Why suddenly I'm the deranged person who needs to apologize?

[FugitiveDaughter]

Ok, I don't think I can explain this to anyone who hasn't got experience with people with NPD. What do you do when your NPD sibling harbours sympathies for things you simply cannot accept and they turn the conversation into you being the deranged one who has insulted them and needs to apologize? And when your mother kinda sides with that person distorting your emotions and reactions into something they're not?

I guess I should add a  **** TRIGGER WARNING***** here!

Here's the whole story. I hope you guys find it funny in some crazy way how this turned upside down again...
I've been worried about my sibling's mental health for a while now. In addition to clear signs of covert NPD, there's been paranoia with a certain pandemic which went from being worried into aggressively resisting all precautionary measures, turning into a full-time activist and then into sympathising with the leader of a country starting a war. Yeah, it gets crazier by the minute.

I have taken the news on the whole war in this country pretty hard, mainly because I have friends and colleagues there under attack and so does my husband. My sibling who usually is quick to jump to virtue signalling whenever there's the opportunity has been quiet the entire time. No posts online, nothing. When I make the mistake of checking out if they're talking about it elsewhere online, I find that their spouse is spouting all kinds of stuff there about the country being attacked being evil, all kinds of propaganda and conspiracy theories basically justifying the war against them and my sibling agreeing.

We have taken to messaging in a group over the phone with my mom and this sibling sometimes. I post an article that is in my opinion very much unemotional but to the point about the whole situation and what should be done. My sibling responds, hours later, by posting a link to a documentary that is considered highly controversial because the director's sympathies being on the side of a person who could be called a dictator and because the documentary is claiming things that cannot be verified. So I tell my sibling that the director is known for his sympathies and the film has been criticised as a propaganda piece. I also say it's being shared online as part of the whole firehose of falsehood propaganda technique that some dumb people are easily dragged into (ok, not my proudest moment but I gave my sibling a way out in that I was not accusing them of being stupid).

The response? My sibling says they were just about to say this too includes propaganda (as if they were ever going to post anything other than material from the "one being attacked is to blame" side of things) and that a dumb person is the one who doesn't find out about things from the both sides. Sibling then asks me if I have "some kind of problems".    I say I don't and that I'm not really interested in watching the video because I'm not interested in finding a justification for something that doesn't have justification. Sibling asks me why am I attacking them since they are the very last person ever to support wars (this has to do with the crafted self image of the saviour and a peace-loving empath).

At this point I get a call from my mom. She seems tickled pink about the whole thing and can hardly suppress her laughter as she asks me if I'm really angry, even outraged now. You might get the impression here that she might have been laughing at my sibling's answers since she knows my sibling is harbouring strange ideas but no, this is a common thing that has happened before, reacting to my opinions with the "maybe you should calm down you hysterical woman" when I've been completely normal the entire time. I find this strange since I've been calm and tried to answer everything in a neutral way to remain detached from it and avoid getting personal. I tell her no I'm not, just surprised at the replies I'm getting when I only wanted to point out that the video is sort of shady and hope my sibling knows that. She says she does not want her children to argue and writes to the conversation that we can all talk about things without getting personal. Sounds balanced doesn't it? Well, it's also meant as a barb towards me, the scapegoat. I write that I was not getting personal by asking anyone whether they were having some kind of problems or accusing them of attacking me (yeah, I tend to forget I'm not conversing with normal people and they won't get the critique).

I am too tired to say anything or write anything more to the online chat so I go to bed. In the middle of the night I see that my sibling has answered. They "only asked" if I was having some kind of problems because they are "so worried about you" but that they do not like to be called dumb!  Uhh... weren't they just admitting believing into conspiracies and calling themselves dumb? They could've just said that yeah some people are dumb but luckily I see that for what it is and do not believe it. And the worry part, sort of condescending isn't it? I know for a fact the person only cares about themselves which is evident in their behaviour. Was this projection? Are they worried about themselves somewhere deep inside?

Here's what I'm asking: Should I answer anything back?  Or should I just leave it? My mom keeps posting hearts and doves of peace into the conversation and I am hundred percent sure in a couple of hours I will receive a private msg from mom prompting me to apologize to my sibling as they "only mean well" and I "get so agitated so easily"...  Does all this sound crazy to you? While I wrote this all, I started to think maybe I'm the evil one here and shouldn't have said anything to begin with. But reading their conversation all I wanted to do was to say "Objection, Your Honor: Projection!" What is this crazy drama about?! I feel my life is too short for it.

[Hilltop]

I suppose people can have their opinions and you simply aren't going to agree with your sister on this one.  That's ok.  I would leave the chat and if asked anything further by your mom or sister I would simply respond with "We disagree about this issue and that's ok.  There isn't anything more to talk about".  No emotion, just reply matter of fact. If pushed I would respond with "There isn't anything more to talk about".  I would not get into any further conversations with your sister about it nor would I respond to any posts or articles she sends. 

Yep they love the drama and as the scapegoat they will throw this back onto you, even if you haven't done anything wrong.  If your mom wants you to apologise I would simply shut it down, unless there is something you said which you feel needs apologising for, however if there's not then there is no need to apologise.  There's some helpful info in the toolbox about medium chill and grey rock, it helped me a ton.  Keep calm, stay neutral, show no emotion.  If your mom brings up your sister again perhaps even consider telling her that it's between you and your sister and you don't want to talk about it.

The conversation you had was fine, however now that you have established that this is a sensitive subject, it's probably best to steer clear of this topic of conversation with your sister.  At the end of the day you can both still have your opinion, that really isn't the problem here. The problem is that your mom is inserting herself into something that is none of her business.  Saying that you get "agitated so easily" is dismissive of your opinion and your feelings.  It shuts you down and yes ends up making you feel crazy when the problem suddenly becomes all you and the other person 'only means well'.  Why is it that your sister is viewed as meaning well but you aren't?  Why is she given a pass with 'meaning well' and you aren't. The message underneath that is pretty harsh.

It takes time to start seeing the unhealthy dynamics but I can't see how you will gain anything from continuing to discuss this with them.  So I would leave it.  From what you have written I get the feeling they will push the issue considering they got such a big reaction from you.  For some reason Pd's love reactions which is why I would suggest not giving them one.

[LemonLime]

Fugitive, I so agree with Hilltop.  Great advice, IMHO.  I personally don't participate in group chats with my family at all.  It wouldn't work, what with my uPD sibling, who virtue-signals with the best of them.   She is (ironically) "the most peace-loving person" according to her, and often complains about peoples' "violent actions and words" and has accused my very sweet hubby of "baiting" her, etc.   She loves to tell everyone how committed she is to Non-Violent Communication (oh and she has a psychology degree!) but then feels free to rip me to shreds with her screeching condescending name-calling and contemptuous eye-rolling and sarcasm.  Weird, eh?
My parents "get it" sort of but still they will encourage us to "work it out" which means that they don't truly get it.  Work WHAT out?  Mom wants us to go to therapy together.  And what would I work on?   Tolerating sib's abuse?   There are no "two sides" to this issue.

All of this is to say that one option is to quit group chats, or to quit any subject that is not neutral.  You will know what those subjects are.   You can do that if you want to.   You have the right.   In fact you have the right to not participate in any conversation or outing that you do not find joyful.

I'm sorry you're dealing with this.  It can be crazy-making until you give yourself permission to opt out.  For me, the opting-out has provided an amazing sense of control and relief and joy.   Even if I'm a little bit "left out" of the family for some things.   My mental health is worth it.

Hugs :bighug

[Hilltop]

So I tell my sibling that the director is known for his sympathies and the film has been criticised as a propaganda piece. I also say it's being shared online as part of the whole firehose of falsehood propaganda technique that some dumb people are easily dragged into (ok, not my proudest moment but I gave my sibling a way out in that I was not accusing them of being stupid).

The response? My sibling says they were just about to say this too includes propaganda (as if they were ever going to post anything other than material from the "one being attacked is to blame" side of things) and that a dumb person is the one who doesn't find out about things from the both sides.

I was thinking about this and I'm not sure how the conversation went but I read it that you called people dumb for sharing the online propaganda which your sister had just shared with you, so in essence you called her dumb, just not outright.  The only thing I would add about this is I don't feel name calling or put downs are ok in relationships.  As scapegoats we get blamed for everything and it can feel like when we do something that is not ok that we are to blame for everything else as well which isn't the case.  Your sister called you dumb back and your mother justifies it as "she means well" but you were agitated, that's not very fair to you.  Your sister most likely won't apologise however that doesn't matter, that's on her.

I would probably respond with "I'm sorry for inferring you are dumb. We disagree about this issue and that's ok.  There isn't anything more to talk about".  Obviously you know how you meant it and the gist of the conversation, perhaps you didn't mean it that way it's just perceived that way.

I suppose I see that, if I called someone something and they were upset would I apologise for that and the answer is yes.  However there are a lot of other things going on between the three of you and some unhealthy behaviours going on with your mom and sister.  Owning your part, your very small part does not mean all this drama is on you.  It's not.  Separating out each person's role in it, is sometimes the hardest thing to do and probably took me the longest to do.

If I've read it wrong let me know.  This just stood out to me as probably the only thing I see as justified in apologising for however I acknowledge I was not part of the conversation and don't know your intention however if I read it that way, then there's a good chance your sister did too, which is where her hurt feelings may have come from.  However in saying that she didn't handle it well either as she simply hurt you back.  It really isn't easy.  I hope you resolve the issue, I wouldn't want to continue to talk about this with them though.  What you said made good sense but it seems unlikely your sister will agree and it may lead to further hurt which honestly isn't worth it.

[FugitiveDaughter]

I did not mean to call her dumb. I know it was badly worded but I thought she would know that the video was iffy (which she did say later) but that some people believe the propaganda. I thought she would realise that by "dumb people" I meant other people, not her. I was hoping she was not part of the dumb people. But it was stupid of me to use the word at all. I immediately felt bad after I had pressed "send" but there ya go. We make mistakes, that was definitely a mistake on my part. Gullible perhaps (which we all are sometimes) but dumb was a bad choice of a word.

I haven't taken part in the conversation now other than let her know I did not mean to call her dumb and that I did not mean any harm with what I said. I just wanted to say that I didn't see the need to watch the video suggested to me because I see no justification in the whole war. I received a reply that she is not used to the way I write. Also asked me to explain to her why now and why would they attack but I haven't felt up to it to answer. I feel exhausted.

[SunnyMeadow]

I wouldn't reply any further either. What's done is done, you told her you didn't mean to call her dumb and that should be it on her part and your part. Who hasn't worded something in a way they wish they could go back and change? It happens to me quite often.

Hopefully she won't keep pressing you for answers. I like Hilltop's suggestion of "there isn't anything more to talk about" and be done with the group messages. I've found they cause problems so I don't get involved with them anymore.

Please don't beat yourself up over this. It's a learning experience and now you know not to talk about this kind of thing with them. As for your mom calling you and being tickled pink about it .... 

[Hilltop]

I've done exactly as you have and worded things badly, it happens.  You are not stupid, you are human.  What you replied with was great.

It's telling that you are exhausted.  PD's are exhausting. Interesting that she is saying she doesn't understand how you write....what.  You are very articulate and make a lot of sense with what you say re the war.  Sounds like she is going to try to drag you into more discussion and keep with the little digs at you.  It sounds like they enjoy the drama.  You can opt out, you don't need to engage.

[Blodyn]

I feel for you.  We've all been there.  Entered into what we thought was a simple discussion only to find it descends into an attack, leaving you feeling as if you've done something wrong, when in truth you know you haven't.  You know what your intentions were, they were honourable.  It was an attempt to be your authentic self, and there lies the problem.  An NPD can never be their authentic self.  Entering into any kind of debate with an NPD exposes you to being baited, and boy have I allowed myself to be baited over the years.  These days I don't engage.  It's not worth it.  And to make it worse, your mum, the ?peacemaker, is acting as an enabler for your NPD sister.  As well as advising you to refrain from engaging, or if you have to then give bland responses - there are some really good examples in the replies above.  I'd also recommend you watch Dr Ramani on YouTube.  She does loads of videos on narcissism but one in particular would be useful here, it's called "What is baiting?"

Hope this helps.  Don't beat yourself up.

[FugitiveDaughter]

Just thought it might be time for an update. It's been almost three months and my sibling has gone NC with me.  Yup, that's right. I was thinking of keeping my distance after the s*** stirring conversation she tried to pull everyone in but before I could do anything, she stopped talking to me. She's avoiding mom too but does call her occasionally. I am a bit annoyed that my mom went ahead and said to her that I missed her after I had said to mom that I felt a bit sad about how things turned out. I did not say I missed my sister as I'm uneasy with the thought knowing she's very artificial with her feelings which seem manufactured. I know it was mom's attempt at getting my sibling to contact me. Is it terrible to say that I'm sort of relieved she hasn't?

It's a terrible situation and I would lie if I said it doesn't affect me at all. I feel especially bad for my sister's kids and I worry if they even notice what their parents are like. After following the parents' behaviours online and contemplating on their actions in the past, I now suspect both have some stage of NPD. I also feel bad because maybe the kids feel I don't care about them at all and I do, a lot. I just cannot talk to them in fear that they will report to their parents what I wrote to them (it's the classical pattern which in the past prevented me and my siblings from talking with each other thinking one of them will tell mom). Meanwhile their parents are sinking deeper into the abyss of conspiracy theories, political propaganda and powerful, narcissistic characters they admire (there's one in particular they look up to which is very creepy).

Sometimes I feel like I cannot trust anyone. Where are the normal people, the ones with genuine empathy? Can I ever trust anyone again after always being tricked by people with PDs? It feels like I need to assess every gesture, action and spoken word because I am so used to having to be careful about hidden motives and lies. Now I'm even looking at my own husband trying to figure out if he has PD tendencies, heck I even sometimes fear I might become one or what if everyone else is sane and I'm the crazy one. 

Mom wishes I'd visit but I guess it's very telling that whenever she says it, I freeze and it takes a great effort to say "it would be lovely to be there" as I start to feel uneasy. Also, I don't know what to do with my sibling's family. I'd love to see the kids (if they care to see me) but I just cannot face their parents.