New phase with MIL drama

[mustard_seed]

Hey everyone--
So I've re-opened the lines of communication with my husband about MIL & FIL. I felt it was time, as I was feeling stronger and more grounded. And he has been seeing and talking to them more recently. I felt that it was important for our marriage/unity to discuss.

MIL is asking when I will be seeing and talking to them again. Says that their feelings have been hurt by me, that I have said many hurtful things over the years and have done a lot of damage. Neither MIL or FIL is taking responsibility for the things they've said and done. There is no acknowledgment of her harassing behavior since our wedding. It's a total denial, blame-shifting, scapegoating thing happening.

My husband seems to be in the fog again, somewhat. Says that his mom wants us all to go to a family counselor to resolve all of this. Even though he's shown major hesitation in the past when I've asked him to go to counseling for our relationship, he says this could be a good solution. Says if we are all going to hash it out, wouldn't it be nice to have an objective mediator in the room? He wants peace, resolution. But he also admits they haven't respected any boundaries we've tried to set. That they don't show accountability for their negative words or actions and the effects on us. So, maybe repair isn't possible after all. He seems to have some wishful thinking, but also some realistic thinking. He says he's told her he doesn't know if we will be open to doing something like that, and in any case, definitely not any time in the immediate future. He's told her we're both very busy right now and won't be available for the next month or so.

I told him it's a pretty firm "No" to family counseling for me. I just said I think our focus needs to be on our marriage, our communication. Not on "fixing" things with his parents. And I didn't go into more detail than that. I didn't know how to word this without being hurtful, but based on MIL & FIL's past actions, I have no reason to believe this is a sincere attempt at reconciliation. I think it's some kind of manipulative ploy, either to cast me as the selfish scapegoat who is being unreasonable for not going, or a bluff because she knows I won't do it. Or maybe she thinks I will go but she can smear me to a therapist and "win" somehow. I read a lot of past posts here on the forum about therapy with PDs and really strongly believe this is a NO for me. But he rarely reacts well to it when I try to figure out others' intentions, so I just didn't focus on all of that.

I also told him that I would very much like us to start a family, but that I am scared about how all of this drama with his parents would impact our marriage, our parenting, and our child(ren) should we begin that process without clarity and unity. I loved what Bloomie and others have said on here; I told him I believe marriage is the two of us in a circle, and that if other people respect that circle, they are welcome to enter. But if they disrespect either of us or our marriage, then they are not welcome inside the circle. He seemed to really understand this and agree. And somehow when we talk about our future and a family, he seems to take this all more seriously. (BUT I don't want that to give me false hope that he would handle it well... I know it's complicated).
*Edit: Okay I didn't explain the circle thing well here. Maybe I should have said people can interact *with* us and our marriage, when they respect the circle and boundaries around our marriage. I hope that makes better sense?

There have also been some troubling things happening that are causing me to think there's covert harassment going on. I have strange items showing up in my mail, random cars in my driveway at weird times of day, and my husband is getting phone calls from people he hasn't heard from in a long time who are connected to MIL. He's been avoiding her texts and calls, telling her he is busy. I'm wondering if the combination of my NC (and MIL & FIL are blocked on social and phone) and my husband's distance is causing an escalation of some kind in her. Am trying to talk him into security cameras for our property. He mentioned a camera when the mail thing happened, but has walked back from it a bit. But it can't hurt, right?

Am gaining such a sense of clarity by spending time here. Even though it's hard, and my guilt/fear/obligation is definitely triggered by the "family therapy" and possible covert harassment, I'm staying the course on NC.

Am not so sure about the new therapist though; she is steering me towards reconciliation even though I've clearly outlined the abusive behavior for her. I've put in an inquiry with another trauma-certified therapist and will see if that's a better fit.

Praying for mine and others' peace, sanity, equanimity and clarity tonight. <3

[engineer31]

Mustard_seed, the situation you describe sounds very familiar. I dealt with narc abuse from my MIL for years. In the beginning I didn't really know that's what it was (I was pretty young) and for the most part I feel like I had never been around a narc before so I didn't know. She would constantly try to "one up" me if I was sad about something, gaslighted me, lied to me and turned me into the SG of the family. I went NC with my FIL about 1.5 years ago. Literally have not had a single text to him or spoken on the phone. It's been just over a year with my MIL since any form of communication with her. But for DH he continued to have slight conversations here and there even after I stopped talking to them. They would text him random questions out of the blue every few weeks to make sure he was still responding (and like a good son, he would). The final straw for him, I believe, came when his brother and wife told us everything MIL and FIL had been saying about us behind our backs. Slandering my name, saying DH was only with me because I'm the primary caregiver and once he graduates college he will leave me, the list goes on. Around 10 months ago he put an end to all communication with them. Told them we would be taking an extended break from them because of the triangulation, them not taking responsibility for their actions, etc. They continued to try and reach out to him at first. Even sent me a birthday card and us an anniversary card  The absolute only thing they have shown they care about is how they appear as grandparents on social media. Before we both went NC they would visit 1x, MAYBE 2x/ year. Even though MIL doesn't work and could come if she really wanted. They expected us to do all the travelling which I finally put my foot down on because we have 2 dogs and 2 kids.

I definitely agree with the "Hard No" for counselling with your MIL. Honestly, it might benefit for you and DH to go and work through everything to get on the same page. If MIL is already treating you this poorly, it will only get worse when you decide to have children (IMO). I'm glad you are searching for a new therapist. I don't believe the one telling you to reconcile is giving you good advice. Unless the narc has a major personality change and change of heart, there is no reconciling. They do not believe they have done anything wrong (clear from what you said about them not taking responsibility), they thrive on being the center of attention and any "drama" they can cause. The fact that they cannot respect your boundaries, tells me they won't respect them when you decide to have children. They will start labeling your kids as THEIR grandchildren. I suggest talking to your husband about your concerns and maybe starting counseling together to establish clear boundaries. Hugs to you and good luck!

[Cat of the Canals]

I definitely agree with the "Hard No" for counselling with your MIL. Honestly, it might benefit for you and DH to go and work through everything to get on the same page.

My thoughts exactly. He won't do couples counselling but he'll consider counselling with HIS parents????? Hardest of nos.

Maybe there are valid reasons for it, but who the hell goes to family counselling with their adult parents? In my experience, it is always a ploy in some way (at least with a PD in the picture). In this case, I think you're right that MIL will play the victim and make it out that you're the one causing all the problems. And if your own therapist is any indication, the counsellor will likely be pushing for "reconciliation."

My brother told me a while back that he was thinking of suggesting family counselling with our PDmom. Again, it was a ploy. He knows she'd NEVER agree to go herself (she is perfect and has no flaws, duh), so he thought he could "trick" her into going under the guise of "improving their relationship." I had to explain to him that she would never agree to any type of counselling because that would be admitting that something is wrong.

[mustard_seed]

Mustard_seed, the situation you describe sounds very familiar. I dealt with narc abuse from my MIL for years. In the beginning I didn't really know that's what it was (I was pretty young) and for the most part I feel like I had never been around a narc before so I didn't know. She would constantly try to "one up" me if I was sad about something, gaslighted me, lied to me and turned me into the SG of the family. I went NC with my FIL about 1.5 years ago. Literally have not had a single text to him or spoken on the phone. It's been just over a year with my MIL since any form of communication with her. But for DH he continued to have slight conversations here and there even after I stopped talking to them. They would text him random questions out of the blue every few weeks to make sure he was still responding (and like a good son, he would). The final straw for him, I believe, came when his brother and wife told us everything MIL and FIL had been saying about us behind our backs. Slandering my name, saying DH was only with me because I'm the primary caregiver and once he graduates college he will leave me, the list goes on. Around 10 months ago he put an end to all communication with them. Told them we would be taking an extended break from them because of the triangulation, them not taking responsibility for their actions, etc. They continued to try and reach out to him at first. Even sent me a birthday card and us an anniversary card  The absolute only thing they have shown they care about is how they appear as grandparents on social media. Before we both went NC they would visit 1x, MAYBE 2x/ year. Even though MIL doesn't work and could come if she really wanted. They expected us to do all the travelling which I finally put my foot down on because we have 2 dogs and 2 kids.

I definitely agree with the "Hard No" for counselling with your MIL. Honestly, it might benefit for you and DH to go and work through everything to get on the same page. If MIL is already treating you this poorly, it will only get worse when you decide to have children (IMO). I'm glad you are searching for a new therapist. I don't believe the one telling you to reconcile is giving you good advice. Unless the narc has a major personality change and change of heart, there is no reconciling. They do not believe they have done anything wrong (clear from what you said about them not taking responsibility), they thrive on being the center of attention and any "drama" they can cause. The fact that they cannot respect your boundaries, tells me they won't respect them when you decide to have children. They will start labeling your kids as THEIR grandchildren. I suggest talking to your husband about your concerns and maybe starting counseling together to establish clear boundaries. Hugs to you and good luck!

Thank you for sharing your story. Yours is one of those that gives me hope... it sounds like your NC led to some pretty quick shifts for you and your FOC. But I'm sure it wasn't without its pain and difficulty & I'm sorry you were ever the recipient of narc abuse. It is awful!

When you went NC, did you explain why? Was it in response to something in particular that prompted NC? I ask because my MIL is now (just as of last night) insisting that I apologize. She's been pushing for me to talk to her and FIL, "work through things" and reconcile. And now she's telling my husband she can't sleep because she's crying all night about this "estrangement" and how much I "hate" her.  It's triggering self-doubt about I handled everything. I kind of ghosted after an attempted confrontation of sorts did not go well. I'm now thinking about whether I should send a letter or something. (But the JADE tool-- don't justify argue defend or explain- also resonates, so... I don't know!)

I wish my husband would consider couples counseling. I really feel like this first year of our marriage is so important, especially with thinking of starting a family. I don't think further enmeshment (what I envision family counseling with MIL & FIL would be like) is what our marriage needs right now. But I'm really trying to honor the fact that he's separate and sovereign. I don't want to just repeat the cycle of enmeshment we've both been in. I told him again last night that family therapy with his parents is a NO for me. Thank you for your support on this. Feel so much less alone in it!!

[mustard_seed]

I definitely agree with the "Hard No" for counselling with your MIL. Honestly, it might benefit for you and DH to go and work through everything to get on the same page.

My thoughts exactly. He won't do couples counselling but he'll consider counselling with HIS parents????? Hardest of nos.

Maybe there are valid reasons for it, but who the hell goes to family counselling with their adult parents? In my experience, it is always a ploy in some way (at least with a PD in the picture). In this case, I think you're right that MIL will play the victim and make it out that you're the one causing all the problems. And if your own therapist is any indication, the counsellor will likely be pushing for "reconciliation."

My brother told me a while back that he was thinking of suggesting family counselling with our PDmom. Again, it was a ploy. He knows she'd NEVER agree to go herself (she is perfect and has no flaws, duh), so he thought he could "trick" her into going under the guise of "improving their relationship." I had to explain to him that she would never agree to any type of counselling because that would be admitting that something is wrong.

I know... I was upset about how open to therapy he suddenly was. It's hard not to think that his mom's needs have been coming first for a long time.
I think couples or individual (for him) therapy would be a better option. Solo therapy could help him with insight and tools on the whole thing anyway, as well as help with *our* relationship. I'm holding my tongue though. All I said last night when we talked again was that I'm not open to going to therapy with his parents. He said he might go with them anyway. (???) My sense is that he is holding out hope that a therapist could somehow "fix" his mom.

Obviously I don't know your brother but that sounds a lot like a peacemaker or rescuer role he's playing. I admire how much acceptance you seem to have around the whole thing, where you seem to realize it just is what it is and you can't fix it. But also you state your position and thoughts clearly. I need to get better about that. I often hold back because I don't want my husband to feel controlled, but really, he's an adult. I can say what I think and he is free to disagree. Thank you for the feedback, yet again. I really appreciate your perspective... very calm and thoughtful.

[mustard_seed]

Since I posted, there are more updates with MIL/FIL drama!!

-Husband called his mom yesterday; apparently he had been trying to text her and make mother's day plans (I had no idea), but she hadn't been replying. When he called, she yelled at him, saying that people should speak face to face or on the phone and that she doesn't want to text anymore. Says she can't sleep, is crying all night because "Mustard seed hates me" and she can't bear this "estrangement." Says she needs to know NOW if we are going to family therapy and whether Mustard Seed plans to apologize. (The apology would be for my standing up for myself, but she has successfully shifted the narrative and is now the victim of my meanness).

-After my husband got off the phone, FIL texted him, saying that he was mistreating an elderly woman with early stage dementia. Dementia? This is news to us! (That he chose to share in a text message??!) and that if he can't say kind things, he needs to leave her alone.

-The upside of all of this seems to be that my husband has clarity again. Says his parents appear to be intentionally pushing buttons, emotionally manipulating him, and using tactics to get what they want. (Yes, darling, they are). Says they've done this his whole life. That his mom is a hypochondriac and likely self-diagnosing with dementia. He withdrew and ignored for the rest of the night.

-But, then, MIL called again today! Has had a personality change over night. Is now soft, gentle and humble. Would love to spend mother's day with him, if the invitation is still available. Husband seems relieved, triumphant that holding his ground "worked." My sense is that he thinks he can navigate this all perfectly and that some kind of sanity and healthy relationships will emerge.

-I'm clearly way more focused on all of this than on my own well-being, thoughts and feelings. Am so triggered that I'm considering whether I ought to apologize to them. It was SO hard to stand by and hear the way they guilted him and not try to rush in and do what I could to make them stop hurting him. I think they know me better than I realized.

-I really need to focus on self-care and try to calm my brain. Sanity and role-modeling and all of that.

[treesgrowslowly]

Hi mustard_seed,

Holy IL drama! I am sorry to hear you are going through this.

Sounds like he goes in and out of awareness that his mom is emotionally manipulative. He still wants a mom who doesn't really exist - and that's what I'm seeing in what you posted here. He wants to fix her. We get that here. There is a strong strong pull to fix our parents so that we can have the parents we've always needed. It's FOG.

Do what you can to focus on yourself. I feel for you. I know what it is like to have a MIL who can only deal with things on her terms. You know what's up. Like you said, this is enmeshment in his FOO, with his parents. Of course they are playing the victim card. Very familiar to those of us who have devoted years to living Out of the FOG. People like this love being the victim of our boundaries. Stay strong.

Hope you are doing some self-care right now.

Trees

[Hilltop]

Oh Mustard Seed it is so hard and I feel for you, it isn't easy to stand back and be calm in the face of all of this.  My MIL did exactly the same thing.  The same tears, the same blame of me that I hate her, that I'm breaking her heart, that she is beside herself with hurt.  It was so hard to stand back and not say anything when DH was letting me know that MIL was blaming me for all of it and that DH was listening.

But you know what, staying calm, being rationale and focused on yourself and DH is crucial at this stage.  Do not engage.  This is bait she is throwing your way.  Bait to get a reaction and as soon as you say anything she will point at you and say "see Mustard Seed is the problem".  She wants you to apologise so she can point at you and say "see it really was Mustard Seed that was in the wrong, she is to blame".  The therapy is nothing to do with her and her son, you keep getting asked to go along as your MIL is framing it, that this is all your fault, all on you and so the therapy is for you to help you learn how to behave in their family (lol).  She is framing it that you go along to therapy and you will learn how wrong you are and then bam everything will be roses and sunshine once you learn how it's all been you all along.  There is no self awareness or reflection from your MIL at all.

Don't you find it interesting that she went from berserk to calm overnight.  One tactic didn't work and when she didn't get that reaction from her son she was able to control herself and suddenly be all sweet and calm.  Take a deep breathe and take yourself out of the chaos.  Look as an observer, its hard but if you really look at her actions you will clearly see the manipulation.

I would not be talking or sending letters or apologising.  Give yourself time, plenty of space until you see it all clearly.  Your MIL unravelling is her business and she is responsible for  calming herself.  Her emotions are not your problem or your responsibility. She is only upset she is not in control.  I rode this stage out with no contact and it did eventually calm down. 

Jerry Wise (youtube) has this saying of a tennis court, where you see her as on her side of the court, you on your side and a net in the middle.  You only need to deal with your side of the court.  You don't cross over the net to hit the ball from both sides.

This includes from your DH's side as well.  Whatever is happening between your DH and his parents, it doesn't help to jump into a triangulation and try to rescue your DH from his parents.

It's really hard and you are doing amazing.  Keep calm and be supportive of your husband.  Try to keep MIL out of your conversations.  If your DH wants to go to counselling with MIL then just say that you hope it goes well.  My guess is that without you there, counselling won't happen.

Your self care is really important at this stage.  You are not doing anything wrong.  Giving yourself time and space to heal and to contemplate how to deal with this relationship with MIL in a healthy manner is really important.  MIL needs you around so she can keep pushing your buttons and keep you off centre.   Keeping you close means she can easily manipulate and upset you whilst if you are not around she can not get at you.  It's interesting that when you were not around she turned on your DH.   

I gave myself as much time as I needed and it really did help in disengaging myself from MIL and her behaviours.  Being around MIL and constantly being bombarded with new hurts I just couldn't breathe or recover before the next thing happened, I was constantly thrown off balance and couldn't see or think clearly.  This time is for you, don't feel pressured or guilty by other people wanting you to step back into the midst of the chaos.  You will know when you are ready to be around your MIL again.  You are as important as they are, your self care is as important as anyone else.  You don't need to ignore your self needs to make them feel better.

Take care, you really are doing great. 

[Cat of the Canals]

Obviously I don't know your brother but that sounds a lot like a peacemaker or rescuer role he's playing. I admire how much acceptance you seem to have around the whole thing, where you seem to realize it just is what it is and you can't fix it. But also you state your position and thoughts clearly. I need to get better about that.

He definitely falls into the peacemaker role often. We all do. It's what my mother trained us to do.

I must admit that a lot of it is hindsight... I'm not nearly as clear or calm "in the moment." Sometimes I do hold back and say nothing because I worry that whatever I say will push my brother further into "fix it" mode. Other times I'm not able to articulate very well what I'm feeling/thinking and that can be very frustrating and lead to some JADEing.

As for the latest developments... holy hoover, batman. Just the dementia thing alone screams, "You have to come back into the fold and apologize to your mother because she's ill." And then when that didn't work (and probably your MIL realized she'd crossed a line when she yelled at him), she reverts to Nice Mode to pull him back in. This is not change. It's the same pattern many abusers use. Probably one she's used all his life, he just doesn't realize it.

Did she mention her meltdown the next day? If she's like my PDmom or PDmil, she completely glossed over it and pretended it didn't happen. If there was an apology it was likely a classic faux-pology, utterly devoid of true contrition or understanding. PDs often have the attitude, "I said sorry so now you have to forgive me." And then all the lingering bad feelings from their blow-up are to be swept under the rug and never spoken about again.

[engineer31]

Mustard_seed, the situation you describe sounds very familiar. I dealt with narc abuse from my MIL for years. In the beginning I didn't really know that's what it was (I was pretty young) and for the most part I feel like I had never been around a narc before so I didn't know. She would constantly try to "one up" me if I was sad about something, gaslighted me, lied to me and turned me into the SG of the family. I went NC with my FIL about 1.5 years ago. Literally have not had a single text to him or spoken on the phone. It's been just over a year with my MIL since any form of communication with her. But for DH he continued to have slight conversations here and there even after I stopped talking to them. They would text him random questions out of the blue every few weeks to make sure he was still responding (and like a good son, he would). The final straw for him, I believe, came when his brother and wife told us everything MIL and FIL had been saying about us behind our backs. Slandering my name, saying DH was only with me because I'm the primary caregiver and once he graduates college he will leave me, the list goes on. Around 10 months ago he put an end to all communication with them. Told them we would be taking an extended break from them because of the triangulation, them not taking responsibility for their actions, etc. They continued to try and reach out to him at first. Even sent me a birthday card and us an anniversary card  The absolute only thing they have shown they care about is how they appear as grandparents on social media. Before we both went NC they would visit 1x, MAYBE 2x/ year. Even though MIL doesn't work and could come if she really wanted. They expected us to do all the travelling which I finally put my foot down on because we have 2 dogs and 2 kids.

I definitely agree with the "Hard No" for counselling with your MIL. Honestly, it might benefit for you and DH to go and work through everything to get on the same page. If MIL is already treating you this poorly, it will only get worse when you decide to have children (IMO). I'm glad you are searching for a new therapist. I don't believe the one telling you to reconcile is giving you good advice. Unless the narc has a major personality change and change of heart, there is no reconciling. They do not believe they have done anything wrong (clear from what you said about them not taking responsibility), they thrive on being the center of attention and any "drama" they can cause. The fact that they cannot respect your boundaries, tells me they won't respect them when you decide to have children. They will start labeling your kids as THEIR grandchildren. I suggest talking to your husband about your concerns and maybe starting counseling together to establish clear boundaries. Hugs to you and good luck!

Thank you for sharing your story. Yours is one of those that gives me hope... it sounds like your NC led to some pretty quick shifts for you and your FOC. But I'm sure it wasn't without its pain and difficulty & I'm sorry you were ever the recipient of narc abuse. It is awful!

When you went NC, did you explain why? Was it in response to something in particular that prompted NC? I ask because my MIL is now (just as of last night) insisting that I apologize. She's been pushing for me to talk to her and FIL, "work through things" and reconcile. And now she's telling my husband she can't sleep because she's crying all night about this "estrangement" and how much I "hate" her.  It's triggering self-doubt about I handled everything. I kind of ghosted after an attempted confrontation of sorts did not go well. I'm now thinking about whether I should send a letter or something. (But the JADE tool-- don't justify argue defend or explain- also resonates, so... I don't know!)

It's funny you ask that. I actually tried to have many conversations with my MIL about the way she was treating me and our marriage. I asked her MULTIPLE times to come to me with any problems she has with me and we can talk through them and work them out together. She always agreed but never pulled through. She would constantly complain to my husband about things I did/said (mainly when I stood up for myself). But then when I confronted her about them, she would deny she ever complained to my husband. Gaslighting at it's finest. I told her personally, to stop the triangulation and getting my husband in the middle. I told her I was tired of her being disrespectful and still thinking she could have access to out kids that I carried for 9 months. She, too, would play the "I can't stop crying" card ALL THE DAMN TIME. Which is why everyone looks at me as the outcast now. They only see HER crying and hear everything that I've done so terrible. SHE is the victim. When my husband finally put his foot down, he texted a group message with MIL, FIL, and myself and gave a few general reasons (the same I had told her before, ie triangulation, disrespect, etc) and they acted stunned. His dad acted like I had brainwashed him and told him to call when he was thinking on his own. So, I totally get all of what you said. My NC came with years of the abuse and spending almost 3 years in counseling working on myself and processing EVERYTHING that has happened with my IL's. Every single "blow up" fight that we have had. I got to realizing that I do not have to continue to put up with the abuse "for the sake of the kids". My mental health is important and if I'm putting myself in these situations with my IL's where I am not comfortable, my mental health suffers and then I feel like I'm not giving my kids 100% because I'm focused on what I did wrong and what I did to deserve their treatment. I apologized many times, all very heartfelt and sincere, only for my BIL's wife to come back to me and tell me MIL was going around saying my apologies were "half ass". I tried my best not to get anyone else involved (my husband, my FIL) but after hearing everything they have said to my husband about me, I KNOW I made the right decision. At first, we both questioned whether or not we were doing the right thing, but after almost a year of us BOTH being silent, we know it's for the best.

We actually just got news that MIL is going to be in town in about 2 weeks and we both believe she will try and stop by. My DH has made it very clear that he will tell her to leave if that happens. She is very manipulative and will do anything to see HER grandkids. I'm very anxious about this encounter that might not even happen. I don't know if any of that helps, but I hope it does.

[mustard_seed]

Hi mustard_seed,

Holy IL drama! I am sorry to hear you are going through this.

Sounds like he goes in and out of awareness that his mom is emotionally manipulative. He still wants a mom who doesn't really exist - and that's what I'm seeing in what you posted here. He wants to fix her. We get that here. There is a strong strong pull to fix our parents so that we can have the parents we've always needed. It's FOG.

Do what you can to focus on yourself. I feel for you. I know what it is like to have a MIL who can only deal with things on her terms. You know what's up. Like you said, this is enmeshment in his FOO, with his parents. Of course they are playing the victim card. Very familiar to those of us who have devoted years to living Out of the FOG. People like this love being the victim of our boundaries. Stay strong.

Hope you are doing some self-care right now.

Trees

Thank you treesgrowslowly, for reading my (very lengthy) posts. And for giving your insight on these dynamics, too. It really helps to have that feedback from others who've experienced something similar.

I like what you said about ~devoting~ years to living Out of the FOG. I feel like joining this forum has given me a sense of commitment to *clarity* and even though it is really tough right now, that is helping me a lot.

I did manage to focus on self-care... my mind needed something to chew on, so I did some reading on non-PD/mental health topics. (Spirituality, fiction/fantasy). And sleep. Everything feels a little better after a night of decent sleep.

[mustard_seed]

But you know what, staying calm, being rationale and focused on yourself and DH is crucial at this stage.  Do not engage.

This ^ and really everything you said is resonating with me <3
Yes... I need to step out of the chaos, give myself time to find clarity, and then from a calm and wise place, decide how best to move forward.

I wish I had better words to express how thankful I am for your thoughtful & wise feedback! I just feel relief reading through what you said, knowing that you've walked a similar road and things calmed down and you found clarity.

I feel that my version of reality is valid, thanks to you and everyone else here.
That it is OK for me to step back and focus on my own well-being, rather than try to fix anything or rescue anyone.

Thank you from the bottom of my heart <3 Hopefully I am able to have that wise, calm voice for others some day and give back.

[mustard_seed]

I must admit that a lot of it is hindsight... I'm not nearly as clear or calm "in the moment." Sometimes I do hold back and say nothing because I worry that whatever I say will push my brother further into "fix it" mode. Other times I'm not able to articulate very well what I'm feeling/thinking and that can be very frustrating and lead to some JADEing.

I can so relate to this ^ and honestly find myself either holding back or JADEing a lot too. But I still admire your calmness & clarity, even if it's after the fact!

And omg the hoovering! It was just like you said with your PDmom & PDmil, there was no apology... no mention of the day before and her meltdown. Just a new tactic in its place, the 180 shift to Nice/Feeble "Old" (she's in her 60s) Lady (waif?) who would love to spend any scrap of time with son that he could spare.

[mustard_seed]

It's funny you ask that. I actually tried to have many conversations with my MIL about the way she was treating me and our marriage. I asked her MULTIPLE times to come to me with any problems she has with me and we can talk through them and work them out together. She always agreed but never pulled through. She would constantly complain to my husband about things I did/said (mainly when I stood up for myself). But then when I confronted her about them, she would deny she ever complained to my husband. Gaslighting at it's finest. I told her personally, to stop the triangulation and getting my husband in the middle. I told her I was tired of her being disrespectful and still thinking she could have access to out kids that I carried for 9 months. She, too, would play the "I can't stop crying" card ALL THE DAMN TIME. Which is why everyone looks at me as the outcast now. They only see HER crying and hear everything that I've done so terrible. SHE is the victim. When my husband finally put his foot down, he texted a group message with MIL, FIL, and myself and gave a few general reasons (the same I had told her before, ie triangulation, disrespect, etc) and they acted stunned. His dad acted like I had brainwashed him and told him to call when he was thinking on his own. So, I totally get all of what you said. My NC came with years of the abuse and spending almost 3 years in counseling working on myself and processing EVERYTHING that has happened with my IL's. Every single "blow up" fight that we have had. I got to realizing that I do not have to continue to put up with the abuse "for the sake of the kids". My mental health is important and if I'm putting myself in these situations with my IL's where I am not comfortable, my mental health suffers and then I feel like I'm not giving my kids 100% because I'm focused on what I did wrong and what I did to deserve their treatment. I apologized many times, all very heartfelt and sincere, only for my BIL's wife to come back to me and tell me MIL was going around saying my apologies were "half ass". I tried my best not to get anyone else involved (my husband, my FIL) but after hearing everything they have said to my husband about me, I KNOW I made the right decision. At first, we both questioned whether or not we were doing the right thing, but after almost a year of us BOTH being silent, we know it's for the best.

We actually just got news that MIL is going to be in town in about 2 weeks and we both believe she will try and stop by. My DH has made it very clear that he will tell her to leave if that happens. She is very manipulative and will do anything to see HER grandkids. I'm very anxious about this encounter that might not even happen. I don't know if any of that helps, but I hope it does.

I hope my asking that was OK and didn't dredge up awful memories for you. I only asked b/c I have been questioning, you know, "Did I handle this right?" etc. and wondering how others navigated the NC phase.

But that being said, it's really helpful to read how you handled it. I've been thinking about this from the perspective of this most recent blow-up, but when I read your story I remembered ALL of the times over the past 10 years I've tried to communicate my feelings/needs with MIL & FIL. They've told me I'm too sensitive, that I'm imagining things, that I'm making things up. And then when that didn't work and I persisted or I asked husband to intervene, they've blame-shifted and played the victim, like your MIL. So... ok, maybe I didn't handle this most recent blow-up in the most graceful way, but I have made a lot of effort over the years, and my stepping back should come as no surprise to anyone who was paying attention.

The thing is, I keep thinking about this like I'm dealing with healthy, respectful humans who follow the rules of engagement. But they don't follow the rules. And so if I follow the rules, I get manipulated and trampled. Someone's tag line on here - I can't remember whose but it really makes me think-- "the only way to win is not to play."

I'm so glad your husband stepped up and set a hard boundary and went NC with MIL&FIL and supported your mental health. And that he says he will not tolerate her intrusiveness if she tries to impose on you when she's in town. I hope she doesn't try anything. It's awful to have to even anticipate that it *could* happen though-- I get that.

The way they are about your kids ("their" grandkids) sounds exactly like what I imagine my MIL&FIL would be like. I can only imagine how difficult that would be to deal with. It scares me enough to think about not even going through with it! But I think I need to take things one day at a time for now.

I'm glad you've found a way to prioritize your FOC with your husband, focused on your well-being and the kids, who need their mom to be happy & healthy more than they need dysfunctional and abusive g-parents in the picture, IMHO.

[engineer31]

I hope my asking that was OK and didn't dredge up awful memories for you. I only asked b/c I have been questioning, you know, "Did I handle this right?" etc. and wondering how others navigated the NC phase.

But that being said, it's really helpful to read how you handled it. I've been thinking about this from the perspective of this most recent blow-up, but when I read your story I remembered ALL of the times over the past 10 years I've tried to communicate my feelings/needs with MIL & FIL. They've told me I'm too sensitive, that I'm imagining things, that I'm making things up. And then when that didn't work and I persisted or I asked husband to intervene, they've blame-shifted and played the victim, like your MIL. So... ok, maybe I didn't handle this most recent blow-up in the most graceful way, but I have made a lot of effort over the years, and my stepping back should come as no surprise to anyone who was paying attention.

The thing is, I keep thinking about this like I'm dealing with healthy, respectful humans who follow the rules of engagement. But they don't follow the rules. And so if I follow the rules, I get manipulated and trampled. Someone's tag line on here - I can't remember whose but it really makes me think-- "the only way to win is not to play."

I'm so glad your husband stepped up and set a hard boundary and went NC with MIL&FIL and supported your mental health. And that he says he will not tolerate her intrusiveness if she tries to impose on you when she's in town. I hope she doesn't try anything. It's awful to have to even anticipate that it *could* happen though-- I get that.

The way they are about your kids ("their" grandkids) sounds exactly like what I imagine my MIL&FIL would be like. I can only imagine how difficult that would be to deal with. It scares me enough to think about not even going through with it! But I think I need to take things one day at a time for now.

I'm glad you've found a way to prioritize your FOC with your husband, focused on your well-being and the kids, who need their mom to be happy & healthy more than they need dysfunctional and abusive g-parents in the picture, IMHO.

Thanks mustard seed. Definitely didn't bring up any awful memories. It took a lot of processing with my therapist but I think I've worked through just about everything. I can speak my story without it being triggering like it used to be. Now, if I learn of other things that have happened, that I didn't know about before, that's when I start getting triggered. Probably because I haven't processed that new thing.

You sound a lot like me. I kept trying to convince myself that these people are normal and I would end up apologizing over and over. Eventually I realized they're not normal.