Overcoming N Family Rules and Self Love

[bee well]

Jerry Wise has a series on you tube called "Keys to Overcoming Narcissistic Family Rules." It is divided in parts. In "Keys to Overcoming Narcissistic Family Rules 4-6" he does a great talk on self love.

I like this quote:
"Love and respect from others is the icing on the cake. It's not the cake, it's the icing on the cake."

If the topics interest you, I recommend watching the series.

[treesgrowslowly]

Thanks for posting about that Bee Well.

This is my first time watching a Jerry Wise video. I like his style. The first message in that video is resonating with me today - in an N family, making mistakes was shameful.

After I went NC, I then went on to devote years (and years, and years) trying to create my own support system / community / circle of concern / replacement family (whatever it gets called, it all comes down to wanting to belong). Nothing that I did during that period, succeeded. It was a failure. I made huge mistakes in terms of who I let in, who I spent all my time with, who I tried to befriend during those years.

Making peace with this has been really hard! I think a few Jerry Wise videos might be very helpful as I think about this!

Thanks!

Trees

[bee well]

Hi trees,

I'm glad you like Jerry Wises' video. I like his style too.

The thing about making mistakes being shameful resonates. It's really ingrained. And we are talking about minute mistakes that are definitely not the end of the world. It's such a waste of time how much energy gets put into that mindset.

Rebuilding a community, etc.  is where I am, and it is hard. (The support on this forum, and the variety of other resources out there, are invaluable in that process.)

After going NC, there was a domino effect. It's amazing how that happens.

It's going to take a while but I guess that's ok. It takes most of us quite a while before we get to no contact. I have decided there's not hurry to rebuild as I don't want to end up where I was before.

Thanks for your response, Trees.

[NarcKiddo]

Thank you for the recommendation - I had not come across him before. I have watched the first in the series and I will be watching more. I like him and he talks good sense.

[treesgrowslowly]

Hi all,

I'm reviving this older thread to share some thoughts on another video from Jerry Wise.

Big thanks to Bee Well for the original post about his channel!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGEO9wSM2r4

"The family self" isn't a term I've heard much before, but wow, the concept sure is familiar.

For me, what hits me first about this video is that when I met my ILs, I was still totally in my "family self" around them AND I wanted them to see my "real self". (this was over a decade ago).

In hindsight, I can see that I brought my "family self" into the new relationship with my ILs, and really had pinned all my hopes on the idea that they would not want me to self-negate, self-abandon etc... as Jerry describes in this video.

I assumed that my ILs would applaud me, celebrate me in being my "real self" (I was no longer a teen or young person, I was in the process of developing my real self, and could have really used their support at that time). I had no idea there was just as much FOG in my new relationships as there had been in my FOO. The 'family self' was the self they wanted - not the 'real self'. How sad this was to realize.

I suspect others here can relate. Either in terms of FOO or in terms of IL's or that feeling of wanting those new post-NC relationships to be safe places to develop or "real self" as described by Jerry in this video.

Now I know that my real self is not welcome in my FOO, nor in other spaces either. If people are in the FOG, they are not going to want to be with the real self. Period. No matter what I want for them, they have to want it for themselves (i.e. I can't codependently make them want a relationship with my real self...they have to want that).

Thoughts from others? If you watched the video, what did you enjoy about it?

Trees

[bee well]

Hi All, It's been "a few"  since I have posted in Out of the FOG. It feels like forever...I hope you are are doing well as can be these days.

Trees, I'm glad you like Wise's work. This is an interesting video you posted re: family self vs. real self. Thanks for putting it up.

I really like the way Wise puts a lot of  things we talk about in the forum into a family systems context. I also enjoy Wise's calm demeanor and the fact that he doesn't take things overseriously (doesn't veer into drama, takes things matter-of-factly. Things "just are" for him.).

I can relate to what you wrote here:

"For me, what hits me first about this video is that when I met my ILs, I was still totally in my "family self" around them AND I wanted them to see my "real self". (this was over a decade ago).

In hindsight, I can see that I brought my "family self" into the new relationship with my ILs, and really had pinned all my hopes on the idea that they would not want me to self-negate, self-abandon etc... as Jerry describes in this video.

I assumed that my ILs would applaud me, celebrate me in being my "real self" (I was no longer a teen or young person, I was in the process of developing my real self, and could have really used their support at that time). I had no idea there was just as much FOG in my new relationships as there had been in my FOO. The 'family self' was the self they wanted - not the 'real self'. How sad this was to realize."

I agree, this  is very sad to realize, and can be a real disappointment. I'm sorry you went through that, Trees. When I watched the video, and listened to Wise talking about "going along to get along" I thought about that and the other 4 points that have factored into many relationships, even friendships, and in some work situations. I spent many years doing what he talks about to survive, trying to fit in, unaware of my fawning behaviors.

It stood out when you said you thought your IL family would "celebrate and applaud" you for being your real self.

With my MIL I initially had a fantasy (I've recently realized this) that if I was just friendly, nice enough, maybe things would be different (than they were with my Mother and FOO.) I wanted to replace the "family" I never had.

When I first met my MIL, although I was still fawning, I was a lot more open in what I would reveal to her. She was nicer in the beginning. Then I  became part of "her family" and the mask came off. (Here I emphasize that being part of the family doesn't mean fitting in. No one fits in unless they toe MILs line)  I wonder if for any of you it was different  in the beginning as well, as opposed to when you and the Ils had learned more about each other, and you had also learned more about yourself?

It's hard to wrap our minds around the fact that, for some of us, our FOOS are essentially gone, and irreplaceable. Fortunately all is not lost and we can construct better families, but what "we had wanted" isn't coming back. (I think instead a lot of us are working on becoming who we might have naturally grown to be had we not been enmeshed in "our" uN or uPD family systems)

Aside from some public encounters, the relationship with my Inlaws is the most narc-y/toxic one that remains (one too many). In the past I have done a lot of "going along to get a long" there. Now my silence and "uh, huhs" and "oh reallys" and "how interestings" are more a way of deflecting as I know I will never "fit in" and don't want to anymore! Occasionally I will go along to get along but I notice it when I fawn (much less now fortunately.) I choose carefully when to speak upand am mostly focussed on keeping my Peace. (Speaking up=when it's necssary to defend dignity or overall well being).

Now, knowing I have choices and working on boundaries, things are somewhat better. But I have accepted that with ILs (and probably with a lot other people I encounter) I will never fit in. My visits with them usually involve witnessing one drama or another. :=(

I think about the video as it relates to friendships and realize that for me its not so much about a perfect fit anymore rather than mutual respect and similar values.

What Wise says about disappearing really resonates. When we feel we have to make ourselves smaller or feel ourselves disappearing that is a huge red flag to take a closer look at the relationship and why we are responding in that way.

That's some of what the video brought up for me.

Any more thoughts on this?

[treesgrowslowly]

Hi bee well!

What a great post. Yep yep yep.

I've had to learn that because of my crappy FOO, a better relationship with my ILs would have really helped me with recovery work Out of the FOG.

No one can do our healing work for us but I had therapists point out that having toxic ILs just made things harder. And harder and harder.

You asked about whether others found that things got worse over time. Yep!

Isn't that sad. That they start out looking optimistic and then a few years later, it's the same soupy mess of fog, just different people this time. Ugh.

It has taken me a lot of work to realize that there was no place for my authentic self in their system. And that this was on them.

Just like there was no place for my authentic self to belong in my FOO.

Makes me wonder how many people were lucky enough to find any family , FOO or IL, where their authentic self is actually welcomed and seen.

I agree with you. I'm at that point too where I accept that there is no family system for me.

I have also noticed that what I thought were people who legit wanted to become friends,  were just people who only liked me if I was in fawn mode.

I'm very committed to giving myself space from all of that. Much better to look at ways to thrive without the barrage of other people's drama anymore. I'm my authentic self when I'm alone.

I think that at least for me, the trauma and broken hopes of finding a place in a family is heavy and it does me no good to try to figure out new people anymore. If I met my ILs today it would be quite a different story with how I'd deal with it all. I'm not closing the door on anything but I am also done with putting my energy into any new people.

Living in the FOG of the false self for so long took its toll for sure.

Most people want things I don't want to give anymore. Wish I had learned that decades ago. So much given away to the wrong people.

This forum is a space where I feel more seen than in other places.

Recovery is just that much harder when you have a new group of people in your life who want your false self not your authentic self. It is sad how many of us had high hopes for good relationships with our in laws that ended up being more FOG.

I am just so grateful for all the people here who post about that battle to live and love our authentic self.

Trees

[bee well]

Hi Trees,

Thanks for your reply. I appreciate it.  It's validating to know that we aren't alone but I wish there weren't so many (or any ) people going through similar issues.

I'm sorry it got worse with your Inlaws, and that it was revealed to be a sort of continuation the the FOO dynamic. I'm also sorry you had to carry that weight for so long. I can see you have been working through it for a long long time and the energy spent there, It appears, has left you tired at times and in need of clear space to allow you to be healthier in your recovery. You seem to be very aware of how your surroundings affect you and I think that's a positive thing going forward.

There's nothing wrong with wanting to be alone. (That's obvious, but I affirm this because I think in the world of "social," alone time has been really devalued.

Your re-opening of this thread was very timely for me.

I have am now working towards a deeper level of acceptance of the FOG that surrounds contact with the ILs. They are FOGgy and contact with them means walking through the FOG. I'm able to keep it at bay when it's just phone calls but the visits are just not enjoyable any more, and I have to do a lot of planning around them.

Last night we talked and I got all upset, then realized I was in the FOG (in little kid mode, actually) Mostly the first two, because MIL doesn't manage to make me feel guilty any more. I had to talk myself down after the call, remind myself that she takes too much of my power in this moments, and this creates tension between DH and I even when she is not around.

I have decided to look at the visit as a job with steps 1) preparation and self care+brain defrag 2) carrying out the task +observation+ self protection 3)reflection and self care+brain defrag. We'll see how that goes. I'm not fooling myself that I can master this, it's just harm reduction

This time MIL's friend is coming so that should diffuse things some...We really enjoy her company but she'sFOGGY too, so...

Hubby is following tall of them hem back to their house as he often does. This time I am not going. The ultimate would be to not go EVER but I am not ready to deal with the fallout from that. I accept that I am not ready.

As far as new people goes, I am also very careful, as you are,  about who I am willing to develop relationships with at this point.

A while back we went out with some new people and one "half" of the couple was lovely and mellow and the other stirred a metaphorical  toxic soup all evening, It was the third time. We don't want to push away the more easygoing of the two but will not be attempting to cultivate anything more than a superficial relationship with them as a couple. (It took 3 days to recover from the energy drain, they were that heavy!)

I think it's important to be in touch with what we want at any particulat point, but also to be aware that we can do that without, as you say (permanently) closing the door.

There's another Jerry Wise video you may have seen called "Calmness is Everything!" I think I will be re-watching that as I focus on the MIL previsit tasks, one by one.

Peace to you, Trees. Thanks again for all you write.

[treesgrowslowly]

Hi Bee Well,

I am feeling so grateful that there are spaces and people with whom to learn / reflect on these things with.

Ok, so I googled "Calmness is everything" by Jerry Wise and saw, whoa its over an hour long. I thought to myself "Good for Bee Well for watching that whole thing!"

Being impatient (lol) I go and click ahead randomly to minute 17:00. And he starts to talk about 3 types of anxiety and I'm intrigued. Right now I've been feeling anxiety come up for me more often lately, and I've been through this cycle enough times now to know that I may or may not really ever know what the original ' triggers' were that brought this new cycle on (main signs lately are poor sleep and headaches when normally, I don't have those very often anymore).

What he says in that short 3 minutes I watched just nails it! Systems anxiety - yep.

SO many visits are with people who are not in a good state emotionally, and we pick up on it. As we teach ourselves to be Out of the FOG, we see and feel these things, whether we want to or not! And we know how we are feeling inside, and we realize we feel how this person is taking power from us. Like you describe.

After all these years, I've come to believe that a lot of MIL's out there , want something from their DIL's that they don't even understand. Only the DIL will ever learn and see what's really going on. The MIL, in her FOG, won't see it.

I'm not talking about the MIL's out there who treat their DIL's well. I'm glad they exist. I'm talking about the ones who don't know how to treat their DIL's well. The ones who make life harder for their DIL, and who can't (won't?) see it.

A lot of MIL's seem to think some version of "well I"m just being myself, and DIL just needs to accept me for who I am!" No further examination is done on their part, and over time, the relationship is strained. Does the MIL know how to repair it? Nope. And from what I've seen, the DIL feels it - the MIL enjoys being in denial about how strained this relationship really is. 

There are a lot of us DIL's who really wanted our MIL to be the mother we never had. I definitely went through that very painful emotional process of realizing this.

If only MIL could have had those traits we were looking for as DIL's.

For me, the process has involved a lot of time and patience, and recognizing that "I"m grieving what I wanted to experience with you, and in the process, I see you more and more as a person who has no idea what's going on for me". And when I read your post Bee Well, I wonder if that is what you are also more and more aware of - this MIL you've got, she's a woman with her own backstory and script that she's following in life. Her being 'herself', drains the heck out of you.

You now plan lots of self-care around the phone calls with her. You know it's on you to manage this, since she is probably never going to see how dysfunctional she is.

Like you said, you feel her 'taking too much of my power in these moments'. No doubt she does. Her 'energy' isn't really being processed by her (that is what self-awareness is in my opinion, the ability for someone to deal with their own thoughts and feelings first, before flinging them out onto others).

If she really could do some of the things you know how to do (self-reflect, manage anxiety and anger, her own disappointment, understand herself, see how she is actually treating people, etc...) you wouldn't feel so drained after a phone call with her. It wouldn't feel like you just spent time with an 'energy vampire'. It wouldn't feel like something you have to recover from.

My heart goes out to you as you are in this situation where you know you'll feel drained by her, and you know to take steps for self-care before and after.

I am shocked and dismayed at how old I got before I realized that it's not normal to feel drained after phone calls with people!! That it's possible to feel energized after talking to someone, not drained. Most of my life, I took this as a given - it was normal for me. It was common in my world - and coming Out of the FOG, I learned what you are describing - that these visits are just not pleasant, and if I'm honest, they rarely ever were. It was the hope that someday they would be, that kept me hooked. It was the hope that someday - these people would grow up!

And I see that Jerry Wise has a video called "Letting everybody around you grow up" wow that title resonates too!

I really believe that you are going to find yourself, 2 or 3 or 4 months from now, feeling a lot better after any interactions with her. From what I've learned from Jerry Wise so far, it is that process of becoming unmeshed instead of enmeshed. This process for me has been easier outside of family systems.

Practicing this stuff was easier with non-relatives first. Years ago there was someone in my life and every time she talked to me, she brought me all of her negative thoughts that were on her mind. Quite the learning process for me - at first I thought I could make our conversations a little less negative by bringing more positive into the conversation. Eventually I saw how committed she was to her script, and eventually whenever I saw her and she started to talk to me, I just let her say what she wanted to say, and recognized how little concern she had for how she came across. She didn't care about how negative she was and how that might affect someone who is just going about their day until she comes along.

Either she couldn't see it, or she did see it, and didn't care. Either way, after a few years, I saw her negativity was hers, and I did what you describe. I had a plan so that I spent the conversation just reminding myself that her negativity, is all hers (and she'll take it with her when she leaves lol). Whereas my life has my stuff going on, my script, and my thoughts (none of which she was actually interested in).

This was much easier to practice with someone who wasn't in the family system. Like learning to ride a bike on a smooth road first before having to manage hills and rocky terrain! Maybe you have also been doing this self-protection with others, and that with MIL, it's "next level"?

I also (cynically) believe that the stronger we get, the less we refuse to sponge up the negativity and drama people are bringing to us via these phone calls, visits etc...the more they want us to. In their childish state, they are like children. We don't want them to take our power, they pick up on this, so they double down on efforts to push it onto us.

I hope you are not going through that (its more common with controlling people than avoidants) but if you are, your efforts to protect yourself will pay off, as you will see how nice it is to feel your own strength to reduce their capacity to mess with you each time they try to. Jerry Wise explains that process really well from what I've learned from him so far!

Wishing you much peace and strength as you keep working on this!

Trees

[bee well]

Hi Trees,

Here we are mid week, I hope yours is going well enough thus far.

Thanks for your post. You really nailed it!

I know what you mean about that video- it is very long and I didn't watch it all the first time. There's a lot of info out there, whether online or with all the books, many of which were written years ago and I didn't know existed until recently. Lately I've been trying to slow down and digest it all in parts,  and I do what you do at times. I will go along and watch parts of the long ones. Often relevant stuff "jumps out" at me. Sometimes I go back. We've talked about Pete Walker's books in the past. I often go back to his work when I feel like I need some grounding.

That systems anxiety is really powerful, it can keep us on us autopilot. I think when we catch ourselves we can see that a sign of progress and awareness that keeps us on the path of healing.

About the MILs (and others who project their systems stuff) I have observed what you wrote here as well:

"A lot of MIL's seem to think some version of "well I"m just being myself, and DIL just needs to accept me for who I am!" No further examination is done on their part, and over time, the relationship is strained. Does the MIL know how to repair it? Nope. And from what I've seen, the DIL feels it - the MIL enjoys being in denial about how strained this relationship really is."

That's exactly it. They are just being "themselves." Before DH got less FOGgy he would tell me that  stuff about his Mother (just like I would tell myself the same about her, and so many others, FOO, friends, etc.)

I'll permit myself a little rant: I'm sick and tired of this enably thinking, and tired of playing nice. I have decided that civility is more than good enough. If I can stay civil, maintain my dignity and avoid fawn-behaviour, that's the right track, IMO. It's hard though, because sometimes I want to be warmer with her. But too much warmth doesn't work! I wonder what you think about that.

You wrote:

"There are a lot of us DIL's who really wanted our MIL to be the mother we never had. I definitely went through that very painful emotional process of realizing this."

I agree and my heart goes out to you as well on this one. To grieve the Mother we never had, or thought we had is really hard. Multiply that by two (or more with the friends)The whole thing is really tiring at times.

Which  brings me to this: "For me, the process has involved a lot of time and patience, and recognizing that "I"m grieving what I wanted to experience with you, and in the process, I see you more and more as a person who has no idea what's going on for me". And when I read your post Bee Well, I wonder if that is what you are also more and more aware of - this MIL you've got, she's a woman with her own backstory and script that she's following in life. Her being 'herself', drains the heck out of you."

It is draining and things get better with time. I hope you are right about things getting better down the line. I think it's that two steps forward one step back that can frustrate us at times.

You talk about practicing it out of the family system. I think that might be a less difficult terrain because it's a little farther from home. For me the whole thing with my FOO came up, then it was MIL, then friends, with some overlap. Now "practicing" where ever I can. I'm glad you reminded me about the practicing with people that are not in immediate family though, because I think having that exposure of being bolder elsewhere will help when the MIL storm blows in. Yes, Mother in law is next level. Ugh how many levels are there? 

Yes. MIL is like a child and I don't think she will grow up. Lately there are times that I fell like I am "humoring" her. I don't like that, even if it is easier when I am to tired to deal. I don't know if you MIL is/was childlike, but it sounds like you have some experience with that!

Unfortunately the situation is what you wrote here, which is why so many of us require a plan:

"I also (cynically) believe that the stronger we get, the less we refuse to sponge up the negativity and drama people are bringing to us via these phone calls, visits etc...the more they want us to. In their childish state, they are like children. We don't want them to take our power, they pick up on this, so they double down on efforts to push it onto us."

Yeah, that's what she does. Fortunately I am able to see through it at times, but she still manages to get to me. When she comes here she will find something to try to bring DH and I into that state. Likely something about housekeeping, food, or how unhappy she is. I have decided to resist trying to eliminate the threat by trying to make the house perfect (or please MIL, won't happen.) Good enough will have to do. If she doesn't like it, tough. There's lots of orther important things that need to be focussed on right now. Note to self: keep that though on replay.

I could go on and on about that but again, nothing new there. Thanks for "listening" and sharing your insight about systems anxiety.

Sorry to hear you have been dealing with what you describe here: "Right now I've been feeling anxiety come up for me more often lately, and I've been through this cycle enough times now to know that I may or may not really ever know what the original ' triggers' were that brought this new cycle on (main signs lately are poor sleep and headaches when normally, I don't have those very often anymore)."

It may not make feel better to say this when it keeps coming back, but it is a cycle, and they pass as we are aware of them, and continue to take care of ourselves. Then we can come back with more strength.

What you say about identifying the triggeres resonates. They are very hard to identify, but being conscious of them helps, and sometimes the reason will come to the surface later, some times much later.

I'm glad to hear your sleep and headaches have improved. My gut tells me that's the result of a lot of hard work (working on you), and that's a sign of hope for a lot of us...yea! The "hard work miracle at work."

Wishing much tranquility and strength to you as you continue your path.

P.s I will put Wise's "Letting everybody around you grow up"  on the queue.

[bee well]

P.s.s.: I wanted to comment on this. Trees said:

"I am shocked and dismayed at how old I got before I realized that it's not normal to feel drained after phone calls with people!! That it's possible to feel energized after talking to someone, not drained. Most of my life, I took this as a given - it was normal for me. It was common in my world - and coming Out of the FOG, I learned what you are describing - that these visits are just not pleasant, and if I'm honest, they rarely ever were. It was the hope that someday they would be, that kept me hooked. It was the hope that someday - these people would grow up!"

I know what that shock and dismay is like. For anyone who may be reading this thread and wondering why it took so long to realize this, you are not alone! And it's not normal to feel drained after a phone call! Solidarity to all who are dealing with/have dealt with similar.