MIL in town

[engineer31]

well, it's been awhile since I've posted but some stuff has come up. I've been NC with pretty much everyone for close to 2 years now. NC with my MIL for just over a year. My DH has been NC with his mom and dad for almost a full year. We've blocked them in all aspects of daily life (ie, social media and phone). They can text, but it goes to a separate folder and we don't get notified. They can only leave voicemails. For some reason even if you block someone they can leave voicemails. Anyways, we found out a few weeks ago MIL will be in town sometime today. She left DH a voicemail that was very manipulative and I'm not sure what other words would describe it. it began with something along the lines of "It's me...I'm not sure how I should introduce myself, __first name__? Mrs. __last name__? mom?" and then somewhere down the line said she wanted to meet him to discuss why she was being written off and whether or not she needs to take him out of her will.  DH and I had a long talk about it all last night. He doesn't know how to respond. He said he clearly sees that she has not changed and shows no remorse for anything and did not apologize. He said he doesn't want her to think that there's absolutely no chance in reconciliation, but that reconciliation starts with her changing. (i know that's not going to happen, but I'm not going to try to demolish what hope he has left). I said I would be open to meeting in a public space, but even if change started to happen and MIL and FIL started coming to town more often that I would not want them in our home. Our home is sacred and safe and it took a long time for us to get past arguing about them all the time. I said if they come to town in the future, I would like to take baby steps. meet them in a public restaurant for dinner, meet for an hour in a public park, etc. NOT allow them to just come over to our house and rest. He said that was weird. I feel like I need some assurance, that my boundaries are not weird. That asking that our abusers not be in our home is not weird. I caught him trying to make excuses last night when he said that well, maybe she has changed, it was just a voicemail. BUT YOU CAN HEAR TONE IN A VOICEMAIL. It's not the same as a text.

I'm so anxious today, it's hard to concentrate. I know I don't blame myself anymore for everything that has happened, and it took a lot of therapy to get to where I am today. I wish I wouldn't let her visit bother me. I am so worried she's just going to show up unannounced if DH doesn't reply to her. I can hear her now "well i left you  a voicemail saying i wanted to meet but i didn't hear back from you." DH doesn't think that will happen but I have my doubts.

[Starboard Song]

Bless your heart: stay close to DH and keep him close to you.

I think you are spot on about boundaries. We are at a point where we are so confident in their inability to change I doubt anything would cause us to give them an audience. If you and your DH decide to give her an audience, I support going very slow.

If DH uses his words, and explains to his M directly what is going on, she -- if willing -- can understand. "Mom, you know we've been entirely not in contact with you. I've just explained again, at a high level, why that was. We are willing to try again, but we need to rebuild trust slowly. If being a little closer and a little more trusting this week than we were last week is an improvement you'd value, we can work with you on that basis. If you are not able to respect our need to go slow, it is better that we not try. Shall we try?"

I think you outlined a great pathway, if a pathway is needed. Like dating, you start with things that are brief and require little engagement. Putt Putt golf is better than coffee. A visit to a botanical garden is better than dinner. Appetizers and cocktails at your house is better than dinner. And dinner is better than overnight guests.

If this fails, it needs to do so without having destroyed your peace. If your DH really REQUIRES this for his peace of mind, that deserves as much respect, I believe, as your need for peace from them. I think the worst outcome is allowing this decision to create ANY daylight between you and DH. So you two need to talk about baby steps that are appropriate, showing proper respect to your need for peace (and earned distrust of them), and his need for giving them a chance. Both should rely on this touchstone: what would a healthy human on the other end of this be willing to do to regain a loving relationship?

If she is not healthy, that is her circus and her monkeys.

So much good luck and strength to you and your DH.

[Cat of the Canals]

"It's me...I'm not sure how I should introduce myself, __first name__? Mrs. __last name__? mom?" and then somewhere down the line said she wanted to meet him to discuss why she was being written off and whether or not she needs to take him out of her will.

I don't need to hear the tone of the VM. I mean, holy crap. "I'm not sure how I should introduce myself?" Melodramatic, much?????
And then the second half: Why am I being written off/Do I need to take you out of my will?

This is 100% a financial hoover. She is threatening to take him out of the will if he doesn't "explain" why she's been written off. And you can be sure that no explanation will suffice: only a return to the good old days of her dishing out abuse and him taking it like a good, obedient whipping boy. Do you know how your husband might react if she threatens to write him out of the will when you meet her? Is that something that might goad him into capitulating? Something to think about.

Your boundary that they not be in your home is not unreasonable at all, for the exact reason you stated. And perhaps this would make it more "palatable" for your husband: If things go off the rails, you need to be able to retreat. That is 1000 times harder if they are in your home, because then it becomes a battle of "forcing" them to leave, and that is not a position you want to be in. On top of that, many PDs are on better behavior in public. If you meet in a restaurant, not only can you leave whenever you want, but you can also hope your MIL will try to maintain at least some composure.

[Call Me Cordelia]

Yeah man, yikes that does not sound promising.

" He said he clearly sees that she has not changed and shows no remorse for anything and did not apologize. He said he doesn't want her to think that there's absolutely no chance in reconciliation, but that reconciliation starts with her changing."

That's where we are with my MiL too. It's been... three years now?

You don't go from needing to be NC to inviting her into your home. THAT would be weird, as it denies the reality of the situation. If it's weird not to invite your mother in your home, it's the necessity for such a stance that's weird. NOT you for taking it. Doing a 180 like that would invalidate your experiences that brought you to this point.

I am seeing cognitive dissonance in your husband. He knows who she is. But she is also MOTHER... does not compute. Thus the flip flopping between accepting observed behavior and hope. It's normal. It can be very frustrating for us spouses who are not so attached. But it's a process. It's tough to walk that line between supporting that process and holding your boundaries and putting yourself first, just a little bit. (51% Rule)

[engineer31]

@Cat of the Canals

DH has mentioned before, around the time he went NC, that he's sure he's going to be taken out of the will. He has told me he doesn't care; that we don't need, nor does he want anything from them. She's proven that SIL is the GC and she can do no wrong. We have heard from BIL that MIL has flat out said SIL will be getting their house when they die. We've explained to MIL and FIL MULTIPLE times what is going on and why we went NC; they refuse to listen. I'm not sure if DH is leaning towards trying to meet with her while she's in town to try and explain that reconciliation means repentance on her part. I know he feels like he needs to explain that to her I'm just not sure how he wants to. In my mind, any normal person would take what we have said (ie, the triangulation, gaslighting, blame shifting, victimizing needs to stop) AND ACTUALLY REFLECT AND CHANGE HOW THEY ARE ACTING. If they really cared about being in our lives and their grandchildren's lives, they would change. The fact they we have explained multiple times and then she leaves this voicemail when she gets to town, makes me believe she's really just looking for a reaction out of us. She looking to meet with DH ALONE to try and twist the narrative against me like she always does, cry to try and pull on his heart strings, and play the victim.

I completely agree with the part of retreating. Because in my mind I should not have to run from my own home because they refuse to leave if an argument breaks out. It is MY home, not theirs. I did mention to him before that I believe she will be less likely to throw a tantrum in public. I think he understood that.

[Starboard Song]

I discussed this with my DW and she pointed out a third component of any engagement plan:

Time, Engagement, Constraint

• Brief meetings are better than extended ones
• Meetings with less conversation are better than ones with more
• Meetings you can just end or leave

So, she was adamant that nobody comes into our home until they fully re-earned our trust. And she is right.

[engineer31]

I discussed this with my DW and she pointed out a third component of any engagement plan:

Time, Engagement, Constraint

• Brief meetings are better than extended ones
• Meetings with less conversation are better than ones with more
• Meetings you can just end or leave

So, she was adamant that nobody comes into our home until they fully re-earned our trust. And she is right.

Thank you Starboard! I 100% love and agree with this. "until they FULLY re-earned our trust." My DH and I grew up being taught that family is family and you just put up with them and how they are. suffer for the sake of keeping the peace. I have learned through therapy, this is not healthy. I think DH understands to an extent, but it's going to take more therapy for him to understand fully.

[Starboard Song]

My DH and I grew up being taught that family is family and you just put up with them and how they are. suffer for the sake of keeping the peace.

I think that upbringing is spot on and correct for the normal range of behaviors and personalities. We all might tolerate our racist Aunt Hilda at Thanksgiving because, well, you know. She's our Aunt. And we put up with that guy who smokes all the time. And Cousin Cliff always arrives late in the day on Thanksgiving and it seems kind of rude but.....all right.

And that is sooooo good. It means we are promising each other the stability of family through thick and thin. But there is an unspoken limit we are all aware of. Uncle Dave drinks to much, but if he starts snorting cocaine in front of children it's time to go. Anyone who is commonly violent, for instance, loses the protection of family. And sadly, personality disorders render a small number of people too toxic to tolerate in good health. The fact that so few people understand PDs makes it hard for us to explain our constraints or estrangement. But we know, and we know we are acting with love and kindness for truly, we must apply our own oxygen masks first if we are to be there for those who do reliably love us.

Be good. Be strong.

[moglow]

He said he clearly sees that she has not changed and shows no remorse for anything and did not apologize. He said he doesn't want her to think that there's absolutely no chance in reconciliation, but that reconciliation starts with her changing.

Hope springs eternal, doesn't it. It's hard being NC with a parent, however vile and damaging they may be. Reconciliation wouldn't just mean repentance, it would mean changed and no repeat of [mis]behavior going forward or you'd be right back where you are now.


Those kind of things take time and consistency, and I'd be just as hesitant to invite it into my home. I like having an out if I need one - drive my own vehicle, meet on neutral territory, possibly even have an appointment set for later so there's no need to hang about. It's like a first date, if you think about it. No one in their right mind goes from nothing to long visits, it's a recipe for disaster.

[moglow]

We've blocked them in all aspects of daily life (ie, social media and phone). They can text, but it goes to a separate folder and we don't get notified. They can only leave voicemails. For some reason even if you block someone they can leave voicemails.

Side note:  Because this was an ongoing bone of contention with mommie dearest, I banded with trusted friends to test the options! I've learned that if I block someone on the device itself I get *no notification* of calls/msgs. Their calls went straight to voicemail and I didn't get notification of any messages, while I could still call or text without any problem. [I'm sure it varies depending on the phone you have so you may find other options with yours.] That said, when I blocked through my cell provider/Verizon, not only could I not call or text outgoing, but when they tried to call/text me they got a message from Verizon that "your call cannot be completed" or some such. I rather liked that it was made clear her number had been blocked!

[engineer31]

We've blocked them in all aspects of daily life (ie, social media and phone). They can text, but it goes to a separate folder and we don't get notified. They can only leave voicemails. For some reason even if you block someone they can leave voicemails.

Side note:  Because this was an ongoing bone of contention with mommie dearest, I banded with trusted friends to test the options! I've learned that if I block someone on the device itself I get *no notification* of calls/msgs. Their calls went straight to voicemail and I didn't get notification of any messages, while I could still call or text without any problem. [I'm sure it varies depending on the phone you have so you may find other options with yours.] That said, when I blocked through my cell provider/Verizon, not only could I not call or text outgoing, but when they tried to call/text me they got a message from Verizon that "your call cannot be completed" or some such. I rather liked that it was made clear her number had been blocked!

Moglow, I did not know that! This is good to know!

[moglow]

E, It was a painful learning process, I'm not gonna lie. When the poo truly hit the oscillating object I had to clarify it for my own mind going forward and spent an afternoon/evening testing and retesting [with friends] complete with screenshots to compare notes. MD claimed for years that she doesn't get my texts, even though during that whole period of time we could talk on that phone and she got any voicemails I left.

I truly don't think she has the strength to not respond to some of my admittedly goading texts, and that the texts actually go through but are landing in a hidden folder somewhere. I set up read-receipts years ago - mine to her showed delivered, and date/time stamped list with Verizon show exactly when they were sent. Those records don't lie and users can't alter them.

[bloomie]

engineer31 - I am imagining the pain this voice mail awakens in both you and your DH. I wish you both were not facing this latest message. I am sorry.

What I hear in the message you describe is a whole lot of disdain, threats, and anger.

What I hear in your description of your DH's and your response is that you are not in the same place, yet, but you are still staying connected and talking all of this through in love and support of each other. When you choose each other you win! Every time. Bravo!

When it comes to 'telling' someone something about their ongoing behaviors that are hurting us and causing division and disconnection from us who has demonstrated they do not have ears to hear, a very wise mentor of my own suggested... say it once. Then be consistent in your level of contact and messaging with them going forward. That is what mature, loving behavior looks like.

I have found this to be a really helpful framework to stay within with my own difficult in law family system.

Looking at this from your side of the street only, if you and your DH have been clear with your mil about the issues and consistent in your messaging and level of contact... which it seems you have been, then her message is at best, disonant to the actual reality of the relationship. It is broken. Mil has made a mess of it, seems to be unwilling or unable to clean up that mess, and is still posing as if she is in control. She is not.

A question to you both would be.. is this behavior and this kind of message something you want to validate in some way, confront and use as a catalyst to a larger conversation, or ignore as inappropriate and move forward with your good and happy lives?

You and your DH choose who, how, when, if you open the gate to your lives and who you invite into your garden. If someone is unsafe, you keep that gate closed because of the potential damage they could do to all you have worked so hard to nurture for yourselves, your children, each other.

Keep coming back and sharing as you are able. We are here with cheering you on as you find the best way forward in this latest challenge.

[Starboard Song]

What I hear in your description of your DH's and your response is that you are not in the same place, yet, but you are still staying connected and talking all of this through in love and support of each other. When you choose each other you win! Every time. Bravo!

When it comes to 'telling' someone something about their ongoing behaviors that are hurting us and causing division and disconnection from us who has demonstrated they do not have ears to hear, a very wise mentor of my own suggested... say it once. Then be consistent in your level of contact and messaging with them going forward. That is what mature, loving behavior looks like.

I am such a believer in the primacy of the people who do love us. So I am glad to hear the mutual respect and engagement in your posts, as Bloomie mentions. You two ought to be able to agree together about what behaviors are never again tolerable. And what risks can be rightly taken to help DH assuage his doubts. And that can lead to a reasonable engagement plan that respects you both.

And bloomie is spot on: when we must explain ourselves to a PD or toxic person, we do it with clear, kind words. We do it with calm, friendly confidence. We do it once. There may be a little rinse and repeat over time, because we are only human. But we never engage in debate over this. Our goal in such a conversation is not to persuade, but to inform.

There is nothing more wasteful than allowing those who do not reliably love us to drive a wedge between us and those that do.


Be good. Be strong.

[mustard_seed]

hi engineer31,I'm adding my voice here to say that your boundaries sound perfectly reasonable! I'm new here and much earlier in this process, so I'm not really here to offer advice as much as solidarity.

I agree that your home is and should be your safe space. I myself can't imagine even going to a public place to meet with my own uPDmil, and am amazed by you and others who find this to be an option. I want to say, "Can't your DH see how hard you're willing to try for him by even offering to meet up in public?" but as others have said-- it's his parents, and thus more complicated for him. Whether it's the matter of being written out the will (though he says he doesn't care, could it be, also, what that symbolizes? could it be triggering something emotional in him, like abandonment fears?), or something else, it sounds like he is still Foggy, one way or another. And as others have counseled me on here: even if your DH is foggy, you can stay strong in your boundaries, doing what you know is right to protect your mental health, your  love and connection with DH, and your children.

Sending you good thoughts; take good care of yourself through this. <3