To many of them in my life

[Lilyloo]

I wrote about my mother calling herself grandma to MY grandchildren. The woman who's seen them maybe 6 times in their lives.  The sister in law is now calling my youngest grandchild " little Ann" that being herself. Ugggg!!  I changed her name here, tho I'm at the point I don't care what she sees. Over and over, on facebook,  at holidays right in front of me, etc she calls my grandchild little Ann. If theres a picture of my grandaughter she immediately comments "little ann"  "there's little Ann"  What is with these people??  NPDs I guess!  How arrogant of her. Nothing in my being can understand these people.  Sorry I just had to write it out.  Probably seems very not important, but to me it's just ridiculous. To, to many narcs surrounding me

[SunnyMeadow]

Once I saw one narc, I started seeing them all over!

That would annoy me too. It's all about the attention for them isn't? Photos, holidays or basic life that's really about the child is flipped around to focus on them. Seems we can't get away from these kind of people.

[Lilyloo]

Hi Sunny, I hope you are doing ok today. I think of what you are going thru. My stuff seems so stupid. I just cant cope unless I write it out.  It helps me alot. I let these people get to me.  I just want peace. Sending you best wishes and a big 

[SunnyMeadow]

Your stuff isn't stupid at all. It's just part of the bigger picture. Life with "them" is such a struggle.

You are sweet Lilyloo!!  I'm doing pretty well. Taking it day by day.

[treesgrowslowly]

People who do that have no sense of boundaries. That's what that is. It is an attempt to force the appearance of relationship with others, and it is wholly different from being mature enough to actually just have healthy boundaries with people.

There is no such thing as narcissism without s****y boundaries.

I am sorry you are dealing with this. The reason it bothers you, is because you know it is wrong. It confuses people. It gaslights them. Children don't need labels like that and they certainly don't need to be calling certain people "grandma" who are not close with them. It teaches them that a person can be 'allowed in' to their life, even when that person is so flaky, she shows up a handful of times each year to pay attention to them.

Narcissists will always do this stuff. And it is exhausting when you are dealing with it day after day. I took a hard line with the narcissists in my life. Especially when they project so much onto children.

Narcissism in a family is awful to deal with.

Trees

[Lilyloo]

treesgrowslowly, thank you!  You are so right,  these types have no boundaries.  She's very  much N type.  It is all so clear when  I read about Ns. You helped me very much

[Lilyloo]

Thanks Sunny!  I'm thinking of you. Hugs

[AlisonWonder]

Treesgrowslowly, I love this bit, "it is an attempt to force the appearance of relationships with others."  When I was young I tried to mimic the behaviour of  people who seemed to have a good relationship.  I assumed that physical closeness, certain facial expressions, jokes and teasing were what actually created the relationships I saw, rather than time and trust.  Of course it just drives people away.  I now have two older family members who want my trust, but they ignore my emails, even my questions about their doings, and just start afresh each time.  It really creeps me out.

Lilyloo that experience sounds awful, I am sorry you are going through this.  I could not agree more, too many of them in my life too.   When I went NC several years ago, I was able to stop holding conversations with these people in my head, which eventually enabled me to listen to ordinary people and the difference has been a shock.

People who do that have no sense of boundaries. That's what that is. It is an attempt to force the appearance of relationship with others, and it is wholly different from being mature enough to actually just have healthy boundaries with people.

There is no such thing as narcissism without s****y boundaries.

I am sorry you are dealing with this. The reason it bothers you, is because you know it is wrong. It confuses people. It gaslights them. Children don't need labels like that and they certainly don't need to be calling certain people "grandma" who are not close with them. It teaches them that a person can be 'allowed in' to their life, even when that person is so flaky, she shows up a handful of times each year to pay attention to them.

Narcissists will always do this stuff. And it is exhausting when you are dealing with it day after day. I took a hard line with the narcissists in my life. Especially when they project so much onto children.

Narcissism in a family is awful to deal with.

Trees

[treesgrowslowly]

AlisonWonder,

These are things I learned the hard way, after growing up in a really dysfunctional family, where none of the adults had a clue about how to have healthy boundaries!

In learning about narcissism, one of the traits they have is that they will work hard to get us to take our guard down and trust them. You mentioned you've got some relatives who want you to trust them, but you can see how little they are doing to make that seem like a good idea. That is all we can really do at the end of the day. People show us who they are, and it is up to us to believe them. We have to see through the 'love bombing' and other manipulations. Like you are doing.

It is sad to me that there are so so many people who, even into old age, they have no idea what a healthy relationship looks like. But I am working on accepting this fact, because otherwise I end up veering into my own FOG about that person. Even into their later years, not everyone has learned healthy communication and healthy boundaries. I know coming from an unhealthy FOO, I had hopes that it would be easy to find healthy relationships outside my FOO.

TI've learned that there are basically two ways that I reinforce the recovery from PD abuse. The first one is to spend some time around people who are not manipulating the people around them. This can be hard to locate, depending on circumstances. The second is to do the inner work so that in solitude, the emotional safety with one's self returns.

In practicing those two things for several years, I find that the PD dysfunctional stuff 'stands out like a sore thumb' to my eyes and ears, more and more each day! Being manipulated should feel 'off', because it is.

It still bothers me that it is so common, like the OP subject line of this thread, but it should not be felt as normal or acceptable, the way that they treat us.

That takes a lot of work when childhood was spent with all those dysfunctional behaviours being so normalized. To hear my FOO talk, it is "normal" to be manipulated and gaslit (for them I guess it was normal). It is 'normal' to call certain relatives grandchildren even when they are not. All of those manipulations were coded as 'normal and acceptable' to me when I was very young and impressionable.

With inner work, that sort of training can be undone. We are doing it here together!

Our desire to be in trusting relationships does get 'in the way' sometimes, because a lot of people, they are just not really great at relationships, even if they are older, still have not learned how to be very trustworthy. I have learned that we cannot apply our own desire for trusting, to the wrong people. It leads to disaster every time. Like you wrote - real relationship trust comes from time and trust. Both are needed. It is sad that it seems rare to find those.

Trees

[AlisonWonder]

I liked your post Treesgrowslowly, all of it.  Yes it is everywhere once you learn about it.  I heard that 50% of people have at least one PD parent and I thought, that can't be true, but if you say that 15% of the population have a PD or are close to it, it does make sense.  If a family has one PD parent and, say, three children, that is three children who have a PD parent, plus the PD parent themselves who probably has a PD parent, plus the normal parent who probably also had a PD parent of their own if they are attracted to a PD partner.  So that whole family "qualifies", even if only one person in it has a PD.  50% of the people you meet are likely to have "fleas", and relatives you don't want to know.
So you really need to know, are they aware of toxic behaviour?

I feel embarrassed that I would have really been attracted by the BS emails not so many years ago, and ignored the red flags. 

[treesgrowslowly]

Hello AlisonWonder,

Wow! That is really good food for thought! I have not come across much data myself on what percentage has a PD, what percentage of the population has a PD parent, but I have come to believe that the family where both parents were healthy enough to meet their kids needs in a  'good enough' way, are lower than society would like to believe. People don't need to be raised by perfect parents who never make mistakes, but with PD parenting, a lot was missing, the entire childhood. It wasn't a case of "oh some days my dad would be too tired to take me to soccer" that isn't what we are dealing with when we are talking about the PD family. We're talking about an entire childhood marked by untreated mental illness / PD  and what that did to us.

The older I get, the more admiration I hold for people who get themselves Out of the FOG. It is not easy, it is not well understood, it is intense inner work, and it is a painful process in a lot of ways.

A lot of those people with a PD parent, they are not going to get themselves Out of the FOG. They instead become narcissistic themselves, or they become flying monkeys, or just unhappy, passive aggressive, 'not really fun to be in a relationship with' sort of people.

PD parents create a lot of FOG. I admire anyone who gets themselves out of it, and out of the denial that is rampant in the PD family at the family level. I cleared up my FOG, and it is an on-going practice in a lot of ways. It is about understanding yourself in ways that would make no sense to the FOO that raised you. It is courageous work, and more people will do it if we can encourage them along (I hope!). It is work that never really ends. Would you agree?

The true number of people who are needing to recover from PD abuse is likely quite high. As you said, it could be 50% of people today! I am grateful for the therapists and researchers who provide more and more tools to really understand what recovery is and how to support us in it. And very grateful for this community where people share about their recovery work.

Trees