Once again... discovering who and what I am to a (childhood) friend

blacksheep7 · April 11, 2022, 12:12:45 PM

Hi all,

It is unbeleivable since coming Out of the FOG how many friends I have lost, some for the most part I put an end to. Some narcissists, others flaky, people pleasing kind where I don't matter. I am aware that there are different kinds of friendships. This is one that I thought I mattered, a true friend, loyal, through good and bad, like family. What longtime friends should be. Real friends celebrate life together.

This is the gf that I met nearly 60 yrs ago. We were close until we reached 18, having gone through our teenage years together. We were different in personality. She was a, what we called back in the day a goody goody, me on the other hand was a bad goody goody, smoking cigarettes, boys etc...looking for attention that I didn't get at home. She always took the good path even though she had a father who suffered from depression, once in a while. Her father was good to me, spoke to me about life that my parents did not. I always had a good view and opinion of him. She knows that, I told her xxx times.

Still living with our parents, we both moved in different areas, seeing each other less. I got married and had my two kids very young and working in between. I saw her a few times then she had her children in her early 40's which put a stop to our connection. It came back in 2005 when I bought my home and was single. From then on we would see each other at least once a year and calling one another on our birthdays and holidays.

She told me quite a few times that I was a sister for her since she had two brothers. Another fact is that our parents were friends and remained so until her M and my F died.

My hurt is that her daughter is getting married in August, 200 guests. I asked about any close friends being invited bc she would talk about it, that she bought her dress etc... Especially that I am supposedly a sister to her. No friends invited, just family.

What the hurt and disappointment to me is the way she answered me

No Bsheep, the families on both sides are big you know, cousins with partners and kids....it adds up fast. It was her tone, monochrome with a twist a bit elevated with defense, no regard for empathy! Not like I would have at the least expected, towards me her sister something like «unfortunately, I'm sorry that blah blah blah...

Her tone and words rang a bell and reminded me of my pd covert M when she would undermine me by defending her self, darvo in a milder manner.

I even met her daughters a couple of times and one of them was inviting me to go on a (small) boat ride, recently purchased by the parents. Not a word from my sister friend. She even celebrated her father's 90 bday telling me afterwards and even saying that they invited a couple, longtime friends.

I can understand when someone says just family when there is only fifty people or so but when you are at a number of 200, what is it for two or five more people?

Now I know and understand that I am not the sister friend, far from it.

What are your thoughts? How would you feel in this situation?

bloomie · April 11, 2022, 02:55:20 PM

blacksheep7 - I am really sorry this hurt is in the middle of this relationship you have cherished.

It is really hard to realize that the things someone said to us that meant everything to us may not mean as much to them... if they even remember saying them. "You are a sister to me." "I love you." "You are family to me." those are powerful, inclusive statements and you believed them and, I imagine have done what you can to take that role and honor it in your friend's life.

Weddings and guest lists are complicated and we all understand that. Sometimes the guest list is not divided up evenly and we really have no idea what is going on there. What it seems your heart was looking for was a simple acknowledgment of your place in your friend's life even if she was unable to extend an invitation to you to the wedding or to her father's special celebration.

It has helped me in times like these to recognize and process the hurt and confusion the disconnect between someone we saw as a dear friend/sister's words and actions - just like you are doing, to choose not to take it personally, and to examine the information this is giving about the actual status of the relationship.

Then to work through and adjust my level of closeness and how I think about the relationship going forward. It is a painful process and it takes time and can be really lonely inner work. I am so glad you shared and so sorry this is happening.

blacksheep7 · April 13, 2022, 11:06:40 AM

Bloomie
Thank you for your kind, comforting supporting words and wisdom, as always

I needed that.

It has been a week today that I made that phone call. My emotions and her being on my mind are a lot less intense, had time to process it. It bothered me to the point that the days following, I dreamnt about it and also had nightmares. As a matter of fact, too many nightmares lately.

The fact that I lost a 30+ friend exactly two months ago and now this is enough and hard to swallow.

I am an optimistic/realistic, always have been and strongly believe that things happen for a reason. I am also a person that can not fake a relationship any longer. I realized that our friendship has been eye opening for me. I would open up more, she on the other hand would not reveal anything intimate about her life, relationships.
She was talking about her dd one time trying to tell me that she was anxious, my gosh, the beating around the bush to get to it. It never came up again.
She is very reserved so it's like walking on eggshells with someone like that. I'm not interested, for a longtime friend who calls me her sister. Her bday is in about a month, I do not have any intent to call her....for what?

DistanceNotDefense · April 14, 2022, 02:12:39 PM

Blacksheep - I very much resonate with what Bloomie said as well. These things feel very personal, it's hard not to take them personally, but ultimately I don't think this is anything personal toward you from your friend. If anything, your friend just might not be thinking of you - they are fully self-absorbed (as we are wont to be sometimes, sometimes we have to be.) Your friend just doesn't seem to be "seeing" you at all, actually.

That said, there is a discrepancy between her words and her actions: saying she sees you as family (her sister) and then saying only family is affordable to attend the wedding. That doesn't sound like you are her sister, to me. Maybe your friend doesn't realize it, but perhaps she is saying you are her sister, because that's what she knows you want to hear - but she doesn't actually believe it. She didn't grow up with an actual biological sister so maybe she doesn't know how to maintain such a relationship in a healthy way. Your idea of a sister, also, may not be her idea of a sister. She is not calling you such in a way that is true to the word "sister."

I've had similar experiences this past year or so coming Out of the FOG. Many friends/people calling me "sister," "family," "inner circle," etc. in person. I watch as they plan birthday parties without me, ask for favors but cannot return them, keep me away from their own families, exclude, triangulate, choose highly dysfunctional friendships over me, etc. It's taken a lot of healing for me to see that it's not personal toward me. How could it, possibly, when I'm not actually seen at all?

I don't have a place in their lives because that wasn't what was meant for me. I also don't want it, when I really think about it - I just wanted them to like me, and I didn't know why at the time. Turns out there was a shadow of them that reminded me of FOO and these people are a lot like my FOO. A part of me still wants to be liked by them, and please them so much, to replay/"fix" the trauma. But there's nothing there when I really think about it. So I will continue focusing my attention and energies elsewhere, and use this like precious currency to make room for something a little better in my life. It is lonely, though. But I'm learning to love my own company - and the very precious few that seem to want to stick around and return my bids for love and connection with their own (how sweet the feeling!) even though I'm clumsy to these new, healthier ways of doing so that feel so unnatural to me.

Many people, I think, sometimes don't value the *person* behind the friendship - more so, they thrive on the *attention* behind it. Like I said, they don't *see* you, just the spotlight you throw on them that makes them feel so important to someone. In a lot of friendships this mutual expectation is enough! But not for close friendships, definitely not for what most people regard as "sisters."

Once your attention starts to move away (not completely cutting them off - just moving it away) you might see these so-called friends in their true light. Once you start to leave them in the dark on their own without the spotlight, you may hear "hey, are you okay?" While from some you'll only hear "hey where'd my spotlight go?!?"

It's been fascinating (and a little painful, but kind of in a good, gut-confirming kind of way) to see just how my own false "sister" "inner circle" "I love you, but I can't reciprocate your efforts," friends respond to that waning attention. Some try to get it back by increasing the franticness/list of problems they have, hoping I'll get more worried about them. Some of them indirectly/passive aggressively let me know my efforts to stay connected are not enough. They even seem angry or snarky. Some try to make plans with me then leave me to do the work to make it happen, as usual.

Then, I see them make gargantuan efforts for *other* people, and that's when I really, really know. None of these responses show that I am seen, valued, or even loved - the words don't match the actions. I was just a spotlight. I'm not family, sister, or inner circle whatsoever. But if their important people have found friends that can fight to keep them, then I know I'll eventually find those people, too...if I stop spending my time chasing people with no real interest in me!!!

It all comes down to how you personally feel, too, Blacksheep - is this what you look for in a close female friend/sister? If not, keep looking. Spend some of your time and precious energy elsewhere. It's the only way to make room for something new.

blacksheep7 · April 15, 2022, 11:08:34 AM

Quote from: DistanceNotDefense on April 14, 2022, 02:12:39 PM

None of these responses show that I am seen, valued, or even loved - the words don't match the actions. I was just a spotlight. I'm not family, sister, or inner circle whatsoever.

It all comes down to how you personally feel, too, Blacksheep - is this what you look for in a close female friend/sister? If not, keep looking. Spend some of your time and precious energy elsewhere. It's the only way to make room for something new.

Thank you DistanceNotDefense for sharing your point of view and experiences.

You validated exactly how I've come to see this one sided sister friendship. I am not seen or valued as I would have thought. I have been evaluating my relationships on how their actions and words match. I have encountered several pivitol experiences with two of my in-laws in the past few years, how they expressed in words how much dh and I meant to them but are not available unless «what's in it for me». I just don't bother to deal with them on a personal level any longer when I see them in family gatherings. I can't cut them off like a friend.

The light bulb moment that clearly had significance, I can not emphasize enough, was of who and what I am to her was her response! Not taking any consideration that I might be hurt or feel rejected by not being invited. No empathy, «I'm sorry that....» what so ever, only justification and defense. That is certainly not one who cares or sees me as family. I've had that lack of empathy experience from my own PdM after a major breakup. I know it is not personal, still hard not to take it personally. They are self absorbed in their little world, what ever that is for them and who is part that of that inner circle.

After this incident I realized that I am a longtime friend with a certain level of obligation to stay in touch, calling on bdays and holidays, seeing each other once a year (before Covid). Not a sister, more or less superficial, just highlighting main events in our life. Her bday is in late May and I am still set on not calling her. Mine is in august, a week before the wedding. Will she call me? If so, I do intend to tell her my feelings. Then again, I might feel differently all together by then and just let it fade away.

I was always one to open up easily, sometimes not realizing it was a one way street until much later in the relationship. Even though I am not looking for friendships, this is a lesson for me to keep in my future encounters that I have been telling myself for a while.

Luckily, like you, I have been enjoying my own company since Covid. Even though the rejection is difficult to accept, I do not let it define me. I know my own value, now.

treesgrowslowly · April 17, 2022, 07:51:27 AM

Hi Blacksheep,

I would feel awful, just as you did, when she delivered this news with so little (i.e. zero) empathy.

The other members here have already said what went through my mind as well. There is an asymmetry here that you now see. Maybe it was there all along. She sees you a certain way, and you see her a certain way. As I get older, I realize how this is actually really common.

I totally agree with DistanceNotDefense - her definition of 'sister' is not the same as your definition.

I can almost guarantee you, in the future, when someone tries to call you their sister, you will look for behaviours that match up with that, and whether that person actually knows you so well, that they feel like a sister to you.

With some time, say 6 months or a year, you might look back on this entire friendship with her, and be able to see how it fit into your life, and if there were times you did feel close with her, you'll see in hindsight, what the friendship meant to you, and what it was. I have done that sort of thing. It usually takes me quite a while to be able to then look back and see that the friendship ended for reasons I understand more and more, the more time passes.

My guess is that she doesn't want you at the wedding because maybe you played the role of the 'safe outsider'. This is where people with in-tact families, use an outsider, to vent to, or confide in every so often. When it comes time to celebrate something in their life with a social gathering, the 'safe outsider' finds herself not included - and can feel really hurt. I believe that there are clearly women with in-tact FOO, use someone in their life as that 'safe outsider'. They might use them to go out and party every so often, or tell secrets to, or basically, just use in some way.

The 'safe outsider' tends to be someone with a lot of empathy, kindness, patience, who understands when their friend is busy and can only see them so many times a year. Ultimately, being a 'safe outsider' for someone sucks - because you get excluded from the celebrations in their life.

Was she actually interested in any sort of sisterhood? A true sisterly bond would require time and care / love.

A lot of people - they are ok with the sort of thing you describe - just touching base a few times a year on birthdays. To them that is enough.

For you, you probably wanted her to care about her friendship with you a lot more than she actually does. This is a common dilemma after coming Out of the FOG. We crave relationships of depth. We are tired of superficial friendships. We hope that the people in our lives, also want relationships of depth.

That might not be the reason that she didn't invite you to the wedding, but if it is, you should know that it is common to feel the way you feel.

It is very very insightful of you to see how little empathy she had when she spoke to you about the wedding. It hurts to see people behave like this. I think it gets easier over time, for us. But the experiences like this are painful when they happen. It isn't your fault that you were open to being close with her. Sounds like she failed to see that you were worth a lot more than her casual treatment of her time with you, and her hurtful treatment regarding this wedding. That is her failure, not yours. She missed out on having a real friend.

Trees

DistanceNotDefense · April 17, 2022, 02:13:39 PM

I'm glad you feel validated BlackSheep

and I agree with all of TGS's wisdom as well. I was also a "safe outsider" to a friend a couple years ago. I noticed she would look me up anytime she needed to trauma dump about her family. But couldn't be bothered when things were going well with her/them. She'd- wildly switch between complaining about her FOO to talking about them non-stop in a fabulous light, cancelling plans with me openly/last minute for the family she was crying on my shoulder to me about just a week prior....and during this time she called me "sister" when she also knew I was just beginning NC with my FOO. It was agony. I know I am not her sister. She doesn't know how to have a healthy sister (her relationships with her own are terrible!)

Her bday has come and gone. Couldn't bring myself to send her a message or anything. Couldn't bring myself to respond to her casual messages wanting to meet up again - when every time it probably while her family is shunning her, or she would probably flake last minute if things turned around with them.

It's your choice what to do. But yes, just stopping contact was what I chose. I still feel extremely guilty and struggle with letting friends like this fall away. The people pleaser in me wants to reach out to them so badly and keep them in my life even though it isn't nourishing at all, but another part of me is relieved and happy to find new connections, and take care of the ones I do have. My therapist also seems to be rooting me on in this work so I'll continue even though in some ways it feels so wrong - like I need to make sure everyone likes me or I'm risking "over pruning"

Your friend couldn't see the great friend you are and were. Her loss!

blacksheep7 · April 23, 2022, 09:48:53 AM

Thank you treesgrowslowly and DistanceNotDefense! I really appreciated that you replied to give me more insight.
Please excuse me for not answering ealier, I was under the weather mentally and put my computor aside for a while.

Trees, I really like the «safe outsider» explanation. I had never heard of it before, it makes much sense to me. All I know now is that I am not a sister friend. One thing that came to mind was that maybe she doesn't want me there with her foo because she is aware of my nc with mine and might be embarassed that I start talking about it to her two brothers that were part of my life also when younger, just friends hanging out together when everyone used to go outside.

Anyhow, I wouldn't say a thing, just that they are all doing fine, as far as I know.
That is the only explanation since she is the hush hush type, keeping up appearances, everything cool on the outside. We are quit different in personality which to me as no significance in what our friendship could still be, pleasant and meaningful.
The no invitation is where I draw the line of a near 60 year friendship that doesn't have its value to match.

I can almost guarantee you, in the future, when someone tries to call you their sister, you will look for behaviours that match up with that, and whether that person actually knows you so well, that they feel like a sister to you.
Indeed, it will stick to me forever as this is the second sister friend that I lost within the last few months. The first was a complete opposite, tooooooooo close.

Your words mean a great deal for me in this time of abandonment. It has been difficult in my life when I've had breakups before Out of the FOG as many of us here. It is still difficult but with understanding people a little better now, I can accept, live with the fact that we are not all meant to get along as we grow older, each with our own experiences, views and needs of what friendships are to one another.

All this to say that I will not, do not want any close relationships anymore. I find that it is difficult to have open, deep conversations with girl friends without them not feeling offended. IME.

blacksheep7 · April 23, 2022, 10:11:13 AM

DistanceNotDefense,

Her bday has come and gone. Couldn't bring myself to send her a message or anything. Couldn't bring myself to respond to her casual messages wanting to meet up again -

Good for you, not being taken advantage in this one sided friendship. This sounds like my tooo close sister friend that told me farewell three months ago. She lives in complete dysfunction with her foc, expected me to always regulate her strong emotions to her convenience. I let myself go in the enmeshment, still learning.

I'm sorry that you feel extremely guilty about letting go these friends. We absolutely must choose how we want to be treated in order for us to have a better life which certainly applies to friendships also.

Glad to know that your therapist is rooting for you. So am I! Everything takes time to master, slowly but surely is my motto.

I am looking forward to new connections when I get out there one day, covid dying down.

You and trees have been so supporting, comforting in telling me that she lost a great friend.
Very heartwarming

DistanceNotDefense · April 24, 2022, 12:53:09 PM

Quote from: blacksheep7 on April 23, 2022, 10:11:13 AM
DistanceNotDefense,

Her bday has come and gone. Couldn't bring myself to send her a message or anything. Couldn't bring myself to respond to her casual messages wanting to meet up again -

Good for you, not being taken advantage in this one sided friendship. This sounds like my tooo close sister friend that told me farewell three months ago. She lives in complete dysfunction with her foc, expected me to always regulate her strong emotions to her convenience. I let myself go in the enmeshment, still learning.

I'm sorry that you feel extremely guilty about letting go these friends. We absolutely must choose how we want to be treated in order for us to have a better life which certainly applies to friendships also. Glad to know that your therapist is rooting for you. So am I! Everything takes time to master, slowly but surely is my motto.

I am looking forward to new connections when I get out there one day, covid dying down.

You and trees have been so supporting, comforting in telling me that she lost a great friend.
Very heartwarming

treesgrowslowly · April 25, 2022, 07:41:15 AM

Hi Blacksheep,

I'm glad I could help. It took me a long time to start to see this stuff in my own life.

It isn't easy figuring out this stuff.

I think I know what you mean in your last post about people getting offended. When people get "offended" by our honest explanation of our feelings, it really is ALL about them. It is about how they want things to be - it is about their control issues that they won't be able to see. The only sane option is to leave them alone, or find some way of enjoying their company without talking to them about anything 'deep' ever again.

Getting "offended" when we tell people how we feel, is a lazy, self-absorbed tactic, it is a way for them to say "I really don't want to listen to any of this", without actually having the guts to say that to us. That is my opinion.

I find that too hard. It's too hard for me to keep up appearances with people who can't even be bothered to listen to anyone in their life anymore. I find it exhausting.

It is so much more emotional work than being honest - for me. But not for people who want to keep up appearances. For them, they don't want the honest conversations, they want the appearances.

Now that I'm older, I know that it is hard to live like this - Out of the FOG. But the alternative (staying in the FOG) is even harder. Not listening to the people is a form of control. It is an attempt to control the narrative in their heads. When I got Out of the FOG, I realized how many people were not really listening to me. I was taking time to listen to them, but that didn't mean they were listening to me.

And from what I've seen in my life so far, it works for a lot of people. They stay in denial, they don't listen to their relatives, their partners, their 'friends', their kids, their neighbours...etc etc etc...they just go about their day, never listening deeply to anyone. Not really hearing them at all. Just going along, often making it appear as if they do listen - but really, they do not.

Every so often, the topic of aging and narcissism comes up on the forum here. A lot of us lose family or friends over time, and sometimes the topic of "how did this person in my life get so rigid in old age?" is explored here.

Narcissism can get worse as someone ages. I am of the opinion that it does get worse with age - the person just gets more and more rigid, more and more controlling, less and less interested in listening to the people around them. That is just my opinion. When I meet someone older than me now, I look for signs that they know how to take in feedback, I look for signs that they know how to listen. I look for signs that they are truly interested in what is going on for someone other than them.

And I am often disappointed, because yeah, a lot of people do age into a pretty self-absorbed mindset. Not everyone. But a lot of people. I think it is better to be prepared for it. I think it should be talked about more openly. Because a lot of us end up feeling like collateral damage if we try to keep these friendships going, with people who are just so stuck in 'appearances' and other FOG related stuff.

I am sorry that your recent friend issues led to feeling so many things. I am sure you are working through those as best as you can. Time provides perspective, which enhances the healing that we all need to do to help ourselves through this stuff. I also hope that you are able to see how much strength it took for you to recognize the problem with this friend's recent behaviour, and that you were not going to keep going along with her if she is going to act like this towards you.

Trees

blacksheep7 · July 21, 2022, 09:53:47 AM

Update,

As I said, I did not call her for her bday, late May. She called me on a statutory holiday, approximately one month after her bday. First off, she called at 5 p.m. which to me is odd, supper time, on a holiday???? I was at a restaurant, I didn't answer and had no intention of doing so whatever time.
I wanted to hear what she had to say in her mssg. I figured that she called bc I didn't call her on her bday and was calling to see what was up with that, that I might be ill.

She Never called on any holiday except for christmas and to wish me a happy new year. So yes, it's odd and she certainly realized my absence of bday wishes.

NO, none of that in her message. She wished me a happy holiday, hoping that I was taking advantage of the beautiful sunny day, ending it with «also calling to know how you are doing, thinking of you bsheep».

So, not a word about the absence of my call for her bday which is unusual, in 17 ish yrs. I have a gut feeling that she probably realized why I didn't call. Can't even say that much. Not even « just calling to see if you are alright since I didn't hear from you on my bday»

Well, I didn't call her back, nor has she. It's nearly a month now. She is flaky!

My plan all along was to wait for her to call me back and hear what she had to say, which was nothing. My bday is in the beginning of August and her dd is getting married the week after.

I will see if she does call me on my birthday, if so I will still not answer because I can not pour my heart out yet since her dd is getting married and I don't want to spoil or cause turmoil. I certainly don't want to be invited just because, even though I utterly thing it won't happen. She was invited at my small wedding ten years ago.

I do intend to write a letter about my thoughts and our relationship. It is very important to me to let her know how let down I felt as a sister for the longest friendship in my life. I don't intend to have a further friendship with her, it's useless. I do not care for a superficial friendship where I don't matter and should be much more in this circumstance.

I have to speak my mind when someone hurts me. I always said that everything can be said as long it is an appropriate, respectful, mature discussion.

countrygirl · August 23, 2022, 07:55:18 AM

Hello black sheep,

This topic really resonated for me, so I read your posts and all of the thoughtful and wise replies. Before continuing, I have to ask whether she called on your birthday? I suspect you might have posted about it if she had, but perhaps not. If she did call, I think it's good you already had a plan of action.

I have to tell you that I too am now leery if someone says I am "like a sister" to them. Once knew someone who said this early on, and then found out that it was what she said to many, and she wasn't a good friend to anyone.

I think that people often show their true colors at times which carry a lot of emotional weight, such as weddings and funerals. As a matter of fact, I once posted on here about a lifelong friend of mine who deserted me when my father died. Her husband was even a pall bearer. She attended the funeral and said all of the right things, but that was it. I made the mistake of calling her the day after the funeral, because there was something deeply upsetting (my father was a narcissist) which I wanted to discuss with her. Well, the minute she heard that I was upset, she said that someone was stopping by, but that she would call me at seven-thirty that evening. She repeatedly said, "Chin up! I'll talk to you at seven-thirty." I thanked her profusely. All day, I was looking forward to that call. I settled into the den at that time, telling my husband that my friend would be calling. Well, no call all evening. Husband said she'd call in the morning. She did NOT call for three days! When she finally called, and heard what was going on, she started crying and said she should have done more for me. I told her that I was fine, that I had just needed to talk. By the way, she offered no explanation of why she hadn't called. The truth is she just didn't want to deal with me when I was upset, despite the fact that she had talked to me many times when SHE was upset.

Well, I have never felt the same about her since. We had been friends since third grade. I moved away, but we always kept in touch, and I would see her when I returned home. I could go on and on with the details, but suffice it to say that I was shocked by how she treated me. I may be moving back to live in my parents' home, but I don't feel particularly warm and fuzzy about living near her again. It is sad, but I can't change it.

I do think that actions are more telling than words. And I agree wholeheartedly with the Maya Angelou quotation. These long term friends showed us who they are, and who we are to them.

blacksheep7 · September 12, 2022, 10:53:04 AM

Hello countrygirl

I am sorry for the long delay in my reply. Dh was on vacation, we were in and out on road trips.

To answer your question, she did call me on my birthday and left a formal message of wishes.
She hoped that I was fine and that we would have a chance to see each other again adding that our longtime friendship was precious.
As I mentionned, I did not answer since her dd was getting married the next week. It certainly was not a good time for me to talk about my feelings towards our longtime precious friendship.

It wasn't just not being invited to her dd wedding, she had celebrated her father's 90th birthday at her home with siblings and longtime friends (one couple). She told me so herself! I didn't think anything about it at the time until dh brought it to my attention, especially that she came to my wedding twelve years ago.

We are totally different in personality, she is much too serious. I also noticed that I would do most of the talking. My conversations were more personal, open and deeper. I do not like this one way street that is not in my nature. I need this special connection with a longtime friend.

I had put this behind me this summer, still wavering if I should call her back one of these days to discuss it or I just let our friendship go.
In her two calls, she didn't seem to be worried that she hadn't heard from me. It's been nearly four months now. I know personally that I would ask myself.......what's going on, did something happen? I am a friend that stands on the side, not in the inner circle. This friendship does not give me much, with or without it.

When we were younger, school years, I met my friends cousin that would come down from the country every summer to spend a couple of weeks. I saw that cousin at the funeral parlor when my girlfriend's mother passed and she was eager to see me. She invited me to stop at her house any time which I did. Well, she opened up to me like we had remained in touch since our younger years. Wow. Not like her cousin!

The last time my gf and I spoke, she even asked me if I spoke with my Foo knowing that I am nc.

I think that people often show their true colors at times which carry a lot of emotional weight, such as weddings and funerals

I agree countrygirl. I noticed coming Out of the FOG that conflicts bring out the real personality of people, how they deal with them. Your friend is like mine, does not want to deal with heavy, deep emotional situations/conversations. She should have called you the next day at least. Not even an explanation for her silence is poor behavior.

Having friends of this kind is just like having a conversation with a neighbour, limited.

Being friends young, then becoming an adult does not make us necessarily compatible for a deep friendship. We remain the same or have the wonderful chance of growing and sharing meaningful conversations. I understand this now.

Leonor · September 27, 2022, 04:40:47 PM

Black sheep, I'm sorry you're hurting.

I would gently point out that this wedding is not your friend's wedding.

It is her daughter's wedding.

You are not like family to your friend's daughter, you are a friend of her mother.

It would not be appropriate for your friend's daughter to invite you to her wedding.

Even though I understand your pain, it sounds to me like a pain stemming from your own feelings of rejection and abandonment in your family, and that searing pain is deafening.

The fact is, your friend is not family. She has her own family. You are not in it.

It's not friend-like to place the heavy weight of our family's failures on the shoulders of our friends. They aren't here to replace our family, they are here to liven the day up a bit.

You have your family. Your family sucks. Welcome to the My Sucky Family Club! We're here, and we get it, and we will sit with you.

I would encourage you to write a letter to your family instead of your friend. Feel it, give it words, wrote it, read it, weep over it, and burn it.

Then gauge how you feel about your friend.

Pinkos · November 29, 2022, 10:39:22 PM

Thank you for the "safe outsider" phrase. It perfectly articulates a dynamic I've intuited in some relationships but never had the words for.

@blacksheep7 - I hope you come back with an update on where you are with your feelings about this friendship. I read the whole thread and then went back to re-read your initial post again after reading @Leonor's comment. I've definitely been where you have been with those exact same painful feelings. What sticks out the most to me in your original post is that the use of the "sister" label by your friend is responsible for a lot of the misunderstanding. I've noticed this in my own life, where people will say affectionate words that are never borne out by their behavior and I hang on to those words long past their expiration date, which sets me up for the painful fall when I finally must face reality. It sounds like this friendship was never close even after it was rekindled. It doesn't sound like you talked regularly for example - just bdays and holidays. Unfortunately, some people play fast and loose with their words -- I guess maybe because it makes them feel good and it sounds nice in the moment. Or they may even be deceiving themselves and believe they mean what they say when in reality they have no intention of backing up their words with action. But ultimately, their actions show you over a period of time where you stand with them. And it doesn't take very long to see the words don't match the actions. But I know I've ignored all the yellow and pink flags along the way to the glaring red ones. I was also deceving myself because I desperately wanted to believe the words. Sometimes I NEEDED (psychologically) to believe the words and the rosy view of the friendship rather than the reality. I wonder why this daughter's wedding proved to be such a pivotal moment for this friendship. I have to wonder with @Leonor whether not being invited to this event has triggered painful FOO rejection.

I think it's reasonable to be hurt because you saw the friendship one way only to finally come to the realization it's not at all what you thought. And it's reasonable to feel deceived by the "nice" words. And you may not want to continue engaging at the same level because it's too painful to do so and that's valid too. I think if it's going to feel like a chore and an obligation or like you have to prove that you're not "taking things personally" then it may be time to take some space.

blacksheep7 · November 30, 2022, 12:53:37 PM

Hi Pinkos

Thank you for taking an interest in my story. I did not answer Leonor's comments because it hit me like a brick, some truth which I probably did not want to see or face. I left it at that. Yes, I must still have some remaining issues of abandonment caused by my Foo and anyone who is close to me. I also was not up to date on marriage ettiquette in this millennial.

In the 80's, 90's, the parents of the couple to be wed invited close friends. It was a major milestone to be shared for everyone concerned.

I can understand that there is the finance/expenses to be considered in which the couple participates in certain circumtances these days. The big factor for me was the number of guests, 200.

I received another call in October and let it go to voicemail. She said that she had to let me know that she did invite a close friend that would sometimes pick up her dd at daycare. It had bothered her for not telling me...guilt (she did not use that word) another pretaining to it, hmmm. Then usual small talk of wishing that we meet, at our homes or at the restaurant. I didn't want to face this call. I dreaded it and sometimes I wondered why. Surely because I knew how she would react to what I had to say, lack of emotional expression. Very formal and monotone.

I made sure to begin the conversation by asking her how her dd wedding was. She was pleased.

I poured my heart out, told her that her words did not meet her actions of a precious longtime friend and that it was mostly her father's 90th birthday that was overlooked.

She said she was sorry, once. She thought that I was deceived in not attending her dd wedding. No. She started saying that a friendship has to be maintained, calling or seeing eachother. That is when I said that I respected her pattern of communication, a few times a year. As I am writing this, it comes to mind that when we did rekindle, I kept this relationship mostly for her liking because she was open minded about my nc with foo having seen my NF temperament a few times. I needed that validation at that time. Your phrase helped me to remember why I was in this relationship to start with, the people pleasing of my past.
The decades and life experiences have projected us in different directions when in comes to our characters. She is very closed off to deep issues, toxic positivity is her way of looking at everything.

I was wound up talking about my feelings and she was ready to have some catchup chit chat and plan to meet. I cut the conversation saying that it was all I had to say. She said «you can call me anytime, if you wish».

So it seems the ball is in my court. I have no intention of hitting that ball and am at peace with that. She has trouble coming to my house on the south shore by car plus she is planning to move furthur away, closer to her daughters. For me, that friendship has ran its course. Not much to miss, unfortunately.

I'm sorry that you had the same experience. Nice words are sometimes just nice words, nothing else, period. ACTIONS speak louder than words in any case.

Iamenoughmary · December 02, 2022, 06:02:57 AM

blacksheep7, I have the exact same friend. The one who leaves the ball in our court. They say call and we do but they never return the same courtesy. I text and she refuses to ever text me. Like you I am done! Not much of a loss is it with friends such as these. You should have been invited to the wedding. I understand how you feel. a friend for a lifetime should invite you to a daughters wedding. Cheers to us for not hitting the ball anymore! A friend of a lifetime does not do these things. Mine also stays closed off to deep issues. She uses joking around or sarcastic comments if real life is talked about. ENOUGH for us blacksheep. We are so much more worthy than what they can give. Blessing to you ..

blacksheep7 · December 02, 2022, 10:02:28 AM

Hi neverenoughmary

I am pleased that you validated my point of view of a longtime friend who has often called me a sister. I can accept that some people have trouble going deep in conversations, they have issues of their own that have not been adressed, looked into.

This is a close to 60 year friendship who knows my upbringing as well as I know hers, a father that suffered periodic depression. By the way, she never talked about it, another lightbulb moment here. She just scratches the surface of our subjects, leaving me hanging. If it's a physical illness, no problem. If it's mental, forget it.

I always was an open book to her as most of my longtime friends. It took me a long time to realize in this relationship as well as others that I was the one doing most of the talking (entertaining).

Quote:
Mine also stays closed off to deep issues. She uses joking around or sarcastic comments if real life is talked about.

The typical attitude of responding. My Foo

Yes, cheers to us for being true to ourselves.

Pinkos · December 02, 2022, 09:01:50 PM

Hi blacksheep - I totally get it. I've struggled with these same feelings and dynamics my whole life. And sadly, I haven't been able to come up with a clearcut view of it all. I still go back and forth. I think I'm trying to figure out what's my part and what's the other person's part. In reading your update, I was also sensing that this was a friendship where you were more vulnerable and looking for increased closeness whereas your friend was keeping you at arms length. Your response to @neverenoughmary confirms my sense. I also feel like in any relatioinship the person who wants less closeness basically gets to dictate the terms and for the person who wants more it's an uncomfortable place to be in for an extended period of time. I think this end was perhaps inevitable.

I also feel most people have their family and a close circle of friends and everyone else is extraneous. They may not be willing to put forth much effort in any new relationships/friendships. But they want to have a relationship at their convenience and can give you mixed signals a lot of times. It's greedy and thoughtless. I think that if you can sense someone wants more closeness and you're not willing to give it, you should let the other person go and not try to take what you can from them as if it's a buffet. Just like in dating, if a man is interested in me and I know I'm not, I would discourage him from pursuing me. I could just let him pursue and enjoy his efforts/the attention, but I feel like that's wrong. But that's just me. I know many people don't feel this way. I'm not trying to toot my own horn here and say I'm such a great person. I definitely relate to your frustration with this situation and I'm not convinced that it's a just a trigger response. That line of thinking seems to enourage perpetual self-blame and taking more than our share of responsibility in relationships.