What is the appropriate way to handle a child trying to gaslight you?

[gfuertes]

To be clear:

A) My ex is a sociopath.  The ultimate solution to me hating his behaviors (like gaslighting) was to leave him.  Our son (14) is really a great person, overall - empathetic, and I have no reason to think he has a PD.  But whether he's just being a teen, or copying behavior his dad models, on occasion my son does things (like gaslighting) that flood me with reminders of dealing with his dad, and I find it hard to respond in the calm, logical, constructive way I try to handle parenting issues, normally.  I feel emotional, trapped, angry, panicky, and either I parent badly in that moment, or I walk away and say we'll discuss it later, and thereby I fail to handle something at the time it really needs to be addressed.

B) I'm not sure I'm using "gaslighting" properly.  Occasionally, my son will state one set of facts, or one position; then later (a week later, or later in the same conversation) he will state a conflicting fact or position, because new circumstances (or new points made in the conversation,) make his new statement work better for him.  But he's not "changing his mind", or remembering something new, or having his memories cast in a new light.  He'll insist he never said the first thing, and that I have a problem with my memory.

This morning, he did this over something relatively unimportant, something he wanted to do after school today.  He made several shifts - not only changing the info he gave me last week, but then changing what he said he wanted to do, such that at one point in the conversation it didn't even make sense why we were talking, if he never actually wanted to do what he'd talked me into giving permission for.  Then he changed back.  And it was never, "Well, I'm not really sure *what* I want to do," but, "This is what I've said all along.  There's something wrong with your brain, if you think I said something different.  You always remember things wrong."

Eventually I sounded emotional, angry and punitive, and I am not pleased with myself about that.  However, I also want to be able to address that it's OK to change his mind, or not be sure - or even defend that he doesn't want to do what I want him to do - but he needs to own that, not change his tune to fit the moment... then deny that's what he's doing, by trying to make me think I'm crazy.  How do you address that - while your kid is doing it - without getting upset about how frustrating it is?  (Especially if it reminds you of an ex, who went to extremes with that behavior??)

[JustKeepTrying]

gfuertes,

I'm not here to offer advice but hear it as well.  This has happened to me frequently with my children - all grown - and I have no idea how to handle it.  Other than to point it out like you suggested in a gentle manner - which is so hard because the behavior is so crazy making.

I do believe that they learned this from my xOCPDh.  He did it and when they did it - he encouraged it and jumped on.  To the point that I thought I was loosing my hearing and my mental capacity.  Like I really considered for a while that I needed to be put into a care home.

[Call Me Cordelia]

In my experience this is just a thing kids do. Rewrite history, gaslighting, not recognizing they have changed their minds, etc. are all indicators of emotional immaturity. Of course children would be immature. While that behavior certainly needs guidance and correction, it’s expected and not necessarily a cause for freaking out. A lot depends on age here, too, which you don’t mention. A lot of these behaviors can also be congruent with stuff like ADHD, where they are more emotionally immature than one would expect for their age.

I would worry a lot when I would see my kids do these manipulative things that seemed like my parents’ shenanigans. I think the big difference is I don’t let it work for them! They will learn a different way.

I found a lot of the toolbox techniques helpful even with kids. “I always wanted to go ice skating for my birthday!” “Really? I remember you asking for bowling.” “No! I hate bowling!” “Hm.” (Silence.) State it once and let it drop. Is that the sort of interaction you’re having?

It can’t hurt to bring it up at their regular pediatrician appointment if you are concerned.

[gfuertes]

...I thought I was loosing my hearing and my mental capacity.  Like I really considered for a while that I needed to be put into a care home.

Well, that's validating, in terms of how frustrating the behavior is.  But I'm so sorry for your experience!  I can only imagine if I were still with my ex, and he and our son teamed up about issues.  Thankfully, most of my parenting issues get to be just between my son and me.  I am sure we will discuss this after school and largely resolve it (until next time.)  I just hate being upset with him before school, sending him off with a dark cloud over his head, and feeling like I said things, or acted in ways, that I can't erase, only apologize for.  And it also detracts from whatever point I later make (calmly) about his behavior.  Naturally, a teen will think in the back of his mind, "Yeah, well she didn't behave well, either!"

It is so hard to try to do things right for your kids, in hopes they won't be screwed up as adults, while you are simultaneously trying to heal from things that screwed you up.

[gfuertes]

...While that behavior certainly needs guidance and correction, it's expected and not necessarily a cause for freaking out...

That's exactly what I mean.  I consciously remind myself all the time that the problem is that my ex acts like a middle-schooler in many respects, NOT that my middle-schooler acts like one.  (He recently turned 14.)  That reminder goes right out the window in situations like this morning, and I am trying to figure out what to do, inside myself, to keep that from happening.

I found a lot of the toolbox techniques helpful even with kids. "I always wanted to go ice skating for my birthday!" "Really? I remember you asking for bowling." "No! I hate bowling!" "Hm." (Silence.) State it once and let it drop. Is that the sort of interaction you're having?

Yes, it is.  Reviewing the toolbox techniques is a good idea.  Letting things go is not my strong suit, when my instinct is to point out that they're happening, and smooth them out.  That would have been better, this morning.

[JustKeepTrying]

Sooo, like I said your post is so on point with me.  I have a spontaneously planned trip in two days with my DD - who is in her late 20s.  I brought it up with therapist in a session that must ended - so all of it is very fresh with me.

Here are my therapists suggestions -

point out that it's ok to change your mind; state I want to understand your perspective and I am open to questions if you want my perspective.  State this over and over in different ways in a calm and gentle voice. Also, state that a I don't have to agree but I honor your view and thank you for sharing it.

And she enforced with me that their perspective doesn't have to be the truth but only what they are seeing/feeling/doing at that moment in time.  She said that working these types of statements and questions build a healthy dynamic and relationship.

Sooo, I hope this helps.  Your post really helped me.

[LemonLime]

...I thought I was loosing my hearing and my mental capacity.  Like I really considered for a while that I needed to be put into a care home.

Well, that's validating, in terms of how frustrating the behavior is.  But I'm so sorry for your experience!  I can only imagine if I were still with my ex, and he and our son teamed up about issues.  Thankfully, most of my parenting issues get to be just between my son and me.  I am sure we will discuss this after school and largely resolve it (until next time.)  I just hate being upset with him before school, sending him off with a dark cloud over his head, and feeling like I said things, or acted in ways, that I can't erase, only apologize for.  And it also detracts from whatever point I later make (calmly) about his behavior.  Naturally, a teen will think in the back of his mind, "Yeah, well she didn't behave well, either!"

It is so hard to try to do things right for your kids, in hopes they won't be screwed up as adults, while you are simultaneously trying to heal from things that screwed you up.

Awww gfuertes, I just need to say.....
Your words made me tear up a bit, because I (and every one of my mom friends who are willing to admit it) feel this way frequently.   Like we've ruined our kids in some small or big way.   That we have wrecked their world, and that it's all our responsibility.   Oh yes, being a mom is so very very difficult for those of us who care so very much about our childrens' wellbeing.   Like, I'm not totally sure if I knew how many sleepless nights I'd have worrying about what I did and said.....would I do the parenting thing again?  Well yes, I know I would but still.   Nothing wrenches the heart as much as seeing a crestfallen look on the faces of our loved ones and wondering what part of that we need to own.

My good friend and I talk about this frequently, as she has 2 adopted kids who are nearly grown and one has PD-ish type behaviors.  She's a great mom.  My kids are perhaps more typical (I do have a PD sib) but still one of them is quite manipulative and the other is just garden-variety difficult teen.   We are both physicians and we feel like we should know what to do, but the truth is we have been caught off guard, just like you, so many times.   I have finally come up with a sort of formula for myself.   If I'm triggered, I give myself permission for a time-out.  Hopefully not one that is more than a few minutes but sometimes it's a whole day because of circumstances.  When it's a peaceful time I approach said child and ask if we can talk.  I start by apologizing for not being able to speak with them earlier, when the incident happened.  I have several times admitted briefly as to why the discussion threw me off-guard.  "I notice about myself that when I someone tells me something that I remember very differently, I feel worried/concerned and sometimes that comes off as angry. That's why I took a time-out.   But you deserve to have a good discussion about this with me".
Then go from there.   My kids have been quite understanding about this.  About me being human.  They remain quiet and look as though there is thought happening.

As far as your teen's "gaslighting".....I'm no expert in this.   I do believe it's very important to address it gently, as CallMeCordelia said.   Don't let it go, but don't beat it into the ground.   I like the idea of addressing it, and then "mike drop"
I do believe that the reason my sib has PD-like behaviors is that my parents did not address her dysfunction when she was a teen.  No consequences.   So now in middle age she is understandably quite confused and angry that I am imposing consequences.

I'm not a child development expert but I think by 14 your son can take more responsibility about what he remembers, if that makes sense.   He likely does remember what really happened and is hoping you don't.   Call him out consistently and gently.  We all need pushback for behaviors that are not healthy.

At family dinners my hubby and I try to make a point of recalling times in the distant and recent past when we have screwed up, and talk about how silly/embarrassed/angry we felt.   And how we dealt with it with the help of friends, mentors, therapist, or whatever.   How we are all human and we don't like looking silly and we don't like being wrong.  I think this is a good way to connect with kids.   And we are not afraid to make up details if we can't remember, or even exaggerate a scenario for good effect.  It's about teaching them that we make mistakes too and that we've lived through it.

You're a good mom.

[Poison Ivy]

I don't know whether this is the official distinction, but I distinguish between (1) lying that a person engages in to get something for themselves or to get themselves off the hook; and (2) gaslighting, which is lying that a person engages in with the goal of messing with the brain of the person to whom they're lying. Gaslighting is behavior engaged in by person A with the goal of making person B doubt person B's memory, judgment, self-worth, and mental health. Here's one resource: https://www.verywellmind.com/is-someone-gaslighting-you-4147470

[gfuertes]

@LemonLime,

Thanks for that great response!  <3

[square]

That would push my buttons, too, and DD has done it a few times before.

She is 16 now. When she was 14 she and I were having some conflicts but it's much better now - so here's some hope it's just the age.

I don't know more than anyone else, but here are some things I decided to do that I think worked out.

1) I don't force her to back down. If she does something I don't like, I say something like "changing your mind is fine, blaming me for it isn't" but I don't make her admit she did it, make her apologize, try to convince her she was wrong, etc. I find when her emotions/anxiety are high, the walls go up and she'll defend to the death, but if I just state my truth and don't force anything, when she calms down later I think she can admit to herself what she did a little bit, and over time her behavior matured without me being a perceived threat to her.

2) I trained myself to let go of trying to control her thoughts and feelings. It wasn't easy, I was aghast at some of the things she had the nerve to feel upset about. So behavior only, not thoughts. Where this applies is that in this circumstanxe I would be caught up in how she could THINK I was to blame. I'd be trying to figure out how the logic worked or just WHY. But whatever is in her head is hers, not mine. It's her behavior only that I get to put a boundary on, and in this case the behavior is the blaming out loud. The difference is subtle but important, I'd address what she SAID but leave her alone about her thoughts.

3) She does not calm down well when she feels under threat or pressure (and your son seemed to feel anxious about figuring out his plans). I have not found a way to deescalate while engaging with her if emotions get high, but she calms down quickly when we seperate (though her anxiety wants to RESOLVE THIS NOW and does not want to cool off - but I enforce it and it works). Would it help to cool off and try again later with your son?

[square]

Oh, I thought of one more point.

4) I decided to keep a long-term outlook. Just saying "changing your mind is fine, blaming me for it isn't," isn't likely to change our kids that day. I previously worried that if I didn't "resolve" bad behavior "today" it would never be fixed. But first, none of us are perfect and our kids won't be either. All we can do is the best we can do. And second, those calmer lessons may sink in over time. This is just another outlook that helped me to stop struggling with her, which was backfiring. I think the trust between us is higher as a result of me accepting she is her own person, flaws and all, and letting her see me as a guide rather than a controller. So with that dynamic she doesn't have to fight me.

[Poison Ivy]