Ugh, how to really be at peace with a uNPD MIL and an enmeshed husband?

[Breakthrough]

I am VLC with my MIL.  It was very hard to get to this stage because my husband, who barely acknowledged her presence before we were married while he lived in her house, suddenly became a mamas boy the minute we got married and she started showing her true and very difficult Colors.  Her behaviour ramped up when I got pregnant with "her first grandchild", and the during my second very stressful pregnancy with my younger daughter.  I finally put my foot down with my husband when she endangered my child and told him to either move back in with his mom or get on board with being part of our family.  My parents aren't easy either, but they are kind and understand boundaries.  My husband doesn't see this at all (at least, he knows it true until I complain about his mom, then he tries to say my parents do the same thing, which is definitely not true).  MIL steps all over boundaries every chance she gets. I only speak to her the few times I see her in person, the last time was Christmas, and she managed to make me feel so regretful that I told my husband to invite them over. I would be happy to never see her again, but I tolerate and encourage her visits for my husband and kids sake, they love her.  he blames me for not seeing them more, but I have repeatedly told him that's up to him, he doesn't make the effort and has admitted in the past that he can only tolerate his parents for 5 days at a time. he just likes to displace blame, as does his mom, always to me.  So the only time we see them is when I insist, and because I want to see my SIL BIL and nephews on that side of the family, so we invite everyone.  None of them lives close by.  I really enjoy spending time with my nephews.  I realize that I don't have to include MIL, and FIL, but they would be offended and my husband would be unhappy.

So to add another layer, my husband chose to be a SAHD which was never what we agreed to before we got married, leaving me to shoulder all the financial burden.  I like my job but it's stressful and physically taxing, and I am not sure how much longer I can work.  We are saving aggressively and I hope I can manage 10 more years, which should be ok for retirement if our investments do okay.  He is a very irresponsible person, has no career after 2 degrees and no plans to work, doesn't do daily dishes, laundry is only done when the kids are out of underwear and then done the night before they need a new pair, never puts away laundry, food preps but doesn't cook (make prepackaged items), does not clean.  Does grocery shop, seems like this takes up his entire week.  Both kids are in elementary school.  House is a constant disaster, which is stressful for my mental health.  A lot of my limited free time is doing the daily tasks he should be doing while at home.  Have tried hiring a cleaner, doesn't help, I would need a daily maid which I can't afford. So he's not doing a good job at the housekeeping.  kids always used to be late to school too, and still are unless I get them ready. he wants me to do bedtime and seems angry when I don't.  He is a mostly good dad.  I am extremely unhappy about the inequities in our marriage and it makes me more resentful abut how difficult his mom is.  If I want a clean house I have to do everything after my body is in pain from working all day (sometimes takes me 16 hrs to finish up all my work, hence why I can't do bedtime).  I honestly have contemplated divorce, but still giving him time, that he frankly doesn't deserve.  He doesn't see that though, everything is everyone else's fault and responsibility but his.  I worry he has some strong N traits due to his mom, but I don't think he's an N.  He probably has undiagnosed ADHD, I suspect I do as well, but he refuses to get treated, my doc says I am functioning fine so won't treat me either.  We'll see if I have the energy to address this with her later again.  I do have him on a wait list, but want to pay to get seen sooner.  He knows this but hasn't arranged it. 

So back to the other layer, my resentment towards my husband makes me even more stressed about how difficult his mother is.  She always has to sneak in something to guilt me somehow, every time I see her.  This last time, it was asking us to come visit in the summer.  I told her that her son has lots of free time with the kids, I do not and we've already planned a family vacation for the little time I have off.  She insisted her son would not come to visit unless I came too.  I eventually walked away after telling her she needed to ask her son not me.  This went on for a while before I could walk away as she was following me around while I did dishes and her son napped.  My husband also napped in our room a lot while his family visited, leaving me to entertain them and organize activities.  This is common, he hides from them, and then gets annoyed at me for not making visits happen more often  .   

So, I honestly just want to not initiate another visit with them at all.  I think it's ok to invite my nephew's family without inviting MIL and FIL.  I know my husband will not see that, and he can choose to take our kids to see his mom and dad this summer, he just doesn't want to, but somehow both he and his mom and probably his dad too try and make this into my doing.  Hence my frustration and disturbed peace, as the summer comes.  I am going to a wedding on my side and taking my kids to visit my siblings and nieces and nephews that we haven't seen in over 2.5 years due to the pandemic.  It's just a weekend, because that's the time I have, but we'll enjoy the time we have.  Meanwhile, my husband has the entire summer to take the kids to visit his family, and he refuses.  And somehow this will get blamed on me in the future if either one of them decides to be unhappy about it.  I am just tired of this.  If my husband didn't get up to these antics too, it would bother me less, but still bothers me that he tends to side with her.  This has always been the problem.  He says he has changed, but when it comes down to it he does want to blame me for him not seeing his mom and dad more often (because I finally insisted on boundaries after she endangered my at the time 20 mo old dd and told him they cannot keep coming over whenever they want, she told me she was going to do that when I was pregnant with said daughter and her desire was monthly visits), and it's often me that insists he visit his family.  This includes extended, his mom expects I treat her parents and siblings the same way I treat my own siblings in terms of amounts of visits.  honestly I don't see my family much, prepandemic 1-2 times a year and ILs managed to guilt me and make me feel badly about even that, because it was usually over Christmas or New Year, whichever one I had off because that's when everyone was getting together.  I guess I just feel like this behaviour is toxic and I am not sure how to let it go.  I think I have until I bring it up or something triggers me to think about it, and realize I have so much anger still there.  I am not sure it will ever go away unless I completely sever my relationship with both MIL and my husband, which isn't possible because we have kids together.  My kids would be devastated if we divorced.  I like my husband, but sometimes I feel he was never worth all this trouble, and I should have moved on and dated other people.  I enjoy his company, but the headaches he comes with don't always feel worth it.

How do I come to peace with all this and just let it go?  I think I have until she does something else.  Do I just leave my own house when she comes to visit?  Them staying in a hotel is not an option, they can't afford it and my husband would be upset with me and they would be offended.  I am relieved this isn't on a monthly cycle of regular visits anymore, which took a lot of fighting with my husband to get to, but even one time a year with this person feels like too much.  They also couldn't afford to keep visiting that often so part of it was a natural decrease on their part.  The pandemic blessing for me was not having to see or talk to her at all for 2 years.  I have anxiety as travel becomes easier, I CAN'T go back to dealing with her more than once every 2 years.  I think I will just flat out tell my husband to take the kids by himself to visit every summer for a week, and that I can't have her in my home anymore.  He won't like it, but I am not sure either of us has a choice if I want to stay sane and he wants to stay married.  She just disturbs my peace of mind way too much.  I honestly think my husband likes me to deal with her, he certainly does his best to avoid her when she's visiting.  No amount of telling him he needs to deal with his own mom seems to sink into his head.  He doesn't see this.  When I set boundaries, both him and his mom were of course very upset. I told him he has lots of time to deal with his own family, I have very little and my family has some challenging ppl too, with whom I also set boundaries (which is hard for me since I grew up with porous boundaries).  I don't have the energy to also deal with his family drama.  He can, but somehow it still gets foisted on me by the both of them hand sometimes FIL too. 

I guess I just feel burnt out from this behaviour.  I would be fine to be NC with MIL but my husband doesn't seem to want to allow that (he won't take the kids by himself, despite me suggesting it many times).  I know I need to work on boundaries with my husband too.  Any suggestions on how to better do this without divorcing would be appreciated.

[notrightinthehead]

Oh my! My heart goes out to you! I am so sorry! I feel exhausted from just reading your post. I have the image of a little pony worked to death when I read your post.
I agree with you. Your problem are your husband and his parents. And yes, it is time for some boundaries and self care. Enough of bringing home all the income and then doing the household chores as well. As a single mother you would have to do that too, but you would have the funds to get help. And you would not have a grown up person doubting your decisions and interfering with the quality of your life.
You know that you have the right to say no, without giving an explanation. No. Full sentence. No, that does not work for me. No, because it is my personal preference. Say it to yourself 100 times a day, sing it as a song and then start saying to your husband. If you do not get involved in discussions it is so much more difficult to lay the guilt on you.
Your husband has a comfortable life at your expense. He does not work. He does only the absolute minimum in the house. And he lays the burden of entertaining his parents at your feet. It might be difficult to accept, but you are allowing your husband to live like that. Have you read the book 'Boundaries' by Townsend and Cloud? It is not for everyone because it has a lot of bible references in it, but I skipped those and found it extremely empowering. And I think that is what you need for now - you need to empower yourself. Stop being taken advantage of by your husband. Stop doing his part of the deal. Let him face the consequences of his behaviour himself. Boundaries have little to do with other people. They are agreements with yourself. You decide on the consequences you will take if someone trangresses your boundaries. Say, you have a certain budget how much you spend per month. Your husband regularly spends more. You tell him that from now on he will have to stick to the agreed upon amount. Then you limit his card and prevent him accessing any further of your funds. You will not be popular when he realizes that you mean what you say,  but usually people get used to new boundaries. Especially if their life is cushy.   
Since your house is in disorder, you might consider creating a space for yourself  where it is clean and safe. Thats your space. He can live in the other parts.
If you were a single mum, you probably would ask your kids to tidy up after themselves. So you could introduce that and see how your kids respond. And have a plan for the consequences if your husband actively undermines your efforts.
As for his parents - you might want to consider the broken record technique. Every time he brings them up you state, these are your parents, you are free to spend as much time with them as you want, I have chosen to keep some distance to them for now. Please respect my decision. This topic is closed.
Breakthrough,  I fear your self esteem might be quite low, maybe sometimes you think you don't deserve  better, but you do!  Please, instead of doing your husbands chores as well, find someone who can support you, maybe a self help group like CoDA or some therapy. Anything that replenishes your energy. I am not sure if you have the energy to read at all, but maybe you could check out some videos on Youtube. Try the crappy childhood fairy or dr ramani and keep posting.
You are not alone in this!

[treesgrowslowly]

Hello

This is familiar stuff for the FOG family.

Notice how they all have their boundaries. They won't save and afford a hotel room, he won't bring the kids on his own, on and on.... they have their boundaries.

When you also tried to have your boundaries they said no. That's FOG. They are in the FOG.

You won't be able to "let it all go" because it's not healthy if they get to assert their boundaries and you are left in this state over and over.

You'll need to identify some rules (ie boundaries) that give you more peace. But it doesn't sound like you'll get buy in from anyone around you  which makes it very taxing on you to establish a routine that works for you.

Is it an option for him to move in with his parents? His repeated blaming you for the problems is going to wear you down over time. It's very hard. My heart goes out to you.

These things are not your fault. There are a bunch of adults who are not taking your concerns and helping you to have boundaries so that your own life is more balanced between the self care and family caring stuff.

Trees

[Breakthrough]

notrightinthehead, thank you.  Yes it would be nice if the kids could pick up after themselves.  Unfortunately they both have ADHD and getting them to bathe themselves is a challenge, my husband will often leave them to their own devices with that while I make sure it's done properly if I get home in time to do it.  My husband likely has undiagnosed ADHD too and this is partly why nothing seems to get done in our home.  I probably do too for that matter, and it's very challenging being the executive function for 3 other ppl when I am barely managing to do it for myself.  My husband has gradually improved with this, but only after I have told him, look this is your job, anyone else who didn't do their job properly for years would get fired, getting fired here means we get separated, do you want that?  It have to tell him this repeatedly.  It's really exhausting.  I honestly regret ever marrying him at times, but then I wouldn't have my two beautiful girls and he is mostly a good dad.  I will at those YouTube videos, thanks for the empathy and suggestions, they are both much appreciated.

Treesgrowslowly, thank you for helping me see that again.  Yes this is very true.  I have discussed a trial separation with my husband, he could move back in with his parents, but I have no family here (except my parents very part time, they are older and I don't feel can handle my kids easily on their own, I want their time to be positive with grandparents, so I don't ask them to babysit).  I would be really stuck for childcare if we did that.  My kids would be devastated.  They love their dad.  My oldest would probably get over it eventually, as long as I got primary physical custody, but my youngest would be devastated.  His parents live a 13 hr drive away. Where I live, the courts will give 50/50 custody to all parents, unless you can prove abuse, and they make it very hard to do that.  Believe me, I have thought through my options.  I still feel stuck because I can see him becoming very very difficult if we did divorce, I would also owe him half of everything and wouldn't be able to afford to retire early because the courts here would make me pay him alimony for life too, on top of giving him half of everything, unless he chose to remarry.  I am just going to stick to my boundaries, you are right, my husband and MIL use my own sense of wanting to care for them and guilt against me.  Husband is very much FOG and he won't see my points about his mother ever.  I have said the exact same things to his brother about her (she only values her own family, and doesn't want to see her husband's family, and yet has a complete double standard for us, expecting the opposite).  My husband tried to claim that was untrue, but his brother backed me up and said, it was totally true.  Husband tries to gaslight me about this and many things, saying you don't know.  I dated him for 6 years before we married, and his mom very inappropriately spoke to me like a friend complaining about her in-laws the one time in 10 years she had to see them for a family reunion, while she makes an effort to see her family many times a year.  So yeah, I know because I have eyes and ears.  It's just aggravating for me.  I have decided that I am not going to deal with her at all anymore, even hearing her voice makes my stomach sink.  I can't stand when he video calls her with the kids when I am around, and he has plenty of time to do it when I am working, since I work a whole lot.  I also have given up sending them gifts, even those they found something to complain about to me in person.  They are not really gift ppl and send me nothing.  I didn't mind that part, but honestly, after the FOG lifted for me, I kept up the gift thing for 3 more years and then finally decided, they are adults and so is their son, who has far more time than me.  He can do it.  He doesn't very often, but he will remember once in a while.  To be fair, he doesn't do anything for my birthday or our anniversary, or Christmas.  He's not exactly good about gift giving, which is one of my love languages, and also something that is important in my family tradition.  I have accepted this after many years of hurt and disappointment.  He is a pretty good husband (within his capacity to manage to get things done, which is not great) on a daily basis, which I would prefer, if I had to choose that vs  he be good at gifts but not on a daily basis. 

Also to be fair, I grew up with porous boundaries.  My dad was sometimes physically abusive to me.  My mom and dad were definitely emotionally abusive at times.  It was very hard for me, and I have since realized that I am a highly sensitive person, empath and INFJ, so yeah, my personality combined with that environment was not a good combination.  I think this is why I find dealing with MIL and my husband so triggering at times.  I have placed boundaries with my parents as an adult, it took a long time, but I got there.  They respect those boundaries, though they struggled at first.  MIL and my husband and most of his other family for that matter, are boundary tramplers.  Like a whole herd of stampeding boundary tramplers.  I have told my husband dealing with his difficulties is hard enough but having to deal with a bunch of in-laws that are even more difficult doesn't help matters.  I have gone with my husband to family events on his side, when I knew it would be really hard on me in terms of making it back to work, and not getting enough rest before I had to start.  I went because he refused to go alone.  I am not going to do that anymore.  He is an adult with a lot of freedom thanks to me, so if he wants to see his parents, he can take the kids there and leave me out of it. If he chooses not to, even if MIL and he blames me, I know it's his fault.  If I must put up with her in order to see my nephews, then I will just leave the room when she's there on her own.  The issue this last time was under the guise of helping (which she took 10 years of us being married to start doing, while I, when dating my husband would always clean up and do dishes when visiting her home), so I didn't feel I could leave, since my husband was snoring in the bedroom and we were hosting and the kitchen needed cleaning.  She wouldn't listen to my boundary of talk to your son, he has more time than me.  Her excuse, well, he won't come by himself.  I should have said, that's his and your problem, not mine, so work it out between the two of you and stop putting me in the middle or you'll make your grandchildren be children of divorce.  She is very opposed to divorce and thinks it's shameful, definitely feel it would be good to let her know her behaviour makes me want to get a divorce when combined with my husband's behaviour.  I have always avoided any confrontation with her, because she's an N.  she's also not very bright.  That combined with being so incredibly difficult is a very tedious and painful combination.  I will go to the room next time, lock the door, and kick my husband out and make him clean up with his mom.  Talking to her is not productive and just serves to aggravate me and gives me more reason to want to kick my husband out. I have tried and he refused in the past.  It will take a lot of maneuvering on my part to get him out and that would not be ideal.  To be honest, if he had them 50% then she would have a lot more time with my kids potentially, she's not the influence I want in their lives, so looking out for the health of my kids is partly why I want to make my marriage work.  Him limiting time with his mom is because he wants our marriage to work.  Quite a while ago I told him we needed to do that or our marriage would implode and it was on the verge already because his mom was so difficult.  Finding this forum helped me find the strength and tools to hold boundaries in place.  I also do mostly still like my husband despite all the pain he has put me through, he is mostly very kind and thoughtful to me in the ways he can manage with his ADHD.  He still hasn't expedited the assessment I asked him to do, appointment is in Jan, but he has been doing better at managing certain things at home.  I am hopeful that if he can get medication he'll be better at managing the house.  For now, I realize he is just plain irresponsible and sometimes lazy about a lot of things, and I would rather he focus on the kids, which he does.  That being said, he has gotten better about some of his responsibilities and I know he struggles, so I want to be encouraging to him too.

[treesgrowslowly]

Hi breakthrough,

I am also someone who just got tired of trying for something healthy with my MIL. I hear you.

Have you read about ADHD vs ASD and other types of conditions that can be the root cause of some of the behaviours you see in your DH? It might help you to read more about that so that you can see how little of his behaviours are related to you, especially if you are being gaslit when you tell him what you see in your ILs. He may have thinking errors that have a neurological basis. Just food for thought.

The sad truth is that he may never see what you see. Their dysfunction is clear to you but not clear to him, and that fog is common. Most people are defensive about their parents, and I believe it is because they are protecting themselves and their parents. Emotionally, a lot of adult children of narcissists feel obligated to stay in denial. For them, that is how their parent defined love, back when they were children.

I was raised by narcs. I was taught that I "owed" them my denial. My entire childhood was one long drama of parents saying I owed them. I wonder if your DH feels obligated to give his parents what they ask for.

Even if he stays in the fog about their unhealthy behaviours, that doesn't mean he can't learn that your boundaries are real and valid.

Typically with boundaries, it can be upsetting if one partner in a marriage has asserted herself when the other partner is still in the fog because what happens is that people who are not doing their own boundary work, are envious / resentful of those who are. I believe it can be subconscious but still it explains why a spouse has such a hard time with his wife asserting boundaries that give her space to heal her own stuff (often from childhood).

It took me years to realize that my ILs triggered TOO much trauma stuff for me, and that it was NOT their decision as to how much I should be able to handle. When you describe having to explain or defend your position I feel we have been through some similar terrain.

So what if a lot of other people could handle your ILs....the reality is that many of us actually need a huge perimeter around us when we are healing.

It is actually the sign of a very strong inner child inside us when we can stand up to adults and say "Actually I'm done dealing with your immature behaviours. I have important healing to do and YOu are not invited!" Ultimately this is where I got to with my own ILs and it took a long time to get there.

And in recovery we may still choose to keep certain people far away from our inner circle of our own life.

I can see your strength in doing that same work from what you are writing here.

Like many of us here, you are working hard to protect yourself from an endless cycle of drama and upset and confusion and fog. A lot of people here have a partner who is holding on to the fog, and they don't realize it but they are holding onto the fog because it's what they know. They are not ready to leave behind the familiar land they inhabit emotionally with their parents.

You recognized that MIL isn't someone you can have safe and healthy and productive conversations with. I hear you.

With the traits that MIL and DH have that you describe, my guess is that you are not always understood by them. Well, she probably never understands you, being an N and not very bright, you have learned what is realistic in terms of who she is and what she believes, and how far apart she and you are.

Ideally your DH would recognize that he chose a wife who is not like his mom, because he wanted a relationship with someone who has developed in ways she has not. You understand boundaries and needs, and she sounds quite immature. Sounds like a part of him is aware of the need to put the marriage first and mom second (or third or fourth). A lot of couples self help books discuss this in detail, as do many psychotherapists. The marriage should come first.

What helped me and still helps me is to work to understand which boundaries I need and what limits I need to put on my time and who I will spend time with and who I will engage in small talk vs deep talk and who I will trust and who i will keep at arms length. The clearer I am with my boundaries, the easier it got when others would challenge me or gaslight me about my own needs and experiences.

Narcs want us to see the world through their lens. We take their definitions of things even when those definitions are warped and unhealthy for us. If your DH was raised by a N mother, then boundaries may have been defined long ago by her, as bad. Because a N parent always teaches their kids their definition of everything. My N parents defined up as down and black as white. Once I started looking at how their definition of : love, family, time, boundaries, support,  concern etc were all warped, I could assert myself even more so.

I am glad this forum has been helping you. It is a helpful place!

Trees

[Breakthrough]

Thanks Trees!
So many of the points you make are true.  I am not sure my husband will grow enough to say to me, yes you are right about my parents.  I think he has grown enough to see that our marriage needs to come first.  It took him a while, and strangely, he actually was worse about prioritizing our relationship after we got married.  It also seemed like his mother was more insistent on calling and being in our lives once we did get married.  Even my FIL, whom I thought was a much more emotionally balanced and wise person, has sadly surprised me in a bad way.  It turns out that financially he made a bunch of poor decisions behind my MIL's back, and it ruined their retirement plans.  Honestly, I remember my husband talking about one of the decisions, which was to buy a company they knew nothing about because a church friend told them to.  Turns out it was in not great shape.  My husband always blamed the church guy but really his parents should have done their own research.  My BIL also told me about a year ago they found out it was even worse, I don't know the details, but essentially he ruined their retirement plans some more, and they were financially in really bad shape.  I told my husband when we got engaged, he cannot expect me to support his parents, I have my own parents to help.  My husband said that his parents would never ask that.  Since husband never got a career off the ground, I think his dad has looked at me like I will save them financially.  We are good savers and make cautious investments, but I will likely need to medically retire in 5-10 years, work is getting really exhausting.  Even that might not be enough to get us to retirement, but my husband doesn't take any financial responsibility for our family, so it's pretty much all on me.  I am thinking I will go to our family doctor together and see if we can get him on a medication trial.  He's willing now because he sees how it helps our kids.  My hope is he at least is more responsible at home, and I hope he starts working too, but that might be hoping for too much from him.  His dad has made comments to me that make me worry they will expect things financially.  I have made it clear to my husband I have to prioritize our family, I don't do much for my parents financially, and I had hoped to do much more.  They know I am stressed about saving to retire and understand.  My BIL and SIL get a lot of help from MIL (free babysitting for many years while SlL worked). They live in the same city and will likely be the ones that have to help them if they really need it.  Personally I think they should fix up their home and sell it, and downsize to gain some retirement funds, but I won't even talk to them about any of this because I don't want to get guilted into feeling like I need to help financially when we can't afford to.  I asked BIL not to share details with us and I told him why, husband has saddled me with all the financial responsibilities, and I am not sure how much longer I can manage working, so we have to focus on saving.  He just told me it was quite a bad situation for them.  I feel like not knowing how bad is better for me, helps me keep boundaries in place. 

I told my husband we can see BIL and SIL separately from MIL, but I know she is delighted to be with all her grandkids which is why I invited them too.  Husband has some insight into how his parents are, even if he won't admit it to me.  He yelled at his dad once because he was playing on his phone instead of spending time with our kids.  I feel like in the future, I am just going to invite BIL and SIL unless it's for a big holiday like Christmas.  In that case, I will invite them and avoid her better in the future, and use the lock on my bedroom door.  I think just having any association with someone who is so bad about respecting boundaries is unsettling to me.  I mean I have blocked my own sister on my phone because she refuses to stop her abusive and intrusive behaviours.  She decided to send me 10 nasty emails instead.  I read 2 of them and stopped because they left me in tears.  You are very right about us holding boundaries while healing.  My husband won't acknowledge his parents abuse, "I am fine", yeah no he's not, but I can't make him want to explore that for himself.  I am going to connect with a new counsellor next week, I hope that will help me on this journey.