How do I deal with my Ex MIL?

[Adria]

We moved by my daughter and her family.  She has lived by my ex mil (her grandparents for 15 years while we lived a few hours away).  Ex MIL has one of the those cutsie sweetsie voices that always makes her look and sound innocent.  Over the years ex mil has always referred to my daughter as her daughter, and my daughter pretty much went along with it leaving me out in the cold even on my own birthdays and Mother's day. Ex mil always stepped in my shoes when I would come down to visit my daughter like I was some third party that didn't belong, even upsurping me with my own grandchildren.  It was awful, but I was always gracious to keep the peace.

Well the table is turning.  I knew I took a chance moving by daughter and ex mil in this situation, but my daughter is coming around toward me and our relationship has really blossomed lately.  Even to the point of daughter being somewhat exasperated with her grandmothers demands.

However, I'm having a really hard time knowing where the line is with ex mil.  I've invited ex inlaws over for thanksgiving even while my daughter was out of town.  Had a party for them when their son came to town, etc., I have given them furniture and bought new appliances because they are always in need.  Meanwhile, I'm seeing things along with dh that show ex mil is stabbing me in the back with my daughter, triangulating me with my kids, and dh reminded me that when she was in our home state when my narc sister and father through my son in an institution, she didn't even bother to call me or daughter, along with everyone else involved.  We had no idea he was ill.

The problem is that she presents herself so sweet and innocent and I don't know how to defend myself against her antics. 
I decided through much deliberation not to invite ex inlaws over with my children this Easter. It really stressed me out because I always go above and beyond to keep the peace and show my daughter I have no animosity towards them.  I feel this woman is making a fool out of me, and yet I feel guilty that I didn't invite them this time.  Dh sees all the tricks she plays, and yet in my head I can't seem to realize it all.  I think in some ways I wanted her to be the mother I never had, so I could be nice to her and take care of her in her old age.
She's been calling me a lot wanting to know how my ill son is doing, even though she never called when she knew my family threw him away.  She tells me my daughter doesn't come see her enough even though she never once drive's over to daughter's house.  she complains all the time about their house falling apart and their car dying, yet they don't do anything about it.  Daughter has thrown a lot of money their way as well, and then found out lately that her grandparents have been telling everyone in our home state that my daughter does nothing for them.

Daughter is having a hard time lately with them as well.  One minute she's angry with them. The next minute she's saying they are old and won't be around much longer, we need to be nice to them. They present themselves as caring and nice, but their actions seem otherwise.  Daughter says she's in the middle. I feel as though I'm in the middle and tap dance trying to keep everyone happy.  I guess I would appreciate some thoughts. I've been backing away, but I feel it upsets my daughter that I'm becoming less involved with them.  Dh says, "They are your ex inlaws and nothing more." He is telling me to run like he!!.  I think I just need to get someone's viewpoint away from the situation. When I read my own post it seems so simple, get away from them. Yet, I don't undertsand why I'm struggeling so much with this.

[treesgrowslowly]

Hi Adria,

What struck me when I read your post, was how much I could relate. I also spent years, trying to create the family celebrations, family dinners, family sharing of household items, those sorts of experiences were SO important to me. So when my ILs didn't play their part, by understanding the importance of treating everyone well (i.e. treating me well), it actually took me a really really long time to figure out what to do. I remember being in your shoes, emotionally, for years.

I don't want to depress you and say oh it will take years to figure out. No, no, you have a lot of it figured out already. You know that you are trying to make things work, which is what I think you mean when you say you are trying to make everyone happy.

The 'secret' about families, which isn't a secret at all, but it is something people don't tend to talk about, is that it takes a team effort. A lot of us spend years trying to make family members happy, but really, it's not possible for 1 person to make the whole family get along better. At least that is what I have learned. The family members themselves can end up blaming the 'fixer' in the family, expecting the fixer to fix things that she can't fix. Even when she wants to very badly.

If you are a fixer, you probably tried to fix what was wrong. Your MIL is a person who came into your life, and you tried your best with her. I did that too.

Ultimately, what helped me to pull away emotionally, was to think more deeply about how little some people bring into the relationships they say 'mean so much' to them. Like you said, its all surface niceties with them, below the surface, you see that there is stuff missing with her.

We yearn for the family experiences we didn't get in the past. It is natural. I've spent years working on my own understanding of this. Some families are healthy and some are just not. It won't matter how many things you do to try to make other people happy...when they are not thinking about what you might need - that breeds resentment over time.

It sounds like your MIL does what works for her. Do you see that changing? Realistically? Sounds like your ex DH already knows that she is who she is.

It is hard work but it is worth exploring your grief around what you had hoped for with her. That might release you from the cycle where you expect her to be better at this than she actually is. It might also get you in touch with some anger, which is part of the grieving process. It does sound like you have tried your best for a long time, but your MIL is who she is. I don't know if this helps or not.

Trees

[Adria]

Treesgrowslowly,
I agree with everything you wrote.

Ultimately, what helped me to pull away emotionally, was to think more deeply about how little some people bring into the relationships they say 'mean so much' to them.

You nailed it here. That is what has been swirling around in my mind lately.  I never do something for someone looking to get something in return. However, lately, I have been taking inventory, and she offers nothing to our relationship. Not a thing. But, she will take all day long and barely ever say thank you.
I've read your post a few times, and you have clarified a lot of things for me.  In my mind it should be so simple, but I couldn't put my finger on what was hanging me up.Thank you so much for you thoughtful words.I think I can start to move forward now without feeling the guilt.

[moglow]

Ultimately, what helped me to pull away emotionally, was to think more deeply about how little some people bring into the relationships they say 'mean so much' to them. Like you said, its all surface niceties with them, below the surface, you see that there is stuff missing with her.

I was watching a short video just a little while ago, referring to "candle blower outers," you know, those people who don't pull close to the bright flames to become a part and become brighter themselves, but seem to want to blow them out instead??

Everybody isn't going to want to share our flames and that's cool. It does behoove us to stop and pay attention to those trying to douse the flame. Ask ourselves why, or at the very least think what we need to do to protect ourselves and those around us. Just because it's not openly malicious or violent doesn't mean we have to roll over for it. The insidious gossip and whining will burn me down quicker than anything!

I'd probably start rethinking those invitations, limiting the phone calls and pile on so much gray rock that you bore her to tears so she gives up! Drama drama drama? That's sad to hear. Complain whine? Well. I hope it gets better for you. Complain about others, intrusive questions? Have you talked to them about this? There's nothing I can do, sorry. Anger stomp schnort? Looks like [insert chore here] is done, we'll talk some other time. Cut her off and change the subject, or end the call. Don't sit there for her complaints, be flat emotionless and so uninteresting that she finds some other source.

[Cat of the Canals]

Totally agree with what's been said. Continue slowly and quietly pulling away. Maybe give yourself a refresher on the Medium Chill from the Toolbox. Both for ex-MIL and when your daughter brings her up. That will probably be the hardest part: MCing with your daughter, but you'll be better off if you simply don't engage on the topic of your ex-MIL, I think.

The most I might say to your daughter, if she says she feels "in the middle" again, is to remind her that your relationship with this person and her relationship with this person are separate. You understand and respect that this is an important relationship FOR HER. But you have a different relationship, and that's that. I might even say, "No one should be making you feel like you're in the middle." (Which is a subtle way of saying, "If someone is making you feel that way, it's not me...")

My guess is grandma has been giving your daughter a hard time about the change in the dynamic. If you stay cool and reasonable, I suspect that eventually your daughter will realize all the drama is coming one direction, and she'll get fed up with it.

[Adria]

Moglow,

I'd probably start rethinking those invitations, limiting the phone calls and pile on so much gray rock that you bore her to tears so she gives up! Drama drama drama? That's sad to hear. Complain whine? Well. I hope it gets better for you. Complain about others, intrusive questions? Have you talked to them about this? There's nothing I can do, sorry. Anger stomp schnort? Looks like [insert chore here] is done, we'll talk some other time. Cut her off and change the subject, or end the call. Don't sit there for her complaints, be flat emotionless and so uninteresting that she finds some other source.

Oh, my gosh! Love it.  I'm always such a good listener and so accomadating.  I really like your gray rock answers.  I don't think I could have done it before, but I think I'm to the point now, that I could do this quite easily. 

Thank you Moglow, great suggestions.

[Adria]

Cat of the Canals,

The most I might say to your daughter, if she says she feels "in the middle" again, is to remind her that your relationship with this person and her relationship with this person are separate. You understand and respect that this is an important relationship FOR HER. But you have a different relationship, and that's that. I might even say, "No one should be making you feel like you're in the middle." (Which is a subtle way of saying, "If someone is making you feel that way, it's not me...")

I like this Cat.   I've been pretty cool with my daughter and usually just let her talk, and I can tell she is getting more and more irritated with grandma, but man . . . the other day I just let go on her.  Got so tired of biting my tongue and trying to smooth everything over. I always try to take the high road, but ya know what? I'm 60 years old now, and why do I always have to take the high road? Especially with this woman undermining my relationship with my children.

I really like your comment about "No one should make you feel like you're in the middle." So smooth. And you're right. It isn't me making her feel in the middle.  I never push my daughter either way on holidays or otherwise with her grandparents as we are the ones that moved to daughter's town and are basically on her turf.   We even invited my daughter for Easter last minute in case she wanted to go to grandparents because I didn't want to make her feel pressured.  She came to our house. We were pleasantly surprised, and we had a really nice day.  It's just too bad that even though we didn't invite ex-inlaws, we still felt guilty for it all day.  I guess doing something different is always uncomfortable, but I'm sure it will get easier.  I just don't understand why there isn't enough love for everyone.  My ex-inlaws sure know how to look a gift horse in the mouth.  What grandma doesn't seem to understand is that probably eventually, she will be the one sitting alone.

[treesgrowslowly]

This is all such good advice. I like what Moglow shared about the people who blow out the candles when they get close. Wow, what a good visual for how it feels to be around people like this. The really do suck the air out of the room!

Cat of the Canals I totally agree, it is tricky to manage what is going on regarding grandma and daughter, and you are right, grandma is probably making daughter feel bad for the change in dynamic (only emotionally mature people actually take responsibility for changes in their relationships, the rest of them just blame others).

Adria, I take your point that you are a good listener. I have no doubt. Empathic people who are kind and sensitive, are good listeners. We just are. The problems come when there are people like this in our life...they take and take from us.

One exercise I have done to help myself with the Out of the FOG practices (staying Out of the FOG is a lifestyle in my opinion) is that I imagine how I would feel, if that other person was able to visit, or call on the phone, and listen to me with the same kindness, patience and attention that I've given them in the past. Is this person really trying to understand you? Do they really listen to you well and you feel truly heard by them? With a PD, the answer is no.

It usually unleashes some grief about the stuff that I wish that person did, but that they don't really do. Not reliably. Listening to one another is important to any healthy relationship. Without it, you've got a lopsided relationships where one person is doing the listening.

I also pondered the fact that most people don't really listen very well. So when a PD in my life finds me, and I listen to them, some part of them is like "wow I've won the jackpot! Someone is actually paying attention to me!" The thing is, we don't see that PD's other 23 hours of the day- most people are tuning them out to some degree. It is those of us with the most empathy who are accommodating and good at listening - just like you said in your post. So that could be why they seek us out - they beg for attention from everyone, but empathic people tune in, like only empathic people can. We are good at listening. We want harmony in our relationships, and we want them to learn how to listen to us.

This is because we believe pretty deeply in reciprocity. That is what I think. So we do the things we want other people to do. We listen to them because we want to be listened to. We are kind, because we want them to be kind. Etc...we believe in reciprocal relationships, and we spend a good chunk of our life, giving to people that we want harmony with. We don't want drama, we want harmony.

When there's no harmony, no 'peace' in the family, we are the ones who can be found trying to broker peace between family members, until we realize that we are being drained of our energy because well, these are the people who blow out the candle as soon as they get close to it.

The more candles you light for them, the more candles they blow out!

We are dealing with adults who are set in their ways. You can teach little children how to take turns, but I am not sure you can teach someone who is set in their ways, to start taking turns when they have been living x years as a narcissist.

We need to meet other adults who already know how to take turns with us. That is what we are missing. That is what women like your ex-mother in law will probably never understand.

In your first post you said she presents herself as sweet and innocent. Yes, I suspect that strategy has 'worked' for her, for a long long time in her own life. It works FOR HER. It might not work for anyone except her!

After a while, I think we just have to accept that adults who don't want to change, will not change. We have to limit our time with them, and forgive ourselves for giving them so much of our time and our listening etc..which is what you are doing here. This is the work of living Out of the FOG.

Trees

[Adria]

You are right, Trees,

I don't do things for people to get something from them, however, like you said, a little receprocity would be nice once in awhile.

And,

The more candles you light for them, the more candles they blow out!

you and Moglow make a good point.  It's almost like they sit back and watch you squirm trying to right the wrongs they keep perpetuating. 

I saw a video on mean people the other day, and they were saying that mean people keep you off balance. Every time you are with them, you go home scratching your head wondering if you said something wrong or didn't do something right, etc. They answer the phone sometimes and blow you off other times, etc., always leaving you guessing and out of balance, so we try to keep doing things to put the relationship back into balance, however, they will never let that happen.

I think my ex-mil has deep seated contempt for me because I divorced her alcholic, drug abusing, wife beating, unfaitful son. And, also that she wants my daughter to be the daughter she never had with me completely out of the picture.  I guess I thought that if I killed her with kindness, maybe we could have some semblance of a relationship. But, I'm realzing that probably isn't what she wants.  She most likely never thought we would move here, but we did.

Yes, she does present as sweet and innocent with that high pitched cutsie voice of hers.  It has worked for her on my daughter for decades.  Up until now, I've never said a bad word about ex mil to daughter except that grandma isn't as sweet and innocent as she pretends to be.  I think that is what made my daughter look a little deeper.

fter a while, I think we just have to accept that adults who don't want to change, will not change. We have to limit our time with them, and forgive ourselves for giving them so much of our time and our listening etc..which is what you are doing here. This is the work of living Out of the FOG.

It's amazing how when you think you've come Out of the FOG with your own family, and you are doing well, that you have to learn to keep coming Out of the FOG with even more people in your life.  Hopefully someday things can just be nice, but it seems many people don't want it to be that way. 

[treesgrowslowly]

Hi Adria,

I don't really know how to do that whole insert quote thing. But the things you wrote about the video you watched on mean people - that is spot on.

As I spent more and more time NC and in recovery work, reading lots etc...I came to understand these things more and more. There is one theory out there - in a lot of different self-help books etc... that explains why people keep us off balance like you describe. It is because they are not actually capable of managing us if we are 'on-balance'.

If we were to be able to look into their life, we would probably see that they don't know how to do some of the things we are doing.

This requires a bit of belief in subconscious thought and action. When someone throws us off balance with their antics, how much of it is 'conscious'?

Suffice it to say that we can probably assume that these mean people, are off-balance in their own lives, but that might be concealed from us - we may not see it when they show their public self (their high pitched voice self).

I think that there is something inside them that resents us for not blowing out candles - for not behaving more like they do.

If we accept that people do what they know (which is a commonly held belief in a lot of psychology / self-hep books / videos), then if they are using a high pitched (false) voice, they won't really understand the women around them who don't do that. All they know, is that using this false voice, is what they do. They may not even know why they do it (a lot of people need a therapist's help to really discover that stuff).

You can't really talk with them about this - and ask them , so why do you do this, when you're x years old? Because you won't really get much of an answer. They don't reflect on why they behave this way, and they will have their own rationale (excuse?) for their behaviours.


It was hard for me to learn this, but I was told to consider the idea that there are people who WANT to keep us off balance. They can't support us when we are balanced - we are being direct, and patient, and confident and we know what we need and we have boundaries etc etc... this stuff threatens them.

And it depends how much we believe in the subconscious. On some level, do they know the truth? That if they are going to be expected to behave - to be honest, and direct and have healthy boundaries, that they won't be able to do it? Do they know that consciously or is this all at the subconscious level? I have wondered this for years. I know someone who speaks in a high pitched voice as well as part of her public persona. It is so false to me. I could never do it in my own life. Suffice to say, she never understood me, and when I started to push her to 'grow up' (she was older than me) she pushed back by going into full waif mode! Did she do that consciously or was it something she did, without understanding why she did it?

You understand a lot about your ex MIL, more that she will probably ever understand about you.

Thankfully, there are people out there who don't want to throw us off balance like that all the time. For years I have reflected on some of these things before I could believe them myself. For example, a lot of psychology articles etc..will remind us that someone with healthy boundaries themselves, will respect other people who have healthy boundaries. They won't try to blow out the candle, because they know enough about themselves, they don't need to go around blowing out the candle and being mean.

Yeah, it is true that we sometimes feel we are coming Out of the FOG all over again with people, but thankfully, we get better and better at knowing what is for us, and what isn't for us. We get better and better with practice - most of the stuff going on for people has nothing to do with us at all. It is their circus and their monkeys...

Trees

[Adria]

Wow! Great post Trees.

Everything you wrote I feel is spot on.  I think my ex mil has had a miserable existance with her husband, just as I had living with her son. Only, I got out. She didn't.  I feel on a subconcious level she acts the way she does because her life has been very out of control, and in a lot of ways it is her way of self preservation.  I understand that, and therefore tried to be kind and understanding with her.  Didn't work.  She has literally put herself in some kind of fake world, a Disney Land of sorts, I think to survive.  Kind of sad.  Sometimes, I think she takes it out on me because I had the courage to get away and she didn't.

that explains why people keep us off balance like you describe. It is because they are not actually capable of managing us if we are 'on-balance'.

Almost a type of jealousy maybe. They are messed up, so they are going to mess us up to put us on a level playing field?

I think that there is something inside them that resents us for not blowing out candles - for not behaving more like they do.

This is an interesting concept, and I believe it to be true.  I think it has something to do with us being true to ourselves, and they cannot be because maybe they don't even know who they are.  I've never been a game player. Not good at it. Don't know how. Possibly to my own detriment. But, I never felt the need to play games. Takes to much time and energy. I am a straight forward person and never try to hurt people, so no need to play games. People can make life so hard and complicated if we let them. Getting too old for it.

I sure appreciate all the time and effort you took for these posts.  You validated a lot of thoughts and questions that have been swirling around in my mind for a long time. Everyone's posts here were wonderful and helped clear things up for me. I think I was caught between wanting and hoping things could be one way, and having to face the facts that they are not.  Learning I can't fix everything like I was expected to all my life.  Harsh reality, but one that will most likely, in the long run, make my life easier. Like you said, "Their circus, their monkeys."