Accepting gifts, the silent treatment, and unfinished business

[bee well]

Some time ago I accepted a gift from a family member with whom I have very little contact. I appreciated the gift, but I felt uncomfortable about accepting it. This is someone who had given the silent treatment for years. When asked about the family members' silence and if there was anyway we could clear the air, the Spouse said. "They just don't feel like communicating." (What had happened previously is that they had essentially cut off dialogue at a crucial time--rather than address a painful and uncomfortable discussion at a time of loss, the no talk rule kicked in.)

This gift was for a once in a lifetime special occasion, and I think in the moment I slipped out of denial and thought maybe the gift signalled things would be different in the future. That maybe things would change.

I was very grateful for the gift and thanked them profusely, more than once.

Fast forward and the family member is back to giving me the silent treatment with no reason, after a few one line responses. I very occasionally exchange a  greetings with the family member's Spouse, addressing them both.

(Note that these are people with whom I only have written communication. We haven't seen each other in years. I won't go into it here but I have decided that is best for me to keep that boundary in place. There's a lot of time and distance between us, but we are linked by the painful history of relatives who are now passed on. As I write this trauma bonds come to mind.)

In another twist of the situation, this couple has an adult child who has not gotten along with one parent over the years (the one who is giving the silent treatment.) When I have asked about this child, there has been no response. In the past they would sign their names along with the siblings' name (GC). Now the name of this child, who I now come to realize has likely been scapegoated, has disappeared. I assume they are now in NC with the SG. The fact that they just suddenly stopped all mention of this child is for me a red flag,

This whole situation feels extremely weird.

There are two things that occasionally bother me:

1) Guilt for having accepted the gift. I don't have a history exchange gifts with them, except for gifts they had given me when I was young.

It seems odd that someone would send a gift and then drop off into the silent treatment. Could that be a power play?... I sometimes think it was a mistake to accept the gift. But I accepted it and I can't do anything about that.

2) I ask myself about the utility of this relationship. Even if it is basically non-existent, it feels very false and I wonder why I continue on in this way. The conclusion I have come to so far is that as I am in NC with one whole side of my FOO, and it would be very destabilizing to not have any contact with any relatives at all. I note here that there are also  a few other members of this side of the family with whom I exchange occasional greetings. There is also no depth to it, lots of undiscussed passed tensions, the aforementioned painful history and water under the bridge, etc.

There was one relative on this side who in the past I had considered opening up to about some pieces of our family history, and asking questions, but I later realized, emotionally speaking, it would not be wise to open up that can of worms at this time. It's not what I need,

I guess what it comes down to is struggling with the vestiges of my reverence for these relatives, also accepting that I can and never will have a relationship of any substance with them. Open communication is not a part of the family "rules." It never has been and that it not my fault, and I just need to go on with my life and be ok with unfinished business.

Any thoughts on this? Similar experiences?

[Call Me Cordelia]

Hi bee,

I was similarly in very little contact with my extended family, and since being NC with my immediate FOO I have decided it just simply not worthwhile to me to maintain the Christmas card contact and annual family party invitations I never really wanted to accept anyway. I never felt really a part of the extended family and mostly wondered why I was even there except it made uNM happy.

I had one uncle who gave me cash gifts on the births of my children, but when I didn't thank him IMMEDIATELY it was a big problem to my mother. (Hello, just had a baby?) Otherwise I had no relationship with him that was separate from me being my mother's child. Seriously, I never spent time with him that she did not completely dominate and I don't think I ever really had any kind of conversation that was not quickly taken over by my parents.

I think the gift was important to him because there will not be any other children in the family as far as I know. But who knows. I don't have anything personally against him or any of my other more distant relations. But it's just too difficult and in the end there wasn't enough there for me to make the cost-benefit of the effort to keep boundaries AND contact worth it. If we were close to begin with, it might have been different. But we aren't and never were so that ship has sailed now that my only bridge to these folks (my parents) is burned.

Anyway, all that to say I see some similarities here. You and this family member are primarily linked by your painful history with now-dead family members. It was never a close relationship, now almost non-existent. No falling out exactly, but it's painful.

It may very well be true that this person simply didn't feel like communicating. You did nothing wrong in accepting a gift that was offered. A gift is not guarantee of any future relationship. In healthy families maybe it works that way. My most optimistic take is you wish each other well but it's just all too complicated. That would really be okay. So so many relationships simply die.

The part about their possible SG child... maybe. I agree it seems odd. Do you want a relationship with the children or just the parents? Why? If you feel like there are red flags and it's simply not worth it to you to pursue this relationship, well that makes a lot of sense. It helps me to ask what is my goal for a certain course of action to help clarify things for me. What is the goal of sending cards or whatever it is you want to do here? Is that realistic? Can you accept that they likely will not reciprocate?

It helped me to be honest with myself here. I contemplated sending Christmas cards and such to prove I wasn't the terrible person the smear campaign probably said I was. That was not a worthy goal. I didn't actually care about building relationships from the ground up at that point. I didn't have the energy. So I decided simply not to play that field, so to speak. Others have been horrified I cut off my whole family, even the ones who did nothing wrong. Like with ST vs. NC, it's all about intentions here.

[bee well]

Hi Call me Cordelia,

Thanks for your reply.

First of all, I want to applaud you for all that you have done to build a safe, healthy place for you and your family to grow. Having the courage to distance yourself and go NC an ongoing process and not just a one and done, especially as the family grows and changes....

I really can't know if there is anything behind this lack of communication...it's possible there isn't and the relative is just being themself for whatever reason. (we haven't ever had any direct conflicts but there are these red  flags and I know their character is not what we'd consider easy going). It's the strange non-responses when I have asked if anything was wrong that disarmed me.

The initial response was to personalize it and wonder if it was anything wrong with me, Before this we have had long periods of not communicating with no explanation on either part, which I can attribute to time, distance, and life events along the way. At one point I apologized for not having been in touch and it later sunk in that communication works both ways.

I don't think at this point there I would want to cultivate a relationship with the SG even if they might be a nice person, and after all this time it not likely they would either.

The family looks very good on the outside but we know how unresolved pain can result in behind closed doors dysfunction. I remember during the last visit their partner was worried about consequences of fingerprints on the furniture. (What will happen if they come home and see these...) There was a lot of walking on eggshells, I didn't know what that was at the time..Then I thought wow..they are sure fastidious, now I see that's a red flag and part of the larger picture.  Also not mine to take on but still sad.

There was one family member, now gone, who had distanced himself from the family and he was constantly badmouthed. At the time  my young self thought something must have been wrong with him, but now that I know what I know, I can see that I have no idea what really went on there.

So as you touched on in your response, a lot of it is about not wanting to be thought of as a terrible person. I've gotten past that with other side of my family, but I can see that's still at work here. Intellectually I know that feeling is FOGgy but it still surfaces at times.  It sure takes a lot of time to work through it all!

These relatives have been important to me more than anything, on a symbolic level, and it's about more than them. It's hard to accept that what is not there in substance is not there and has never been there..

It's not possibile to receive clarity from people I have never been close to and do not have a chance of bonding with in the future. I need to work on that within myself.

I can see that this is about breaking the fantasy bonds, and grieving the loss.

You wrote:
" I decided simply not to play that field, so to speak." That's where I am at this point.

You also wrote:  "Others have been horrified I cut off my whole family, even the ones who did nothing wrong..." To remove oneself from the system also means letting go, sometimes completely, of those who are unwittingly and seemingly a benign part of it.

And it is all about intention. Others may never understand the intention behind such a decision. But to remain steady one must stay clear on intention.

Thanks again for taking the time to read and write, I appreciate it. It really helps so much to share.

[treesgrowslowly]

Hi Bee well,

One of the things I learned as I worked to recover from PD abuse, is that when people do things that lead to you guessing at what is going on, why you feel this way, and so on....it is a form of relational dysfunction. 

They may not even see it that way, but that is what it is. Healthy people do not leave you guessing as to why they did something - you're able to tell them how you're feeling and clarify.

I hear you - it is wise of you to realize that isn't an option. You can't have a 1-sided healthy relationship with people...relatives or not. Both people need to be willing to communicate.

I am sorry you find yourself in this situation. I really do wish more of us had relatives who knew how to communicate properly. A lot of families are in this state - everything you describe is familiar to my situation in terms of the lack of honesty between people, the unresolved tension when people do get together, and then the older I get, the more protective I feel about all of it - just like you express. We get tired of it.

People give 'gifts' for all sorts of reasons, especially in a family. Through the years here we have discussed, as a community, how gifts can be used as a way of controlling someone else. Or sometimes a person is just disordered in their thinking, and they send someone a gift, not realizing how inappropriate it is to send a gift instead of working to repair the communication with the person. I really do think there were a lot of people who were raised to just sweep things under the rug! Maybe this gift was sent to you so they could talk about it to someone (I've seen that with narcissists too). Gifts can be sent as a way of starting up some drama - basically pulling you in to see if they can get something out of you.

In the end, you may never know what the heck they are thinking and what is going on for them.

Again, it is sad how few of us can find relatives who have stayed healthy enough to just hold a 'normal' relationship with them together!!

I am heartened by the fact that many of us are distancing ourselves from people who destabilize us.

We are not obligated to give them access to us. You are in good company here, bee well.

Trees

[bee well]

Thanks, Trees.

This is so true:

"One of the things I learned as I worked to recover from PD abuse, is that when people do things that lead to you guessing at what is going on, why you feel this way, and so on....it is a form of relational dysfunction.

They may not even see it that way, but that is what it is. Healthy people do not leave you guessing as to why they did something - you're able to tell them how you're feeling and clarify."

The fact that so much time has been spent wondering about this with no resolution is this is a sign to distance. (Frankly, I've had enough.) It does come down them not seeing it any way but their own, and the lack of clear communication. I have noticed in both branches of my family that people don't tend to talk directly to each other...

I have seen strange gift giving behaviour with other uPDs. It's definitely a rug sweeping mechanism, and even shifts the balance. "Well, I gave them a gift, evertything is ok, I don't know what's wrong with them..."

Which brings me to this: Last time I asked how everyone was doing, I got this: "WE are okay" in capital letters. Perhaps I am overanalytical, but the caps suggested to me that perhaps it was I that someone else was not okay. Me, or the "disappeared" scapegoat relative, who??? (Now stepping away from uselessly examining uPD non-logic...)

This is so good to hear:

"I am heartened by the fact that many of us are distancing ourselves from people who destabilize us...

We are not obligated to give them access to us. You are in good company here."

It is indeed heartening to see that amidst the dysfunction that we are having these conversations, and creating healthier spaces (Finally, the ideas discussed in this forum are starting to circulate more widely!)...

Bee

[justducky]

Healthy people do not leave you guessing as to why they did something - you're able to tell them how you're feeling and clarify.

Thank you for putting this so succinctly. This is one of those statement that I'll keep in mind going forward.

[treesgrowslowly]

Hi Beewell and Justducky,

What great screen names you each have!

Justducky, I am glad that phrasing helped. It is something I learned was a big part of the abuse I endured- to always be guessing at why the PD relative did this or that. The guessing was the destabilized stuff - instead of knowing how they feel or where I stand in their life, I'd have to guess and guess and guess. And never really 'know'. That's part of PD emotional abuse right there. Healthy people don't want the people around them to guess and guess and guess.

The 2nd aha moment attached to that, was when I realized that the PD themselves, would not know why they were doing these things. If I were to say "Hey why did you buy me that gift?", they would have a response, but I wouldn't be able to trust it. They don't know why they do the things that they do.

And with the people I've known, as long as you give them enough time (i.e. more than say 3 minutes ha ha, they will somehow find a way to blame you - either for asking the question in the first place, making. them angry, or questioning them...somehow this will all become "your fault"...and who needs that??)

Beewell, that is a great observation too and so well put that sometimes a PD will think "I gave them a gift, everything is ok, I don't know what is wrong with them?" . That is exactly it. It could be a way for them to be able to then say "something is wrong with Beewell".

We know that the problem may not be dealt with at all, a gift rarely solves a problem between 2 people but it does seem that narcissists like to pretend that gifts solve interpersonal problems. Probably because their thinking is disordered, and they have a lot of ideas that are very immature / childish, about how things work.

Gifts can be such an effective way to manipulate people. It is sad because it triggers a healthy desire in us, to feel valued. A gift from someone with disordered thinking (PD or not), can be really upsetting. Gifts from healthy people, really are tokens of affection. And I think that we all yearn for that, and for those healthy gift-giving experiences.

It's really messed up to give someone a gift and not explain or understand how it can be destabilizing - leave the person guessing. It reminds me of the things I've read, about how narcs will always try to destabilize the person trying to recover. The narc cannot seem to support recovery work, either directly or indirectly. They do things that mess us up inside and confuse us.

Gifts are usually about them. I mean, sure, some people who don't know them well, might think "oh wow so and so is so nice, giving Beewell a gift like that".

Giving gifts makes them look good to people who don't know them very well. Who don't know that they have other traits, such as confusing people, and sweeping things under the rug.

I think that narcs who have social groups (i.e. a church group they belong to), they could go to the group with their 'story' "We gave Beewell a gift and look at how we are being treated. Poor us!" . Playing the victim...

It's all so tedious after a while, the way that they operate. Beewell I am glad you are seeing through all of this and healing from it.

Beewell, in your original post I saw that you wrote "It would be destabilizing to have no contact with any relatives at all". I feel for you and I am in the boat where there is no contact with any relatives. And it was hard to adjust. It has been a process spanning over many many years. The realization - that there was no depth to the relationships, that one helped, even as it hurt as well. Grieving what we've lost is a huge part of recovery from N abuse.

Personally I have found that Pete Walker's writing on grief have been really helpful to return to over and over.

You also mentioned reverence for these relatives. It's ok to grow and to see things with new eyes as we get older. I think that happens for many people, not just those of us with PD families or FOO.

When you felt reverence for those relatives, in the past, you probably also had reverence and hope for the relationship you thought you might have with them. And that is normal. I've had to grieve a lot of that. I had relatives that I really thought might join me in my recovered state - but sadly they are not going to. They remain in the FOG.

When it comes down to it, these are complicated losses, that we start to grieve, even when the FOO members are still alive, because we are grieving for the things that were never there, but we wanted them to be there. That depth of relationship, like you said. Grieving that you didn't really have much of that with them, or maybe had it in the past but then it went away (due to changes in their health / coping / personality), it is all valid to grieve what we've lost along the way when we are recovering.

Trees

[justducky]

The guessing was the destabilized stuff - instead of knowing how they feel or where I stand in their life, I'd have to guess and guess and guess. And never really 'know'. That's part of PD emotional abuse right there. Healthy people don't want the people around them to guess and guess and guess.

The 2nd aha moment attached to that, was when I realized that the PD themselves, would not know why they were doing these things. If I were to say "Hey why did you buy me that gift?", they would have a response, but I wouldn't be able to trust it. They don't know why they do the things that they do.

I'm going to hijack this thread briefly because the above kind of gets at where I've been with being NC with my FOO since early this year.

Brief synopsis of what lead to NC: uPD alcoholic father, enabling and maybe covert N mother, co-dependent sister. I effectively fled once I went to college. My sister stayed close physically and emotionally. Lots of triangulation. As I healed (and got therapy!) and learned better behaviors I lowered contact more and more. The bottom fell out after uPD father died several years ago. enSis moved her small family in with enMom less than a year after uPD father died. They were in financial trouble; BIL had been unemployed for years. enMom played covert games and was showing signs of dementia.

I went NC with enMom last year after she called me out of the blue--we hadn't spoken or emailed in months--begging me to let her move in because allegedly BIL wanted her out. "I have money," she said. By this point she was utterly untrustworthy either due to confabulation or outright lies. I flat-out told her no, she will never live with me, and blocked all avenues of contact with her and enSis.

Eventually I allowed emails from enSis because enMom is approaching the age at which her mother died.

enSis emailed me in December asking why we're estranged. She claims to not have a clue about all of the drama and triangulation that happened after uPD father died.

After careful consideration I started an email-only conversation to reestablish a relationship. I stated that I needed to keep things light.

enSis mostly went along with it. I, however, was anxious about what I shared, how it might be used, when enSis might reply, and scrutinized every word wondering what she really meant. I don't know how much of that was warranted. I didn't feel safe asking.

When enSis said that her 10 year old daughter (my niece) really wants me to visit to get to know me, I was angry, suspicious, and paranoid.  Surely enSis was trying to reel me back in. What was she planning?

After sleeping on it and considering the situation and my reaction to limited contact, I never replied and went full NC. I feel guilty and generally bad about it, but stick with NC so I'm not distressed.

It just stinks that I'll likely never know if enSis had ulterior motives or not.

[bee well]

Hi justducky and Trees,

justducky,

I'm glad to hear you were able to go off to college (and later had space to heal and were able to get therapy)  in spite of such a challenging situation. That's not easy to do when you are surrounded by dysfunction!

Your "radar" was on and when you sensed danger you acted immediately to protect yourself. Later you allowed your Sister to get closer again due to the situation with your Mom, and were naturally suspicious of ulterior motives.

You write: " After sleeping on it and considering the situation and my reaction to limited contact, I never replied and went full NC. I feel guilty and generally bad about it, but stick with NC so I'm not distressed.

It just stinks that I'll likely never know if enSis had ulterior motives or not."

For me this is one of the hardest parts of going NC. Not knowing, and then letting go. It is hard to stop guessing and trying to make sense of something that had no sense. (I still struggle with that from time to time as you can see in my original  post.) It helps me to remember that I may not know all of what happened, but I know enough to be sure of my decisions.

It is also extremely difficult to let go of numerous family members without closure. In retrospect I realized many people I thought had my back, did not, in spite of our common history and some good times we had shared.

As Trees wrote, there is a lot of grief to deal with in these situations.This type of grief is even more difficult because it's not like a death, which is usually in the natural order of things. I bring this up because for a great deal of of my life I felt defective because I was not able to "just get over it" as we are often told we should do. Distress was normalized and I didn't even realize how many things I had not grieved, until it all caught up with me after NC.

Trees mentioned Pete Walker's work. I don't know if you have heard of him but he has also helped me immensely in this process, I continue to go back to his books as well As time goes by I re-read them and understand them in new ways. He also has a website which has lots of free content.

However you decide to approach it,  I hope you will go easy on yourself as you move through this. You are not alone.

[bee well]

Sorry, I posted my response to justducky before finishing the following:

Trees,

I am sorry you are in the boat where you are in no contact with any relatives. Most people would have a hard time understanding that that is the only way some of us can have space to grow and heal, and have a healthier life. I'm glad you were able to prioritizepeace, even if that meant coming to the point of NC.

What you wrote about narcs and their gift giving motives are good observations. Those gifts have much less to do with the recipient than they do with some very disturbed individuals and their need to fill a gap or keep up appearances in order to preserve their self image and maintain their idea of stability.

It pains me to say this because the people I am talking about are people I admired before I knew what I know now.

What you wrote here resonates:

"When you felt reverence for those relatives, in the past, you probably also had reverence and hope for the relationship you thought you might have with them. And that is normal. I've had to grieve a lot of that. I had relatives that I really thought might join me in my recovered state - but sadly they are not going to. They remain in the FOG.

When it comes down to it, these are complicated losses, that we start to grieve, even when the FOO members are still alive, because we are grieving for the things that were never there, but we wanted them to be there. That depth of relationship, like you said. Grieving that you didn't really have much of that with them, or maybe had it in the past but then it went away (due to changes in their health / coping / personality), it is all valid to grieve what we've lost along the way when we are recovering."

You are right, it's complicated. Now I am in NC with most of my family and now I am grieving a relationship with the others that is and was mostly in my head. It sounds strange to say but if they disappeared now (and I wouldn't wish that for them) it wouldn't make a difference in my life.

At most I can see the possibility of an occasional grey rock greeting, but beyond that, it's done. Trying to make sense of it at this point seems like a form of self abuse.

As I wrote to justducky, Pete Walker's work has also been extremely important to me. Thank you for mentioning it. I wouldn't be here if not for Walker and I feel very fortunate to have found his work when I did. I can see it's helped you too, and I am glad to hear it.

[justducky]

Bee, thank you for your kind words and advice. I appreciate you being supportive when I hijacked your thread! 

For me this is one of the hardest parts of going NC. Not knowing, and then letting go. It is hard to stop guessing and trying to make sense of something that had no sense. (I still struggle with that from time to time as you can see in my original  post.) It helps me to remember that I may not know all of what happened, but I know enough to be sure of my decisions.

100% this. I'm sorry that you wrestle with similar things. It sounds like you've got it pretty well handled even though it's painful at times.

It is also extremely difficult to let go of numerous family members without closure. In retrospect I realized many people I thought had my back, did not, in spite of our common history and some good times we had shared.

An odd silver lining to the dysfunction on my mother's side of the family (which is pretty large) is that, at least with my FOO, there was little connection. We saw each other at holidays. Little contact otherwise. Support and camaraderie? LOLOLOLOL NOPE. So having no contact with them was easy. I'd moved far away. Christmas cards were exchanged. That was it. There's nothing to miss. One aunt served as enMom's flying monkey. When I set some firm boundaries with her, she dropped me like a hot rock. Okay, byeeeee!

[treesgrowslowly]

Hi Justducky and Bee Well,

This is touching on some really important areas of healing, and I am glad you have both posted your insights!

Justducky, I agree with what Beewell wrote and will try not to repeat those same things as that is my view of things as well.

Beewell thank you for your kind words about my own process and the journey Out of the FOG. I want more out of my relationships, than my FOO can give. It has been a lot of work to get here. I could not involve them in my healing journey, and in this Out of the FOG community, I feel like people here such as yourself and others here, really understand what that has meant. I don't know if people can understand it if they have not been through it themselves. Being here is grounding for me. I don't even bother talking to people about my situation anymore unless I know they've been through something similar.

Justducky: What I will add regarding your situation with enSis is that from what you wrote, my thought is that the trust has not been established - and that you are wise to know that this is not something you could repair on your own.

enSis would need to establish a lot of trust with you before it would feel good for you to become involved in her and her kids lives. From what you wrote, it sounds like enSis wants to 'skip' that part, and just pretend that you have the emotional safety together as sisters, that you know you don't.

Re-establishing emotional safety in a relationship after FOO dysfunction....there's something that is very very tricky. Both people need to be able to convey that they understand and respect each other's boundaries. I don't know how often that actually happens. For a lot of us, the FOO relationships remain in bondage after PD abuse.

Many people are just going to stay in the Fog, where healthy relationships are just not realistic....

It is rare that two people from a dysfunctional FOO, find their way to a healthy relationship with one another, where there is now real trust. A lot of inner work has to happen in order for that to be possible. Inner work for both people.

Sadly what is much more common, is that one person will escape the dysfunction (as you did with college, and therapy (me too!)), and that person will then be sought out by someone in the FOO who probably wants a healthy relationship with you, but has no experience with how to do that...AND has been raised / socialized by people who normalized all of the things that make healthy relationships impossible.

It takes a lot of inner work to recognize that we need to learn all sorts of things, in order to make healthy relationships possible.

My gut is telling me that your gut is telling you that enSis has not done this work, and it is wise of you to stay aware of her limitations. Sad as it all is - because we know that the sources of these injuries goes back to childhood stuff within the PD family.

What seems to be so common in families, is for someone to push for the "past" to be 'swept under the rug'. These are people who want to pretend that healthy boundaries already exist. They want to convey the message "everything is good here now, look at us we are a happy loving family". If that is what is behind this request for you to get to know your niece, you are like me - unable to do that sweeping under the rug thing. I've never been able to do it!

You can't just leave something broken in the corner, and then pick it up 2 or 5 or 10 years later, and pretend it's repaired. But that is how a lot of people approach relationships. They want the relationship to be repaired, they want trust to be felt, even though no one has done the repair work. My FOO loved sweeping things under the rug.

You are doing very deep work in my opinion because only a few of us ever become this aware of the legacy of PD family trauma.

Your niece will miss out on certain relationship experiences, because repair work takes time, and sadly, there isn't enough repaired between you and your enSis. And that isn't your fault. We can't rush anyone's inner work. I have come to reflect on the truth about getting Out of the FOG....it takes generations. The younger generations can work to repair some of the pain and dysfunction they carry, but they can't heal everything in one lifetime. The younger generation growing up today will benefit from the repair work we did as the adult generation, but they will also have to do things to keep the process going.

What do you think of that? When you zoom out to see healing as a multi-generational process, does it help you to see how much weight you've carried on your 2 shoulders alone?

How much you've tried to heal, as one person who was part of a whole system of people (who all need healing)?

There is so much damage done to people through PD abuse, it is not realistic for us to fix all of it ourselves. And in a lot of FOO, the fantasy is that the SG or lost child will return and fix everything. I think that is what a lot of the contact from PD parents later in life is about. It's their fantasy that the one who left and got therapy, will come back to 'fix' everyone else's relationships. Has that happened to you?

We can't fix people's relationships to themselves, nor to us. We cant go back into a system of dysfunction after going through therapy and becoming acutely aware of our own emotional needs. I could never step back into the dysfunctional dynamics I grew up tolerating (and seeing as normal). I would last 5 minutes lol!

I've come to understand that when there was a lot missing in our FOO (in terms of healthy relating, trust, support, etc...), a lot of healing is needed. We're going to get to a point in our own recovery where we refuse to live like that anymore - with that stuff missing in our own lives.

It takes a lot of courage to heal because there is a lot of heartbreak along the way.

As we heal and get clearer with our own boundaries and self-care, people with ulterior motives may ask us for things we do not want to give them, and they may never understand why.

We survivors who took ourselves to therapy, a lot of us have relatives who want us to devote our lives to repairing things that THEY actually have to repair. We can't do that work for them.

Do you think that part of what you were being asked to do, was parent your niece because you are someone who has skills and empathy? This is the obligation part of FOG. I have FOO who worked real hard to try to convince me that I was obligated to take care of all my relatives, all the time.

(What lost on them, was that no one seemed to feel obligated to help me or take care of me in any way. Funny how that belief about obligation only went one way).

If you grew up being told you were obligated to take care of people, or accommodate them, etc... then healing is about feeling good giving yourself the things you were told to give to other people, and not need yourself.

It would take a lot of work for most of our FOO members to get clear on what it is they want and what is motivating them. It is very possible that your enSister does not really know why she wants you back in her life. As we all know, that is what therapy is for. Therapy is great for sorting out what we want and what we need and why we want and need those things. There are a lot of people who go through life without knowing why they feel the way they feel, and want the things they want from others.

Once you've sorted that out for yourself, you have clarity on things they are still in the fog about. When I read through your posts, I see that you have a lot of clarity about things that are important to have clarity about.

Not knowing if someone has ulterior motives, becomes a valid reason to distance ourselves from them. We begin to ask for those healthy things in our adult relationships. We want clarity. We are tired of guessing at what people are up to.

At a certain point, if the therapy has allowed us to heal (which I think it has for you), we are no longer able (or willing) to enter the drama that comes from such confusion, of not knowing what people want from us, of not having clarity. Of being confused by them over and over.

We are in our recovered state when we know there are things that are not our responsibility, even if others think that they are. I deeply admire anyone who takes on this work, as you have, Justducky.

Trees

[justducky]

Trees, thank you for your thoughtful reply and kind words! When things settle down a bit more for me--dealing with sick inlaws and sick pets  -- I'll reply properly.

[justducky]

regarding your situation with enSis is that from what you wrote, my thought is that the trust has not been established ... it sounds like enSis wants to 'skip' that part, and just pretend that you have the emotional safety together as sisters, that you know you don't.

This makes a lot of sense. enSis didn't necessarily have any plans. She just wanted to skip any kind of relationship repair and insert me back into her family's life.

Based on what little contact I had with enSis and enMom last year, enMom is in mid-stage dementia. enSis and BIL are effectively her caretakers, which can't be fun since she was passive-aggressive well before dementia. On one hand, it's admirable that they're taking care of her. On the other, I don't have a lot of sympathy for all of the stress and nonsense they surely go through because enSis moved very, very quickly to move her family into enMom's house after uPD father died. That was her ticket out of a bad financial situation with a husband who couldn't/wouldn't work and stayed home to "take care of" their daughter... despite having free babysitting from enMom.

The whole situation stank to high heaven. If I dared question any of it, there was hell to pay. So I went dark and backed away while enMom and enSis tried to keep reeling me back in.

Sadly what is much more common, is that one person will escape the dysfunction (as you did with college, and therapy (me too!)), and that person will then be sought out by someone in the FOO who probably wants a healthy relationship with you, but has no experience with how to do that...AND has been raised / socialized by people who normalized all of the things that make healthy relationships impossible.

I imagine that enSis thinks I have it made: no kids of my own, a good job, a husband, and no aggravating, dementia-addled mother to contend with. I know for a fact that she resents the fact that I do nothing to help with enMom. I feel a little guilt over that, but not much. enSis and BIL are responsible for each and every choice they made. They're living with the consequences, just as I live with the consequences of going VLC and now NC.

I think enSis wants support and some to vent to. I am not willing to do that. It's a toxic minefield. I wish I'd had the courage to try to tell her my perception of things in a diplomatic manner. I don't, so I was avoidant as usual and cut contact.

These are people who want to pretend that healthy boundaries already exist. They want to convey the message "everything is good here now, look at us we are a happy loving family". If that is what is behind this request for you to get to know your niece, you are like me - unable to do that sweeping under the rug thing. I've never been able to do it!

SAME.

Even before uPD father died I was astounded to see enSis kinda sorta pretend that we had a functional family. I say kinda sorta because we'd both complain about our parents' dysfunctional, toxic behaviors. Yet when our parents' 40th wedding anniversary rolled around, enSis organized a big party and invited all of our relatives.   

I flat out told her that I didn't understand why. They hated each other. Their relationship was awful. Why on earth would anyone celebrate that?

enSis was disappointed and I think hurt at my lack of enthusiasm. I stuck to my guns and didn't help with any of the planning. My partner and the time and I did attend. It was okay. I took the opportunity to chat with my not dysfunctional relatives and left the facade to others. enMom looked nervous and miserable. uPD father put on his public face and seemed to enjoy it. I mostly avoided them.

When you zoom out to see healing as a multi-generational process, does it help you to see how much weight you've carried on your 2 shoulders alone?

Whoa.

I'd never thought of it that way.

Despite all of the work I've done, I feel broken, like I should be more healed and functional than I am. I mean, I do function, but I get overwhelmed quickly in some situations. I avoid people because, generally speaking, people hurt.

And in a lot of FOO, the fantasy is that the SG or lost child will return and fix everything. I think that is what a lot of the contact from PD parents later in life is about. It's their fantasy that the one who left and got therapy, will come back to 'fix' everyone else's relationships. Has that happened to you?

Maybe. I don't know what enSis and enMom's expectations are because I've limited contact so much in the last several years. It blows my mind that anyone could think that a family member who'd distanced themselves would ride back in on a white horse and fix everything. That's impossible! The same problems are still there, and likely worse. No one has a magic wand.

Do you think that part of what you were being asked to do, was parent your niece because you are someone who has skills and empathy? This is the obligation part of FOG. I have FOO who worked real hard to try to convince me that I was obligated to take care of all my relatives, all the time.

I'm sorry that your FOO dumped that obligation on you. That's awful.

My FOO surely understands by now that I have no interest in parenting. They probably don't agree with it, but I've been consistent with my boundaries. They do seem to wish I'd knuckle under and go back to my assigned role. It ain't happening.

We are in our recovered state when we know there are things that are not our responsibility, even if others think that they are. I deeply admire anyone who takes on this work, as you have, Justducky.

Thank you, Trees. That's high praise that I truly appreciate. 

Thank you for the time and thought you put into your reply.

[JenniferSmith]

Setting aside the issue of the gift, the rest of this first post resonates with me.

The commonality is that like the OP, I have also tried to maintain a relationship with a set of relatives (husband and wife) on the "healthier" side of my family tree. But after several years of trading emails, Christmas  cards, an occasional phone call, I've reached the same conclusions as the OP.  These people are not interested in having anything more than the most superficial relationship.

Things like taking an interest in my life, having curiosity about me as a person, caring about me.... none of those things are present. If I send an email, I might not hear back for six months or ever.  If I do get a response, they answer a question about themselves and then sign off.  There is no acknowledgement, such as "oh, its nice to hear from you" or "take care and hope to hear from you again" or anything of that sort.

I persisted with all this for several years, and felt so much pain and hurt. I wanted so much for these people to care about me in some way, even if just in a friendly way, nothing super deep. But it just feels like there is nothing there.  This quality is a personality style that I have seen in a number of relatives in this branch of the family. Words such as insular, introverted, emotionally flat, disconnected come to mind. There is no hostility or arguments or fights.  I'm sure if asked they would speak nicely about me.  But there is that lack of honest connection. The feeling that if I hit a tennis ball across the court, rather than having it hit back to me, it will just drop and at some unexpected time they might decide to hit it back.  This results in no trust or closeness on my part.

Over the past year, I've slowly worked through the pain and have reached the conclusion that it only hurts me to keep wanting to get certain needs met from these people who either don't want to or cannot meet them for me.  I'm still very sad that this is the way it is, but sometimes reality is sad.  I replied to an email recently with the same superficiality that they show to me. I hit send and felt a weight lift off me because at that moment I decided I no longer want or need anything from them at all.

If they ever decide to contact me, I will be happy to respond, but if I never hear from them again, I'm ok with that too.

In that email exchange recently, a comment they made revealed that while I was attuned to the lack of contact between us, it hardly registered for them at all.  I doubt they even realize how the comment was so revealing.  I really have no idea what they would say if anyone else in the family ever asked them about me.  That is a sign of how deeply disengaged we are from each other.

anyway, this is a good thread and I appreciate the sharing of everyone on it.

[bee well]

Hi justducky, Trees, and Jennifer,

I just thought I'd pop in and say hi. I hope you all are doing well as can be these days!

Jennifer,

I definitely see similarities in our situation. For me one of the main issues that come out of this is the difference in the ways people relate to the World and other people.

You wrote:

"I've slowly worked through the pain and have reached the conclusion that it only hurts me to keep wanting to get certain needs met from these people who either don't want to or cannot meet them for me.  I'm still very sad that this is the way it is, but sometimes reality is sad."

It is really sad and hard to grasp that making a connection beyond the most superficial level isn't possible, especially when we are relating with (or trying to relate) people who, in healthier circumstances, might naturally be open and curious in their communications with us.

They just don't think like "we" do, and as you pointed out, there is a lack of interest and insight that can make our attempts to communicate especially frustrating. This is a theme I see coming up over and over in the forum.

And when we are dealing with families who have the "no talk/no emotion rule" it makes it nearly impossible to have any sort of meaningful exchange.

I'm glad you are coming to a deeper level of acceptance and understanding regarding your relatives' lack of interest.

You wrote: " I replied to an email recently with the same superficiality that they show to me. I hit send and felt a weight lift off me because at that moment I decided I no longer want or need anything from them at all."

Your answer may have felt superficial but that is in the context of the relationship, and not an underlying desire to "get certain needs met from these people who either don't want to or cannot meet them" for you.

I see that weight lifting off as a sign of great progress.  High five, Jennifer!

[justducky]

I just thought I'd pop in and say hi. I hope you all are doing well as can be these days!

I hope you're doing well too!

It is really sad and hard to grasp that making a connection beyond the most superficial level isn't possible, especially when we are relating with (or trying to relate) people who, in healthier circumstances, might naturally be open and curious in their communications with us.
...
And when we are dealing with families who have the "no talk/no emotion rule" it makes it nearly impossible to have any sort of meaningful exchange.

Wise words.

I've slowly come to realize that my immediate family is deeply mired in codependency. There's a lot of focus on solving problems and fixing things, but in a way that uses control and force rather than cooperation. There's little connection. This makes sense when uPD father was a bully who basically said no to everything. enMom enabled in part by making things work behind the scenes or in secret. Lots of avoidance, indirect communication, passive-aggression, and later sabotage.

My FOO essentially treats the symptoms but never the disease, so to speak. They put out fires rather than communicate directly and have healthy, flexible boundaries. It's really sad.

[Starboard Song]

There are two things that occasionally bother me:

1) Guilt for having accepted the gift.

2) I ask myself about the utility of this relationship.


Any thoughts on this? Similar experiences?

Yep. I got thoughts. We had a quite sudden crisis in our relationship with my in-laws. I accepted a final gift as the crisis hit. And over the coming 6 months we had a choice: we could fight our way back from Silent Treat to MC or LC relationship, or we could accept their rejection and go NC. We ultimately attempted LC with boundaries, and failed into NC. That was seven years ago.

Gifts are one-time, non-reciprocal events. While there is an etiquette that one thank a person in writing subsequent to receipt, it is only etiquette, not morality. And I think there is never a moral obligation to reject a genuine gift. You may accept any genuine gift with a clear conscience. The gift we accepted was monetary: just enough for me to buy coordinating pendants for my wife and I. Hers said "Not My Circus." Mine said "Not My Monkeys."

I think there is often a LOT of value in maintaining MC or even VLC relationships. When it is family, I think that is flatly preferable to NC when it possible. NC is fighting words: it creates its own problems that ripple out over the years, and infect every wedding, every funeral, every family gathering, every will, after that. So while a MC or VLC relationship seems unfulfilling, it at least isn't warfare. It is often the best available option. We choose NC when we are unable to reliably maintain our peace so that we can thrive. When people are too destructive of our peace, we have to accept that the loss is already there, already baked in, and go to NC.

ymmv

[bee well]

Hi Starship Song,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I'm sorry it came to that with your Inlaws, but it is encouraging to see couple presenting a united front and doing what it takes to preserve their well-being. I think it's good that you tried the boundaries first--I'm sure that helped you to come to a clear and well-thought out decision. Not surprising the boundaries didn't go over very well, in any case.

Can you tell me where to get those pendants? That is genius :=)) :=)

I've determined VLC is as far as I will get with the family who gave me the gift. I don't think a meaningful relationship is possible but NC isn't necessary at this point. It's possible things will just fade off into the distance (not much there to fade, anyway). I'm already in NC with most of my family, have processed a lot of that, and don't intend on going back.

What you wrote here was really helpful:
"I think there is never a moral obligation to reject a genuine gift. You may accept any genuine gift with a clear conscience." I had never thought of it like that.

What it comes down to is that people don't have the right to hold others hostage, emotionally or otherwise, because they helped or gave a gift.  And on the other side of that, it isn't healthy to feel beholden to someone, for the fact that one has accepted a gift. If a gift comes with strings attached,the isn't a gift, it's part of a transaction.

it's still hard to break free of the old self guilting patterns (learning new ways of thinking, everyday).  FOG runs deep in my family and I suspect that's why the gift came in the first place.

Speaking of inlaws, my MIL continues her BS. Recently she started in about how DH was a terrible person because he made  _x____  decision without including her, "after all they had done for him."  Because she helped in a time of need  she now seems think  she has a right to a say in our decisions, including how we manage our household.  MIL also has been bad mouthing us and says the rest of the family also thinks we are horrible people (probably not the case but if so, it's a result of the smearing).

My theory is that we are now on MIL's "bad list" because we have stopped coddling her
.
Oddly, I don't feel guilty about MIL, and the help she has given us (actually DH, and me as a result) although at times I wish he hadn't accepted.   Maybe it's because she has directly been abusive to both of us. No guessing about any it, it's right out there....MIL rant over.....

Thanks, Just Ducky!
I'm doing far to middling here :=)

There is the codependency  in my FOO as well, and I have seen the people pleasing and bully dynamic.

The indirect communication keeps the family system in place, and it is sad that people can't sit down and have an honest conversation about even the simplest of things. My whole family is like that, on both sides, unfortunately. Tons of manipulation going on there.

You wrote: My FOO essentially treats the symptoms but never the disease, so to speak. They put out fires rather than communicate directly and have healthy, flexible boundaries. It's really sad." I couldn't have put it better.

On a semi-related note: as a recovering people pleaser I find one of the best (and most challenging) things about healing is learning to stand alone among people, and be okay with the fact that in  many cases it's not possible, or even safe or desirable in some cases, to have more than a superficial conversation. Certainly it's not possible to be liked by everyone.

I think that why it's important to be discerning about when and with whom we can share. Ah yes, then there's that too, discernment is another one of those things that was not taught in my  FOO...

[Starboard Song]

Can you tell me where to get those pendants? That is genius :=)) :=)

There are numerous Etsy stores that sell custom pendants.

We found a couple that were rectangles, about an inch long, that woul put anything on it you requested. So we did not my circus, not my monkeys in Polish:

Nie mój cyrk
Nie moje małpy