I surely could have.  I think the honor thing was always in my head. So, I have told myself that, yes, I did surely honor by not being the mean daughter like she is as a mom. Does it make any sense.  I pray God forgives me for not being able now to be around her much. I spent age 13 to about 55 doing whatever  she wanted. I no longer can or ever will again. She drained me, to the point I am still scared of her words.  All through the hurts or sadness I had in my life she always had sarcastic comments, like telling me to "grow up" or ridiculing things I loved and her jealousy was quite apparent. So God, i hope you see that I surely did honor, by doing and by mostly never telling her what I really felt.  I convinced myself of this, hope I'm not wrong.  I hope God understands

[moglow]

LindaLoo I'm in that space with you, had a conversation with a woman I admire on that very subject last week. I'm trying to wrap my brain around the concept of honor and knowing it's not [and will likely never be] the same as mother's, but feeling I'm still falling short.
For me, honor is treating her as I'd like and want to treat all others, not just her: not being disrespectful, not deliberately setting out to cause harm, not intentionally creating distress or pain, not leaving her/others without necessities when I can legitimately help. I'm rethinking not only how I speak to [since that's now off the table] but OF her, and I know I've failed miserably there. I know I'm walking a very fine line between truth and flat out slander at times, and I need to work on that.

In mother's thinking "honor" means what she/the parent thinks/says/does is always right and requires no apology; I'm honoring her only when I'm in lockstep with her thinking and rolling over to be her doormat. I honestly don't think that's what was intended by "honor" and hope someone can shed more light on it.

[SonofThunder]

LindaLoo,

Im so sorry that you, moglow and many others here at Out of the FOG have such difficulties with your mothers and also with husbands here at Out of the FOG whose PD wives are such difficult mothers to their children.   

I personally believe that God has reserved the blessing of an adult daughter or son's 'honor', for parents who are deserving of the respect and attention that 'honor' delivers, and in addition, regarding non-adult children, deserving of their children's obedience (honor).

I also believe the opposite is true. I do not believe that emotionally and physically abusive parents are deserving of the 'honor' of respect and attention from their adult children, nor the obedience from non-adult children trapped in that abusive home environment. 

Back to mothers... I heard a preacher I respect say (I'm paraphrasing):  "God always focused on the mother when he desired a certain man".  God's plan, when utilizing a certain man, was designed using the wonderful, 'honoring' traits of a Godly mother.   

For a few examples: when God desired the man/men....

Moses: God first selected his mother Jochebed, who deserved Moses 'honor'.

Jacob:  God first selected his mother Rebecca, who deserved Jacob's 'honor'.

Joseph & Benjamin:  God first selected their mother Rachel who deserved their 'honor'.

Samuel: God first selected his mother Hannah, who deserved Samuel's 'honor'.

David:  God first selected his great-grandmother Ruth, who deserved David's 'honor'.

Timothy:  God first selected his mother and grandmother, Eunice & Lois, and they deserved Timothy's 'honor'.

Jesus:  God first selected his mother Mary, whom Jesus clearly 'honors'. 

I believe the mother's role in the development of her children into healthy and productive adults in society is SO VERY important.  Therefore again, i believe 'honor' is God's EARNED gift to a mother who fits God's design for a mother.  I also believe the opposite is true. 

SoT

[moglow]

Soooooo... you're saying it's earned, like trust is earned? It's not a given with those birth certificates? Oh my.

[Andeza]

I think SoT may be on to something there. Sadly in our culture (especially Southern USA as I'm sure Moglow is familiar with) honor = obey. Even for adult children. I am, to my knowledge, the only adult of my generation (amongst a group of cousins all within 15 years of each other) that has separated themselves from an abusive parent, even though my uBPDm is not the only one of her brothers and sister to be dysfunctional.

Since I left the FOG, I re-examined the idea of honor and together with DH we decided that "honor" is not a free pass for them to treat us however they want and we just "suck it up because they're family."

[moglow]

LindaLoo, I'm curious - do you find it hard to honor yourself? Can you at all, or is that something that only somehow applies to her?

[Lilyloo]

I don't think I honor myself.  I talk down to myself.

[Lilyloo]

Thank you everyone,  I agree with each of you.  The honor thing is so complicated.  Doesn't the Bible say "fathers don't anger your children"    same for moms I guess.  Mom preaches alot, but her words don't match her actions, so I've found it very hard to take her God talk seriously.  Thank you again.  I need any thoughts on this topic..  I appreciate each one. 

[SonofThunder]

Soooooo... you're saying it's earned, like trust is earned? It's not a given with those birth certificates? Oh my.

That is 100% what I am saying, and is my opinion based on personal conviction and my own scriptural understanding.  I do not believe God's command to 'honor' parents is a blind honor, based on a birth certificate, but rather a command to not 'dishonor' parents who deserve to be honored.  I believe God is referencing the actions/decisions of the child, with good parenting in mind in the command.

I do not believe that abusive parents require honoring (deserving respect and attention) by that command. 

If a parent was to truly repent and seek reconciliation from a child, then possibly forgiveness is in play in that situation and a possible restoration of some relationship with some possible 'honor' going forward, providing the repentance was truthful.  Again all my own personal opinion. 

I believe the examples of some Biblical mothers I listed, are examples of mothers that God has in mind, when commanding children to honor/not dishonor honorable mothers.  I believe the same holds true for fathers. 

SoT

[Danden]

Since, as you say, you are interested in any and all thoughts on this topic,  I will add mine.  I was born in a country where the social culture was very conservative, a country where divorce was not legally allowed until 1973.  My mother came from an abusive family herself and always sought the approval and love of her abusive father.  For example, he threatened to set her on fire when she was 13 and she jumped out a window to escape him, and broke her leg.  After medical complications, this leg was disfigured for the rest of her life.  Yet she always sought to please him and gain his favor, even after moving across the world to the USA with her family.  She never detached from him emotionally. 

As a child I didn't understand her emotional abuse of me, but as an adult, eventually I came to grasp this reality.  She expected me to behave with her as she had behaved with her father.  In the old country, children feared their parents (especially one as her father had been) and did as they were expected to do, to "honor" their parents.  It meant that the father had a kind of right over the life of the child, the right to do as they wished with the child.  If the parent said you would go to work in the fields, or would marry a person of their choosing, or would immigrate somewhere else to work and send money home, that is what the child would do.  Children were not expected to have minds of their own or desires of their own.  That was a cultural expectation that fits in very nicely with the psychological makeup of an abuser who wants to control and dictate to others.     

I didn't do for her the things that she expected of me.  I didn't let her make life decisions for me, because I grew up in a different place, the USA, and I was affected by that environment.  My life has gone very well, but yet she ridiculed me because she resents my success and also because she cannot take credit for it.  I tried to "honor" her by keeping her in my life.  I wanted to have a relationship with her, even if it was a negative relationship.  I tried to manage the situation keeping my distance from her.  Yet it seems that the more I kept my distance, the angrier she would get because I was not being a "good enough" daughter to her.  The essential truth I have learned is that she just doesn't accept me for who I am.  She wants me to be the person that she would have me be.  But I am not that person, I am who I am. 

I think, like you, I did honor her by keeping  her in my life, and by not telling her what I really think.  I never accused her of badmouthing me to people, or of undermining my relationships with my husband and children , with my father and sister, or of putting down my accomplishments and putting me down, even though she did those things.  I have been told by some family members that it is wrong, in God's eyes,  to cut my mother out of my life.  My response is that God does not want us to be abused by others.  God wants us to be the best person we can be, for ourselves, our husband, children, friends,  and those closest to us, and to serve Him.  Each person must be at peace with herself in order to serve God.   The Bible says you cannot serve God and mammon, meaning you cannot serve God and money.  I think it is also true you cannot serve God and an abuser.  In both cases you are emotionally tied up in something that will ultimately not bring you peace, and you have to let the other thing go in order to serve God.   If you have not hurt your mother, and you are ready to do for her if she needs it, even if from a distance, then I think you have honored her.                 

[moglow]

Quote from: moglow on Yesterday at 05:09:54 PM<blockquote>

Soooooo... you're saying it's earned, like trust is earned? It's not a given with those birth certificates? Oh my.</blockquote>

That is 100% what I am saying, and is my opinion based on personal conviction and my own scriptural understanding.  I do not believe God's command to 'honor' parents is a blind honor, based on a birth certificate, but rather a command to not 'dishonor' parents who deserve to be honored.  I believe God is referencing the actions/decisions of the child, with good parenting in mind in the command.

I do not believe that abusive parents require honoring (deserving respect and attention) by that command. 

I get where you're going - Neither does this condone DIShonor on my part, but rather justifies my absence. I suspect md wouldn't appreciate your definition of honor any more than mine. C'est la vie.

My response is that God does not want us to be abused by others.  God wants us to be the best person we can be, for ourselves, our husband, children, friends,  and those closest to us, and to serve Him.  Each person must be at peace with herself in order to serve God.   The Bible says you cannot serve God and mammon, meaning you cannot serve God and money.  I think it is also true you cannot serve God and an abuser.  In both cases you are emotionally tied up in something that will ultimately not bring you peace, and you have to let the other thing go in order to serve God.   If you have not hurt your mother, and you are ready to do for her if she needs it, even if from a distance, then I think you have honored her.     

The Doubting Thomas inside me needed this today and you phrased it perfectly. Thank you.

[Jolie40]

I pray God forgives me for not being able now to be around her much.

once spoke with a priest about PD parent/enabler

do you know what he said?
he said "stay away from them"

at that point in time, I was unable to stop seeing them
It took years and years before going NC

[Lilyloo]

jollie40, Thank you!  I like what the Priest told you!  I think I am looking for someone to say just what he said.   

[Lilyloo]

Danden,  Thank you!  I did for my mother since age 13. I am tired. I had 3 brothers, one is deceased for 4 years. Not one of them ever drove her to any appointment, etc. I drove her to surgeries, regular doctor appointments, to visit people, on and on. I am now 17 months from age 70. I have no strength mentally or physically do do it.  I had no help.  I hope that was honoring, and I hope God sees I am tired now. I talk to God all the time. I hope he understands

[moglow]

LindaLoo I'm having a really hard day with all of it myself, and had a rare conversation with my older brother about my idea of honor and "shoulds." Synopsis: He looks at what we've been through much as if we were battered wives. Yes we stayed [and went back] when there were other choices, and we're paying for them. Our ideas of honor overlooked one simple human: ourselves. Literally in our repeated attempts to honor her/them, we dishonored ourselves. Charity starts at home, as he put it, refocus that honor where it belongs and start from here. Why didn't I think of that?!

Just my $.06 from the edge today. Peace, my friend.

[Lilyloo]

Thank you so much moglow   Your brother is very wise.  We have been battered.   We did not get the mother love we deserved. We kept going back in hopes of getting that love.  We did not honor ourselves  in going back, just like battered wives. It makes so much sense!  I know God loves us and he does not want us sad. I've read that  God does not want us around toxic people.  I fear my mom, not physically but fear of the words she may say next.  God certainly does not want that.  We should honor ourselves.  It is hard when we were conditioned to think we don't matter.  I wish my brothers would be as wise as yours.  One says he just ignores her, the other is under her control.  You are always so helpful and a great friend. Thank you again!

[sunshine702]

I spoke to a Christian Therapist about this as well as it was weighing on my heart.  The stories of their crazy makimg encounters.

He was the first one to suggest very low contact.  Do your duty he said.  That is honor.  I meet with them for a lunch or some activity of they come out but I do not go above and beyond anymore trying for acceptance. 

God want healthy relationship.  Like a tree bearing fruit.  I pray on it.  Tell God that i want to be accepted but that just isn't happening.

[Lilyloo]

Sunshine702, Thank you.  Like you I'm keeping low contact.  I get anxious but I try to fight thru it. I agree that God wants us to have good relationships. God doesn't want us to be sad. I appreciate your reply. HUGS

[1footouttadefog]

Quote from a dictionary:
As a verb honor is to think of highly, to respect highly; to show respect for; to recognise the importance or spiritual value of.

End quote.

You can respect a person without obeying then.  You can know their value and importance without letting them derail your responsibilities, obligations or goals.

[Mary]

I spoke to a Christian Therapist about this as well as it was weighing on my heart.  The stories of their crazy makimg encounters.

He was the first one to suggest very low contact.  Do your duty he said.  That is honor. 

It is my understanding that honoring our parents means taking care of them when they get old and can't feed/bathe themselves anymore. I get this from Mark 7:11 where the Pharisees came up with a rule that let them out of this obligation. Jesus  disregarded the rule and defined for us what it means to honor our parents. It is not about obeying them or seeking their approval.

Mary